Project M Social Thread Gold

[Bleck]

I like don't even get what you're trying to say, PM isn't dying because of corporations' views on the playerbase because of their views on l-cancelling. IF PM is dying it's due to greed and/or misaligned priorities of streamers and community leaders.

what I'm saying is fairly simple; what you think isn't the reason for the shrinking of the scene is what I suspect is actually the reason, and what you (and everyone else has assumed) believe to actually be the case is probably not so

in a game with fox l-cancelling is kind of a necessity

automatic l-canceling should be assumed to be functionally the same thing as manual l-canceling for balance purposes; if something is going to be too strong with automatic l-canceling, then it's also too strong if you assume that a player lands all of their l-cancels perfectly, and if that's the case then the character is too strong

if the only reason we're keeping l-canceling around is so that actual work w.r.t balance doesn't have to be done, then I believe the PMDT needs to reassess their priorities

 

[GP&B]

For clarity's sake @ Bleck , are you saying that the particular mindset is damaging or the execution barriers are? Your initial remark was in regards to Magikarp acknowledging that L-canceling is arbitrary but not really an issue.

I've made my stance plain and clear in the other thread, I'm more so curious to make sense of what you're saying.

 

[Lizalfos]

You jerkoffs and still talking about how op Fox is, but PMDT is just going to either shorten or give Firefox landing lag.

Fox isn't best by an insurmountable margin. I think other characters can close this gap.

Wait for this patch to end and then we will see what characters were winning Majors/Regionals.

 

[Player -0]

Hypothetically Fox is the same with and without auto L-Cancelling but in practice it still makes a difference.

If you're shield pressuring then you don't have to worry about holding L/R too long or accidentally not pressing it. Then factoring in the lack of teaching if you hit L/R before if they trade an OoS option with you. It puts a lot of mental pressure on the player to consistently do it.

 

[Broccoli]

disregard aquire

 

[PlateProp]

Quick interjection into the L-Cancel debate... Browsing tinder the other night, think she may be the one.

Tread carefully

 

[Player -0]

You're only giving @ SpiderMad more data. 43 miles away? Calculate time it takes you to get to a tournament then poof. Yo sabé dondé tú vivas.

 

[Bleck]

For clarity's sake @ Bleck , are you saying that the particular mindset is damaging or the execution barriers are?

I believe the mindset that overvalues arbitrary skill barriers for the sake of an unhealthy dependency on the vaguely defined notion of "competitive" is a fairly questionable thing to try and support. The competitive community's passion and talent is as undeniable as their volatility and self-destructive nature - at the very least, the issue of l-canceling in PM is a concrete example of the community supporting bad gameplay literally because it's exclusionary by nature (again, refer to some of the posts in the automatic l-canceling thread).
I think that, considering how little of a threat PM poses to Nintendo in any financial capacity, that this has pr

Fox isn't best by an insurmountable margin. I think other characters can close this gap.

Unhealthy mechanics aren't necessarily always powerful. 'Broken' is not the same as 'overpowered'.

It allows novice players to pull of combos that they may not have without some practice; it makes the game easier for no reason.

See what I'm talking about?

 

[PlateProp]

My new avatar is doing things to me

Sage things

What does this mean pms

 

[Broccoli]

I believe the mindset that overvalues arbitrary skill barriers for the sake of an unhealthy dependency on the vaguely defined notion of "competitive" is a fairly questionable thing to try and support.

www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart

Anyway, should we allow a keybind for wavedashing as well? Perhaps A + Y at the same time in the direction you want to go?

I really don't see where you're coming from. L-cancelling is by no means arbitrary, it's a deliberate input by the player. It's an AT that takes some practice and anyone can learn it if they really want to. You're asking to dumb the game down a bit for a demographic that the game wasn't even MADE for. That, and L-cancelling doesn't even take that long to learn, longer to master yea, but any fighting games take practice.

I can agree with you that L-Cancelling and ATs are indeed polarizing. It separates the novice player from the intermediate player, but that isn't a bad thing. It gives the novice something to be better at, it gives the novice NOTICEABLE signs of improvement. They see their character flash and they think "hey, I'm getting better at this!" It's motivation, not a deterrence. For those who don't want to put in the effort to learn, they don't have to, they can continue playing however they please.

L-cancelling and ATs draws a metaphorical line in the sand where new players can track their tech skill. It feels good to get better at something, that's what L-cancelling, WD, and other ATs bring to a game like smash, a visible indicator of improvement.

 

[Bleck]

I'm allergic to reddit, sorry.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

*snip*
I have no idea why anyone would dispute that

Because humans are self-serving morons.

 

[SpiderMad]

You're only giving @ SpiderMad more data. 43 miles away? Calculate time it takes you to get to a tournament then poof. Yo sabé dondé tú vivas.

He's actually using Tinder all wrong when he has his distance preferences that far

 

[MechWarriorNY]

brawl ded now rip in pepperonies

And good riddance, too.

*in response to "git gud"*
whelp

Hey, at the end of the day, that's the only action to take that matters in the long run. Nothing else works as well.

 

[DrinkingFood]

wait hold on just a second
what I'm getting from this current conversation so far is that bleck is a elitist casual (basically, the worst kind)
and level 100 magikarp thinks technical difficulty is a balancing mechanism in a competitive game
technical difficulty is not a balancing mechanism in a competitive game, it's a meta slower and carpal tunnel inducer

 

[Broccoli]

I'm allergic to reddit, sorry.

Oh god, please click on the link. I bet you're somewhere on that subreddit.

 

[GP&B]

I believe the mindset that overvalues arbitrary skill barriers for the sake of an unhealthy dependency on the vaguely defined notion of "competitive" is a fairly questionable thing to try and support. The competitive community's passion and talent is as undeniable as their volatility and self-destructive nature - at the very least, the issue of l-canceling in PM is a concrete example of the community supporting bad gameplay literally because it's exclusionary by nature (again, refer to some of the posts in the automatic l-canceling thread).
I think that, considering how little of a threat PM poses to Nintendo in any financial capacity, that this has pr

I don't think the mentality is that overwhelming, but I could be entirely wrong on that. I do agree that there's an astounding amount of resistance to altering/removing the mechanic in any fashion. I'm not sure how this plays into decline/dying though. Melee has only grown over the past two years despite having at times dumb mechanics that were fixed up in PM.

See what I'm talking about?

I find it funny how that post popped up prior to your response (and also funny that the entire post was edited out).

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

wait hold on just a second
what I'm getting from this current conversation so far is that bleck is a elitist casual (basically, the worst kind)
and level 100 magikarp thinks technical difficulty is a balancing mechanism in a competitive game
technical difficulty is not a balancing mechanism in a competitive game, it's a meta slower and carpal tunnel inducer

i mean ideally it's not but currently yeah it kinda is

 

[Broccoli]

I find it funny how that post popped up prior to your response (and also funny that the entire post was edited out).

It was a poorly articulated post not really addressing the current discussion. My next post below it explains the exact idea I was getting at in the post I edited out. Just...better ;3

 

[Lizalfos]

I believe the mindset that overvalues arbitrary skill barriers for the sake of an unhealthy dependency on the vaguely defined notion of "competitive" is a fairly questionable thing to try and support. The competitive community's passion and talent is as undeniable as their volatility and self-destructive nature - at the very least, the issue of l-canceling in PM is a concrete example of the community supporting bad gameplay literally because it's exclusionary by nature (again, refer to some of the posts in the automatic l-canceling thread).
I think that, considering how little of a threat PM poses to Nintendo in any financial capacity, that this has pr



Unhealthy mechanics aren't necessarily always powerful. 'Broken' is not the same as 'overpowered'.



See what I'm talking about?

Define broken.

 

[GP&B]

It was a poorly articulated post not really addressing the current discussion. My next post below it explains the exact idea I was getting at in the post I edited out. Just...better ;3

You never gave a valid gameplay-related reason for why L-canceling isn't arbitrary. Just having it around as an artificial way to mark milestones in progress is not a sufficient argument. Also a note on simplifying: dumbing the game down typically refers to removing both complexity and options to simplify the game. Making the landing lag defaulted to half doesn't remove options, it only removes complexity (which is neither inherently good or bad). Trying to simplify wavedashing on the other hand, isn't really that possible without reintroducing it in an entirely different fashion. It can't be macro'd because it's already in its simplest form. Not only that but the applications offered by wavedashing are not inherently understood and take a good deal of growth to utilize and apply in play.

 

[mimgrim]

wait hold on just a second
what I'm getting from this current conversation so far is that bleck is a elitist casual (basically, the worst kind)
and level 100 magikarp thinks technical difficulty is a balancing mechanism in a competitive game
technical difficulty is not a balancing mechanism in a competitive game, it's a meta slower and carpal tunnel inducer

 

[Broccoli]

technical difficulty is not a balancing mechanism in a competitive game, it's a meta slower and carpal tunnel inducer

L-cancelling IS part of the meta though, how is something part of the meta, slowing the meta? It's already found, it's known to be good, it's known you should use it. We're past that part. People who don't know how to do it won't get better, and those who do know how and practice will get better. Those people will go on to find more difficult techniques, possibly even INVOLVING L-cancelling or said difficult technique.

It's only a meta slower for those who do not want to put in the effort.

 

[Boiko]

He's actually using Tinder all wrong when he has his distance preferences that far

Hey, speak for yourself.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

It's only a meta slower for those who do not want to put in the effort.

Which is most people who play Smash.

 

[Broccoli]

Which is most people who play Smash.

If they don't want to put in the effort, than they most likely aren't making strides in the meta either.

 

[PlateProp]

Which is most people who play Smash.

More money to take

 

[DrinkingFood]

I wasn't referring to just l-canceling, but it's the most significant one because it offers nothing high level that auto-l-canceling wouldn't. When I say slowing the meta, it has nothing to do with people wanting to put in effort or not. We aren't talking about casual players here, if they don't want to put in the effort or get good, that's totally fine. But with regards to competitive play, it slows the meta because it adds a burden onto initially learning the game that otherwise naturally talented players have to expend time overcoming, and it even requires additional training for each new character you pick up if you want 100% consistency. I've also learned it forces awkwardness for those who want to rework their controls. The only way to guarantee an l-cancel on hit and on miss for a move that does 12 damage or more is to l-cancel twice- once for a missed attempted and once for a successful attempt. If you're close to the ground as your hitbox comes out (as in, a late aerial/falling aerial etc, generally the safest on hit and on shield and combo the best) there's no reaction time before you hit the ground for missed vs hit timings, so you have to do both timings each time. If you're like me and removed a spring in a trigger button for improved digital press control (mine is R) then you lose the option to light press R then L or L then R to cover both l-cancel timings, forcing me to either do a L-analog then L/R-digital press to cover both timings, or to double tap L-analog (which is difficult for moves doing around 12-14 damage since there can't be more than 7 frames between the first press for the first l-cancel attempt and the second press for the second l-cancel attempt. It's effectively complicating things, not for any reason, and it's infuriating that I had to focus on this when I started learning to play without a spring in my right trigger, because I could be focusing on other things and pushing my characters' meta. THAT is what I mean by slowing down the meta. It doesn't just apply if you take out a spring, either, but that's just my direct experience with it.

 

[Broccoli]

Just having it around as an artificial way to mark milestones in progress is not a sufficient argument.

Dismissing my stance and then giving zero backup as to why you feel that way. Cheers.

dumbing the game down typically refers to removing both complexity and options to simplify the game

Anecdotal evidence at best.

A visible indicator of progression is important in a game like smash. It separates those who put in the effort, from those who don't. You'll never hear a pro player complain about L-cancelling, because they've put in the work to perfect it. I'm willing to bet that even if you took it out, players would still hit L out of habit. It isn't a difficult concept to grasp or even learn. It's a physical separator from those who want to get better, from those who play for fun and just mess around. In a competitive community as large as smash, this is important to uphold the integrity of the competitive scene.

From strictly a game play point of view, there is no reason to not make it automatic. There are more things to smash than game play however.

 

[SpiderMad]

I wasn't referring to just l-canceling, but it's the most significant one because it offers nothing high level that auto-l-canceling wouldn't. When I say slowing the meta, it has nothing to do with people wanting to put in effort or not. We aren't talking about casual players here, if they don't want to put in the effort or get good, that's totally fine. But with regards to competitive play, it slows the meta because it adds a burden onto initially learning the game that otherwise naturally talented players have to expend time overcoming, and it even requires additional training for each new character you pick up if you want 100% consistency. I've also learned it forces awkwardness for those who want to rework their controls. The only way to guarantee an l-cancel on hit and on miss for a move that does 12 damage or more is to l-cancel twice- once for a missed attempted and once for a successful attempt. If you're close to the ground as your hitbox comes out (as in, a late aerial/falling aerial etc, generally the safest on hit and on shield and combo the best) there's no reaction time before you hit the ground for missed vs hit timings, so you have to do both timings each time. If you're like me and removed a spring in a trigger button for improved digital press control (mine is R) then you lose the option to light press R then L or L then R to cover both l-cancel timings, forcing me to either do a L-analog then L/R-digital press to cover both timings, or to double tap L-analog (which is difficult for moves doing around 12-14 damage since there can't be more than 7 frames between the first press for the first l-cancel attempt and the second press for the second l-cancel attempt. It's effectively complicating things, not for any reason, and it's infuriating that I had to focus on this when I started learning to play without a spring in my right trigger, because I could be focusing on other things and pushing my characters' meta. THAT is what I mean by slowing down the meta. It doesn't just apply if you take out a spring, either, but that's just my direct experience with it.

I'm surprised you covered something I was gonna mention in a video about custom controls.

 

[xepheratu]

Hey there everyone, I've just started with project m, I play with a gamecube controller, and I play random characters, my favorite is pit, but anyways anyone add me for any number of fight, I make rooms all the time and wait hours for people, my number is 4000-3205-6882, lets fight!

 

[Boiko]

Hey there everyone, I've just started with project m, I play with a gamecube controller, and I play random characters, my favorite is pit, but anyways anyone add me for any number of fight, I make rooms all the time and wait hours for people, my number is 4000-3205-6882, lets fight!

Hi, you should post here instead: http://smashboards.com/threads/wifi-friend-code-list-matchmaking-thread.343645/

 

[xepheratu]

Thank you Boiko. Sorry for any trouble.

 

[GP&B]

Dismissing my stance and then giving zero backup as to why you feel that way. Cheers.

I didn't have to. I'm only stating that your point is insufficient to begin with. L-canceling doesn't contribute to expanding gameplay options in a way that can't be accomplished by removing it in the first place. Saying that it's good as a milestone does nothing for what it offers to the game itself. I also cover below why there's like a million other milestones in the game that are far more rewarding than L-canceling.

Anecdotal evidence at best.

You said it, I defined it for you since you decided to use the phrase to begin with. That's entirely on you. Or should I be referring you to the same reddit page you linked earlier for even saying this?

A visible indicator of progression is important in a game like smash. It separates those who put in the effort, from those who don't.

Because somehow advanced ledge options (ledgedashing, haxdashing, wallteching), advanced stage maneuvers (edge canceling, wavelanding, NIL setups, shield dropping), and the bevy of character specific tech (especially new options available with RAR, DACUS, and B-reversals) aren't a good way of showing this and aren't far greater contributions to the game than L-canceling is? Do you see the entire problem with your argument yet?

You'll never hear a pro player complain about L-cancelling, because they've put in the work to perfect it.

You accuse me of using anecdotal evidence and you provide no such examples of pro players even defending it in this case. And funny enough, how about what this guy has to say about it?

I'm willing to bet that even if you took it out, players would still hit L out of habit. It isn't a difficult concept to grasp or even learn. It's a physical separator from those who want to get better, from those who play for fun and just mess around. In a competitive community as large as smash, this is important to uphold the integrity of the competitive scene.

Difficulty has nothing to do with it. It's an arbitrary input easily replaced by just cutting landing lag in half. 99% of other tech in the game cannot be replaced or simplified in such a way that doesn't cut back options.

 

[Frakture]

I wasn't referring to just l-canceling, but it's the most significant one because it offers nothing high level that auto-l-canceling wouldn't. When I say slowing the meta, it has nothing to do with people wanting to put in effort or not. We aren't talking about casual players here, if they don't want to put in the effort or get good, that's totally fine. But with regards to competitive play, it slows the meta because it adds a burden onto initially learning the game that otherwise naturally talented players have to expend time overcoming, and it even requires additional training for each new character you pick up if you want 100% consistency. I've also learned it forces awkwardness for those who want to rework their controls. The only way to guarantee an l-cancel on hit and on miss for a move that does 12 damage or more is to l-cancel twice- once for a missed attempted and once for a successful attempt. If you're close to the ground as your hitbox comes out (as in, a late aerial/falling aerial etc, generally the safest on hit and on shield and combo the best) there's no reaction time before you hit the ground for missed vs hit timings, so you have to do both timings each time. If you're like me and removed a spring in a trigger button for improved digital press control (mine is R) then you lose the option to light press R then L or L then R to cover both l-cancel timings, forcing me to either do a L-analog then L/R-digital press to cover both timings, or to double tap L-analog (which is difficult for moves doing around 12-14 damage since there can't be more than 7 frames between the first press for the first l-cancel attempt and the second press for the second l-cancel attempt. It's effectively complicating things, not for any reason, and it's infuriating that I had to focus on this when I started learning to play without a spring in my right trigger, because I could be focusing on other things and pushing my characters' meta. THAT is what I mean by slowing down the meta. It doesn't just apply if you take out a spring, either, but that's just my direct experience with it.

Just so you know, hitlag actually doesn't count towards the 6 frame L-cancel window. You only have to press shield once in the situation you're talking about. Hitting L during the hitlag won't count however.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

LMAO this glitch.

Oh my god Zamus's animation.
Just wow.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Difficulty has nothing to do with it.

You would think otherwise given how much Smashers

 

[DrinkingFood]

@Y-L, I have everything up and working, I have a USB wifi adaptor and for all other intents and purposes it's working great, and I have dolphin set up with a PM ISO. But before I test it for netplay, I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to get rid of this excessive input delay? I'm doing offline emulations and getting probably somewhere from like 5-10 frames input delay, dunno that's just my estimate, but it's really noticeable. I know the mayflash 2 port isn't natively supported but it shouldn't be THIS laggy right? I'm also using an ASUS VH238, the EVO monitor (+speakers), so that shouldn't be adding any additional lag. But I DO know the way to make this monitor lagless for CONSOLES is to use an output of its native resolution, 720p. Is there a way to set up that (or it's equivalent) for this comp? Or is it automatic? Or are there other ways to remove this input delay?

Just so you know, hitlag actually doesn't count towards the 6 frame L-cancel window. You only have to press shield once in the situation you're talking about. Hitting L during the hitlag won't count however.

Yes it does lol. It's a 7 frame window btw. Where are you even getting your information lmao

 

[GP&B]

You would think otherwise given how much Smashers

Eh, I guess. Maybe it's because I spend most of my time in PM General, but I don't think it's a bad bunch (okay yeah, Fox discussions but there's good reasons why it comes up).

 

[Lizalfos]

Hey there everyone, I've just started with project m, I play with a gamecube controller, and I play random characters, my favorite is pit, but anyways anyone add me for any number of fight, I make rooms all the time and wait hours for people, my number is 4000-3205-6882, lets fight!

Talk to me when the weekend is here. I'm interested.