Project M Social Thread

[JCaesar]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jcaesar-brawl

Streaming again, just Bandit and me. Should have better sound.

 

[crush]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jcaesar-brawl

Streaming again, just Bandit and me. Should have better sound.

omg just what i wanted to see :D

 

[SuperHappyCow]

Melee's ledge occupancy may be nonsensical with some of the longer animations, but Brawl's near-nonexistant occupancy makes some characters practically impossible to edgehog, since you'd get hit by their recovery if you stay on the ledge, but they will grab the ledge the instant you let go. It should be somewhere closer to Melee style, but toned down to make more visual sense. It needs to be fixed from its current state though.

I don't understand why it is necessary to attempt to replicate anything more than the combat, speed, and competitiveness in Melee. Attempting to replicate the facets of it that were detrimental to the player interaction is a bit pointless and arbitrary. By that token, is the PM team going to bring back phantom hits?

No I was saying using brawl ledge occupancy over melees is not going to make players confront each other more when edgeguarding, it will do the exact opposite, making the game slower and boring.

Erm, not necessarily. That's even counter intuitive, since edge hogging is not confrontational, but rather exploitational.

Also, I played melee a ton against people who would have mutual agreements with me to not grab the edges to prevent one another from grabbing onto it, and the result was far more fights off of the ledge that decided rounds just as fast.

 

[crush]

Erm, not necessarily. That's even counter intuitive, since edge hogging is not confrontational, but rather exploitational.

Also, I played melee a ton against people who would have mutual agreements with me to not grab the edges to prevent one another from grabbing onto it, and the result was far more fights off of the ledge that decided rounds just as fast.

going off the ledge against the majority of characters in PM to edgeguard them is going to get you gimped most of the time... obviously if im playing fox or something against a character that relies heavily on sweetspotting the ledge im not going to jump off and try to shine them or nair or something stupid while theyre recovering because they have a ton of ways to gimp me

 

[SuperHappyCow]

Well, you see, there's this thing called risk, another called reward, and yet another called consequences...

 

[crush]

Well, you see, there's this thing called risk, another called reward, and yet another called consequences...

against most characters going off the ledge is going to get you gimped 90% of the time. if im playing peach against a marth instead of throwing turnips then turnip dropping and edgehogging like i would in melee im just going to let him on the ledge while i sit there throwing turnips. the lack of ledge occupancy is not going to make me confront the other player more at all unless i want to get myself killed

 

[nube]

mutual agreements to not grab the edges to prevent one another from grabbing onto it

never played competitive melee i guess :/

Coders: Where do you ppl get the time to do all this..how many hours/day or hours/week do yall spend working on hacks on average?

 

[SuperHappyCow]

never played competitive melee i guess :/

That...doesn't make sense.

"When I drive to work I like to take local roads"
"NEVER DROVE ON A HIGHWAY I GUESS"

In any case, it was competitive, but not official tourneys.

against most characters going off the ledge is going to get you gimped 90% of the time. if im playing peach against a marth instead of throwing turnips then turnip dropping and edgehogging like i would in melee im just going to let him on the ledge while i sit there throwing turnips. the lack of ledge occupancy is not going to make me confront the other player more at all unless i want to get myself killed

I used to play Mario against a Samus who was damn near a master, at least. He would hog ledges, while I opted for fighting him off the ledges, using techs, back airs, and my recovery attack to gain an edge.

It's not as simple as Marth vs Peach. Just because the dynamics change for a specific pair doesn't mean it changes in the same way for every matchable pair.

 

[Comeback Kid]

You seem to be going completely into left field all by yourself there Super Cow. I don't think anyone else suggested that ledge grabbing to remove options from your opponent's approach wasn't a VITAL part of what makes smash, smash.

The question is one only of degree here with fine tuning, not of relevance.

 

[SuperHappyCow]

You seem to be going completely into left field all by yourself there Super Cow. I don't think anyone else suggested that ledge grabbing to remove options from your opponent's approach wasn't a VITAL part of what makes smash, smash

That last sentence is confusing because of the "else" and the "wasn't." The way you wrote that suggests that I had said that. I'm arguing against edge hogging as a legitimate tactic.

The question is one only of degree here with fine tuning, not of relevance.

I still see it used where the invincibility after a grab lasts way too long, and becomes abused.

Maybe the invincibility should be kept though lowered, while the time you cannot grab a ledge after someone leaves should be set to the absolute minimum.

That way, grabbing ledges serves the purpose of allowing recovery, while the invincibility frames prevent instant repercussion.

 

[jalued]

I dont' want to really get into this debate, but anyway...

The ledge grab roll up is an important part of many melee matchups, and is vital to the balance of the top tiers. Without it being added into PM (if it's eventually possibly ofc), many melee players will be put off.

But the team hasnt found anything yet, so this is all pointless discussion. I'm sure the mods all understand and realise the importance of this y"yet to be found code", so lets just leave it at that and patiently wait for the patch

 

[crush]

I used to play Mario against a Samus who was damn near a master, at least. He would hog ledges, while I opted for fighting him off the ledges, using techs, back airs, and my recovery attack to gain an edge.

It's not as simple as Marth vs Peach. Just because the dynamics change for a specific pair doesn't mean it changes in the same way for every matchable pair.

what was the samuses name??? because seeing as how you kept saying that you had played a lot of really great players but didnt know their names makes me feel like you havent really played all that many great players.

as for everything else you said that i quoted i have no idea what youre talking about lol are you saying you jumped off the edge to edgeguard him when he was recovering? if so you should tell him to learn how to bomb jump and shoot missiles and grapple

 

[SuperHappyCow]

The ledge grab roll up is an important part of many melee matchups, and is vital to the balance of the top tiers. Without it being added into PM (if it's eventually possibly ofc), many melee players will be put off.

I say screw em. Quiting a game because an obvious exploit was removed, is kind of stupid. But then, I never did play super competitively in tourneys, so maybe I'm wrong after all.

what was the samuses name??? because seeing as how you kept saying that you had played a lot of really great players but didnt know their names makes me feel like you havent really played all that many great players.

as for everything else you said that i quoted i have no idea what youre talking about lol are you saying you jumped off the edge to edgeguard him when he was recovering? if so you should tell him to learn how to bomb jump and shoot missiles and grapple

A lot? Whoa! I never claimed that. It was a relative few, and I don't remember the aliases of any skilled players I played, tbh, since I played them 3.5-4 years ago(last time I played Melee).

Bombs, I destroyed them with cascading fireballs. Grapple, I'd WD off the ledge and up b to cause a stage spike, even on battlefield. Occasionally I'd B-air, but that was super risky. Missles I just caped, unless he was charged, then I'd dodge and cape.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I don't understand why it is necessary to attempt to replicate anything more than the combat, speed, and competitiveness in Melee. Attempting to replicate the facets of it that were detrimental to the player interaction is a bit pointless and arbitrary. By that token, is the PM team going to bring back phantom hits?

That's not even what I said. You're being hostile for no reason. I specifically said that it shouldn't be the same as Melee. All I said was that it needs to be fixed from the Brawl way, because that way is ineffective and doesn't even serve its intended function. But you are getting super defensive about the Brawl mechanics in the same way that you're (falsely) accusing people of being about the Melee mechanics.

 

[SuperHappyCow]

That's not even what I said. You're being hostile for no reason. I specifically said that it shouldn't be the same as Melee. All I said was that it needs to be fixed from the Brawl way, because that way is ineffective and doesn't even serve its intended function. But you are getting super defensive about the Brawl mechanics in the same way that you're (falsely) accusing people of being about the Melee mechanics.

I wasn't countering anything your said, or trying to be hostile, just expressing an idea. <3

The horse's insides are pouring out by now. I think I'll leave it alone. *tosses oversized spiked 2x4*

 

[Strong Badam]

please stop responding to Crush lol

 

[Revven]

Coders: Where do you ppl get the time to do all this..how many hours/day or hours/week do yall spend working on hacks on average?

Now this isn't a question we get often enough.

Really, it varies from person to person. Most of us are either in college or have a job, shanus for instance has a job and works pretty much daily. He manages to get free time some days while at work, where he does manage to do a few things during that free time. Others are likely gone throughout most of the day and don't do anything until late afternoon early evening.

It's really sporadic, some days it could be a short time, others it could be hours. It really depends on what one of us wants to do that day. Part of the pace involves that this is a hobby of ours, something we do when we have the free time or motivation to do work on it. If there's some really awesome idea for a character most of the time a bunch of us get motivated and want to work on it right away and spend possibly most of the day or even a couple of days on that particular idea.

So this question isn't very easy to answer as it depends on the person.

 

[Sneak8288]

I say screw em. Quiting a game because an obvious exploit was removed, is kind of stupid. But then, I never did play super competitively in tourneys, so maybe I'm wrong after all.

Yea, your definitely wrong.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol exploit
you get bonus points at the end of the game for doing it.

 

[kaizo13]

lovin these flame wars

....side affect of going from hungry to starving

 

[SuperHappyCow]

lovin these flame wars

....side affect of going from hungry to starving

Whoa. Flame wars? It's just slightly less than friendly discussion. No one's dropped either f-bomb, or even the word "***" :X

Oh, auto censored. Hahah.

Yea--

Wait, so grabbing ledges serves the primary purpose of preventing other people from grabbing ledges? Or does it serve the purpose of allowing players to recover from a fall?

Ledge hogging is an exploit of the "1 purson per ledge" rule, as well as invincibility frames, hence it's an exploit. If it wasn't an exploit, by definition it would not be used for the purposes of something it was not intended or designed for, however that is not what makes it silly.

For instance, wave dashing is most definitely an exploit, but it's what keeps me, as well as very many people interested in PM, and not having it in Brawl was the ultimate deal breaker.

 

[GP&B]

The point is that realistically, neither game's ledge occupancy makes sense. You can grab way too soon in Brawl before the character has even really gotten up onto the ledge and you practically can't grab in Melee until a bit before the ledge roll animation is complete.

 

[JCaesar]

Whoa. Flame wars? It's just slightly less than friendly discussion. No one's dropped either f-bomb, or even the word "***" :X

Oh, auto censored. Hahah.



Wait, so grabbing ledges serves the primary purpose of preventing other people from grabbing ledges? Or does it serve the purpose of allowing players to recover from a fall?

Ledge hogging is an exploit of the "1 purson per ledge" rule, as well as invincibility frames, hence it's an exploit. If it wasn't an exploit, by definition it would not be used for the purposes of something it was not intended or designed for, however that is not what makes it silly.

For instance, wave dashing is most definitely an exploit, but it's what keeps me, as well as very many people interested in PM, and not having it in Brawl was the ultimate deal breaker.

Are you bringing developer intentions into this ...? Calling something an "exploit" is just semantics anyway. What does it matter?

 

[SuperHappyCow]

True, true.

 

[Ecks]

Realistically, the character would just grab the ledge beside the opponent, like Ice Climbers do. :D

Honestly, what keeps me away from Brawl isn't a lack of wave dash, since everyone should have known it was likely to be removed. The problem with Brawl is the massive physics and character playstyle change. I can barely play any Melee characters in Brawl at all. That's what renders Brawl unplayable.

Anyway, this ledge occupancy debate is not gonna go anywhere until it can be edited. Bring it up then.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Anyway, this ledge occupancy debate is not gonna go anywhere until it can be edited. Bring it up then.

Or don't, since the PMBR has already stated its intentions on what it plans to do once it becomes possible, and arguing isn't going to change their minds.

 

[Ecks]

I know, but at least they'd be complaining at something that can actually be changed.

BTW for those who don't know, the PMBR plans on having an in-between ledge occupancy. Hopefully no one will complain about how horrible it will somehow be.

 

[crush]

i think ledge occupancy should be 9001 frames (as in, when someone rolls onto the stage from the ledge that ledge cannot be grabbed for another 9001 frames)

 

[ClinkStryphart]

unfortunately there will be people who will complain of either its not melee exact or its not brawl exact.

I personally think an in-between LO would be good. Both games do have flaws with LO so an in-between would fix it.

Anywho lets drop the LO topic it seems the devs know what to do when the time comes.

btw JC awesome stream today.

 

[nawgui]

In an attempt to switch topics and also to give further depth and reasoning into an earlier suggestion, I think it would be a more suave and beneficial for Link's dtilt to be his crouching shield poke from 3D zelda games.

My original reasoning was that it would still have same properties but a little sped up to match the speed of the animation, and maybe some IASA frames (so acting more like Roy's Dtilt).

I feel that it would add great homage to Link, while proving beneficial, and also help discern him more from Toon Link as well.

 

[MonkUnit]

i think ledge occupancy should be 9001 frames (as in, when someone rolls onto the stage from the ledge that ledge cannot be grabbed for another 9001 frames)

lol not being able to grab the ledge again for another 2 hours+

 

[ClinkStryphart]

In an attempt to switch topics and also to give further depth and reasoning into an earlier suggestion, I think it would be a more suave and beneficial for Link's dtilt to be his crouching shield poke from 3D zelda games.

My original reasoning was that it would still have same properties but a little sped up to match the speed of the animation, and maybe some IASA frames (so acting more like Roy's Dtilt).

I feel that it would add great homage to Link, while proving beneficial, and also help discern him more from Toon Link as well.

So basically the crouching poke from like Zelda II? If so that would be cool.

 

[PeachEater74]

So the same thing his dtilt does now except it doesn't meteor smash? Sounds like a good idea.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

It would be cool but the meteor is sorta nice to have but then again idk where it stands in P:M but the last version of B+ the meteor only hit on the tip of the blade. If I read somewhere on here before didn't someone say that Roy has a Spike but its on the hilt. Idk how that would work for Link but I would be fine with either or. The spike would be nicer imho considering theres always the possibility of MC's (meteor Cancels). I wonder if you could move the spike or meteor effect to a different portion of the weapon.

Regardless though from Jc's stream earlier I still think Link looks fine as is. This would just make him better lol I would think.

 

[NeoZ]

As it was said in the last page, you get bonus point at the end of a stage for an edgehog, how is something not only recognized by the developers, but actually named and encouraged by them an exploit?

And stop crying about phantom hits, they're not a glitch.

 

[nawgui]

So basically the crouching poke from like Zelda II? If so that would be cool.

Yeah, im not sure if there is much difference between that and the one from the N64 zelda's but yeah same thing haha

 

[UltiMario]

lol not being able to grab the ledge again for another 2 hours+

60 frames a second....
60 seconds in a minute.

I think you mean for another 2 and a half minutes.

 

[Spoon~]

60 frames a second....
60 seconds in a minute.

I think you mean for another 2 and a half minutes.

Internets and sarcasm doesn't mix very well

 

[crush]

Internets and sarcasm doesn't mix very well

monk definitely wasnt being sarcastic lol

 

[MonkUnit]

it was a slight error in my calculation lol

i forgot about the minutes part. i just did frames then immediately thought of that in hours