Project M Social Thread Gold

[trash?]

twitch in general has helped divide all of the different smash communities in my eyes because it has driven games to be spectator sports or die in the process, and it's also now the focus of sponsorships and big business

initially it was a good idea because being a content creator got a lot of information out there and streaming assists in that significantly, particularly with fighting games and mobas, but once big names start putting money into the business, people start turning back on what they stood for

i always felt we needed to separate from the community, but a lot of the bad blood and salt between the communities stems from what gets attention and viewership and what people say as a result of it being so

pm was in the spotlight during 3.02 so a lot of people were willfully ignorant and gave the short end of the stick to the brawl community, so the reaction to when nintendo put forward sponsor dollars and gimr dropped pm from the main stream for those sponsor bucks was not only expected but ironic

and smash 4's about to feel it again, which brings me again to say that i feel like streaming has only made melee pull out ahead and not fumble about because of putting the viewers first and not the players

but that's just me

I sort of assumed everyone understood that you either had a player-friendly scene, or one that makes a whole bunch of money. there's no such thing as someone who got paid absurd amounts doing something competitively that nobody's ever heard of, after all, you need a bunch of eyeballs on you, and you need those eyeballs to be willing to pay for things, 'das capitalism in competition for you

except in recent months, I'm realizing that this isn't the case when community leaders are suddenly confused as to why tournaments that are good experiences in person are so lambasted by the greater community. I'm so confused by those reactions, because I'm just some dope that's on the internet all day and even I knew this was going to happen

 

[Helsong]

It's because it's a new thing for them, perhaps? Melee had next to no spotlight three years ago, and now it's got a ton of attention, and just being a Smash game means good things can happen for you(see: Smash4). People aren't good at adapting to new, bigger, and more complex things like this. It's a larger scale, with it's own demands on tournaments, players, and the community at large, and while I do think the vast majority of community leaders realize this, they're just not 100% equipped to deal with the growing pains.

If you want a tight knit community, then you don't go big. That's always been a thing. Look at any other community, even outside of esports. I mean, you could even use /r/smashbros as a good example if you really wanted, since that's in vogue to complain about. Compare it now to it a few years ago. Like night and day.

 

[SunJester]

PM tho.

<3

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

PM tho.

<3

What this guy said.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

meanwhile marvel is dying while melee is growing

there's enough irony in that to last until the next evo

 

[Helsong]

I dunno, if PM got as big as Melee is right now, I think we'd be facing the exact same issues.
However, I think there's some caution to be had that, despite PM being grassroots, it can still suffer from the same issues plaguing the Melee scene right now with streams and viewers. People still expect quality streams. If for whatever reason viewers begin asking for the same level of quality as major esports, then....we run into some issues. I don't see it happening though, just given that PM appeals to a smaller audience than Melee, and doesn't attract a massive one, as cool as it would be.

But yeah, PM tho <3

 

[Bleck]

Melee has a huge scene right now because advertising executives have trained people for the past decade to be hyper-obsessive with the concept of nostalgia so that they can get away with constantly rehashing the same old **** to the same morons

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

I dunno, if PM got as big as Melee is right now, I think we'd be facing the exact same issues.
However, I think there's some caution to be had that, despite PM being grassroots, it can still suffer from the same issues plaguing the Melee scene right now with streams and viewers. People still expect quality streams. If for whatever reason viewers begin asking for the same level of quality as major esports, then....we run into some issues. I don't see it happening though, just given that PM appeals to a smaller audience than Melee, and doesn't attract a massive one, as cool as it would be.

But yeah, PM tho <3

I just want people to see me do some stupid **** like ultra late bacon into DACUS tech chase.

 

[Helsong]

Melee has a huge scene right now because advertising executives have trained people for the past decade to be hyper-obsessive with the concept of nostalgia so that they can get away with constantly rehashing the same old **** to the same morons

Yeah..I don't think Melee's scene is currently surviving on nothing but nostalgia. If there wasn't an enjoyable game with an evolving meta underneath, then people wouldn't still be playing it, and wouldn't have been playing pre-Evo 2013.
Old games can still be good.

 

[Grey Belnades]

Basically, get the hell out of the casinos when you inevitably lose at Evo. Try it for a bit, then head for greener and more pleasurable pastures. Just retain common sense, and don't listen to the girls when they say they want to take you back for a good time.

Don't tell me what to do. I 'm going to need a gal after I get out of EVO pools.

"Miss, I just experienced a very tough hardship. I got knocked out of pools by Will. I need you to hold my hand and tell me it's going to be OK."

But really, I need ideas what to do in Vegas. I am planning on hitting the casinos though.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

Man this is horrible, you guys gotta play Smash 4.

Even if this was a joke it would be too much to bare. I'll stick to Brawl Orginal thank you very much.

 

[Bleck]

If there wasn't an enjoyable game with an evolving meta underneath, then people wouldn't still be playing it, and wouldn't have been playing pre-Evo 2013.

I honestly don't follow Melee enough to know how there's an "evolving meta" underneath it, and I would love for someone to explain it to me in a way that makes it actually sound interesting

but until that happens I'm gonna go ahead and continue to assume that when people say that they mean "people are really figuring out how to play Fox now"

Old games can still be good.

just because something can be doesn't mean that it is

 

[Grey Belnades]

Even if this was a joke it would be too much to bare. I'll stick to Brawl Orginal thank you very much.

Revival of Brawl for EVO 2015.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

I honestly don't follow Melee enough to know how there's an "evolving meta" underneath it, and I would love for someone to explain it to me in a way that makes it actually sound interesting. But until that happens I'm gonna go ahead and continue to assume that when people say that they mean "people are really figuring out how to play Fox now"

Its like you were reading my mind or some ****.

I want in on this.

 

[Helsong]

I honestly don't follow Melee enough to know how there's an "evolving meta" underneath it, and I would love for someone to explain it to me in a way that makes it actually sound interesting

but until that happens I'm gonna go ahead and continue to assume that when people say that they mean "people are really figuring out how to play Fox now"



just because something can be doesn't mean that it is

Personally, I find Melee's meta fascinating because of how all characters in the top tier are being optimized, not just Fox. There's a heavy amount of counterplay going on, and to me that's pretty interesting. I understand that's not appealing to everyone, however. Nor is this even a good overview of Melee's meta-I'm certainly not well-versed in it's history to explain it well. That being said, given the way you're phrasing things, I doubt anyone could explain Melee's meta in a way that's satisfactory to you. If you don't like the game, that's fine, but saying something stupid/ignorant like "Melee's current success is due to nostalgia" is...well, obviously wrong. It's easy enough to see that there's more motivations at play here.
I'd also like to point out that "good" is largely subjective, and should be taken that way. If you think it's not good, doesn't mean it isn't.

In the case that you're just trolling and like being a cynic, then I suppose I've just wasted 30 seconds of my life. So uh..congrats?

Don't tell me what to do. I 'm going to need a gal after I get out of EVO pools.

"Miss, I just experienced a very tough hardship. I got knocked out of pools by Will. I need you to hold my hand and tell me it's going to be OK."

But really, I need ideas what to do in Vegas. I am planning on hitting the casinos though.

If you need a gal, then look strong and charm one that's not a stripper or a prostitute. Seriously, if you're at a strip club and a girl tries to entice you to come back with her so she can "show you a better time" or whatever, don't do it. You will lose all your money, seriously.

Stuff to do and sights to see in and around Vegas:
Red Rock Canyon, Bellagio Fountains, Bellagio Conservatory/Botanical Gardens, Various cafes, etc. You should also just walk the Strip, there's bound to be something to catch your eye. If you can afford it, there's some sweet performances that go on in the various theatres.
If you're a minor or underage or something...uh, well your options get kinda limited. Tour the Casinos, they've got some interesting architecture/displays. A lot of the stuff in the list above applies, still.

Just do your research and figure out what's good for you. I went a long time ago, so stuff might have changed/gotten better/gotten worse.

 

[Bleck]

Personally, I find Melee's meta fascinating because of how all characters in the top tier are being optimized, not just Fox.

all three of them, wow

If you don't like the game, that's fine, but saying something stupid/ignorant like "Melee's current success is due to nostalgia" is...well, obviously wrong.

it's not "because of nostalgia", it's because of an overwhelming need for a lot of people (especially "fans" of entertainment media) to lock in their identity as the kind of person who thinks that things used to be better and that everything new is bad

like, the existence of PM literally disproves the idea that Melee's popularity has anything to do with any internal quality, in that PM is literally "Melee But Better" and people have always and still talk down about it as some kind of inferior version of Melee

even you yourself try to argue that Melee is popular for other reasons and can't help admitting that you have no idea why; you just have to disagree because the idea that the media's manipulated your perception of something's quality is offensive to you

saying that I'm making a claim that's "stupid/ignorant" while simultaneously implying that you have no idea why you believe what you believe is more or less just proving my point; it essentially boils down to "what you're saying is wrong because it's not what everyone else is saying"

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

there's rocks around vegas, specifically red rock canyon park

I would just say skip all of the vegas stuff and go spend some time there after being knocked out of pools

 

[Helsong]

all three of them, wow



it's not "because of nostalgia", it's because of an overwhelming need for a lot of people (especially "fans" of entertainment media) to lock in their identity as the kind of person who thinks that things used to be better and that everything new is bad

like, the existence of PM literally disproves the idea that Melee's popularity has anything to do with any internal quality, in that PM is literally "Melee But Better" and people have always and still talk down about it as some kind of inferior version of Melee

even you yourself try to argue that Melee is popular for other reasons and can't help admitting that you have no idea why; you just have to disagree because the idea that the media's manipulated your perception of something's quality is offensive to you

saying that I'm making a claim that's "stupid/ignorant" while simultaneously implying that you have no idea why you believe what you believe is more or less just proving my point; it essentially boils down to "what you're saying is wrong because it's not what everyone else is saying"

I never said I wasn't able to explain why I didn't like it-I in fact did explain why I believed what I believed, I just can't fully explain the other aspects of Melee's meta to you. And while there are other reasons, I don't hold those other reasons, because PM tends to satisfy me more. Go ask a Melee player, I'm primarily a PM player first.
Personally, I don't mind there being a limited character pool, I find it interesting to watch, especially when things are being optimized to the point they have. I find it thought-provoking, and I've already explained why.

Also, the idea that PM is "Melee but better" is..questionable. You can't compare the games like that, because even what you would consider Melee's flaws(the limited viability of characters, I'm assuming is one) can still be boons to a game's meta by someone else's idea of what makes a good game. You just said you don't follow Melee much at all, so how are you able to make the argument that PM is a better Melee? Isn't that subjective as well? Isn't your own ignorance of Melee coloring your ability to properly judge it?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

evo is the brawl of smash tournaments

 

[Bleck]

Also, the idea that PM is "Melee but better" is..questionable. You can't compare the games like that

are you actually arguing that PM, the mod that intends to restore all the Melee characters to their Melee forms and make the game play more like Melee, isn't really like Melee

is that actually what's happening here

I never said I wasn't able to explain why I didn't like it-I in fact did explain why I believed what I believed, I just can't fully explain the other aspects of Melee's meta to you.

so... you're argument here is that you can't answer my question, but that I shouldn't act like you can't answer my question

you know what dude I think you've done it I think you've made an argument so dumb that even I don't want to waste time debating it

 

[Kurri ★]

evo is the brawl of smash tournaments

What does this mean?

are you actually arguing that PM, the mod that intends to restore all the Melee characters to their Melee forms and make the game play more like Melee, isn't really like Melee

Well yeah... Roy is actually viable...

 

[Grey Belnades]

If you need a gal, then look strong and charm one that's not a stripper or a prostitute. Seriously, if you're at a strip club and a girl tries to entice you to come back with her so she can "show you a better time" or whatever, don't do it. You will lose all your money, seriously.

Stuff to do and sights to see in and around Vegas:
Red Rock Canyon, Bellagio Fountains, Bellagio Conservatory/Botanical Gardens, Various cafes, etc. You should also just walk the Strip, there's bound to be something to catch your eye. If you can afford it, there's some sweet performances that go on in the various theatres.
If you're a minor or underage or something...uh, well your options get kinda limited. Tour the Casinos, they've got some interesting architecture/displays. A lot of the stuff in the list above applies, still.

Just do your research and figure out what's good for you. I went a long time ago, so stuff might have changed/gotten better/gotten worse.

Nah. I was only joking. I guess my friends' idea of getting a call girl and just having an out of the norm idea like playing Mario Kart, taking dance lessons, or watching a movie stuck on to me since EVO's like a week and a half away.

I guess since it's my first time in Vegas, I just don't know where to start. I did remember though that my Airbnb host has a guide of the eateries, bars, and stuff available. And if I was a minor, I think Young Teen Grey would be my current tag.

there's rocks around vegas, specifically red rock canyon park

I would just say skip all of the vegas stuff and go spend some time there after being knocked out of pools

I live in a desert so rocks are already part of my life.

evo is the brawl of smash tournaments

I wish. Then I'd have a reason to go to Vegas every year.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Bleck, you're arguing for the sake of arguing again. Please stop.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Bleck]

done and done

 

[SpiderMad]

If I won a skype chat with PPMD to have over his stream, I'd give it to Bleck to see if PP could reach him with some sense

 

[Helsong]

are you actually arguing that PM, the mod that intends to restore all the Melee characters to their Melee forms and make the game play more like Melee, isn't really like Melee

is that actually what's happening here



so... you're argument here is that you can't answer my question, but that I shouldn't act like you can't answer my question

you know what dude I think you've done it I think you've made an argument so dumb that even I don't want to waste time debating it

I literally went on to explain why the way you're comparing them isn't working. Second, I never said you shouldn't act like I can't answer your question-that's entirely not what I said at all. I presented you a single counterargument. I never claimed that I could explain Melee's meta to you, what I took issue with was you stating that I couldn't explain why I liked it-when I clearly did. If you're going to pick statements to argue with, at least make the effort to argue against the right ones.

I'm beginning to regret ever taking your statement with even a modicum of legitimacy.

 

[Bleck]

buddy your explanation as to why you like Melee was "because people are good at it" and I'm having trouble seeing why I'm supposed to care

I'd ask you to explain why that matters but I mean we've seen how good you are at answering the questions I actually ask, so how about we just call it quits instead

I'll go on being a cynical douchebag and you can go on pretending that you have your own opinions, everyone wins

 

[Helsong]

Couldn't have said it better myself. I'll drop it.

 

[Lizalfos]

Why are politicians playing capture the flag?
They should be more serious about their 'jobs'.

Getting rid of that flag helps our economy and USC's football team, according to Steve Spurrier.

 

[Lizalfos]

are you actually arguing that PM, the mod that intends to restore all the Melee characters to their Melee forms and make the game play more like Melee, isn't really like Melee

is that actually what's happening here



so... you're argument here is that you can't answer my question, but that I shouldn't act like you can't answer my question

you know what dude I think you've done it I think you've made an argument so dumb that even I don't want to waste time debating it

Once you guys were doing the whole, "M'LAY IS SO BAHD PM IS SO MUCH BETTER", thing and I pointed out they were the same game and you all just kept circlejerking.

Edit: and if Nostalgia drove everything then we would all be Super Mario World speedrunners.

 

[Jaedrik]

you know what dude I think you've done it I think you've made an argument so dumb that even I don't want to waste time debating it

Didn't you say this like two days ago only to get dunked on?

 

[Lizalfos]

But Bleck was right, he was a pretty big argumentative neckbeard.

Stare into the abyss and the abyss stares back.

 

[Bleck]

Didn't you say this like two days ago only to get dunked on?

I'm not sure what you're referring to

 

[Jaedrik]

Yes, but, muh humility

 

[Lizalfos]

I'm not sure what you're referring to

FE: Fates gay conversion.

 

[Jaedrik]

Edit: Lizalfos got it

 

[Bleck]

oh you mean when I said that I heard something about that thing and some guy came in and wrote a huge rant about how awesome he was for managing to not be offended by anything from a presumably lofty position of privilege, and I responded with uh confusion and a slow, sad shaking of the head

if you think his lame rants were me getting "dunked on" then you've got pretty low standards, pal

 

[FPSWalrus]

ROB IS SO GOOD
IVE BEEN PLAYING TINK ALL MY LIFE WHAT IS MONSTER ITS ****ING GREAT
I GOT TO ROUND 2 IN BRACKET
FOR THE FIRST TIME
AAAAAAAAA

 

[Lizalfos]

I'm so good at, Facts and Trivia: Bleck!

ROB IS SO GOOD
IVE BEEN PLAYING TINK ALL MY LIFE WHAT IS MONSTER ITS ****ING GREAT
I GOT TO ROUND 2 IN BRACKET
FOR THE FIRST TIME
AAAAAAAAA

But if it is double elim don't you get to r2 automatically? :l

oh you mean when I said that I heard something about that thing and some guy came in and wrote a huge rant about how awesome he was for managing to not be offended by anything from a presumably lofty position of privilege, and I responded with uh confusion and a slow, sad shaking of the head

if you think his lame rants were me getting "dunked on" then you've got pretty low standards, pal

Of course we have low standards, we

1. watch anime
2. play a children's party game competitively when we could play something more conducive to competition
3. regularly visit forum about said game and squander our lives making small talk with strangers

I have such low standards that you are like my favourite person on the boards.

 

[mimgrim]

I would take Melee more seriously if I could just change control options, until then (so basically never) I will just continue trolling and doing stupid stuff when I play it. /I am QoL spoiled

I wish Brawl wasn't dead because I think it is a legitimately good game with really deep mindgame interactions and I enjoy it just as much as Project M. /I like a game that is generally hated almost everywhere

Project M is just a better version of Melee with more characters, the fluidness feeling Brawl has for me, and most importnatly I can actually edit the goddamn controls. /A mod is basically my fave Smash game

I'm currently in a state of limbo with Smash 4. /I can't decide one way or the other on how I feel about this game other then that it feels the most alien of all the Smash games in terms of what safe play and crap is in Smash

Smash 64 is Smash 64. /Nuff said

That about sums up how I feel about each Smash game currently.