Project M Social Thread Gold

[Fortress]

Nothing here but L-cancelling junk. You're hiding something.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Nothing here but L-cancelling junk. You're hiding something.

The book on L-dashCUS is the only thing I`m hiding and your never going to get it out of me!

 

[Hylian]

It is? could you please explain? I've never though of it as bad from a design standpoint (although i've never though of it more than an AT)

It's something that doesn't add depth. You are required to do it every time with every character unless you have a better option(like float cancelling). It's just a technical barrier that tests your ability to press a button rather than outthink/outplay your opponent. I could go a lot more in-depth but that's the gist of it.

 

[Paradoxium]

Weird, I thought being good at the game did that.

It is? could you please explain? I've never though of it as bad from a design standpoint (although i've never though of it more than an AT)

I wasn't serious about the L-canceling part, basically it's only good for trying prove that melee can be played at a competitive level, you know when those fighting game guys say, "melee not fighting game derp derp" and then you say "yea, it haz wave dash and L-cancel and stuff", that's the only time where I've ever seen it necessary, regardless I never saw it as a problem

 

[Fortress]

L-cancelling is one of those rather have than not haves at this point, to be honest. It's a necessary evil. It's just a little button press.

 

[Johnknight1]

L-canceling is a bad mechanic from a design standpoint, but for very different reasons than what makes tripping such a bad mechanic.

Future Smash games would be better with the lag cancelling for moves being automatic.

Still, given how Brawl didn't have L-cancelling, I'd rather have a Melee system of L-cancelling than that what was in Brawl.

 

[MVP]

L-canceling is da best. i love it. Seriously. i think it adds a technical aspect to the game for higher level play

EDIT: same with wavedashing and dashdancing etc.

 

[Plum]

It is? could you please explain? I've never though of it as bad from a design standpoint (although i've never though of it more than an AT)

It's an artificial raising of the skill floor required to play the game competitively. A high skill floor isn't exactly the problem though; wavedashing, glide tossing, DACUS, and a slew of other various AT's present in the game also raise the skill floor required to play competitively, but the big difference is that they also exponentially raise the skill ceiling at the same time. They offer real choices to be made at every point of their usage and involve both players in those choices. Learning how to input a wavedash is only the first step in learning how to wavedash. You can learn the input in an hour and spend the next few years exploring its usage.
With L-canceling its just "do it 100% of the time always forever and ever because not doing it is just straight up wrong." Once you learn how to input an L-cancel, that's it. It kind of just ends up making the game harder for the sake of making the game harder. That's why I say that L-canceling raises the skill floor artificially. The skill ceiling with or without L-canceling is identical, and the only real difference is that you've made the barrier of entry harder to break through.

 

[Johnknight1]

L-canceling is da best. i love it. Seriously. i think it adds a technical aspect to the game for higher level play

EDIT: same with wavedashing and dashdancing etc.

Yeah, but if L-cancelling was automatic the way it is now, there would be no difference (except having to push a button once in a while needlessly due to inefficiency).

It's mostly just a random element Sakurai, Hal Laboratories, and company left in from Smash 64 (yes, Z-cancelling was an intended for Smash 64).

Wavedashing and dash dancing are different, because you can actually be punished for using them (wrongly), and they actually add depths.

 

[Pikmin1211]

So will Yoshi have the Brawl or Melee djump cancel? Hopefully Brawl.

 

[MVP]

i can see both sides of the argument. for me, i like it so i'm ok with it

 

[Pikmin1211]

(Aside from Peach) Who has a really short wavedash? Because only person I know with a tiny one is Peach.
Zelda?

 

[mYzeALot]

Wario, Zelda, Lucario, Link, Falcon, and puff have pretty short wavedashes

 

[MVP]

boozer....

 

[Pikmin1211]

Jiggly and Link, yeah.
Falco's is OK? I'm usually Short Hopping with him so I don't Wavedash much.

 

[Pikmin1211]

Bowser's is SO BAD. The startup is slower than him walking.

 

[Little Nemo]

Cpt. Falcon's is only kinda short. But it's really fast so I still find that it's very useful.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

It's something that doesn't add depth. You are required to do it every time with every character unless you have a better option(like float cancelling). It's just a technical barrier that tests your ability to press a button rather than outthink/outplay your opponent. I could go a lot more in-depth but that's the gist of it.

It's an artificial raising of the skill floor required to play the game competitively. A high skill floor isn't exactly the problem though; wavedashing, glide tossing, DACUS, and a slew of other various AT's present in the game also raise the skill floor required to play competitively, but the big difference is that they also exponentially raise the skill ceiling at the same time. They offer real choices to be made at every point of their usage and involve both players in those choices. Learning how to input a wavedash is only the first step in learning how to wavedash. You can learn the input in an hour and spend the next few years exploring its usage.
With L-canceling its just "do it 100% of the time always forever and ever because not doing it is just straight up wrong." Once you learn how to input an L-cancel, that's it. It kind of just ends up making the game harder for the sake of making the game harder. That's why I say that L-canceling raises the skill floor artificially. The skill ceiling with or without L-canceling is identical, and the only real difference is that you've made the barrier of entry harder to break through.

Gee gosh golly, i've never thought of it that way, ever

well this is cool to know, thanks a bunch guys

 

[Pikmin1211]

Question: How do you approach with Falcon? I can't figure it out. NAir is OK, but i need something better.

 

[Pikmin1211]

Why can't I edit?
Anyway, yeah, L-Cancelling could just be automatic, and it wouldn't change, well, anything.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Question: How do you approach with Falcon? I can't figure it out. NAir is OK, but i need something better.

Its usually DD -> DD -> DD -> grab/nair/dair, if you didn't get anything go back to DDing until your able to either grab/nair/dair

 

[Pikmin1211]

Its usually DD -> DD -> DD -> grab/nair/dair, if you didn't get anything go back to DDing until your able to either grab/nair/dair

Ah DD. Didn't think of that one, and yeah, I find myself grabbing alot on approach too.

 

[MVP]

up-air is fantastic vs spacies and such. you NEED to learn to effectively approach with up-air. it sets ok falcon players from prime ones.

EDIT: you also need to learn MU, and how to use single-hit nairs. cause some approach options work better vs other character. just experiment and you'll figure it out . the Melee falcon boards are a great place to start

 

[SpiderMad]

It's mostly just a random element Sakurai, Hal Laboratories, and company left in from Smash 64 (yes, Z-cancelling was an intended for Smash 64).

If you Z-cancelled in 64 certain moves lost their final hitbox

 

[Pikmin1211]

Am I the only one to find Ivy's BAir just a little too good?

 

[Pikmin1211]

up-air is fantastic vs spacies and such. you NEED to learn to effectively approach with up-air. it sets ok falcon players from prime ones.

UAir. Wow. Most random thing to approach with most characters, but this is working surprisingly well. Thanks!

 

[MVP]

UAir. Wow. Most random thing to approach with most characters, but this is working surprisingly well. Thanks!

NP bro, falcon is an awesome character, he'll move to my secondary once samus returns

 

[Little Nemo]

Question: How do you approach with Falcon? I can't figure it out. NAir is OK, but i need something better.

It really depends. I'm a very new Falcon and I actually don't play him in PM (He feels very weird and aside from recovery buffs I think he's a bad character in PM) so maybe it's a bit different.
Side-B is an okay approach but it's very predictable. Same with knee. Same with stomp (Bad approach actually). I think Falcon's most vital tool is dash dancing. I dash dance in and back out and punish with grab. All of these are terrible approaches. I have problems with Nair.
PS don't even listen to me I am a TERRIBLE Falcon.

 

[standardtoaster]

So will Yoshi have the Brawl or Melee djump cancel? Hopefully Brawl.

He has both just like ness and lucas. Hold the jump button to rise using the brawl DJC or release the button quickly to have melee DJC

 

[Yung Mei]

It really depends. I'm a very new Falcon and I actually don't play him in PM (He feels very weird and aside from recovery buffs I think he's a bad character in PM) so maybe it's a bit different.
Side-B is an okay approach but it's very predictable. Same with knee. Same with stomp (Bad approach actually). I think Falcon's most vital tool is dash dancing. I dash dance in and back out and punish with grab. All of these are terrible approaches. I have problems with Nair.
PS don't even listen to me I am a TERRIBLE Falcon.

just falcon punch randomly, trust me im a lawyer

 

[caLviN-1260]

just falcon punch randomly, trust me im a lawyer

That's really the only way to play Falcon

 

[Paradoxium]

just falcon punch randomly, trust me im a lawyer

You can reverse it for a mix-up as well

 

[Oro?!]

www.twitch.tv/expgamingil

Come watch some of Chicago's best play some PM!

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

UAir. Wow. Most random thing to approach with most characters, but this is working surprisingly well. Thanks!

falcon pinwheels are the death of everybody

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I guess I missed the L-cancelling debate by a ways, but I thought I'd add that the only reasonable thing I've heard in it's favor is that the timing difference between a hit and a miss can require players to pay attention to whether or not they've whiffed the attack. I've always thought that a missed L-cancel rather than a successful one is what adds depth, because it creates an opening for a punish and is at least somewhat bait-able if you can get your opponent to whiff an attack they expected to hit with. Without L-cancelling, it seems like those kind of careless/well-baited aerials just become a little too safe. That's not to say they would be unpunishable, or that I can even speak about whether this would matter at top-level play, but there's at least a shade of depth I think would be missing if L-cancelling were completely removed (however, seeing as I've been at the receiving end of the punish so often, I certainly wouldn't mourn it's loss).

So, this might be poorly thought-out, but what if, aerials auto-L-cancelled on hit/shield only? That way whiffing the attack would still not always be as safe, but stringing together attacks with minimum endlag wouldn't take any more skill than hitting with them in the first place. It would also mean that old players have a reason to instinctively L-cancel everything if they so choose, just to be safe, but players who don't constantly keep track of it aren't severely crippled, either.

 

[Bryonato]

Blind playthrough of Metroid Prime continues tonight. Say hi or something

www.twitch.tv/bryonato

 

[SunJester]

Speaking from a personal standpoint, I'm someone who hasn't really fully implemented AT's yet. L-cancelling while not hard, feels very unsatisfying to learn. The thought of pushing it every, single, jump, sounds really absurd to me. It feels like its just something "else" added into the game to artificially up the skill level without adding anything interesting. I know you can move faster after it, but its just really, ugh.

I mean lets compare this to Wavedashing. Wave dashing is a stupid amount of fun, and it really feels fluid and natural, Not to mention it has a million different and interesting uses. To me it feels as natural as making as teching or dash dancing. It feels like it should be included in the game. I really can't say the same about L-cancelling, it feels unnecessary. I know even the pros screw it up sometimes and get punished for it, but it feels more like playing a timing game, rather than playing a fighting game. It feels forced into the game.


That being said if the community still wants L-cancelling then I don't mind its inclusion. I just don't like it personally.

 

[SpiderMad]

L-cancelling:

Spoiler

I can't be that angry at L-cancelling.

- Thank goodness they made it light press, so extensive pressing of it doesn't cause strain.

- Anyone can perform it with the lenient window. I can't say the same for SH'ing with 3 frame jump squat characters in Melee (Fox, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Pikachu..), which luckily was made easier in Brawl/P:M by having the game check the very last frame possible of the jump squat while Melee either chose to or under coding limitations made it check a frame earlier for jump button release than it had to/was possible to. DACUS (and to an extent early aerials) feel to me to be a right to all players though the window for most's is 1 or 2 frames, if they were to be made easier that would be good (early aerials become 1 frame easier with a 1 frame buffer, making the threshold a lot more humanly possible with it now being a 2 frame window just like how one frame really helps make Fox's SH easier in P:M than Melee like I mentioned as well as P:M making Samus's SWD a 2 frame window making it a great percentage easier in consistency [viable to use in competition]). Squirtle's SH Bair WL is one of many examples of a 1 frame strict maneuver (both to get Aerial frame perfect after jump squat, and 1 frame to WL before landing) which Sethlon, Burnsy, and Rat all failed to perform even once in their attempts let alone viably use in competition.

- Like other people mention a lot, Ice Climber's Shields can do different things to mess up the timing and create more thought process: but even L-canceling in a lot of situations that aren't common SHFFs does make the person think. One example is Link's Dair in situations where you guess or react if you'll get the hit or not will determine blowing your L-cancel window, since the window just like teching isn't spammable because once you press it it will only activate for a certain amount of time, and then goes into slightly long peroid where it won't work again: which entails some perplexing things. There's psuedo-tricks you can do with hitting someone before their aerial hits the ground with a low knockback move and make them quickly now have to tech: though in Melee and apparently the full set Teching is hard press so as long as you didn't hard press your L-cancel you'll tech window wouldn't be ruined by your flubbed aerial landing you pressed L for by the low knockback move that now makes you hit the ground where you want to tech. There's probably a lot more stuff similar to that people don't think about either, like Wind (wind boxes) on certain moves (GnW being on a platform with an opponent coming down with an aerail to hit him, and then dropping below the platform while performing an up-air, dumb theory example but yeah) screwing up the opponent's L-cancel.

 

[DrinkingFood]

rise using the brawl DJC

how is that a DJC if you're still folllowing the double jump's path
you could say you're canceling the animation but that applies to everyone in that case

 

[Saito]

Welp, it's all over for me guys.

All 5 of my controllers have finally reached a near unplayable state. (Completely unplayable for advanced play) It's been 12/10/8/3/3 long years (each controller's life span) but it's all over for them.

Lets look over the errors with each one.
#1. Moves up always.
#2. Moves constantly in the last direction pressed
#3. C-stick works inconsistently
#4. C-stick works inconsistently, constantly moving up slowly
#5. doesn't move upwards well. Can't DACUS with it or tap jump, but tilts are a breeze.

I've either gotta fix these/get new ones in 4 days or my 3.0 hype is going to be destroyed.
No one I play with is having fun with these controllers. It's just depressing to play with them.