Project M Social Thread

[Vaerix]

Theory about kage: Ganon wasn't in MM.

About oli, i don't think changing the animations for every different pikmin is possible, but otherwise the idea sounds fantastic.

 

[Divinokage]

Theory about kage: Ganon wasn't in MM.

About oli, i don't think changing the animations for every different pikmin is possible, but otherwise the idea sounds fantastic.

That MIGHT be part of it.

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't care for Zelda 2 as an experience for the same reason I don't care for the original Zelda as an experience. While both games were groundbreaking and innovative in their own ways, like a lot of early open world games, they had a tremendous amount of difficulty telling me what I needed to do to progress, and so without a guide of any form, I would have to spend hours upon hours just kind of wandering until something happened.

And I'm not just talking about Navi Fi yelling in your ear every five seconds. There are good ways of telling a player what their goal is without making them feel patronized. Super Metroid did it best, IMO. Of the Zelda games I've played, LttP and LA had the best means of telling the player their goals without ramming them down your throat. TP and MM did alright too, but that's only because Midna and Tatl have actual character development going on to make you willing to put up with their tendency to state the obvious.

As far as overall experiences go, I think LttP, LA and MM are my top three, although not by a very large margin.

Edit: On the Olimar topic, I still like my Olimar suggestion better.

 

[AeonClock]

On the Olimar topic, I still like my Olimar suggestion better.

What is it? :0

 

[9Kplus1]

What is it? :0

Replace Olimar with Insanecarzyguy

 

[Mattnumbers]

Which translates into "replace Olimar with Pichu"

I like the Olimar ideas, but not the "More pikmin of a color=longer range" because I think it would be broken. Also I'd miss the SA on whistle, it added tech skill to the character imo. Also I should point out that as it is now, whistle doesn't only switch the active pikmin, but it puts the pikmin behind you into groups based on color.

 

[ph00tbag]

What is it? :0

[collapse="On line manipulation:"]I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you want to make Olimar work better, give the player more options to manipulate their line, and enhance discrepancies between each pikmin, giving each pikmin a definite strong suit, and a definite weakness. This way, you make it so that any pikmin can be defeated, but the line can be manipulated to mitigate that.

Don't slow down Pluck. He needs to be able to manipulate and strengthen his line quickly, otherwise he gets rushed down and killed for line manipulation or, even more ironically, trying to ensure he has a recovery if he's knocked offstage. Heck, ensuring he has a moveset becomes a major concession on his part. Furthermore, allow pluck to rotate a saturated line by one. This is distinct from Order, which puts the line in an order defined by an algorithm that is the same every match.

I've also seen an interesting idea of replacing Chain with a footstool off of a pikmin, killing the pikmin in the process. Making this a quick option would allow Olimar also to farm pikmin more effectively, granting him more control over his line.

Rather than make Olimar a boring, and possibly even bad, character, these ideas embrace the qualities that make him totally unique and interesting. They do more to encourage and facilitate line manipulation, but they also allow any of Olimar's opponents to alter their playstyle based on which pikmin is active at any time. This is the direction that ought to be sought with Olimar. Trying to do otherwise just displays ignorance of, or I suppose disaffection with, the qualities that make Olimar interesting, and that's not the attitude that should be driving Olimar's development.[/collapse]
[collapse="More concepts, and what functions Pikmin should serve:"]I kind of like the idea of Olimar being unable to footstool off other characters, but being able to footstool his pikmin, killing them in the process. That's also a nifty idea.

Another idea is to make it so pluck canceling can be done no matter how many pikmin there are in the line.

As far as what I'd like to see Olimar's pikmin used for:

White: All it's good for is tossing, no matter where you are. First hit on latch is absurd damage, but every other move barely does knockback, and does horrible damage. Pummel also does really high dps, but throwing doesn't really get you much. Lowest durability.

Red: The dps pikmin. Highest damage out of all pikmin on every move except for latch, where it is a distant second to white. Average kbg and slightly below average range. Most attacks pop opponents upward for starting and maintaining combos. This pikmin shouldn't really be killing. Dair and uair are drills, and last for most of a short hop. Second lowest durability.

Yellow: The zoning pikmin. By far the best range of all the pikmin, on all moves, but kbg and damage aren't so great. Knockback angle tends to be 45 degrees or below on most moves. Dair does not spike. Throws are a lot like Marth's, and can lead to good tech chase and combo options, though. Medium durability.

Blue: The flashy pikmin. Average range, and below average damage and knockback in most cases, but the moves have neat properties for cool tricks. Usmash and uair are meteors on grounded. Dsmash, fsmash and bair all have 0 degree knockback. Fair has -45 degree knockback. Dair is a meteor. This pikmin is good for gimps or for flashy combo starters. Throws are a mixed bag. Dthrow is forced grounding move. Second highest durability.

Purple: Ridiculous knockback. Worst range. Decent damage. Tossed purples still just do knockback rather than latching. Highest durability.[/collapse]
[collapse="On randomness:"]Whenever it comes to randomness, a lot of players have the "turnip threshold," whereby if a move is more random, and more difficult to adapt to, than Peach's turnips, then it is unacceptable randomness, and therefore bad design. I personally go by the Zappa threshold.

With Zappa, using one move literally gives you a random character out of a set of three possibilities: The long-ranged projectile zoning character who curses you with random attacking bananas if he hits you, the mid-ranged poking character, or the holy **** hyper aggressive infinite unblockable reset Eddie wannabe character. There's absolutely no indicator what kind of playstyle will need to be adopted until the summon is visible, and it drastically affects the way both players will approach the match. But the thing is, there's a brief split second where both the Zappa player and his/her opponent can see the summon on the screen and say, "okay, this is how I need to play."

Olimar as I've laid him out doesn't even come close to the Zappa threshold. Unless Olimar is respawning, he's usually not plucking close enough for the opponent to have no time to observe the pikmin coming out and then adapt. Not to mention even if they're close, pluck canceling (the only way to use a pikmin before your opponent can react to the type) carries with it a certain risk for Olimar if he's not able to confirm what pikmin he's getting, since if he pulls a purple and isn't spaced right, then he just gets punished. Basically, even though the pikmin that's about to be used drastically affects gameplay, it's something both players can observe and adapt to. It ultimately deepens the gameplay, because there's 7^6 possible lines that can appear, so it's super unlikely that a player will encounter all of them in their gameplay.[/collapse]

 

[AeonClock]

Yeah, the more "Pikmin, more range" thing was just an idea I was throwing out there to hopefully inspire some other ideas from other people. In reality, it would limit Olimar's combo ability if he wanted to use the same Pikmin type in rapid succession.
As for the super armor on whistle. I like it too. I love it in fact. But having super armor on the whistle would make the whole stance change idea broken since he would be able to do a stance change into a stance change. It would make him invincible to knockback at anytime he wanted.

.....Wait, scratch that. I just had an epiphany lol
If the super armor became active later in the whistle animation, akin to Marth's counter or so, Olimar would have a sort of pseudo-parry since he would be able to cancel into an aerial, smash, or special after taking a hit with the super armor.

Concepts

So essentially he would remain fairly close to his vBrawl self, but with adjustments to Pikmin attributes and greater control over his line? I like mine better ಠ_ಠ
Lol, but seriously, I see no problems with this style. My only issue with it is its lack of freedom. That's what kept me from maining Olimar in Brawl. Changing and monitoring your line in a Melee environment would be WORLDS different from what it was in Brawl, and even the best Olimar mains would find it extremely difficult to organize a their line the way they desire when getting pressured by a fox, ZSS, Marth, etc.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm pleasantly surprised by the amount of love for Zelda II in here. Good stuff, guys.

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't so much have an issue with your ideas on how specials allow Olimar to manipulate his line. I'm all for more freedom, although canceling with whistle is a bit much; his moves are already short enough that he doesn't really need to be cancelling any of them on hit.

I just don't care for the pikmin attributes you've outlined. For one thing, the "backwards hitboxes" idea never appealed to me. There's also the fact that most of the pikmin already have particular uses, and some of your ideas run counter to those uses. For instance, Yellows are already used for their extra disjointedness, Purples are already used for KO power, and whites are already used for warlock-type dps. There's not really a reason to change that.

 

[AeonClock]

I just don't care for the pikmin attributes you've outlined. For one thing, the "backwards hitboxes" idea never appealed to me. There's also the fact that most of the pikmin already have particular uses, and some of your ideas run counter to those uses. For instance, Yellows are already used for their extra disjointedness, Purples are already used for KO power, and whites are already used for warlock-type dps. There's not really a reason to change that.

I get you. To be honest though, the only Pikmin that would be changing are the white ones (the yellows would be good for their disjointedness and combo ability), and really, I like both the Brawl version and my version. That being said, your proposal for the blue Pikmin covers pretty much what I wanted the white Pikmin to do, and vice versa. Your idea for the blue Pikmin is much more thought out than simply reversing knockback, though, and I think it would work better overall. And as for the white Pikmin having pitiful knockback, I think they should have some semi-spike properties as well. Small KB and semi spike properties would make them extremely situational which would give them more depth as Pikmin in general.

Edit: As for the whistle canceling, I believe it adds depth to Olimar as a character. At first it sounds broken, but if you think about it, you'll realize it's not. I've set it up carefully so that Olimar wouldn't be able to pull off Lucario-like 0-death strings solely off of stance changes. Knockback prevents him from doing ridiculous triple fair combos and such, but allows him to pull off some other nifty things such as:

Fair with a yellow Pikmin -> change -> jump -> Dair with a purple for the kill

Uair with a blue Pikmin (which I agree should be a meteor) -> change -> dair with a yellow Pikmin (pops opponent bacck up) -> change -> Uair with a purple for the kill

Fair with a red Pikmin -> change -> throw a blue Pikmin and follow up from there.

Combos such as these wouldn't be simple and would require great awareness of your line and adequately fast fingers to pull off.

I'd also like to know what you think about Pikmin dying after they "complete their job" once thrown.

 

[9Kplus1]

Neko would make for a suitable replacement for Olimar, if stance changes are confirmed.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Repost of Mylimar, with important points noted for others making suggestions.

[collapse=Olimar]
All pikmin have the same amount of health. White and purple are plucked with same probability, which is lower than that of the other three, who also share probabilities amongst themselves. Elemental immunities are replaced with 25-50% damage reduction, and the elemental effects from hitting with a pikmin are removed (reds are immune to fire, not made of fire).
In general, reds deal high damage.
In general, yellows have high range. They are also Pikmin Thrown at a higher arc, and sweetspotting with the tip of their FSmash causes an explosion and is one of Olimar's most powerful moves.
In general, whites have less range on "holding" moves (tilts and aerials) and more on "throwing" moves (smashes, Side-B, grab), and attacks with them are faster. When killed, their ghost is a flinchless hitbox for ~5%. Also, for fun and if possible, when the amount of time Olimar is buried decreases by some percentage for each white near him.
In general, purples have low range and slow attacks, but high damage and knockback. Like Brawl, they're the only ones to cause knockback, rather than latch on, for Side-B. They also have the best throws, and tipping with FSmash causes paralysis akin to Zamus's.
Blues don't have any specific general advantage, though they're far from useless. Rather, their use is entirely on a move-by-move basis, and dependent of circumstance. I also like the idea that their Dair is a true spike. Also, as if it matters, they don't drown in water. For a bit more flavor, and if possible, they could also extend the time Olimar can swim, and/or keep one other pikmin from drowning (so 3 blues = no drowning).

Important
I say "in general" because each move should be a different case. It shouldn't be a game of "this pikmin's for combos, this for kills, and that for gimps." Each color should have its individual properties, but not so much that it just becomes a big stereotype (much like the pikmin themselves aren't just stereotyped "fire," "water," "electric," etc., but are unique creatures with varied abilities). Any pikmin can be used to do any thing, and it's viable to use it with any particular attack; maybe it's theoretically less effective than another, but good enough for when that other's not on hand and until it can be plucked, and it's always situational.

I disagree with pikmin not switching after every attack. I think that could lead to a similar problem as Red had, where one pikmin color is just better than the others, or people just end up maining a single color. If maining a single color is an inviable tactic, then switching pikmin will be even more forced on players than if it was literally forced, since the later is counteractable, and the whole mechanic would become even more gimmicky (using Umbreon's definition). And if those pitfalls are avoided, then the purpose of having multiples of the same color is defeated.
It's not like what pikmin is used is random, you know well ahead of time. You're given six times the amount of foreknowledge as in the game Tetris, and you can't say that's not competitive. If given a better way to manage the line (something that can be done between hits) and kill unwanted pikmin (:evillaugh, no one could ever say he's not in complete control.
Olimar should be like an extension of Smash's own mechanics. Things like damage staling, knockback changing from opponent's weight and damage and DI, the variety of nonuniform stages that make positioning a big factor, and the large amount mobility, all interrupt the memorized, cookie-cutter combos of traditional fighters; yet all these variables will fall within a known range that can be predicted and accounted for, leading to spontaneous combos dependent on player knowledge of those variables, their moves' properties, and the game's mechanics (IMO, this is all for the better). Olimar should be just like that, with combos dependent on what pikmin he happens to have on hand and how inventive he is, leading to 5^6=15,625 times the possibilities of a normal character. Smash requires more brainpower than a traditional fighting game, and Olimar more than a traditional Smash character.
Not switching would really make him no different than any other character. Players wouldn't have learn the properties and possibilities and limitations of each color-move combination, they wouldn't have to pay attention to or manage the line so they have the right one when they want it, they wouldn't have to use his idiosyncrasies at all. They'd just use the pikmin in their predefined roles, and play like a normal character.
This goes back to the "in general" deal: Olimar needs to have options regardless of which color is up next, yet these options should also depend on the color. Thus, the exact values of damage, shield damage, BKB, KBG, angle, range, startup, end-lag, duration, sweetspot location/existence, multi- or single-hit, and everything for each color-move combination should be created independently, without following a specific pattern, but tending toward a general chromatic trend. That is the key point that makes the blues not useless, as well as the other colors not completely useless in aspects that are not their defined strength. Thus the Olimar player would actually have to know what he is doing, rather than just look at the color and be told what to do.
At the least, they should switch after all "throwing" attacks.
/Important

I also agree with an idea from Smashboards:

make all his pikmin moves flash the color of the next available pikmin.

Also, sex kick. His vBrawl Nair looks ridiculous, and a sex kick would help ground him as Melee-esque, even with whatever unique mechanic he may end up with.
[/collapse]

[collapse=A bit of negativity. Avert your eyen, ye of gentel disposition.]
AeonClock in particular, you mention "working with what you have," then give every ability to only use one or two colors and every incentive to do so.
Depending on the particulars, no one would ever need more than yellow and/or purple. There just aren't enough tasks in Smash to give each color a unique one and make each worth having around. Even if there were then there would never be a point to having any color other than the one for job you're currently performing, leading just as little strategy or variety as the alternative.
Immortal pikmin means, once you've got a matching 6, you'll never worry about losing them, or using anything else.
You give a quick way to eliminate pikmin, that even has the secondary effect of hurting the opponent, so you're not even put at a disadvantageous position in your quest for the good stuff. Seriously, where did you even get the idea of pikmin both not latching, and dieing on contact?
And the last thing is the worst part, sextupling Olimar's range as a bonus for using him what is apparently correctly? I mean, it'd be a pretty cool idea in Minus, if the monochromacy weren't a factor, but not here.
Overall, players would never "work with what they have," they'd just grind for what they need.
And it's not just you, but people seem to have gone crazy with Magic Series since Lucaryu was revealed, despite them not existing at all in Melee, or Smash (other than some vaguely similar abilities). The point was to make him a new, unique, interesting character, and making everything cancellable on-hit ruins that, as well as the project goal.

And why do people assign pikmin properties so randomly?[/collapse]

 

[AeonClock]

Repost of Mylimar, with important points noted for others making suggestions.

[collapse=Olimar]
All pikmin have the same amount of health. White and purple are plucked with same probability, which is lower than that of the other three, who also share probabilities amongst themselves. Elemental immunities are replaced with 25-50% damage reduction, and the elemental effects from hitting with a pikmin are removed (reds are immune to fire, not made of fire).
In general, reds deal high damage.
In general, yellows have high range. They are also Pikmin Thrown at a higher arc, and sweetspotting with the tip of their FSmash causes an explosion and is one of Olimar's most powerful moves.
In general, whites have less range on "holding" moves (tilts and aerials) and more on "throwing" moves (smashes, Side-B, grab), and attacks with them are faster. When killed, their ghost is a flinchless hitbox for ~5%. Also, for fun and if possible, when the amount of time Olimar is buried decreases by some percentage for each white near him.
In general, purples have low range and slow attacks, but high damage and knockback. Like Brawl, they're the only ones to cause knockback, rather than latch on, for Side-B. They also have the best throws, and tipping with FSmash causes paralysis akin to Zamus's.
Blues don't have any specific general advantage, though they're far from useless. Rather, their use is entirely on a move-by-move basis, and dependent of circumstance. I also like the idea that their Dair is a true spike. Also, as if it matters, they don't drown in water. For a bit more flavor, and if possible, they could also extend the time Olimar can swim, and/or keep one other pikmin from drowning (so 3 blues = no drowning).

Important
I say "in general" because each move should be a different case. It shouldn't be a game of "this pikmin's for combos, this for kills, and that for gimps." Each color should have its individual properties, but not so much that it just becomes a big stereotype (much like the pikmin themselves aren't just stereotyped "fire," "water," "electric," etc., but are unique creatures with varied abilities). Any pikmin can be used to do any thing, and it's viable to use it with any particular attack; maybe it's theoretically less effective than another, but good enough for when that other's not on hand and until it can be plucked, and it's always situational.

I disagree with pikmin not switching after every attack. I think that could lead to a similar problem as Red had, where one pikmin color is just better than the others, or people just end up maining a single color. If maining a single color is an inviable tactic, then switching pikmin will be even more forced on players than if it was literally forced, since the later is counteractable, and the whole mechanic would become even more gimmicky (using Umbreon's definition). And if those pitfalls are avoided, then the purpose of having multiples of the same color is defeated.
It's not like what pikmin is used is random, you know well ahead of time. You're given six times the amount of foreknowledge as in the game Tetris, and you can't say that's not competitive. If given a better way to manage the line (something that can be done between hits) and kill unwanted pikmin (:evillaugh, no one could ever say he's not in complete control.
Olimar should be like an extension of Smash's own mechanics. Things like damage staling, knockback changing from opponent's weight and damage and DI, the variety of nonuniform stages that make positioning a big factor, and the large amount mobility, all interrupt the memorized, cookie-cutter combos of traditional fighters; yet all these variables will fall within a known range that can be predicted and accounted for, leading to spontaneous combos dependent on player knowledge of those variables, their moves' properties, and the game's mechanics (IMO, this is all for the better). Olimar should be just like that, with combos dependent on what pikmin he happens to have on hand and how inventive he is, leading to 5^6=15,625 times the possibilities of a normal character. Smash requires more brainpower than a traditional fighting game, and Olimar more than a traditional Smash character.
Not switching would really make him no different than any other character. Players wouldn't have learn the properties and possibilities and limitations of each color-move combination, they wouldn't have to pay attention to or manage the line so they have the right one when they want it, they wouldn't have to use his idiosyncrasies at all. They'd just use the pikmin in their predefined roles, and play like a normal character.
This goes back to the "in general" deal: Olimar needs to have options regardless of which color is up next, yet these options should also depend on the color. Thus, the exact values of damage, shield damage, BKB, KBG, angle, range, startup, end-lag, duration, sweetspot location/existence, multi- or single-hit, and everything for each color-move combination should be created independently, without following a specific pattern, but tending toward a general chromatic trend. That is the key point that makes the blues not useless, as well as the other colors not completely useless in aspects that are not their defined strength. Thus the Olimar player would actually have to know what he is doing, rather than just look at the color and be told what to do.
At the least, they should switch after all "throwing" attacks.
/Important

I also agree with an idea from Smashboards:


Also, sex kick. His vBrawl Nair looks ridiculous, and a sex kick would help ground him as Melee-esque, even with whatever unique mechanic he may end up with.
[/collapse]

[collapse=A bit of negativity. Avert your eyen, ye of gentel disposition.]
AeonClock in particular, you mention "working with what you have," then give every ability to only use one or two colors and every incentive to do so.
Depending on the particulars, no one would ever need more than yellow and/or purple. There just aren't enough tasks in Smash to give each color a unique one and make each worth having around. Even if there were then there would never be a point to having any color other than the one for job you're currently performing, leading just as little strategy or variety as the alternative.
Immortal pikmin means, once you've got a matching 6, you'll never worry about losing them, or using anything else.
You give a quick way to eliminate pikmin, that even has the secondary effect of hurting the opponent, so you're not even put at a disadvantageous position in your quest for the good stuff. Seriously, where did you even get the idea of pikmin both not latching, and dieing on contact?
And the last thing is the worst part, sextupling Olimar's range as a bonus for using him what is apparently correctly? I mean, it'd be a pretty cool idea in Minus, if the monochromacy weren't a factor, but not here.
Overall, players would never "work with what they have," they'd just grind for what they need.
And it's not just you, but people seem to have gone crazy with Magic Series since Lucaryu was revealed, despite them not existing at all in Melee, or Smash (other than some vaguely similar abilities). The point was to make him a new, unique, interesting character, and making everything cancellable on-hit ruins that, as well as the project goal.

And why do people assign pikmin properties so randomly?[/collapse]

*sigh* It seems some people miss the point of brainstorming. I'm not saying there's a single direction to take Olimar. I'm not saying that what I've outlined is how Olimar should be. I'm simply throwing ideas out there and hoping to get feedback on them. I would suggest reading the entire conversation before criticizing anything (if you did,you'd notice that I rethought the immortal Pikmin idea). Some key points you addressed (sextupling Olimar's range) were discussed in replies to my post.

You also failed to noticed that I asked for feedback on Pikmin dieing after they're thrown after I first proposed it. After pondering it, I don't think it's a good idea. Neither is them not latching on. I realized that after I read some of Ph00tbag's input. And on the topic of "Assigning Pikmin attributes randomly", there's nothing random about what I assigned.

You said, "Players wouldn't have learn the properties and possibilities and limitations of each color-move combination, they wouldn't have to pay attention to or manage the line so they have the right one when they want it, they wouldn't have to use his idiosyncrasies at all." when that's EXACTLY what assigning Pikmin certain attributes would mean. The only Pikmin that would do things different from normal are the blue ones. Olimar would NOT become a completely different character depending on what Pikmin he currently has out, as you seem to be implying. He would merely have slightly different properties on his attacks. Take fair for example. Fair knocks opponents away from Olimar. We all know this. But the thing changing would be HOW it hits the opponent away from Olimar. Let's compare the fairs of different Pikmin:

Red: Average distance away.
Yellow: Slightly more vertical KB to facilitate combos.
Blue: Would be on a move by move basis. May do something other than simple knock opponents forward. For example it might knock them straight up.
White: Weaker than red. Not much KB. May semi-spike.
Purple: High knockback.

You seem to forget ALL of Olimar's attacks in vBrawl had varying knockback depending on the Pikmin he used. So as you can see, I'm confused as to what you mean by assigning them random properties. You're simply taking the roles too literally. Like you said, Pikmin should GENERALLY be better at some things than the other Pikmin. Purples would GENERALLY be better at killing and yellows would GENERALLY be better at comboing.

And lastly you would know that everything wouldn't be cancelable on hit if you properly read and analyzed my post. In fact, even making jabs and tilts cancelable was a bit excessive on my part. I made sure that Olimar would only be able to string aerials and use specials after aerials through the stance change.

Instead of immediately taking offense and banging out a response that shows you've clearly failed to analyze ANYTHING I, or any other poster for that matter, have posted, you should take some time to analyze what you're reading.

Now that my rant is over, can you better explain why Pikmin not switching after an attack is inferior to them switching? That post is and doesn't apply to my system as you wouldn't be able to PICK which Pikmin you switch to, you would go to the next one in line each change. I'm trying to understand what you mean, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. Knowing what Pikmin you have and what order they're in is just as important if Olimar were to control his switch as it is if his line rotated automatically.

 

[9Kplus1]

And why do people assign pikmin properties so randomly?

"Randomly"?

Peach can pull turnips with varying properties from her cooch. Those weren't assigned randomly?

 

[drsusredfish]

this whole olimar convo has been a bunch of blah blah blah in my eyes. everything is a wall of text

 

[AeonClock]

Well then stfu because no one likes you ಠ_ಠ

TL;DR Olimar changes Pikmin and tears **** up. He also impregnates multiple women on a daily basis.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

As long as olimar isn't a run and tag ***** I'll be happy The amount of DoT he could lay on in brawl/B+ was just too darn sickening. well at least thats my opinion.

 

[AeonClock]

Well I could care less whether he stays as he was in vBrawl or actually adopts another style. As long as he stays true to what made him such an interesting character (using his different Pikmin in different situations) I'll be happy.

 

[Cubelarooso]

*sigh*You ask for feedback, then when I give feedback, you accuse me of not reading and that you just want feedback.

Just because I don't mention that you rethought an idea does not mean I did not read the rethought. The very fact that I mentioned the idea should indicate that I did read your rethinking, and am agreeing with it.

I don't see how the "effects of the different Pikimin should be given even more importance" or "Blue: The semi-spike Pikmin." translates into "slightly different properties," but that wasn't even directed at you. It was a general statement, made a month ago, to anyone who suggests intense and formulaic attributes to differentiate colors.

I wasn't talking about vBrawl, so I don't see how you could infer that I forget pikmin's propeties there. Again, I was talking about most ideas I've seen here and at SmashMods, which consist of "use purple to kill, use white to projectile, use boost to get through, etc." Which does not make for an interesting character.

Your attributes are very random (though again it's not just you). Just about the only thing that makes any sense is purples being used for KO. Everything else is baseless, or even contradictory. As for turnips, I'm not one to defend Sakurai's design decisions, but they just about all do the same thing, other than stitchface.

And you would know I never said you said everything wouldn't be cancelable on hit if you properly read and analyzed my post. I said that people-in-general were suggesting (hyperbolically) everything be cancelable on hit, when in fact maybe a couple (at most) non-Lucaryu attacks should be (IMO).

You accuse me of being offended, as your first response to me. No, I'm not. I try to include humor in all my posts to keep things light and civil, and marked off my negative feedback so that you wouldn't have to see it if you were going to take it so seriously. And I still ain't mad. And I don't want you to be.
None of what I said was immediate, but has all been ruminating for between 6 hours and several months. This post itself has taken an hour and a half to develop.


First, the fact that, under your system, you could cancel whistle into whistle (as you specifically spelled out), means you CAN pick the exact pikmin you want, more so than under in vBrawl. And it's pretty easy in vBrawl.

Second, the Olimar player would never have to know any of the pikmin he has or their order, other than the lead. Because he wouldn't have to use any of them, nor really be any better off doing so. Your system is better than others, since he can switch manually within combos, but I still don't think the pikmin can be created in such a way that it would be utilized very much (not even if there were no any definite roles whatsoever). Just to hit a few times with yellow, then end with purple for kill or blue for gimp. Or just as a speed-up after getting all one color. Plus the whistling would get annoying.

Could you clarify as to where you believe I'm contradicting myself?


Maybe you should learn the point of brainstorming. It's not to respond to feedback with accusations of offense and illiteracy, but to discuss the actual ideas. I just spent way more time in this response discussing what was and wasn't said than I did on actually saying or hearing anything new.
Until we stray off topic. And to never actually get anywhere since this is all theory, and none of really know what's possible to code.

 

[9Kplus1]

Are there any plans to make any large changes to DDD's current playstyle?

Also, could you guys change Sheik's gender to female, or perhaps just make her a transvestite? The current build shows off too much of Sheik's masculinity, which undoubtedly ruins Zelda's unrivaled femininity and beauty.

 

[Giygacoal]

Also, could you guys change Sheik's gender to female, or perhaps just make her a transvestite? The current build shows off too much of Sheik's masculinity, which undoubtedly ruins Zelda's unrivaled femininity and beauty.

Isn't that the point of a disguise?

Besides, Zelda's femininity is in fact rivaled by Ivysaur.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Isn't sheiks slap proof enough of her feminity.

 

[9Kplus1]

Sheik's "slap" is better known in the streets as "The Pimp Hand" -- a technique commonly used by male pimps, usually for the purpose of punishing a disobedient (or thought to be) ho(s). You obviously are not aware of Sheik's masculine traits, especially considering that his breakdancing and groping contribute largely to his success.

Oh, AND IVYSAUR IS NOT A MOTHER****ING ****-PUSHING GIRL, or anything close to one.

 

[AeonClock]

I could write an extensive response with involving theory-Smash and the like, but I'm tired and I have homework to do ._____.

Sorry if I came off as abrasive, but to me, you came off the same way. A simple, "You're right, that's not a good idea because blah" would suffice instead of, "Where did you even come up with blah blah blah". But I understand now that you meant no harm by it.

But I see only one big issue here with the whole switching vs. not switching thing. I'll contradict myself here: Pikmin in my system WOULD have specific uses, because without those uses, there would be no point in switching in the first place. But at the same time it's no different than the specific uses they have already. Mine are just more specified.

You say all one would need is a yellow and a purple to do the job. This is NOT the case. Reds and whites rack up damage. Reds being physical and white projectile. Blues can kill in certain situations, making them good to have at all times though situational. Yellows can combo at high percents and Purples kill. I don't see what makes this different from having Pikmin switch automatically. No matter what, you're still going to use whites for projectile damage, blues situationally (which is also in your build), reds to rack up physical damage and purples to kill. With my system, you just have more control over when and how you use those Pikmin.

As for not needing to know the order of the Pikmin on my system, that's simply false. Knowing the order of Pikmin would be essential to knowing how many times you need to switch to do what you want to do. For example if you fair an opponent with a yellow Pikmin and switch the wrong number of times, you might end up missing a kill opportunity because you switched to a red instead of a purple.

Edit: Also, don't be hatin' on she-man Zelda. Sometimes she even looks like she has breastesses. She's just androgynous.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

Edit: Also, don't be hatin' on she-man Zelda. Sometimes she even looks like she has breastesses. She's just androgynous.

Either that or use lol one of those ridiculous replacements from KC-MM lol.

 

[9Kplus1]

"Perfect Sheik" makes Sheilda look like a ****ing *****. Plus, fishnet tights are a huge turnoff =/

"DD Sheik", on the other hand, is definitely something worth squeezing into the next release of Project:M. It would be crime not tell the heavy abundance of followers of the truth behind Sheik.

 

[iLink]

Why do I feel like Im the only one that can accept that we really just cant be sure and not claim for or against like its a fact.

Ivysaur on the otherhand. Ive played the game in japanese for the longest time and its hard for me to not think its a girl.

 

[Kink-Link5]

While Olimar essays are being submitted,

[collapse="Olimar Synthesis"]
Making it possible to pluck specific pikmin is extremely hard to code and it's been looked into.


My ideas, with credit to GH:V and some other guy who was in the podcast

1: Reduce Olimar's Pikmin count to 3.
2: Increase the health of all Pikmin by [VALUE]
3: Have Pikmin not switch place after attacks. If you have Red, Blue, Purple, and use fair, the red Pikmin simply returns to his place for use again. Side B would still act like vBrawl for obvious reasons
4: Have Down-B change the Pikmin order, speed up the move, and remove the super armour on it
5: New F-smash- Pikmin "bat" swing
6: Differentiate Pikmin more, don't make them homogenized*1
7: Cause Side-B Pikmin Toss to cause knockback when most*2 pikmin hit, as well as attach*2 afterward for additional no knockback hits
8: Slow down Pikmin Pluck to [VALUE] frames
9: "New" up-B. Olimar chains his Pikmin up, then pulls along them, ala IC's. Afterward he can press Up-B again to use his vBrawl tether. If the first use of the move is within tether reach, it will also do so.

*1: Red Pikmin: Medium BKB, Medium KBG, Medium-High Damage, Medium Angle
Yellow Pikmin: Medium BKB, Medium-High KBG, Medium Damage, High Angle
Blue Pikmin: Low BKB, Medium KBG, Medium Damage, Low angle
Purple Pikmin: High BKB, Low KBG, High damage, Medium Angle
White Pikmin: Low BKB, Medium KBG, Very High Damage, Medium Angle

*2: Red Pikmin: Knockback and Attach
Yellow Pikmin: Knockback and Attach
Blue Pikmin: Knockback, does not Attach, and hits at a low angle
Purple Pikmin: Knockback, does not Attach, and has good knockback
White Pikmin: Does not Knockback, but Attaches and does high damage
[/collapse]

Also, my favourite Zeldas are MM, WW, and ALttP. My least favourites are SS, OoT, and PH.

 

[9Kplus1]

Why do I feel like Im the only one that can accept that we really just cant be sure and not claim for or against like its a fact.

You have not seen Sheik nude. I, at least, have had the dishonor is seeing Sheik in casual attire, which, for Hylian women, is very close to nudity.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I'm glad we have an understanding. I can see how the part you mentioned is rough, but it just seemed to come out of nowhere.
In my system, the pikmin have particular traits, but not necessarily specific uses. What color one uses would be more determined by how much time one has (often none, so just improvise) to switch to the (personally determined) ideal one for the situation, out of the ones currently available. I think it would be more fluid and strategic than most other systems.

And if I may say so,

Until we stray off topic.

My view is: Sheik is a meta-character created by Zelda. Zelda designed that character to be male. Whether or not Zelda assumes a male body while disguised as Sheik has never been confirmed, but doesn't matter. Sheik himself is male.

 

[AeonClock]

I just think Sheik is a she because I don't think Zelda would enjoy having a ****. Just saying.

 

[Cubelarooso]

What? Who wouldn't enjoy having a ****?

 

[Kink-Link5]

That sounded a lot more homosexual than you probably wanted it to.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Don't tell me how homosexual I want to sound!

She harbors the Triforce of Wisdom; she should know.

 

[9Kplus1]

Gay tendencies, phrases and porn are an excellent opportunity to learn something new, even if you're heterosexual. I'm pretty sure that Cubelarooso simply wanted to experiment out of his comfort zone. Doing so would entice a negative response from the homophobes on the boards, which will ultimately result in a bettering of Cubelarooso's social skills.

 

[AeonClock]

I'm pretty sure that sounded just as homosexual as he wanted it to ._.
But anyway, if I was a chick, I wouldn't want to transform into a dude. Why? Dudes have balls. Balls can be kicked. It hurts. If I were her, I'd much rather go the Ken doll route and have no genitals what so ever. All they do is complicate things.

 

[drsusredfish]

9K+1 are you a back room member now?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm pretty sure that sounded just as homosexual as he wanted it to ._.
But anyway, if I was a chick, I wouldn't want to transform into a dude. Why? Dudes have balls. Balls can be kicked. It hurts. If I were her, I'd much rather go the Ken doll route and have no genitals what so ever. All they do is complicate things.

>Implying female genitalia aren't just as sensitive as male ones.

 

[MonkUnit]

Let's just drop this discussion.

Back to Olimar ideas?