Project M Social Thread Gold

[Ningildo]

"how dare these people do work for money instead of for nothing" ~ children on the internet

Fine, point taken.

The biggest issue most people have, though, is that they can't even admit to that much and keep their mouth shut forever.

You can argue all you want about how it wouldn't change complaints and anger from the majority, and you'd be right.

But it's a simple question with a simple answer that'd cut down at least a bit of the hate. And if the answer isn't simple, well, no one would know because people can't read minds in person, much less over the internet, so you know. ****ing say it so people know what the **** is going on.



I mean, uh, screw you Bleck.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

also toph is a weenie and always has been and I don't like him

 

[GHNeko]

"how dare these people do work for money instead of for nothing" ~ children on the internet

whos saying that?

 

[Lizalfos]

I just watched -only- the ending for the hateful eight. I have never watched a Q.T. movie before. What the hell.

New avvy.

 

[Rᴏb]

hateful eight was really good

 

[GHNeko]

i read hateful eight and thought hatoful boyfriend

god damn it internet

 

[Bleck]

I have never watched a Q.T. movie before.

start with Reservoir Dogs and continue from there

 

[Bleck]

The biggest issue most people have, though, is that they can't even admit to that much and keep their mouth shut forever.

The real issue is that people have entitlement issues - they feel as though they've been personally wronged (which, in this case, is fair!), but they believe that someone else must therefore be to blame. You can tell by the words that they, and you yourself, use when talking about it - saying that they need to admit what they've done implies that what they've done is a crime or a secret or both, when in reality accepting money in exchange for doing something they love is a pretty easy decision to make, even if it comes with the expense of PM and the shaky legal ground that it stands on.

Nintendo is not wrong to suppress PM, unfortunately - not in a legal sense, not in a game design sense, and not in a community sense. That we, the players, have to suffer for it is just an effect of circumstance, not some villainous bigwig out to **** us.

 

[GHNeko]

How is nintendo right to suppress a community product in a community sense.

It's literally something we made.

For us.

For the community.

The same with 20XX.

 

[CORY]

not some villainous bigwig out to **** us.

You can't prove that. We all know the reason iwata "finally succumbed " to cancer.

 

[GHNeko]

You can't prove that. We all know the reason iwata "finally succumbed " to cancer.

bruh

 

[nimigoha]

Edit: Whoa, minefield topic. Don't mind me, just asking a question.

Spoiler

Been messing around with some TAS stuff recently, just found out you can Perfect Pivot in both PM and Melee. It's a one frame window, so it's difficult, but it's definitely doable. Wanted to see if this is widely known or if there's anyone who uses it at all. From what I've tested, it's faster for most characters than wavedashing back by about 5 frames, which can make a difference in some situations. It's still obviously got the downsides Perfect Pivot inherently has, but I think it's at least interesting that it's even a thing that can be done. It's one of the only ATs that's doable in every Smash game there is.

Yeah this has been known for years. Pivot jabs, pivot tilts, pivot smashes, etc. All useful. Especially for characters with long dash>run transitions like Marth, where you want to hit someone with a standing move (like Fsmash) but need to do it before being able to crouch out of run.

Perfect Pivots are, from what I gather, what the S4 community call empty pivots. Or they're just using Perfect Pivot for both a pivot with a move and an empty pivot. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I have a pretty basic understanding of it.

But yeah, pivots are really good. And a 1 frame window, yes.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

How is nintendo right to suppress a community product in a community sense.

It's literally something we made.

For us.

For the community.

The same with 20XX.

Granted, Nintendo and "right" don't often fit snugly in the same sentence. How can a company as ass-backwards as that be considered a good example of consumer-provider relations to some is beyond my understanding. A bunch of degenerates hugging their favorite pieces of plastic and denouncing the wrongs of a stone-age company are quite the vocal group I guess. My only hope is that Nintendo is fastening their own noose with what they've done to 3rd parties and people that just want to play a game with merit beyond pandering the "different" card.

I'll probably make the switch to PC and get my exclusive stuff on handhelds in the long haul, seeing as console gaming has delved further into the ****ter than I'm willing to go. :/

Edit: Their handhelds are still pre' good tho.

Yet another edit: When I say "stone-age" in relation to nintendo, it not much in relation to the IP being reused as it is the amount of limitation they put on their development and technological competitiveness in comparison to other platforms. They've deliberately cut the demands of a modernizing ecosystem, the gamers, and developers who want to accomplish their developments to their standards, and yet they constantly get to pull the "can't do no wrong" card.

Also, the fact that people have taken to seeing and promoting Nintendo's blatant restrictions on tournament variety and representation is absolute bile from a consumer-friendly standpoint. (And yeah Bleck , I understand that it's their right to. That's a constant truth.)

Last Edit: I didn't know that being choked by Nintendo is an honor to some spineless slime on reddit etc. (Granted, putting high expectations on reddit is not oft rewarded.)

 

[Fortress]

I just watched -only- the ending for the hateful eight. I have never watched a Q.T. movie before. What the hell.

New avvy.

Reservoir Dogs is the greatest, Pulp Fiction is okay, Basterds is funny.

 

[Lizalfos]

somebody told me R Dogs is the same movie as h8ful 8 in a different setting.

But holy ****.

 

[Bleck]

How is nintendo right to suppress a community product in a community sense.

It's literally something we made.

Well, first off, it's something you made out of something that belongs to them. That gives them the legal right to suppress it.

More to your point, though, the problem is that while appealing to bandwagon is a fallacy, it's an effective one - I would posit that Nintendo suppresses PM not just out of legal spite or financial worry, but because its existence spreads the idea that a lot of unhealthy mechanics are what makes a Smash game - or any game, really - good.

And the idea that Smash games need to be like [this] to be good is dangerous, in a legal and financial way, probably. But moreso than anything, I have faith enough in Nintendo's attitude towards games that I believe it's possible that they suppress PM just to prevent the idea that [bad mechanic] is [good] from spreading from impressionable mind to impressionable mind.

tl;dr nintendo is suppressing PM because l-canceling is just that dumb

Edit;

Granted, Nintendo and "right" don't often fit snugly in the same sentence. How can a company as ***-backwards as that be considered a good example of consumer-provider relations to some is beyond my understanding. A bunch of degenerates hugging their favorite pieces of plastic and denouncing the wrongs of a stone-age company are quite the vocal group I guess. My only hope is that Nintendo is fastening their own noose with what they've done to 3rd parties and people that just want to play a game with merit beyond pandering the "different" card.

I'll probably make the switch to PC and get my exclusive stuff on handhelds in the long haul, seeing as console gaming has delved further into the ****ter than I'm willing to go. :/

Nintendo has thrived as a business by making it a point to not pander directly to people who have the attitude that you're displaying right now, for much longer than you've been alive. Your perception is likely limited to the late lifespan of the Wii and onwards, and probably strictly on a basis that has to do with Smash - you should probably maybe do some reading about the history of the industry and some basic business stuff before continuing to call other people degenerates for liking a different kind of video game than you do.

 

[nimigoha]

D1 being cryptic? What?

You'd think that by now, people in the smash community would realize that we really really dislike being kept in the dark. Announcements of announcements, Nintendo involvement, etc.

Like, for once, actually try not pissing everyone off by getting out ahead of something. Instead of:

"We're not including PM"
People freak out
"Whoa guys chill just wait and see "
People are not chilled by this
Something of value happens or some explanation is given
"A ****in Atodaso guys lol you freaked out for no reason looool"

Try:

"Hey we have something cool to announce! We're partnering with Nintendo! The natural reaction is of course (since the past hasn't exactly been fruitful) to wonder what we're getting in return! Well, it's insert something of value haha isn't that great! Unfortunately due to the involvement of Nintendo, we can't include PM at this event and that really makes us sad."
People are still mad that PM is being pushed away but at the same time have something to actually value

Like jesus christ guys.

EDIT: Also I love how cold and heartless D1 is being.

"Melee wasn't doing so good and now we're doing great! Then I started becoming interested in PM! Then I got that Twitch $$$ so bye PM. What's that, PM isn't doing so good? Okay but Melee is great!"

Have a little empathy. Like just a smidgen.

 

[CORY]

bruh

: ( sorry, it actually wasn't really a good joke in the end.

 

[Bleck]

D1 being cryptic? What?.

being good at a video game does not make one good at public relations

in fact some more cynical types would argue that the former comes at the expense of the latter

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Well, first off, it's something you made out of something that belongs to them. That gives them the legal right to suppress it.

More to your point, though, the problem is that while appealing to bandwagon is a fallacy, it's an effective one - I would posit that Nintendo suppresses PM not just out of legal spite or financial worry, but because its existence spreads the idea that a lot of unhealthy mechanics are what makes a Smash game - or any game, really - good.

And the idea that Smash games need to be like [this] to be good is dangerous, in a legal and financial way, probably. But moreso than anything, I have faith enough in Nintendo's attitude towards games that I believe it's possible that they suppress PM just to prevent the idea that [bad mechanic] is [good] from spreading from impressionable mind to impressionable mind.

tl;dr nintendo is suppressing PM because l-canceling is just that dumb

Edit;



Nintendo has thrived as a business by making it a point to not pander directly to people who have the attitude that you're displaying right now, for much longer than you've been alive. Your perception is likely limited to the late lifespan of the Wii and onwards, and probably strictly on a basis that has to do with Smash - you should probably maybe do some reading about the history of the industry and some basic business stuff before continuing to call other people degenerates for liking a different kind of video game than you do.

I'm not calling them degenerates for liking a different video game system or series, I'm calling the degenerates in the sense that bad business practices are being circulated by the consumers themselves. But yeah, they remain successful. I don't like it, but that's the truth and I don't have a problem conceding to that.

 

[Soft Serve]

couple things
No one really wants to partner with nintendo, its not really a choice

You can't run a national/large Melee event without smash 4. Anything with a notable amount of publicity (anything not just a regional) or anything with actual sponsors (which are needed, you guys don't know the kind of financial disaster planning for potential large events without a baseline of cash or assistance from real companies) is a big target for Nintendo to get their hands on.
You can't run Melee without Smash 4 anymore. It just doesn't work once real names get involved. Not for a while at least. Negotiations with nintendo go roughly like N: "hey we heard you were running a large smash event and streaming? We want our name on it. Details." TOs: "We want to run melee, let us run melee and stream at this large event."N: "Okay, but you have to run smash 4." Then its either TOs: "Okay, we will run both" or TOs: "we don't have the recourses or potential pull do to smash 4 and sustain it" N: "oh, too bad bye."

Nintendo is still just looking at smash as a thing they are okay with letting exist but will stop if it hurts their image or get really involved with if they think it is worth it. Potential talk about a real nintendo sponsered smash 4 leauge, rumors/dreams like that, just for the wrong game.

I heard about paragon dropping PM a while ago and it didn't surprise me at all. PM barely snuck in last year.

It shouldn't surprise anyone at all anymore, we know the situation we are in and theres no point in getting mad over it, we can't change it. Our best bet is to just be self sufficient, etc, the call to arms we've had for a full year, and hope Nintendo drops the idea of creating leauges or decides that smash isn't worth commertially promoting anymore. At that point we should still be going strong and if nintendo has taken their hands off the smash community leader's shoulders we'd be fine to hop into multi-game nationals again.


Also PM without meteor canceling would be ********

 

[Bleck]

I'm not calling them degenerates for liking a different video game system or series, I'm calling the degenerates in the sense that bad business practices are being circulated by the consumers themselves.

what

At that point we should still be going strong

or maybe the community could band together and independently produce a game with similar mechanics to pm that they could then support themselves without constant fear of legal repercussion, instead of hoping that everything ****s up for two much larger groups of people that haven't done anything wrong

but, wait, no, that would take effort

Also PM without meteor canceling would be ********

the idea would be to remove the mechanic and then rebalance as needed

oh oh also refer to this post

Yeah, I can't imagine a game where characters can spike people reliably and quickly. A Smash game like that must definitely be unbalanced and unplayable!

 

[Fortress]

somebody told me R Dogs is the same movie as h8ful 8 in a different setting.

But holy ****.

Well, that person would be wrong in that Hateful 8 is Reservoir Dogs in a different setting, and not the other way around.

 

[Kurri ★]

or maybe the community could band together and independently produce a game with similar mechanics to pm that they could then support themselves without constant fear of legal repercussion, instead of hoping that everything ****s up for two much larger groups of people that haven't done anything wrong

but, wait, no, that would take effort

I mean, to start a game from scratch and achieve a quality => Project M is actually a lot of effort. And so far every attempt I've seen have either failed (Air Dash Online) or is just dingy indie **** (Rivals of Aether). If we can get the Skullgirls equivalent of Smash Bros (and by that I mean one that actually looks and plays great) then bravo, but I don't see that happen soon.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Pretty sure this all is an instance of haves vs. have nots, and I'm also pretty sure that the result will be the same as it always is with that sort of thing.

 

[PlateProp]

Felyne hunter in mhx is so amazing that I dropped a set today to play more felyne hunter

 

[CORY]

Felyne hunter in mhx is so amazing that I dropped a set today to play more felyne hunter

THIS IS NOT THE TOPIC AT HAND

 

[PlateProp]

THIS IS NOT THE TOPIC AT HAND

I DONT CARE FELYNE HUNTER IS SO GOOD MAN

 

[Bleck]

for ****'s sake when is MHX coming out in NA

 

[CORY]

I DONT CARE FELYNE HUNTER IS SO GOOD MAN

CONFORM! YOU'VE ALREADY STOPPED MAINING SQUIRTLE. THE PROCESS HAS BEGUN.

 

[PlateProp]

CONFORM! YOU'VE ALREADY STOPPED MAINING SQUIRTLE. THE PROCESS HAS BEGUN.

Dont make me main sonic

 

[SunJester]

"how dare these people do work for money instead of for nothing" ~ children on the internet

I'm guessing this is directed at me.

I'm sick of the rhetoric of "community growth" being used when what it really means is they want more money.

 

[Yung Mei]

why does anyone even care what d1 has to say anymore lmaooo
"just wait and see guys" is basically his ****in catchphrase


also, 3 days til i kick omgreys ass, can't wait

 

[Bleck]

I'm guessing this is directed at me.

I'm sick of the rhetoric of "community growth" being used when what it really means is they want more money.

Venues cost money. Transportation costs money. Setups cost money. Streaming costs money.

 

[Bazkip]

or maybe the community could band together and independently produce a game with similar mechanics to pm that they could then support themselves without constant fear of legal repercussion, instead of hoping that everything ****s up for two much larger groups of people that haven't done anything wrong

but, wait, no, that would take effort

http://www.wavedash.com/ ?

Though I guess we kinda know...absolutely nothing of what that's about.

 

[SunJester]

Venues cost money. Transportation costs money. Setups cost money. Streaming costs money.

Alright I don't care anymore. Maybe I'm raised differently but I always believed in putting other people first. smash is a ****ing buisness now and I hate it.

 

[SunJester]

I dont know why I care about this game, all it does is hurt. I thought maybe i coudl vicariously live through other people to remember the last time i was happy playing smash 64 with my friends but i dont think thats happening anymore.

The pills arent working. I had a breakdown cuz my blender wasnt working today.


I'm going to hold on until my brothers wedding, maybe until my nephew is born, but I dont think im making it to 30.


See y'all, its been fun.

 

[Bleck]

http://www.wavedash.com/ ?

Though I guess we kinda know...absolutely nothing of what that's about.

I think we can all agree that Wavedash Games' fancy website is not exactly reassuring

Alright I don't care anymore. Maybe I'm raised differently but I always believed in putting other people first. smash is a ****ing buisness now and I hate it.

expecting other people to hold tournaments for you, for free, for no other reason than you'd really like them to, is not what I would describe as selfless

I'm going to hold on until my brothers wedding, maybe until my nephew is born, but I dont think im making it to 30.

See y'all, its been fun.

please don't kill yourself over l-canceling or whatever other bull**** about Melee or PM that you think is supposed to make you happy

what you're feeling is not a result of Smash, or a community, or anything - it may be hard to accept, but depression isn't something that happens because of other things

you need to talk to someone who can help you understand that it's a problem that takes more than just pills to deal with

please don't hesitate to make a call if you're ever feeling like you can't take anymore - even if not to a dedicate specialist, than to someone who considers you a friend (ahem)

 

[Kurri ★]

I dont know why I care about this game, all it does is hurt. I thought maybe i coudl vicariously live through other people to remember the last time i was happy playing smash 64 with my friends but i dont think thats happening anymore.

The pills arent working. I had a breakdown cuz my blender wasnt working today.


I'm going to hold on until my brothers wedding, maybe until my nephew is born, but I dont think im making it to 30.


See y'all, its been fun.

HOLY MOLY, I hope you're not saying what I think you're saying!

I don't know your situation too well, but please hold on for longer than that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Edit: Whoa, minefield topic. Don't mind me, just asking a question.

Spoiler

Been messing around with some TAS stuff recently, just found out you can Perfect Pivot in both PM and Melee. It's a one frame window, so it's difficult, but it's definitely doable. Wanted to see if this is widely known or if there's anyone who uses it at all. From what I've tested, it's faster for most characters than wavedashing back by about 5 frames, which can make a difference in some situations. It's still obviously got the downsides Perfect Pivot inherently has, but I think it's at least interesting that it's even a thing that can be done. It's one of the only ATs that's doable in every Smash game there is.

It's just pivoting or dash pivoting in melee/PM. It's been known in melee probably for over a decade, and in PM since the beginning. PM actually has a more reasonable version where you press softly backwards on the control stick to trigger the pivot. You can also either turn off tap jump and hit the back upper corner to pivot, or already be holding A while dashing and hit the back upper corner on the cstick. All these things will trigger pivots in PM.

Also re: meteor canceling- Removing meteor canceling wouldn't break anything. Right now the only thing even good about meteors is they are usually COMPENSATED for meteor canceling with ridiculous hitboxes or greater strength. And then some meteors aren't compensated and all and they're just meh. Wolfs dair on aerial opponents is a meteor (on grounded opponents it's a spike) and it's ridiculously weak. I've had people jump out of pillar combos. That really AIN'T falco. It's really sad. ROB's dair is also pretty meh considering landing a slowish aerial that restricts drifting+falling requires a read usually. If you think there are "balance" problems if you remove meteor canceling, well they already exist lol. It'd be more reasonable to just remove the canceling and rework the stupidly enormous/powerful meteors, like falcon's/ganons meteors that extend a whole body width past their body and all the way up to their necks. Meteor canceling is a major hype killer. Remember that time sethlon got a sick combo on m2k that ended in a spike and took the stock? Me neither. Roy didn't even have a spike. m2k just meteor canceled that ridiculously strong move. Let's just ignore hitstun and what not. Makes sense.

Oh well. PMDev is ded. No more good design updates. RIP light shields and melee tethers and such, as well. Guess my wolf will just have to not dair or w/e.