Project M Social Thread Gold

[eideeiit]

Idk, there are some instances of imperfect/asymmetrical information in FGs, like throwing fbs as Ryu, for the duration of the startup you know how fast it'll be but the opponent doesn't wtc.

But yeah, calling not knowing your opponents mind imperfect info is dumb.

I actually love the manipulation of information in pvp games. Few things feel better than baiting your opponent into bad switches in Pokemon by using weird moves.

Also I rarely watch anime movies but this weekend I checked out Ninja Scroll and Sword of the Stranger to see how the samurai-fight genre had matured in 20 years. However, comparisons are difficult to draw, since Ninja Scroll goes full "dumb but enjoyable that doesn't even try to be grown-up", while Sword of the Stranger tries to keep some sense to and doesn't utterly fail but still doesn't manage to keep it realistic. It also goes a tad cliche-fest. I guess that's the genre though. Both are an enjoyable watch and feature some well executed fights, but don't waste a good night for really delving into the movie for either one. Fastfood with frinds I'd say.

 

[Deleted member]

guess who here has solid fundamentals

<------ This guy

 

[Mansta]

Ooh I like this soundtrack arrangement.

Also the original soundtrack is really good too.

 

[PlateProp]

guess who here has solid fundamentals

<------ This guy

how can you be solid when you're made of pizza

 

[Mystletaynn]

Playing with some friends, as G&W I just did downthrow jab regrab on him from zero to death, ended with Dthrow Dsmash. 4 stocks in a row.

I taught him what teching was after the game lol.

 

[KayB]

I'm actually reading Jojo right now, and I binged read since Part 1 and now I'm on Part 6: Stone Ocean. What's everyone's opinions on Parts 1-5?

 

[Leafeon]

guess who here has solid fundamentals

<------ This guy

Spoiler

You still stink like pizza

well. pizza doesn't stink...
but you stink

 

[Vashimus]

I'm actually reading Jojo right now, and I binged read since Part 1 and now I'm on Part 5: Stone Ocean. What's everyone's opinions on Parts 1-4?

Part 5
Stone Ocean

*eye twitch*

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Part 5 is Vento Aureo, KayB . Part 6 is Stone Ocean. Both are...of mixed quality. I wasn't a huge fan of either arc, but if I had to pick between them, I'd go with Stone Ocean every time.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KayB]

Part 5
Stone Ocean

*eye twitch*

Oh right, oops. I keep forgetting Vento Aureo was a thing.

 

[Jolteon]

I'm actually reading Jojo right now, and I binged read since Part 1 and now I'm on Part 5: Stone Ocean. What's everyone's opinions on Parts 1-4?

3>2>4>1 imho.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

As for my opinions of Parts 1-4? For me it goes

4 > 2 > 3 > 1

Smooth Criminal

 

[steelguttey]

new waifu, new premium, same ****posts

mei is the actual definitive best girl tho

 

[Vashimus]

Oh right, oops. I keep forgetting Vento Aureo was a thing.

Probably the weakest entry in the series, so it's understandable.

Same as Smooth Criminal's. 4 > 2 > 3 > 1

 

[KayB]

3>2>4>1 imho.

Probably the weakest entry in the series, so it's understandable.

Same as Smooth Criminal's. 4 > 2 > 3 > 1

As for my opinions of Parts 1-4? For me it goes

4 > 2 > 3 > 1

Smooth Criminal

Well, including part 5, I'd say 4 > 3 > 2 > 5 >= 1

 

[Vashimus]

Thinking back, I'm gonna switch 2 and 3.

Spoiler

As fun as Battle Tendency is, Joseph pretty much carries the whole thing. He's the most entertaining character in that part aside from Stroheim, and is seemingly the only who can do anything of major significance. While Jotaro and Polnareff command quite a lot of screen-time in Stardust Crusaders, every character in the crew had a chance in the spotlight at some point. I don't think Caesar actually did anything the whole chapter besides being an asshole and dying to Wham. Lisa Lisa getting bodied was disappointing too. Part 2 never really got stale thanks to Joseph's attitude and cleverness, but without him it would've just fell apart.

 

[Strong Badam]

guess who here has solid fundamentals

<------ This guy

Hey, can you teach me how to dash dance?

 

[Lizalfos]

Okay hold on a second, who the hell here once told me that Smash isn't a perfect information game? They backed it up with something like "You don't know what option your opponent will choose in neutral, therefore it's not perfect info", but the definition of a perfect info game is "an economic situation or game in which knowledge about other market participants or players is available to all participants; every player observes other players' moves, but may lack some information on others' payoffs, or on the structure of the game."

If what I'm thinking about it is right, that's like saying chess isn't a perfect info game because despite having the ability to know of every possible choice that your opponent can and cannot do, you don't know which option they'll pick if presented with more than one.

Lamo I think that was me.

fighting games are perfect information games by design lmao and anything that goes against that is often viewed as jank

see gnw's throws, the opponent knows which way they're going but you dont

But that is still perfect info b/c you know all 4 of his options. That is literally just what Sax explained.

This whole perfect info thing came up b/c of G&W iirc. So even though I was wrong about the definition of perfect info, I was correct in believing that G&W's throws were no different than any other 50/50 or whatever mix-ups in the game.

What is important is that the information of the options available is know with 100% certainty, not that you know what they are going to do next 100% of the time. That would be boring and would ruin games. If all fighting games were meant to be that you never had to guess your opponent's next action, everyone would perry 100% of things in 3rd Strike or w/e.

So yeah, all fighting games are perfect info, but I still found a way for you to be wrong about G&W's design. Now I can be smug and satisfied and alone.

 

[shairn]

It's not really comparable to other 50/50 mixups because at least you can reasonably react to some like Sheik's dthrow/bthrow.

Or I guess you could talk about DI mixups like how you can DI Ness dthrow back or forward so Ness has to react? But then it still has to do with Ness' reaction. However there is no reaction element to G&W's throws, unless I'm fast enough to look at my opponent's controller.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Lamo I think that was me.

But that is still perfect info b/c you know all 4 of his options. That is literally just what Sax explained.

This whole perfect info thing came up b/c of G&W iirc. So even though I was wrong about the definition of perfect info, I was correct in believing that G&W's throws were no different than any other 50/50 or whatever mix-ups in the game.

What is important is that the information of the options available is know with 100% certainty, not that you know what they are going to do next 100% of the time. That would be boring and would ruin games. If all fighting games were meant to be that you never had to guess your opponent's next action, everyone would perry 100% of things in 3rd Strike or w/e.

So yeah, all fighting games are perfect info, but I still found a way for you to be wrong about G&W's design. Now I can be smug and satisfied and alone.

no because I was referring to gnw's options AFTER the throw animation, which you have no way of reasonably reacting to unless you're plate kappa

it's just like the fog of war in sc, you know the possibilities of what they can do but you don't know the actual options until after your opponent does

fighting games are essentially perfect information games all the way up until reaction/thought processing speed starts to come into effect

 

[Lizalfos]

It's not really comparable to other 50/50 mixups because at least you can reasonably react to some like Sheik's dthrow/bthrow.

Or I guess you could talk about DI mixups like how you can DI Ness dthrow back or forward so Ness has to react? But then it still has to do with Ness' reaction. However there is no reaction element to G&W's throws, unless I'm fast enough to look at my opponent's controller.

But this is being close minded, why can't this specific character have a true DI mix up on his throws? Lot of characters already have very quick animations that are difficult to react to in the first place, so this is hardly a stretch. Plus getting guaranteed combos off of throws is a very common thing.

When one character has you guess to avoid damage, however, the whole thing is janky according to Karp. There is also the fact that you shouldn't be getting grabbed super often anyway. If you are really free and getting grabbed all the time, there are comparable difficult/worse MUs. Sheik and Falcon say hi.

I really believe that even non-perfect info games like card games can be competitive and actually more interesting due to the random element making decision making more difficult. It really promotes a risk reward style of play. It is fun to predict a sequence of events and seeing how you can react to how it really plays out.

no because I was referring to gnw's options AFTER the throw animation, which you have no way of reasonably reacting to unless you're plate kappa

it's just like the fog of war in sc, you know the possibilities of what they can do but you don't know the actual options until after your opponent does

fighting games are essentially perfect information games all the way up until reaction/thought processing speed starts to come into effect

You aren't supposed to react to the throw, that is the mechanic, suck it up, there is precedent for it existing that way and its fine. As for follow ups, you can either expect the optimal punish or the hammer and they are equally good either way. At least Fox isn't Up-air death comboing you and you have a chance.

Gdubs is 2 layers of ****ing yourself. 1) You got grabbed, 2) you failed the mixup. Then the 3rd step is you get punished, and who cares that he got the Nine, there are countess examples of character killing off throws in this game. Plus Game&Watch doesn't know what will happen either so it can be to his detriment too, he can do worse than normal using hammer. Plus it has been homogenized so really you are going to complain about subtle rng that works both ways?

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Stop complaining about silly things in the games you play and git gud enough that said things work to your advantage, not your disadvantage.

 

[Mansta]

Probably the weakest entry in the series, so it's understandable.

Same as Smooth Criminal's. 4 > 2 > 3 > 1

I really liked Vento though, it's one of my favorites below parts 7 and 4. Although I enjoyed part 6 it seemed to drag on far too long, it was the only one that I took frequent breaks from reading.
My 1-4 list is exactly the same as yours and Smooth Criminal's, it's pretty solid.

 

[Yung Mei]

yo any pms still need housing for genesis? we might have room open in our room for 1 more person

 

[PlateProp]

just watched the first part of digimon tri

music sucked

Tai is too obsessed with people dying in the real world (understandable, but the show hangs on it way more than it should)

music really sucked

Other than that it was actually pretty decent

too bad the next part isint coming out for a damn year

 

[Soft Serve]

If Mei asks for money I just assume its for butt plugs.

And the social thread comes full circle once again

 

[Yung Mei]

new waifu, new premium, same ****posts

mei is the actual definitive best girl tho

stop asking me out, im saving myself for hotel bae you ****

 

[Frost | Odds]

guess who here has solid fundamentals

<------ This guy

Back to work, slave

 

[Soft Serve]

guess who here has solid fundamentals

<------ This guy

Spoiler

 

[KayB]

Thinking back, I'm gonna switch 2 and 3.

Spoiler

As fun as Battle Tendency is, Joseph pretty much carries the whole thing. He's the most entertaining character in that part aside from Stroheim, and is seemingly the only who can do anything of major significance. While Jotaro and Polnareff command quite a lot of screen-time in Stardust Crusaders, every character in the crew had a chance in the spotlight at some point. I don't think Caesar actually did anything the whole chapter besides being an ******* and dying to Wham. Lisa Lisa getting bodied was disappointing too. Part 2 never really got stale thanks to Joseph's attitude and cleverness, but without him it would've just fell apart.

Spoiler

Yeah that's pretty much how I felt about Part 2. Joseph was pretty much the only thing holding the manga together and thus the only thing I really cared about. Some might disagree with me, but I didn't think the villains were all that memorable either.

I really liked Vento though, it's one of my favorites below parts 7 and 4. Although I enjoyed part 6 it seemed to drag on far too long, it was the only one that I took frequent breaks from reading.
My 1-4 list is exactly the same as yours and Smooth Criminal's, it's pretty solid.

Spoiler

I didn't like Vento that much, but I also don't think it's as bad as everyone says it is.
I think the battles were a lot more dramatic compared to those of Diamond is Unbreakable and to an extent Stardust Crusaders just because the majority of the stands were a lot more serious and creative in comparison. The battles were also drawn out longer, allowing for some more depth rather than one or two chapter fights (though some battles I thought lasted for a bit too long).

The setting was vastly different from previous parts but still carried the essence of adventure from Part 3 while still having this sense of urgency and thriller that drove the plot further. I also appreciated the character designs even though there were some I thought were ugly. And as a final note, I absolutely adore that all the stands were named after famous bands, songs, and albums, and I was so happy to find out the tradition was carried on in Stone Ocean.

But pretty much everything else about Vento falls short. As cool as Giorno's powers are, they still sort of act as a deus ex machina plot device. A lot of the stands in the series start becoming a lot more convoluted, and there are still some stands I don't fully understand (King Crimson was the worst of this). While Mista and Abbacchio were cool characters, Narancia was really lame cause he was like a punching bag for the entirety of Vento. And nobody knows what the **** happened to Fugo. Buccellati ended up being more of a main character in the end compared to Giorno, and despite Giorno being very clever and powerful, he ironically had the least presence out of all the main characters. The main antagonist was also not memorable at all in my opinion, especially when you compare him to someone like Kira or Dio. The worst thing about Vento was just that it didn't really highlight what I thought made Jojo stand out from normal manga, and a lot of the times I forgot I was reading Jojo and not some other manga.

In terms of fight scenes, Vento is probably one of the strongest. But in terms of characters, I thought that Vento was by far the weakest, and often times its the characters as much as the fight scenes that make Jojo as memorable as it is.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler

I made this image >___>

Thx for using it as a reaction image though, makes me happy to see others use it

 

[PlateProp]

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Vashimus

You're definitely right about Joseph carrying the whole thing, but I can't bring myself to knock Part 2 down for it. Not to mention that I felt like Araki captured the essence of the old pulp adventure comic perfectly in this installment (even moreso than Part 1 in ways). Friggin' Nazis, vampires, guns, globetrotting, ancient artifacts...it's part of the reason why I got into the series to start with. I grew up reading that kinda stuff. It's dear to me.

The only reason Diamond is Invincible trumps Battle Tendency in my book is because of the fact that it had more memorable characters, a compelling villain (burn me at the stake for this, but I liked Kira better than Dio), and a better overall story (I'm a sucker for mysteries, and I for one liked the fact that Araki was aiming for that).

KayB

Well, there's one fight scene in particular in Stone Ocean that blows nearly all of the fight scenes in Vento Aureo out of the water. You'll know what I'm talking about when you get to it. IMO, it's one of the most beautifully drawn hand-to-hand combat scenes that I've ever seen in manga.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KayB]

a compelling villain (burn me at the stake for this, but I liked Kira better than Dio)

I actually completely agree with you.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I haven't played PM for ages but there's a major coming up in Australia and I decided to enter it. Is Ivysaur still campy and brainless af? I think I'll play it.

 

[KayB]

I haven't played PM for ages but there's a major coming up in Australia and I decided to enter it. Is Ivysaur still campy and brainless af? I think I'll play it.

Salt incoming.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Salt incoming.

hue, i just want to play the most brainless character with the most reward

there's a brawl tournament too so i decided to play snake

i wonder

does this make me a bad person?

 

[Frost | Odds]

hue, i just want to play the most brainless character with the most reward

Pit imo

 

[MechWarriorNY]

KayB Regarding King Crimson...it just works because

 

[Mansta]

mfw the smash subreddit now has a bad Smash 4 theme.