Project M Social Thread Gold

[CORY]

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jk i think wd gaems sounds like they're goin bout this in a bad way

how so?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

tbh it sounds like they're trying to design by committee which usually doesn't work out

it seems like it has more potential than any other non-smash platform game so far but expecting it's going to be huge and esports is definitely a mistake

to me, it seems like it's going to be kinda bland design-wise with emphasis on gameplay drawing people in (which only half works, even with dedicated players) and then the gameplay itself is going to try to please everyone while ending up being a mishmash of ideas that doesn't differentiate itself from being anything other than "melee/pm with a few tweaks"

I've tempered my expectations so I don't get disappointed, but I'll be impressed if the playerbase gets to current skullgirls level, let alone current PM level


although I am pretty impressed with the fact that the two characters they've talked about so far are both women that aren't moe/weeb-bait designs (cough skullgirls cough) and the mascot character is a woman of color

 

[~Dad~]

dang the old gang is all still here

nice

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

we don't have anything better to do

smashboards is a lot slower these days though, even compared to the "slower days" of 2014

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

i think they're trying to remake the melee top tier

idk how they would get new people w/ the same characters

speedy brawler - falcon
space animal - fox/falco
sword fighter - marth
weapon fighter - ics
grappler - sheik/ics (lmao melee dk sucks)
projectile master - samus/falco/peach
duo - ics
floaty - puff/peach

nothing they've suggested is new, we already have a game with a meta centred around these exact archetypes

it's called melee and it's their biggest competition, you've probably heard of it

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

because the issue with all platform fighters is

everyone who plays them knows melee
why play a shallow imitation of melee when you could just play melee

and

when pm was blackballed and called jank for five years straight because it was similar to melee but not melee
why deviate from the script and add new things when people aren't going to like it

they're playing it too safe

but if you play it safe, why not just play melee

just make a full blown anime platform fighting game and go full out new ideas

 

[Life]

Would you care to suggest an entirely new archetype that doesn't already exist in a platform fighter? I'll narrow that down to "platform fighter with wavedashing," i.e. Melee/PM/RoA.

There's no guarantee that WDG's game is going to catch on; my personal expectations are currently set at "good but not life-changing."

 

[shairn]

The advantage of playing NOTsmash is that you're not bound by first or third party licenses and Nintendo's whimsical attitude with the competitive scene. You can host large scale tournaments, stream them, make money off them all with developer support because that's what the game is made for. Moreover, having the game being native to PC opens up a lot of opportunities for sponsors from companies like Nvidia, AMD, Intel, whatever.

At least I think the wavedash game is supposed to be PC native? lmao

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Would you care to suggest an entirely new archetype that doesn't already exist in a platform fighter? I'll narrow that down to "platform fighter with wavedashing," i.e. Melee/PM/RoA.

There's no guarantee that WDG's game is going to catch on; my personal expectations are currently set at "good but not life-changing."

idk I do have a long google doc lying around somewhere that's basically just a list of concepts for a platform fighting game including a cancelling system (aka everyone has pm lucario/s4 ryu normals), a system of anime fighter airdashes combined with smash-style airdodges, adding airthrows and other stuff

also a game that's kinda "traditional platform fighter plus wavedashing" but marvel style, with assists for each character (I think I actually went through the entire pm roster to figure out what assists to add lmao)

and you could even do more things that end up near traditional fighting game, such as having no knockback growth and stages with walls, or an exponential knockback curve (at low percents, combos vary little over percent, allowing a cancel system to be instituted with reliable combos (possibly getting rid of/limiting sdi) or even stages that have temporary walls that disappear for a character once they reach x percent or damage or something

basically I think there's a lot of ideas already out there in other games that could be implemented, and rivals did experiment with their no ledgegrab/parry option (except the removal of blocking or grabbing actually made things worse in my mind) but I feel like the only person actually coming up with any ideas is sakurai and we know that he neither cares nor has any consistency


edit: of course I have zero game dev experience or time or money to actually make such ideas plus even if I did game design is a terrible field to be the average joe in, and anyway, everyone has ideas and talk is cheap

 

[Lizalfos]

Space animals don't have any defining characteristics except: op shine, op sex kicks, op lasers.
How are you designing a balanced character around being stupid.

 

[standardtoaster]

https://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky

Lud (Chun Li) just sent Daigo to losers!! Incredibly close games and very solid play from Lud

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

>go on r/kappa to see daigo in losers reaction
>someone asks "who did he lose to"
>answer: "chun li, doesn't matter who"

chun li is snake/squirtle confirmed

 

[Bazkip]

Bleck how does this make you feel?

 

[shairn]

Did the shine invincibility protect him from rest? LMAO

 

[Lizalfos]

leffen so optimized, probably sdi'd too.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

lol daigo lost to rayray

when's mahvel

 

[standardtoaster]

Double chun

 

[Lizalfos]

Part of the problem with top teirs is that they get further developed.
There should be incentive to play under used characters online or something.

 

[Bleck]

how does this make you feel?

melee is dead and has been for years

 

[Life]

Space animal archetype to me is "very fast fall speed, laser, shine, firefox, secondary recovery move" mechanically and "anthropomorphic animal" aesthetically. (I should also note that sometimes characters aren't really defined by their archetypes, but by the ways they don't fit into their archetypes--I could easily conceive of a floaty space animal, for instance.)

Common weaknesses include a high technical barrier combined with being punished very hard for mistakes (due to poor combo weight and fragile recovery), i.e. a high skill floor that makes them not all that great in casual play but frequently among the top picks in high-level play. Most space animals also have more specific weaknesses, e.g. Falco's horizontal movement isn't great and Wolf doesn't have long-lasting aerials. (Should be noted that Wolf's aerials give him another strength Fox and Falco don't have, in that he can go deeper offstage than either of them with his bair; also lets him have a stomp, which is pretty crazy.)

In exchange, they have a tendency to get other very powerful tools; shine in particular is an unusually versatile tool, in that it allows space animals to pressure shields in a unique way, while also being a strong combo tool and get-off-me move balanced mainly by not having all that great of a hitbox (so it's not strictly better than their other tools in a lot of situations, i.e. the 3.02 problem). I think being frame 1 tends to get these moves overestimated, though; it's the fastest possible move, so it must be insanely strong, right? And shines are really, really good. But the space animal already has to find a way to get on top of you because shines don't have as good hitboxes as normals. (I'm speaking archetypically here; Fox shine is arguably a little bigger than it ought to be.) On their own, shines don't break a character.

Lasers give space animals a way to pick their battles more effectively, which is vital when you're as glassy as a space animal is. Fox without lasers is not the best character in Melee, IMO. Falco without lasers is a mid tier. Wolf's not much better off than Falco.

Firefox is simultaneously a good and bad recovery tool; on its own (64 Fox) it's awful, since you know the space animal has to go for it and the startup makes it very free to punish. Given a secondary recovery move, however, it becomes pretty balanced, since it's much harder to just punish it on reaction. Versatile angles give firefox plenty of ways to mix up. However, depending on the edgeguard method chosen, getting hit once may leave the space animal effectively checkmated, since their recovery at that point becomes dependent on a high-startup move.

I think that the Melee/PM space animals are fine design-wise, if arguably too overtuned (a little overtuning is fine, see also Perfect Imbalance by Extra Credits on YT). Fox's niche is "I'm a space animal that wins with overwhelming speed," Falco's is "I'm a space animal that wins with overwhelming control," Wolf's is "I'm a space animal that wins because I get to pick my battles." Fox and Falco win most interactions simply because of great hitboxes and speed/control respectively; Wolf doesn't win interactions as easily on the whole, but is better at picking the ones he wants to contest than either Fox or Falco (having a wavelandable laser and a good dashdance to boot, also his secondary recovery move is really good), and wins them that way.

(Should note that I worded those niches to describe how those characters are being played when they are successful; a losing Falco will hardly ever be in "overwhelming control" of the match, eh?)

I can't really speak for Zetterburn; he stretches the "space animal" archetype even further out from its origins in Fox and Falco, and has some other alterations due to differences in RoA's engine (his secondary recovery is just the universal upB-walljump-upB, his shine isn't frame 1 but that doesn't matter because no shields, he can set a trap because that's kind of a thing everyone does in RoA, etc). Makes him hard to compare to Lylat's denizens.

I have to leave, can't proofread this post. RIP.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

space animals CAN be balanced, just look at brawl fox or sm4sh falco

or even pm falco to an extent, a pleasantly high mid tier

play fast, punish hard, get punished hard

if you never lose neutral you look like a god but if you lose neutral a lot you get blown up

overall, not that bad, most fighting games have a fast-but-paper-health archetype

(side note: at one time I was really hoping for slippy to be a thing and be a slightly floatier, far more slippery version of fox/falco, just as luigi is to mario. woulda mained that right away but alas that was merely an april fool's joke)

 

[Bleck]

space animals CAN be balanced, just look at brawl fox or sm4sh falco

or sm4sh fox, who is very good but not by virtue of literally invalidating over half of the cast

it's almost like these characters can exist and be healthy if you take out ledgehogging and one-frame-invincible-parry-spikes

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

if you take out ledgehogging

I don't think a universal mechanic that impacts every matchup is to blame here

when combined with shinespiking, sure, but the issue lies mostly with shine and incredibly heavy damage on non-special moves as well as well-abover-average movement across the board

 

[Gamegenie222]

space animals CAN be balanced, just look at brawl fox or sm4sh falco

or even pm falco to an extent, a pleasantly high mid tier

play fast, punish hard, get punished hard

if you never lose neutral you look like a god but if you lose neutral a lot you get blown up

overall, not that bad, most fighting games have a fast-but-paper-health archetype

(side note: at one time I was really hoping for slippy to be a thing and be a slightly floatier, far more slippery version of fox/falco, just as luigi is to mario. woulda mained that right away but alas that was merely an april fool's joke)

Smash 4 Falco is booty ass brah. Design wise he's fine but some nerfs hurt him alot without being compensated like blaster and his jab 2 onward and changing his bair small stuff like that.

 

[Bleck]

I don't think a universal mechanic that impacts every matchup is to blame here

a mechanic affecting every character does not mean it affects every character equally

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

So people still come here? Anyway, how's life treating ya?

 

[Player -0]

I thought I saw you like, yesterday.

Smash 4 Falco is almost really cool.

 

[Life]

I kinda take issue with people who assume "balanced" equals mid tier. You can make an argument that Melee's mid tiers (let's define that as roughly Samus through roughly Ganondorf, to get an idea of the power levels I'm talking about) are an appropriate power level for a platform fighter to be further balanced around, sure. But then what's the problem with balancing around Fox level? Falcon level? For that matter, Pichu level? What if I assert that Fox through Peach are balanced and everyone else in Melee is underpowered because their options aren't as interesting? Or that the bottom-tiers are the most balanced characters because they make you work for everything and everyone else is broken and gives you too much for free?

It's all arbitrary.

I think people assume a game has to or should be perfectly balanced, when no such perfectly-balanced game exists aside from MAYBE some games of pure randomness (and debatably rock paper scissors but that's a whole 'nother subject). A game only has to be decently balanced, with no flagrantly best choice, and have a variety of interesting options within its power range.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I kinda take issue with people who assume "balanced" equals mid tier. You can make an argument that Melee's mid tiers (let's define that as roughly Samus through roughly Ganondorf, to get an idea of the power levels I'm talking about) are an appropriate power level for a platform fighter to be further balanced around, sure. But then what's the problem with balancing around Fox level? Falcon level? For that matter, Pichu level? What if I assert that Fox through Peach are balanced and everyone else in Melee is underpowered because their options aren't as interesting? Or that the bottom-tiers are the most balanced characters because they make you work for everything and everyone else is broken and gives you too much for free?

It's all arbitrary.

I think people assume a game has to or should be perfectly balanced, when no such perfectly-balanced game exists aside from MAYBE some games of pure randomness (and debatably rock paper scissors but that's a whole 'nother subject). A game only has to be decently balanced, with no flagrantly best choice, and have a variety of interesting options within its power range.

yeah i agree with all of this, because defining balance by tiers doesn't have much to do with actual character design preference

I currently think that while diddy is a top-tier, he's relatively balanced in doing so, because even though he has a ton of options you still have to select the correct option in every situation

of course those are my own arbitrary definitions of "balance" and your mileage may vary, which is the issue when discussing balance past anything other than a "character variety/viability" standpoint


edit: I think the reason that I'm fine with nakoruru being s++ tier in kofxiv is because she reminds me of a miyazaki character and I would be totally happy seeing her in most every match

 

[PlateProp]

If pm falco still had the brawl moves it would be the coolest ****

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

lol I might pick up ike as a secondary because holy**** walljump fair and sideb mixups are so fun and it feels nice to play a character that has hella hitboxes long after you press a button

of course I'm probably going to drop him for all but a few matchups once I realize that I miss my 2 frame jab (especially ledgedash jab) and 3 frame nair

 

[Lizalfos]

Realizing all the quiet guys have girlfriends.
TBH my friend group should all wear purity rings.
Not overtly nerdy, more frat like.
Only one guy has any game. I think he chills out around girls.
Compartmentalizing.
Nah I'll just be gay.

 

[Bleck]

Realizing all the quiet guys have girlfriends.

that they're quiet is a coincidence - the relevant part is that they have money

 

[Grey Belnades]

that they're quiet is a coincidence - the relevant part is that they are ****ing over.

Fix that for ya.

Grey's flowchart guide to galfriends.

Step 1: Ask the gal you're interested in "AM I ****ING GOING OVER?!"

If she says yes: you enter the "YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I AM" End.
If she says no: then you are not ****ing going over and therefore need to at least bury the local jobber before you are elevated to the middle of the card AKA B+ Player End.

 

[eideeiit]

that they're quiet is a coincidence - the relevant part is that they have money

Of course Mech liked this post.

ledgedash

Who needs ledgedashes when you got quickdraw shiz. Seriously. Doesn't Ike have like invincible QD grabs to center stage or something?

 

[shairn]

Subreddit simulator is cool.

 

[Lizalfos]

Smash 4 Falco is almost really cool.

I wish he had anything but his weird tripping shine, and that laser wasn't punishable from across the stage.

I like how Steven Universe looks like a small indie animation project.

 

[KakuCP9]

Apparently you can take pictures of Pokémon you find cities or their natural habitats in Sun/moon in a similar fashion to Pokémon snap. November can't come soon enough.

 

[Lizalfos]

I just filled my outlook calendar with all my responsibilities and color coded it. (So aesthetic)
Studying for ez physics on energy drinks. (I feel so alive)

 

[Bleck]

Type: Null is so edgy that it loops back around and is really cool