Project M Social Thread Gold

[Player -0]

-looks at the currently ongoing Auto L-Cancel thread-

Hm...Yup. Definitely accurate.

His argument was literally:
- I don't like buffer because it's not tournament legal.
- Implying that auto-cancelling would be tournament legal?

Edit - No longer pink, not sure what to think.

 

[Space Stranger]

Hello PM regulars. I will now spread my mess over here!

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

L cancelling is honestly really cool because I feel like I'm pressing more buttons and doing cool stuff

I mean it is an arbitrary skill barrier but there's nothing really wrong with that. I don't want to rehash the l cancelling is dribbling in basketball metaphor so I'll explain it a different way.

Fighting games are meant to reward three main things: good execution, smart decisionmaking, and being able to read your opponent. L cancelling does not detract from the latter two and only helps the first. Establishing a skill barrier does reward execution, even if it is arbitrary. You will be rewarded for playing the game better, and the physical sensation coupled with the rewarding feeling makes the game more enjoyable.
I was watching an Ultra stream where one of the announcers was talking about how one of the players had missed an input for an Ultra move, thus causing him to lose. He would have won had he not messed up, but he did. The announcer was saying that input errors add the human element into the game. Additionally, I was watching a marvel stream and people were saying the same thing. Someone dropped an infinite which by all means would have won them the game, but that's just the way it is. If nobody made input errors, then the game wouldn't be as fun to play or watch. I mean computers can beat the best humans at chess, but people still enjoy playing chess and watching high-level chess play.

I don't want to wade into the auto l-cancel thread so I'll just **** up this thread with my opinions. Once upon a time I thought that l-cancelling shouldn't exist then I got into an arugment and my opinion changed.
(mainly due to the image of fox sheild pressuring without needing to l-cancel)

 

[Gamegenie222]

LMAO this glitch.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Even after people have played Smash with its incredibly simplified control inputs (that don't lessen the skill or the mindgames involved) the fetish for arbitrarily hard execution barriers is still alive and well.

SF4 has 1 frame linkers for no reason but then also has comeback mechanics so lesser players can feel like they might win. The game would be much better if they eased up on the execution barriers and removed the comeback factor entirely.

 

[mimgrim]

I just look at L-cancel like I do Active Reloading in Gears of War. I'm fine with it being there (GoW 1-3) but am also fine it if to goes away (multiplayer of Judgment). Basically completely neutral to it. If it is there, great I now get a boost in damage and faster reload animation of preforming an Active Reload correctly, if it isn't, great now I need to push less buttons. I'll play either way and don't really care what happens. Of course, Active Reload has a steeper penalty then L-cance if you miss as you reload animation becomes twice as long.

 

[Draco_The]

I was never a fan of the Ultras in SF4, and SF5 will not only still have them but you will also be able to cancel into them.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Smash doesn't have simplified controls, it might be easier to press attacking buttons but movement is much more complicated and input-intensive.

Also smash already has very small execution windows: perfect wavedashing, ledgedashing, and haxdashing, pivot smashes, multishines, powershields, DACUSes, DJCs, moonwalking etc

anyway the fact that autocancelling exists means that l-cancelling isn't a tech barrier you ALWAYS have to face, there are decisions to be made

 

[Bleck]

I mean it is an arbitrary skill barrier but there's nothing really wrong with that.

meanwhile PM scene is dying and ¿nobody can figure out why?

 

[mimgrim]

I've been getting better at doing the various circle and zizag motions in USF4, though I still have a tough time when I have to do 2 in a row for the Supers/Ultras (and god forbid it is a double full circle motion), but the charge motions feel... super weird make and don't make any sense to me.

Though I can still only do very simple combos, basically things like repeating light attacks into other light attacks (usually the same one lol) or, depending on the character, light attack into a Special.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

meanwhile PM scene is dying and ¿nobody can figure out why?

I get what you're trying to imply and you know as well as I do that the "death of PM" has nothing to do with it

 

[arcticfox8]

meanwhile PM scene is dying

lmao

 

[Bleck]

I get what you're trying to imply and you know as well as I do that the "death of PM" has nothing to do with it

a lot of people have tried to make Nintendo's aversion to PM a thing about money, but I'm still not convinced (nor should anyone, really, considering the relative lack of information actually communicated about it) - I believe it's more likely about avoiding the harmful "competitive gaming" mindset that a lot of its players endorse

one need only look at the current thread about automatic l-canceling to see how a lot of people's attitudes about it basically boil down to "if I think l-canceling is good then it means I'm better at Smash than you which means I'm better than you" - when you extend that to basically every 'advanced' thing in Melee/PM, it's not really surprising that Nintendo (or anybody, really) would have an aversion to that

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

L cancelling is honestly really cool because I feel like I'm pressing more buttons and doing cool stuff

I mean it is an arbitrary skill barrier but there's nothing really wrong with that.

Ugh. Meh. Completely disagree with this. Especially that last part. There's literally everything wrong with it in my opinion. I hate doing things so absolutely pointless.

But I'm wise enough to know that it'll never change from being the norm. That's why instead of clamoring for an in-game Auto-L Cancel function or toggle, which I actually did bring up the idea for (again cause I'm sure many have) about a year ago, I just do L-Cancelling like everyone else would want on the rare occasion I actually do play with people who are really into it. Meanwhile, if I'm playing just on my own or with friends, I basically go "**** that pointless ****" and play with Auto L-Cancel on instead. Lets me enjoy playing for a lot longer, be able to play when I'm more relaxed or a little tired and keeps my hands and fingers from hurting and cramping up like L-Cancelling always does to me.

But I do feel for the Anti L-Cancel crowd cause they're forever doomed to be refused a more lenient option. It's either "Everybody's doing it so you gotta do it too or fail forever." or "Then go play Smash 4." an literally nothing else. Follow the crowd or go with the alternative that doesn't actually solve the problem. Kinda sucks.

I don't feel skilled at a game or like I'm doing cool stuff when I'm just pressing more buttons to be pressing more buttons. I feel cool and skilled when I fight hard, fight smart, and win or learn something new.

But that's just my insignificant thoughts and viewpoint. Like I said, I'm not gonna fight a losing battle and rage angrily at people who like it just because I don't agree or understand them. I'll just continue accepting the function and respecting the fact that it will always exist in PM while silently hating it and the fact that we'll never have an official Auto L-Cancel alternative.

----------

tl;dr: I hate L-Cancel, find it needless and want an Auto L-Cancel toggle so both crowds can be pleased but I know that ain't happening so I'll just deal with it, keep calm and Smash hard. ¦D

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

a lot of people have tried to make Nintendo's aversion to PM a thing about money, but I'm still not convinced (nor should anyone, really, considering the relative lack of information actually communicated about it) - I believe it's more likely about avoiding the harmful "competitive gaming" mindset that a lot of its players endorse

one need only look at the current thread about automatic l-canceling to see how a lot of people's attitudes about it basically boil down to "if I think l-canceling is good then it means I'm better at Smash than you which means I'm better than you" - when you extend that to basically every 'advanced' thing in Melee/PM, it's not really surprising that Nintendo (or anybody, really) would have an aversion to that

I mean I never claimed to be good at smash or a better person than anybody else

but also that's the worst possible light which the competitive scene could be shown in, which is pretty far from the truth of it. I never expected Nintendo to take ownership of PM or do anything with it (I mean in a perfect world where nintendo is actually valve maybe yeah)

I like don't even get what you're trying to say, PM isn't dying because of corporations' views on the playerbase because of their views on l-cancelling. IF PM is dying it's due to greed and/or misaligned priorities of streamers and community leaders. And I don't really think PM is dying tbh

and I also don't get what any of that has to do with why L-cancelling is "bad." The word "arbitrary" gets thrown around a lot but L-cancelling isn't completely arbitrary, and even if it was, the only thing it would do would be to raise the skill floor a little.

frankly the entire argument is kinda silly (yeah I'm at fault too here) because there's no conceivable way that L-cancelling will be removed from futute versions of the game, especially since the status quo of melee supports it and other more arbitrary things

 

[Vashimus]

Smash doesn't have simplified controls, it might be easier to press attacking buttons but movement is much more complicated and input-intensive.

Why do people always take "simplified" as a derogatory term? Sakurai designed Smash to be more accessible because other fighters at the time were becoming more complex. Hence, it has simple, easy-to-understand controls. Let's not bull**** here.

So long as there's still plenty of depth and complexity to be found, easy controls are great; it helps a new player get to the real "meat" of a game much sooner. It's one of Smash's greatest strengths over other fighters and people should be damn proud of it.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Yeah that was the design philosophy, make the basic options (before the advanced combinations of various mechanics come into play) easy to do. Short hopping an aerial attack already has you pressing two buttons while moving the stick. Adding a third button input that is very frame dependent for ****s and giggles doesn't make any sense other than a dumb from tradition argument or the execution = skill strawman.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

but execution is a facet of skill

 

[SpiderMad]

I don't have a printer, so I didn't bother printing anything out. We just chatted about it for a while and decided on something. I went fairly standard this time, but next time I might be a little more adventurous.
View attachment 43892

http://imgur.com/a/6nfad
Went to Supercuts for $10.

Now I need to buy stylish casual wear, which I don't know how. Also my nipples are existent, unlike most guy's, so I can't wear certain shirts that easily let them show (which I'm pretty sure is unattractive for guys).

And I just realized the worst part about wearing a lot of hair gel is it's gonna get all over your pillows when you sleep.

 

[drakargx]

I'd like to point out that there's a difference between a mechanic that adds depth and strategy, thus increasing the need for good execution, and a mechanic that increases the need for good execution directly

L canceling increases the need for good execution directly without adding any substance between it. As a result the skill floor is increased, because you are at a disadvantage until you figure out how to do it. It's a mechanic that drives people away from playing the game at a competitive level, leaving on the diehard fans/those who don't really care about it either way. PM should try to accommodate as many people as it can without removing the strategy, depth, and pace of the game.

Just my two cents

 

[Strong Badam]

L-Canceling increases the skill floor without increasing the skill ceiling, whereas literally every other AT increases the skill ceiling.

 

[Soft Serve]

L canceling sucks. I Refuse to do it. Horrible mechanic. that's why I main gnw in melee now.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

L-Canceling increases the skill floor without increasing the skill ceiling, whereas literally every other AT increases the skill ceiling.

but it doesn't really, it just shifts both of them upwards. Inputs that are used to reach the skill floor are still used at the skill ceiling, it's not like one doesn't need to l-cancel at a high level

 

[PlateProp]

http://imgur.com/a/6nfad
Went to Supercuts for $10.

Now I need to buy stylish casual wear, which I don't know how.

Grow a beard

 

[Yung Mei]

i suddenly remembered how the Unity Ruleset for brawl came out, and when they banned MK for a few months to see what the metagame would be like without him, A LOT of TO's basically said, "waah, **** that ruleset waah!!!!!!!!!!" and refused to use that ruleset to cater to like the 5 actually good MK mains

brawl ded now rip in pepperonies

 

[Strong Badam]

but it doesn't really, it just shifts both of them upwards. Inputs that are used to reach the skill floor are still used at the skill ceiling, it's not like one doesn't need to l-cancel at a high level

compared to a standard landing lag reduciton, there are no additional options or "intelligent ways" to l-cancel. there is nothing about l-canceling that rewards better players than worse players, you just ALWAYS do it. we do not see gameplay at top level play that would change if l-canceling were automatic. thus, the skill ceiling is unchanged.

 

[SpiderMad]

Grow a beard

Can't.

And I'm tired of shaving with cream and a razor, I wanna just do electric without any creams or nothin (which should be okay?).
Can't decide if to go with this http://www.amazon.com/Braun-3-340s-Wet-Electric-Shaver/dp/B004UQ6Q62/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1427291975&sr=8-4&keywords=electric razor
or this http://www.amazon.com/Philips-Norelco-PT724-46-Shaver/dp/B00JITDVM8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1427291975&sr=8-3&keywords=electric razor

since my hair is all spread out and crap, like this http://imgur.com/RlictCM
so I don't know which of the two would be better

 

[Boiko]

Quick interjection into the L-Cancel debate... Browsing tinder the other night, think she may be the one.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

compared to a standard landing lag reduciton, there are no additional options or "intelligent ways" to l-cancel. there is nothing about l-canceling that rewards better players than worse players, you just ALWAYS do it. we do not see gameplay at top level play that would change if l-canceling were automatic. hence, the skill ceiling is unchanged.

but how do you reconcile that with the fact that the game contains characters whose chief balancing mechanism is the fact that they are difficult and require large amounts of techskill and lots of inputs to be dominant

in a game with fox l-cancelling is kind of a necessity

 

[Strong Badam]

fox is not balanced around l-canceling, if he is broken with auto-l-canceling then he is broken as-is and so is every other character that can be described in that way.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

like fox is broken as-is but he'd be even more dominant with auto-cancelling and be dominant to a degree we might not ever see with manual l-cancelling

he's not balanced around l-cancelling, he's balanced around the fact that hopefully nobody can play perfectly, but auto-l-cancelling makes it a lot easier to play perfectly

 

[eideeiit]

Yes. Let's start discussing Fox. At this point it really does belong here rather than any other place.

EDIT: also LOL at Fox being balanced around anything

 

[GP&B]

I thought Fox had much more significant execution barriers to overcome than just L-canceling.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

in a game with fox l-cancelling is kind of a necessity

You know, I understand that Fox is a very good character, arguably too good in some people's eyes, but I think that might be overestimating it a bit.

If Fox gets "better" with Auto L-Cancelling, so does every other character in the cast. However, I'm under the belief that absolute no techs and abilities with any character at high level play is processed and planned with the possibility of not L-Cancelling in mind anyway. Basically, everything is done and thought of with a successful L-Cancel in mind automatically. That tells me that nothing would actually change aside from having one less button to press and a less pointless margin of error.

Inversely, if he doesn't get any "better" with Auto L-Cancelling, neither does the rest of the cast. They're all still the same. Either case depends solely on the player themselves.

So as much as I know you won't like this answer, it's pretty much the same one that's given on the flip side of this argument so, if you want to beat Fox in a game with Auto L-Cancel...Then simply improve further with your character using Auto L-Cancel.

In other words, "git gud" as some of you like to say.

Asking us to get better with L-Cancelling in play apparently has never been too much to ask in the defending side's eyes for the past almost 2 decades, so I don't see why the opposite would be.

Or maybe I'm just being pretentious and ignorant. -shrugs- I dunno.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

git gud

whelp

 

[SpiderMad]

Where's the thread about improving lifestyle? I lost all of mine when I spent two years re-reading Fox and L-cancelling debates.

 

[Deleted member]

fox's only real barrier is the player's ability to make decisions as fox.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

the real important news for today though:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Binary Clone]

http://imgur.com/a/6nfad
Went to Supercuts for $10.

Now I need to buy stylish casual wear, which I don't know how. Also my nipples are existent, unlike most guy's, so I can't wear certain shirts that easily let them show (which I'm pretty sure is unattractive for guys).

And I just realized the worst part about wearing a lot of hair gel is it's gonna get all over your pillows when you sleep.

Step 1: Wear clothes that fit.

Tons and tons and tons of guys don't know how to wear clothes that fit. Shirts are especially important. I used to wear large shirts, and it was ****ty and I looked terrible through middle/high school. Like halfway through high school I realized this and started buying ****. Because I'm actually a small. And now I look way better. I'm a skinny ass ************ but it doesn't matter that I have no muscle, because shirts that fit are just innately better looking.

Other than that, basically look at other guys whose outfits you like, figure out the components of their dress, try to break down why you like it and how to emulate it.

 

[Broccoli]

Quick interjection into the L-Cancel debate... Browsing tinder the other night, think she may be the one.

I bet she mains fox and quintuple shines for funzies.