Project M Social Thread Gold

[PlateProp]

There's another person that plays pm where I live

What the ****

 

[Soft Serve]

Guys

The difference between evening up a crew battle and throwing it

https://streamable.com/kx4x

grab the ****ing ledges

 

[ociplaC]

i wish it was 2010 again so i could relive getting into touhou for the first time

i dont really care for it anymore

except meiling cuz shes the bae

When I first saw your tag I thought it was referring Mei Ling from Metal Gear Solid.
...I don't know anything about Touhou, shut up!

 

[Rawkobo]

Guys

The difference between evening up a crew battle and throwing it

https://streamable.com/kx4x

grab the ****ing ledges

that throw is literally one of the saddest things i've seen in a while

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

Whats the matchup for Gdubs and Charzard? Seems to be more for Zard, but thats just from my experience. Anybody got some data for this?

 

[PlateProp]

AID MONEY FOR FALL CONFIRMED

GOIN BACK TO COLLEGE SO MCH HYPE

 

[trash?]

welp, I thought I was super-smart for guessing melee on sunday and thinking "well obviously, this means ssb4 will be saturday night"

nope, 8am semis and then noon top 8. between this and the defiance mrwizard gets whenever a good player even mildly questions his weird decisions, I feel like we're about to get another evo 2008 brawl

 

[Rawkobo]

welp, I thought I was super-smart for guessing melee on sunday and thinking "well obviously, this means ssb4 will be saturday night"

nope, 8am semis and then noon top 8. between this and the defiance mrwizard gets whenever a good player even mildly questions his weird decisions, I feel like we're about to get another evo 2008 brawl

a fair amount of the community already wasn't okay with his decision to run customs, and then this happens

and in the back of my mind i hear those whispers about the gap in our communities only growing wider

 

[Grey Belnades]

When you're a poor mexican kid with a family that buys bootleg movies and has no cable i really wish i was.

The benefit of being a border town.

 

[trash?]

the thing is, one of the reasons it should've been last on saturday night isn't just "it's disrespectful otherwise to ~900 players who went solely for that game" (which is reasonably valid), but also it ensures that nobody will get mad if the top 8 goes on for too long

I mean, I'm well aware that the reason KI and T7 took those slots was literally just dev money, but I'm not expecting ssb4 to come back next year, idk

 

[Helsong]

It's honestly ridiculous. Obviously, some game needs to get that morning slot. But the game that gets the morning slot being the same game that has to run a night slot the night before? C'mon. Do they not want Smash4 players to be well-rested? Anyone want to start taking bets on how many are going to sleep through the next day? I mean, the Smash4 community hasn't been getting along with Evo that well already. I largely don't give a damn about Smash4's scene, but this is pretty nuts. The morning->noon slot isn't super bad, but the friday night slot on top of that...?

Really doesn't bode well for Smash the next year(Melee has a good chance of coming back. Smash4, maybe not). And then there's the people saying "well, we should be grateful we're at Evo at all!" which is..a bit too far? Be grateful the event is hosting you, but they shouldn't be utterly immune to criticism.

 

[Rawkobo]

the thing is, one of the reasons it should've been last on saturday night isn't just "it's disrespectful otherwise to ~900 players who went solely for that game" (which is reasonably valid), but also it ensures that nobody will get mad if the top 8 goes on for too long

I mean, I'm well aware that the reason KI and T7 took those slots was literally just dev money, but I'm not expecting ssb4 to come back next year, idk

pretty likely tbh :/

 

[SpiderMad]

Man this is horrible, you guys gotta play Smash 4.

 

[Rawkobo]

It's honestly ridiculous. Obviously, some game needs to get that morning slot. But the game that gets the morning slot being the same game that has to run a night slot the night before? C'mon. Do they not want Smash4 players to be well-rested? Anyone want to start taking bets on how many are going to sleep through the next day? I mean, the Smash4 community hasn't been getting along with Evo that well already. I largely don't give a damn about Smash4's scene, but this is pretty nuts. The morning->noon slot isn't super bad, but the friday night slot on top of that...?

Really doesn't bode well for Smash the next year(Melee has a good chance of coming back. Smash4, maybe not). And then there's the people saying "well, we should be grateful we're at Evo at all!" which is..a bit too far? Be grateful the event is hosting you, but they shouldn't be utterly immune to criticism.

imho after watching melee last year and watching everything else at evo, melee was the least hype thing there next to maybe killer instinct

i get why it means something for us to be a part of the fgc in some way but i've felt as long as i've been in and out of the scene that smash is its own thing and shouldn't try to rope itself into anything else

 

[Helsong]

Nah, I agree that Smash shouldn't feel that it has to part of the FGC-it's quite a different game. Sure it's a fighting game, but it's largely been separate for so long that there's not much crossover. That being said, being at Evo is a pretty cool thing and I'd like to see that continue. But Smash has it's own major huge tourneys, so it doesn't need Evo anymore. 2013 helped kick things off, 2014 was just for coolness's sake. Other tourneys have been more interesting. I'm not too familiar with the FGC in general, but isn't Evo seen as "the big one" for a lot of games?

My post was just bewilderment at the way the timeslot planning came about. I'd probably say the same for any other game should it be placed in the same position. 8pm night -> 8am morning is just rough, especially since there's no guarantee they'll be finished at a reasonable time.

 

[SunJester]

My guess is Mr Wizard asked Nintendo to kick in money so their game could get a prime slot, Nintendo said no money for you, so he put it in a terrible spot and chose the higher money making game (in terms of viewers) to put on Sunday.

But yeah, Evo's never really been about creating the best tournaments for the players.

 

[Rawkobo]

Nah, I agree that Smash shouldn't feel that it has to part of the FGC-it's quite a different game. Sure it's a fighting game, but it's largely been separate for so long that there's not much crossover. That being said, being at Evo is a pretty cool thing and I'd like to see that continue. But Smash has it's own major huge tourneys, so it doesn't need Evo anymore. 2013 helped kick things off, 2014 was just for coolness's sake. Other tourneys have been more interesting. I'm not too familiar with the FGC in general, but isn't Evo seen as "the big one" for a lot of games?

My post was just bewilderment at the way the timeslot planning came about. I'd probably say the same for any other game should it be placed in the same position. 8pm night -> 8am morning is just rough, especially since there's no guarantee they'll be finished at a reasonable time.

the timeslot is booty

evo is seen as the big one for games in fgc's even though they have majors elsewhere like ceo in florida and ki in tennesse, and the stuff that happens in cali/ny quite frequently to my knowledge

smash has always been self-managed so when we started going for evo and mlg again i started to worry a bit because stuff like this was bound to happen again in favor of melee

not that melee doesn't deserve at least some of it, but idk how much of a future smash itself has if there exist people that keep acting like there's only one diamond to glorify

edit: also what @ SunJester said is very true and i wish ceo was the real major "big one" for most things in the fgc, let alone smash

 

[Grey Belnades]

I may not be that passionate about Sm4sh as I was for Brawl but damn, that time-slot is just abhorrent and the players shouldn't stand for that.

 

[trash?]

in general, people always tell others not to go to EVO if they're nearby any other majors, because it's absolutely terrible for anyone other than the handful of players that get top 8. it's never really been a tournament that's nice to its players, yet thousands of players still sign up for it because it's the big tournament, too big to fail etc etc

 

[Rawkobo]

in general, people always tell others not to go to EVO if they're nearby any other majors, because it's absolutely terrible for anyone other than the handful of players that get top 8. it's never really been a tournament that's nice to its players, yet thousands of players still sign up for it because it's the big tournament, too big to fail etc etc

same thing happened with mlg

people are suckers for "super bowls"

 

[Helsong]

Well, considering CEO has routinely ran super well with Smash, and Evo has largely complained about Smash.....I'm 100% ok with CEO being the gold standard for FGC/Smash crossover tourneys.

Regarding Smash and big tourneys: I can definitely see the push towards bigger tourneys and esports favoring Melee over any of the other Smash games-Nintendo doesn't seem to be supporting the Smash scene very much(at least monetarily, I know they helped with setups for Apex), so it'll basically be what sponsors see as being the most lucrative. Which is pretty obviously Melee right now. So Melee gets better timeslots, better tourneys, and more spectators. Smash4 might be able to ride the coattails, but it desperately needs better management/leadership. Unfortunately, I'm just not sure how long it'll be able to sustain itself with Melee being so incredibly strong right now-not because the Melee scene will kill it, but because if you're going to throw money at Smash, you're going to throw it at Melee(Nintendo non-withstanding).

And uh..I dunno with PM. We're obviously not going to be at big tourneys that Melee's sponsors will support, so PM will just end up being a self-managed game through and through, and have to be content with the occasional major presence from a TO capable of doing so(see: Paragon Los Angeles). I'm really hoping that PM Database project takes off, because that will do a lot to keep things going, I feel. I think PM really needs a good central hub for resources like that.

That ended up being longer and more rambly than I intended, and largely off-topic rambling no less. Must be in a rambly mood today, I made the mistake in going off on someone regarding Federation Force earlier for no real reason.

 

[SpiderMad]

in general, people always tell others not to go to EVO if they're nearby any other majors, because it's absolutely terrible for anyone other than the handful of players that get top 8. it's never really been a tournament that's nice to its players, yet thousands of players still sign up for it because it's the big tournament, too big to fail etc etc

I'm in IL. My friend and his friends are driving to it. It's 24 hours of straight driving to Las Vegas. Worst of all some of the friends aren't that big into Smash, so he might end up just being at casinos the entire time.

 

[steelguttey]

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

ROFL

 

[Helsong]

So, if you go to Vegas, you just..don't spend most of your time at Casinos. At least, you don't spend most of your time at the machines. Get some games in, and go in with the mentality that you're going to lose money. Because you will. You will not win.

Vegas has some great bars, some great clubs(even when you have to buy a dance to hang out with your friends there), theaters where you can see some awesome performances, and is just in general a very hedonistic place where you can throw your money away on stuff you'll actually enjoy, and not waste it on...trying to get more money? You can even head outside the city and do some nature hikes, see the Hoover Dam, etc.

Basically, get the hell out of the casinos when you inevitably lose at Evo. Try it for a bit, then head for greener and more pleasurable pastures. Just retain common sense, and don't listen to the girls when they say they want to take you back for a good time.

 

[steelguttey]

yea can we talk about this whole hugs situation? hes being a ****ing biiiitch

you dont NOT play a certain style to stop killing the game, you play the ****ing game to stop killing the game

 

[PlateProp]

Melee had the third largest amount of entrants, I really doubt it's not gonna be there next year

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

also speaking of tournaments mistreating their players

remember when the second largest game at apex was incredibly exciting and was promised back for a second year? Remember when the second largest smash game was forced to go without streams or with second-rate ones? remember when majors dropped the second most played smash game in favor of one with dev money behind it?

nah I don't remember that at all

idk like what evo is doing is ****ty but evo has always been ****ty it's just ironic that smash4 is being on the losing end of it after kinda shafting PM

 

[Helsong]

It's hardly Smash4's fault alone that PM is getting shafted, though. Most of the people that blame it are just scapegoating without actually thinking through the (fairly legitimate) business reasons behind big sponsors not wanting to support tourneys with PM.

Apex was just a mismanaged cluster**** though. Apparently people couldn't even set up PM friendly stations in the main room? I mean..what? I doubt Nintendo gave that much of a damn. Not allowing it to be streamed at it's qualifiers was also dumb as hell.

 

[Rawkobo]

i blame streaming in general being on a rise but nobody is willing to hear me out on it

 

[Helsong]

i blame streaming in general being on a rise but nobody is willing to hear me out on it

Elaborate? I'm quite curious-it appears to me that Streaming is helping scenes grow, but it sounds like you're saying the opposite?

 

[Lizalfos]

Hey baebies.

Hey, my state is halfway to getting rid of the confederate battle flag, thats cool.

I did a lowish percent Zero Mission Run. Ridley First, no beam upgrades except charge.

In the flying slug fight I didn't manage my missiles so I only came in with like 30 and he didn't die so I had to charge shot for half of his second phase (hell) IDK how you are supposed to do that fight in low % run (I guess you go Kraid first so you can do early supers with speedball and skip that fight).

I think this game is far weaker than Super not just because it is smaller, but it feels more rom hacky and less well designed levels that just so happen to have lots of open ended play. I really pisses me off that you are forced to get the power grip for no reason than to make a wall disappear mysteriously. Super would never do that, in super I would have to use an ability to conquer an obstacle, not make it arbitrarily make it disappear.

Also super gives you powerbomb early in the game, but zm thinks that it is some end game cool thing. No, powerbomb is to make exploration easier. I power bomb the room and I know what items or walls I need to hit. All the 2d metroid games after AND Other M don't seem to understand this. Oh well, it is still probably the 2d best metroid game and you can do some really fun runs, they are just super hard unless you really abuse save states, but luckily I am.

 

[Rawkobo]

Elaborate? I'm quite curious-it appears to me that Streaming is helping scenes grow, but it sounds like you're saying the opposite?

twitch in general has helped divide all of the different smash communities in my eyes because it has driven games to be spectator sports or die in the process, and it's also now the focus of sponsorships and big business

initially it was a good idea because being a content creator got a lot of information out there and streaming assists in that significantly, particularly with fighting games and mobas, but once big names start putting money into the business, people start turning back on what they stood for

i always felt we needed to separate from the community, but a lot of the bad blood and salt between the communities stems from what gets attention and viewership and what people say as a result of it being so

pm was in the spotlight during 3.02 so a lot of people were willfully ignorant and gave the short end of the stick to the brawl community, so the reaction to when nintendo put forward sponsor dollars and gimr dropped pm from the main stream for those sponsor bucks was not only expected but ironic

and smash 4's about to feel it again, which brings me again to say that i feel like streaming has only made melee pull out ahead and not fumble about because of putting the viewers first and not the players

but that's just me

 

[Lizalfos]

Should I do Tourain w/o high jump? Hope I don't need it lol. All it is good for really is getting Varia.

Edit: and I can cheese that with ice beam.
Edit: or actually bomb jumps but I don't want it unless varia is needed for tourian if you only have 3 missile tanks.

 

[Jaedrik]

Why are politicians playing capture the flag?
They should be more serious about their 'jobs'.

 

[Rawkobo]

somewhat related, coney just mentioned this on blast zone, posted by overswarm:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...ash_community_and_the_culture_of_complaining/

this is essentially the sort of thing i've been talking about; the way streaming is handled right now, we currently allow for a spectator culture that dictates what's best for all of our scenes without actually playing the formats in question

the league reference is significant because esports fans hurt their players a lot by forcing things on them or preventing them for making better decisions for themselves

 

[Kurri ★]

Melee had the third largest amount of entrants, I really doubt it's not gonna be there next year

It will, but I don't want it to be. Smash at EVO is cool and 2013 was a huge thing, Melee was hype that year. But I strangely feel that was less because it was hype and more because of the novelty of it. 2014 was, well there were good matches, my favorite being Axe's four stock against Silentwolf, but the rest of it was... well who cared. Only people into Smash, or rather Melee, were really into it.

Meh, I'll probably still enjoy it... Or not... I really don't wanna watch Fox dittos all day with the occasional Falco or Marth here and there.

 

[trash?]

yea can we talk about this whole hugs situation? hes being a ****ing biiiitch

you dont NOT play a certain style to stop killing the game, you play the ****ing game to stop killing the game

two things to this:

1) boring matches will kill a game, yeah. just ask the hyped-up-only-to-immediately-fail SFxT for that fact, and you probably don't want that situation to pop up at EVO.

2) that being the case, it will never, ever, ever ever ever ever be the players' fault, no matter how much scrubs will try to tell people otherwise. as a top tournament player, you understand that a competitive game doesn't give an iota of a **** who was "more fair" or "more fun", it cares about who won and lost, and you want to be on that former side more than the latter, so you do what you are able to do within the game's rules. if the game allows you to do something miserable, boring, devolving or otherwise, that will help you win, that is a flaw with the game, and to assume otherwise is to miss the entire point of competition

 

[Helsong]

twitch in general has helped divide all of the different smash communities in my eyes because it has driven games to be spectator sports or die in the process, and it's also now the focus of sponsorships and big business

initially it was a good idea because being a content creator got a lot of information out there and streaming assists in that significantly, particularly with fighting games and mobas, but once big names start putting money into the business, people start turning back on what they stood for

i always felt we needed to separate from the community, but a lot of the bad blood and salt between the communities stems from what gets attention and viewership and what people say as a result of it being so

pm was in the spotlight during 3.02 so a lot of people were willfully ignorant and gave the short end of the stick to the brawl community, so the reaction to when nintendo put forward sponsor dollars and gimr dropped pm from the main stream for those sponsor bucks was not only expected but ironic

and smash 4's about to feel it again, which brings me again to say that i feel like streaming has only made melee pull out ahead and not fumble about because of putting the viewers first and not the players

but that's just me

That's an interesting idea. I do agree that there's a growing emphasis on viewers over community/players, which is a problem. However, this just seems to be a natural evolution of media. I don't think it's a bad thing, especially since it's this very same phenomenon that allows players to focus more on the game, despite the extra emphasis on games being more platable for the viewer as opposed to the player.

As things grow and get bigger, however...how are they supposed to gain revenue? Just player fees aren't enough, so you turn to sponsors to help your tournament. The sponsors need advertising, and they want popular streams to help advertise to as many people as possible. The culture around streaming will head towards what's more entertaining for the viewers. The only real hope is to somehow convince the viewers that no, player experience is more important, and to have a game that's a good sport to watch when players are able to enjoy themselves playing. But good luck doing that as your community gets bigger and larger parts of the community remain mostly spectators and only occasional players.

I think I'm just rambling again and not really formulating any real arguments or concrete ideas.

Oh yeah, and the whole hugs thing is pretty dumb. One player playing boring isn't going to do anything for the life of your game, especially when the rest of the meta is so focused around faster play anyway. Let's also not forget that Armada was camping out HBox, too. It just feels like people crapping on HBox again. I honestly wasn't expecting such scrubby(and I mean scrub by definition, not as a random insult) statements from someone who's been in the game so long.

 

[Rawkobo]

That's an interesting idea. I do agree that there's a growing emphasis on viewers over community/players, which is a problem. However, this just seems to be a natural evolution of media. I don't think it's a bad thing, especially since it's this very same phenomenon that allows players to focus more on the game, despite the extra emphasis on games being more platable for the viewer as opposed to the player.

As things grow and get bigger, however...how are they supposed to gain revenue? Just player fees aren't enough, so you turn to sponsors to help your tournament. The sponsors need advertising, and they want popular streams to help advertise to as many people as possible. The culture around streaming will head towards what's more entertaining for the viewers. The only real hope is to somehow convince the viewers that no, player experience is more important, and to have a game that's a good sport to watch when players are able to enjoy themselves playing. But good luck doing that as your community gets bigger and larger parts of the community remain mostly spectators and only occasional players.

I think I'm just rambling again and not really formulating any real arguments or concrete ideas.

Oh yeah, and the whole hugs thing is pretty dumb. One player playing boring isn't going to do anything for the life of your game, especially when the rest of the meta is so focused around faster play anyway. Let's also not forget that Armada was camping out HBox, too. It just feels like people crapping on HBox again. I honestly wasn't expecting such scrubby(and I mean scrub by definition, not as a random insult) statements from someone who's been in the game so long.

player experience was the entire reason i wanted to begin TOing in the first place

playing to "get noticed" has made things that much more aggravating