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Project M Social Thread Gold

Soft Serve

Soft Serve

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Since this thread is generally more productive than anywhere else when it comes to actual PM, Has anyone experimented with things like this in PM?
Its basically a brawl platform cancel but from the ledge, abusing how characters change their landing detection with certain moves to force auto cancels.

I don't know if it would be easier or impossible with PM's landing detection, and its not that useful (not at this point in the metagame development, for certain) but I'm still curious.

@ SpiderMad SpiderMad you like platform cancels with snake, thoughts?
 
SpiderMad

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sure here's a private conversation I wasn't able to invite you into since Chesstiger started it and currently is maximum limit of ppl

  2. Actually now that I think of it, I don't think pm uses bone landing detection, because quite often different parts of the body move quite far inside stage before the character lands. Also I think marth can ledgedash so that his feet literally go through the stage.

    Sadly I can't do testing right now since my pm setup broke.
    tauKhan, Jul 27, 2014Report
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  3. DrinkingFoodSmash Master
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    What are the questions, I have lost track over the evolution of this conversation
    ↑
    ↑
    it would be as easy as drinking food
    Click to expand...
    So relatively difficult.
    Click to expand...
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  4. tauKhanSmash Journeyman
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    ↑
    Do you know more about landing criteria in PM? Has it to do with bone landing detection or with ECBs?
    There are so many possibilities still left in platforms and the weird landing habits of some characters.
    I might want to work on a list for autolands, dropcancels etc...
    Click to expand...
    I think chess is currently most interested about this.

    I would like to know exactly when landing after being hit happens: For example, if you shine dair with falco, the opponent almost always goes into grounded hitstun, but if you utilt - > dair or if the opponent just jumps into your dair, he will instead land and the landing animation cancels hitstun.
    tauKhan, Jul 27, 2014Report
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  5. Chesstiger2612Smash Lord
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    ↑
    Actually now that I think of it, I don't think pm uses bone landing detection, because quite often different parts of the body move quite far inside stage before the character lands. Also I think marth can ledgedash so that his feet literally go through the stage.

    Sadly I can't do testing right now since my pm setup broke.
    Click to expand...
    It might be that some bones count while some don't, because in some cases its fitting pretty well (many dairs where characters instantly land when doing the downward motion), but it could also be that the ECB is just

    Yeah so I can do all frame by frame tests if you tell me what to do

    For the reverse case (dropcancels) I got a few contradicting results.
    I was testing on Battlefield with Falco's bair.
    2 frames down are obligatory for the drop
    If I input the aerial on the third frame, it will do a smash instantly (so it counts as grounded still)
    If I input the aerial after that either nothing will happen (2 frames down, two frames neutral, aerial)
    For one frame neutral position or three Falco will just drop through the platform in neutral. I don't really think anything changes for more than three frames.
    Still, I got some drop cancels when randomly testing in real time.
    Just realized I always got the dropcancel after hitting someone, why could that be?

    ↑
    What are the questions, I have lost track over the evolution of this conversation
    Click to expand...
    Just as note, it started with me asking for the reason Ike can autoland after his ledgejump on Wario Ware's platforms by doublejumping. That brought us to the entire landing topic.
    Beat me at mental arithmetic! - My score: 7152 And at chess! - Tag: Hf2612
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  6. AerodromeSenator


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    landing detection is done with knees,

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  7. BlackRainNFireSmash Journeyman


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    ↑
    I'm interested about when land canceling occurs and why it doesn't in shine -> dair. Although at least in melee if you do a really quick shine dair so that the dair cancels momentum of the shine, then land cancelling occurs, and that's a mystery for me.
    Click to expand...
    As far as I know "land cancels" occur when you hit the ground in hitstun that would not have put you in tumble.

    If you get hit by greater than or equal to 80 knockback, you will go into tumble after hitstun. If you hit the ground in tumble or in hitstun that would have sent you into tumble, then you will be put in a knockdown state.

    One of the things that might be affecting this is that if you hit a character who is still in hitstun/knockback, and it's been greater than (or equal to?) 10 frames since the last hit, then the knockback vectors will combine. So for shine -> dair, if you hit them with the dair 10 or more frames after the shine, but before the knockback of the shine is done, the knockback vectors will combine (not "the remaining knockback" or something, the full initial launch vectors of both moves). In this case, this actually decreases the knockback of the move since the vertical components of the vectors are pointing in opposite directions.

    One question I have on what I said above ^ if anyone knows is, is it greater than or equal to 10 frames, or just greater than 10 frames?

    Also in this example, since the knockback is reduced when the vectors combine, does this also mean that the time in hitstun is reduced to the match the new knockback vector? I would assume so, but wondering if something weird happens like them taking full hitstun of what dair ignoring the knockback adjustment.

    ↑
    Do you know more about landing criteria in PM? Has it to do with bone landing detection or with ECBs?
    There are so many possibilities still left in platforms and the weird landing habits of some characters.
    I might want to work on a list for autolands, dropcancels etc...
    Click to expand...
    I had heard that it's when the shin's touch the ground, but knees might well be right. Regardless, it is when a particular bone on the character model comes in contact with a ground surface. Presumably it also requires you to have less than or equal to 0 vertical momentum to land when in addition to the contact.

    I do know that this is one of the reasons it's so easy to do long wavelands out of Ganondorf's double jump, since he balls up in his roll of his double jump, and when you air dodge he shoots back to a vertical stance which shoots his legs down (making contact with the platform). As a result, the spacing for doing a completely left/right air dodge and having him land is more lenient when he's in that balled up double jump animation. The same is probably true of a number of characters.

    I'm not really sure how any of that affects PC drops ect honestly. I'm guessing PC landings happen when you land with 0 (or close to 0?) vertical momentum, but that's just a guess. That would mean an animation where the legs lower near the peak of a jump height might make PC landings more lenient to space(?) And I would guess a lot of double jumps would fit this description (legs lowering around peak of jump).
    BlackRainNFire, Jul 28, 2014Report
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  8. tauKhanSmash Journeyman
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    ↑
    For KB "stacking", if you are hit within 10 frames of being hit the first time the second hit will always override the first hit's KB. For slower consecutive hits, the moves are added as vectors with their relevant post-DI calculated trajectory. @Magus420 would know the specifics with how tumble and stuff is calculated in this.
    Click to expand...
    Also I'm 99% sure only the remaining kb is used for the 1st hit. Kb takes quite a bit of time to decay, and falco's shine -> shine would be ridiculous if the 1st hit kb refreshed when the second one hits. Also things like utilt chains would never work.

    Hitstun/Hitlag will always be according to the last hit kb.

    In case of shine -> dair, the dair doesn't put you in tumble but you still don't land. Also in melee I think I have had a scenario where shine -> dair had bowser land after the dair.
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  9. AerodromeSenator


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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qQ1jzw3ZE

    This?

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  10. BlackRainNFireSmash Journeyman


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    ↑
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qQ1jzw3ZE

    This?
    Click to expand...
    Oh yeah, I forgot about this video. And yeah, this.

    ↑
    Also I'm 99% sure only the remaining kb is used for the 1st hit. Kb takes quite a bit of time to decay, and falco's shine -> shine would be ridiculous if the 1st hit kb refreshed when the second one hits. Also things like utilt chains would never work.
    Click to expand...
    Hmm yeah I think you're probably right. Not sure why I thought otherwise. Would be good to hear some confirmation on this if someone knows for sure, but the Falco shine -> shine example makes me think you're probably right.
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  11. Chesstiger2612Smash Lord
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    Beat me at mental arithmetic! - My score: 7152 And at chess! - Tag: Hf2612
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  12. tauKhanSmash Journeyman
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  13. DrinkingFoodSmash Master
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    ↑
    I just asked about kb stacking in melee boards:



    Also I'm 99% sure only the remaining kb is used for the 1st hit. Kb takes quite a bit of time to decay, and falco's shine -> shine would be ridiculous if the 1st hit kb refreshed when the second one hits. Also things like utilt chains would never work.

    Hitstun/Hitlag will always be according to the last hit kb.

    In case of shine -> dair, the dair doesn't put you in tumble but you still don't land. Also in melee I think I have had a scenario where shine -> dair had bowser land after the dair.
    Click to expand...
    The vectors are only added in the case that they are opposing vectors, such as up and down or left and right. Otherwise, the second hit overrides knockback even if they were still in hitstun, regardless of the ten frame window. When the vectors are added (meaning they oppose each other and subtract from each other's strength), hitstun is calculated first from the full knockback of the second hit, but the launch speed is calculated after the knockback addition (subtraction). In the case of shine->shine or utilt strings, the moves send in the same direction so their knockback is not added, the second one just replaces the first.

    ↑
    Do you have any explanation why the dropcancels (drop through platform->aerial->land on the same platform) only worked when the aerial hit someone?
    Click to expand...
    Basically ECBs don't refresh every frame, they change shape after a certain number of frames (i don't know what determines that though). When you drop through a platform the ECB changes shape so that is now below the platform as soon as you start dropping though so that you don't immediately land back on it again. So if you do an aerial, the ECB doesn't change to reflect the aerial's normal ECB right away, it takes a few frames. If it had changed as soon as the aerial came out, you'd land on the platform every time you dropped and nair'd, assuming the aerial has an ECB placed higher than the drop-through's ECB. Hitlag gives just enough time for the ECB to change to the aerial's respective ECB, so if the aerial is quick enough such that it can hit while the aerial's ECB would still be over the platform, the hitlag gives it the time to change to that.
    But I'm not 100% sure that's how it works in PM, but aerodrome just saying that people land at the knees doesn't really account for all the other situations in which ECBs are needed to determine collisions. I figure brawl and thus PM have ECBs in the same manner too, and they are now being adjusted or have already been adjusted to match Melee.​
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  2. DrinkingFoodSmash Master
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    Yeah when I say opposing I mean after they have been broken down into Y and X vectors. The knockback angles have to be in different quadrants to have opposing vectors. 40° and 80° angle hits in the same direction wouldn't stack for instance. But 40° would stack with 40° in the opposite direction (which would just be 140° if you're assuming a static orientation). Even two downward hits could stack if their horizontal components were in opposite directions, but I can't really imagine a situation where this is likely to occur.
    And yeah I forgot, if the first hit is stronger (and they are more than 10 frames apart) its knockback is used while the hitstun from the second is used.
    So a generalized rule would be, when the hits are more than 10 frames apart, vectors are added if they oppose, otherwise the strongest is used, and hitstun from the second always replaces hitstun from the first.
    ↑
    ↑
    it would be as easy as drinking food
    Click to expand...
    So relatively difficult.
    Click to expand...
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  3. tauKhanSmash Journeyman
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    The stacking must be done by components. Otherwise you would see shine di'ed to left -> shine di'ed to right do way more kb than two shines with no di, and it would be silly.
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  4. DrinkingFoodSmash Master
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    Yeah, only the opposing components are added. Didn't realize I didn't make that clear.
    ↑
    ↑
    it would be as easy as drinking food
    Click to expand...
    So relatively difficult.
    Click to expand...
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  5. Chesstiger2612Smash Lord
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    So I assume the effect of landing as pressing jump has to do with your ECB shape getting refreshed in the next frame after you pressed jump where it stretched, and you would need to be passing through the platform before too.
    Is that reasonable?
    And if yes, knowing the criteria for ECB shape refreshes would be the next step.

    Aside from landing with jumps, landing with autocancelled aerials is also interesting, and at least some of them seem to work more reliably (on every stage)
    Beat me at mental arithmetic! - My score: 7152 And at chess! - Tag: Hf2612
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  6. Chesstiger2612Smash Lord
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    I think I figured out some of the mechanics behind landing with jump.

    Pressing jump always refreshes the ECB shape if you have a jump left and at least under some conditions if you have no jump left (if not always).
    Another possibility is that it is just Brawl landing detection which only gets checked under certain conditions.

    Now with the new animation, the character lands or doesn't land, depending on these factors:
    - new relative position to the platform
    - old relative position to the platform and old animation

    I haven't found if that speaks for ECB or landing detection, because ECBs could have been shaped differently in the earlier animation and certain bones can move very abrupt between certain animations so it could also be landing detection.

    But the previous animation has influence, for example ledgejumps make jumplanding much easier (probably because characters aren't standing straight), while only a few characters can jumpland with their DJs without ledgejump animation:

    List of characters that can jumpland with their ledgejumps on WarioWare
    Beat me at mental arithmetic! - My score: 7152 And at chess! - Tag: Hf2612
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  7. Chesstiger2612Smash Lord
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    Beat me at mental arithmetic! - My score: 7152 And at chess! - Tag: Hf2612
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  8. DrinkingFoodSmash Master
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    ↑
    ↑
    it would be as easy as drinking food
    Click to expand...
    So relatively difficult.
    Click to expand...
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  9. AerodromeSenator


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  10. Chesstiger2612Smash Lord
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    Beat me at mental arithmetic! - My score: 7152 And at chess! - Tag: Hf2612
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  11. 8adgeSmash Apprentice
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  12. SpiderMadSmash Champion
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wait that didn't work well at all, @ Chesstiger2612 Chesstiger2612 get rid of Kink or Mach and invite Soft; or just @Warchamp7 stop making stupid vines and increase the limit on conversations

Also here's PewPewu's twitch stream that got muted by twitch for copyright music so I downloaded and reuploaded to bypass the restriction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZLCLFrrh5Q&feature=youtu.be
He talks about another aspect, non-aerial instant landings with no landing lag, around 15min or so in

I totally one day self-discovered the Snake thing, I bet the PM collection agency didn't know of it working to autoland on non-moving plats (all) as well as even the ground just like Sheik did (see the end of the Grasping the Game video, it's the same thing sheik did in that Kadano's sheik gif https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzoxJ9jy-6g ). Nor did and still does the world currently realize how amazing the few aspects in PM allow for better air time and early aerials that allows Marth to be 2x more interesting than his Melee self (along with B-reverse and Wavebouncing) that I've dealt into that no one at the time mentioned.

Marth in Melee is great, but his double aerial game never reached the potential it should have. Even now in PM without 1 frame of buffer it's a little locked in the realm of difficulty/not worth if you mess up.

People don't realize for the Melee chars 50% of the stuff isn't possible in Melee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BixZR3-YiMw
Puff SH Bair Nair, Fox autocancel bair, Falco autocancel uair, Sheik double fair... and more but especially Marth

In Melee Marth is restricted a bit, and even with the limits of his double aerials you rarely see; SH Fair Bair, SH Fair Dair/Nair. But in Melee with SH Bair it can only do DJ. in PM it can Bair Fair and such as you see in 1st of the early aeirla comp videos as well as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gyIS-HdUgw
Imagine if you watched some form of Melee (like Smash 4) where he can't SHDF (which he can't in Smash 4), that's how you feel when you experience how much he has in PM and then watch/play Melee (again one instance is he can SH Bair to Fair/Uair/Dair/Side-b in PM, but only DJ after in Melee).

AND beyond the reasons for the extra air time possible, Brawl unrestricted AD to be allowable through IASA so that opens up windows for waveland and AGT (Bair WL/AGT now possible, sooner Fair WL).

nor did the world know of C-stick moonwalk til I was informed from Canadian info pipelines on it's early sentiment and popularized it on my channel. In which other channels like not even a month later made copy videos with no reference. I made a comment on Wombat's video copy that just said "what way did you learn this"? and it apparently got deleted.

You can have 1k subs and just recreate someone's 200view video on something and no one will be the wiser, that's the entirety of 2013+ Smash videos with reddit and such (except for Kadano's channel). PMDepot might/will pursue some of this to stay relevant in the smash ecosystem; though it will give always give the prior videos link(s) of the concepts in the description unlike most foos.

Br8kage also discovered the use of C-stick to to C-dash in likes of Cactuar's talk of thing rather than using all the control stick to do it (Though as time goes by it's pretty easy to use the control stick normally to just crouch and dash), but at the end of my MW video I did mentioned it was doing crazy stuff.
 
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bubbaking said:
What was that now? :confused:
Click to expand...
Are you name searching how'd you pull that up? That post was indeed all I know and will know with no search feature on Facebook. You (to my remembrance) had to remind some TO on FB to sign you up for some tourney after you already did or something as well as one other person had to too; you both live in NY and by chance wondered if this TO that forgot EY was that one. Unless you were that TO.
 
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bubbaking

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SpiderMad said:
Are you name searching how'd you pull that up? That post was indeed all I know and will know with no search feature on Facebook. You (to my remembrance) had to remind some TO on FB to sign you up for some tourney after you already did or something as well as one other person had to too; you both live in NY and by chance wondered if this TO that forgot EY was that one. Unless you were that TO.
Click to expand...
Lolz, yeah, it was a name-search. :p I was looking for another post that was buried somewhere and then I randomly saw yours near the top of the search list. Yeah, I believe that's happened at a tourney before, but I forget which one. :facepalm: I don't think that's happened with me as a TO, though... (<__<)
 
Lizalfos

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My stepdad is such a hardass. I try to agree with him and show that I'm on the same page as him, but he always takes it as me disrespecting him or my mom. He blames me for being defensive when he is the most defensive asshole ever. I literally can't say anything right. I have to sit there and let him beat up on me.

I like him, but seriously **** him.
 
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PMS | Tink-er

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Lizalfos said:
My stepdad is such a hardass. I try to agree with him and show that I'm on the same page as him, but he always takes it as me disrespecting him or my mom. He blames me for being defensive when he is the most defensive ******* ever. I literally can't say anything right. I have to sit there and let him beat up on me.

I like him, but seriously **** him.
Click to expand...
sounds like a deal breaker dude
why would you possibly like a guy who projects his personality issues onto you
 
Lizalfos

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Tink-er in the Kitchen said:
sounds like a deal breaker dude
why would you possibly like a guy who projects his personality issues onto you
Click to expand...
Because he is actually really smart, and I've had lots of good conversations with him. If anything goes wrong however, I have to tread lightly. It is painfully bad whenever I have to discuss a problem with him. Sometimes it is my fault because I snap at my mom a bit whenever she won't stop talking (she will go on and on in a somewhat patronizing way). My mom gives great advice, but she just doesn't stop sometimes. Love my family, but whenever I come across a problem they insist they are helping as they tear me apart over something I'm already tearing myself apart over.
 
MechWarriorNY

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Vashimus said:
I've played a lot of hard games and love a good challenge, but Fire Emblem games are just way too difficult for me, even on Normal. As I get further in a playthrough, whenever I beat a chapter it feels more like I just got lucky rather than it being a show of my own skill in overcoming adversity. It's not a "YEAH! WHAT NOW, GAME? **** YOU. WHO'S THE MAN? I AM." kinda feeling, it's like a "Ugh, FINALLY I made it though that bull****. Now I can move on." Just doesn't give me that same satisfaction.
Click to expand...
......Get better.

nameless.ez.™ said:
conspiracy
Click to expand...
*GASP*

Professor Gravy said:
I just played a falcon round robin in which the only move you could use was knee. It might have been the funnest thing I have ever done
Click to expand...
...Do that, but in Brawl's Turbo game-type.
LOL
SpiderMad said:
Now that I got DIOS MIOS I should play some GC games I never played that were good
Click to expand...
Yu-Gi-Oh: The Falsebound Kingdom, Megaman X Collection, Metroid Prime 1 and 2(: Echoes), Twilight Princess, Tales of Symphonia, blah blah blah etc etc.~
TimeSmash said:
Gee guys I wonder if MechWarriorNY likes anything in this thread
Click to expand...

Soft Serve said:
When you post and mech DOESN'T like it you know you dun ****ed up
Click to expand...
Y'all already know.
 
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Lizalfos

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Obviously its life. Everyone else's problems are more important than mine because when it comes down to it, I have amazing circumstances. Stress is real tho man, and its frustrating because I have no good reason to be this stressed.
 
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Lizalfos

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I had a bad day because I lost my phone. I vented about how terrible being berated by your parents is when you are trying your hardest to be agreeable. I already got really worked up about today before I had to talk to them about it, and I had a breakdown when my stepdad misinterpreted what I was saying as disrespect. I also feel incompetent because I constantly lose things, am a poor planner, and generally have/give myself a hard time over things I shouldn't. My last post was just me saying that I need to put things into perspective, and understand that most of my problems are internal no matter how difficult those around me may be.
 
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Player -0

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Lots and lots of school. Also running cross country doesn't help. That stuff hurts baddd.

Big Bang References and complaining:
My Mom feels like that one episode on Big Bang where that one fangirl person liked Shelton but later on she started forcing him to work 24/7 and made it so he had no fun or anything but work. Yeah, I get school is important but like seriously. School TAKE UP ALL OF YOUr LIFE ASNKFENWGRJEWGJOJWOJOBMRTHONMFSJBORJTHOTRv *choke/notmentallyunstable*


Lizalfos said:
I had a bad day because I lost my phone. I vented about how terrible being berated by your parents is when you are trying your hardest to be agreeable. I already got really worked up about today before I had to talk to them about it, and I had a breakdown when my stepdad misinterpreted what I was saying as disrespect. I also feel incompetent because I constantly lose things, am a poor planner, and generally have/give myself a hard time over things I shouldn't. My last post was just me saying that I need to put things into perspective, and understand that most of my problems are internal no matter how difficult those around me may be.
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Get that find my iPhone app thingy bro. Life is hard though.
 
Professor Gravy

Professor Gravy

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Lizalfos said:
I had a bad day because I lost my phone. I vented about how terrible being berated by your parents is when you are trying your hardest to be agreeable. I already got really worked up about today before I had to talk to them about it, and I had a breakdown when my stepdad misinterpreted what I was saying as disrespect. I also feel incompetent because I constantly lose things, am a poor planner, and generally have/give myself a hard time over things I shouldn't. My last post was just me saying that I need to put things into perspective, and understand that most of my problems are internal no matter how difficult those around me may be.
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what I do at times like that (this might not work for you because im a weirdo) I just take a walk, like a 5 hour walk and think about random stuff until I've calmed down.
 
Paradoxium

Paradoxium

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When I'm feeling bad I just tell myself that moping around isn't doing anything worthwhile which means I'm just wasting time. Rather than being sad I like to think about what the best thing would be to do in the situation now that it has already happened. I hate wasting time (Unless I'm High)


And I think it's about time I changed the old "melee gang bang" signature , I'm gonna miss this sig it was such a classic
 
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Soft Serve

Soft Serve

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Parents can be difficult, but most of the time Its not intentional. If they say things that hurt its often just an accident or they are Projecting their own insecurities.

People sometimes set standards for you without even really meaning to, and don't realize how it effects you. Like, my older sister graduated from Arizona State with a 4.0. Its impressive (although to be fair she was only there 2 years, and took classes at a community college to credit most requirements, classes that my Mom pretty much did for her because she is dyslexic) that she got a 4.0 with 2 years of only Art and Fiber classes (those aren't easy to get A's in, seriously) and she's incredibly talented (she works in New york now and makes clothes and hats on request from big name people). But now I'm an engineering major expected to keep a high A average over a 5 year masters program in the honors college. My parents are really ****ing mean about it. But they dont mean it in a hostile way, they are just trying to look out for me. They might be a bit more eccentric that they should (recent deaths in the family can cause that) but they mean well.

Idk, @ Lizalfos Lizalfos , try to remember that everyone is still just a person with their own problems and difficulties, and as you try to get your own life problems into perspective remember that everyone else around you goes through the same thing.

Also Meditation and cardio are great stress relievers if you need something like that.
 
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