Project M Social Thread Gold

[Gamegenie222]

 

[9bit]

...I am talking about running though? I'm talking about running towards your opponent.

At any point during your run you can hit or hold DOWN on the control stick and then input any move you want. A jab, a tilt, a smash attack, whatever you want. It's that easy.

If you hit UP or JUMP right before GRAB you will do a standing grab instead of the (usually) laggier dash grab.

l2p

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Just

and it's a non-issue.

 

[Frostav]

You don't have to do any tech to run up and dtilt an enemy with Marth, that happens naturally. It sounds to me like you aren't very familiar with the games mechanics.

You literally just said that I have to pivot to dtilt from a dash.

If the enemy is across the stage, I'm gonna wanna run up to them since Marth has no projectiles. I lose the vast majority of my moveset when I'm running to them, despite the fact that I am actively approaching. And a wavedash wont take me to them, so I have no choice but to run to them unless I want to wait for them to approach and play a bait-and-punish style (but this isn't Sm4sh kappa)

In other words, I am punished for trying to approach.

In the meanwhile in Blazblue/Guilty Gear/Arcana Heart/any other fighting game if I want to dash up to someone and use 2A, I hit 6 (forward) twice to start the dash and then just hit 2A.

At any point during your run you can hit or hold DOWN on the control stick and then input any move you want. A jab, a tilt, a smash attack, whatever you want. It's that easy.

If you hit UP or JUMP right before GRAB you will do a standing grab instead of the (usually) laggier dash grab.

l2p

I did not know that. But why is that extra step even there?

Why can't I just dash to the enemy and hit, say, up+A to uptilt them? Why do I have to spend an extra useless action pressing down just to free up my moveset?

This may blow your mind but controls being needlessly obtuse doesn't make them better. And "git gud" isn't a response either, Smash has THE most obtuse control system of any fighting game and what's worse is that most of it could be pared down and nothing would change.

 

[Player -0]

Trying to D-Tilt forward when dashing is awkward. Which is why you learn to WD.

This honestly isn't really a problem unless you play Brawl or Smash 4. Just practice your movement.

Also why is dashing safer than running? You can crouch out of a run, which lets you have all of your other options, while you can't during a dash.

Edit -

If the enemy is across the stage, I'm gonna wanna run up to them since Marth has no projectiles. I lose the vast majority of my moveset when I'm running to them, despite the fact that I am actively approaching. And a wavedash wont take me to them, so I have no choice but to run to them unless I want to wait for them to approach and play a bait-and-punish style (but this isn't Sm4sh kappa)

Press down out of the run. If you don't like it, that's how Smash works and there are no plans to change it as of now.

 

[Saito]

I did not know that. But why is that extra step even there?

Why can't I just dash to the enemy and hit, say, up+A to uptilt them? Why do I have to spend an extra useless action pressing down just to free up my moveset?

So dash attacks can exist

 

[Frostav]

So dash attacks can exist

Dash attacks are near universally-terrible (or incredibly situational). I would not miss them in the slightest if they were gone.

 

[Player -0]

There are a ton of good dash attacks and they also lead into DACUS'.

Some examples: Snake's, Fox's, Kirby's, Mario's, Peach's, Sheik's, Bowser's, etc etc etc etc.

Edit - How long have you been playing?

 

[Draco_The]

Dash attacks are near universally-terrible (or incredibly situational). I would not miss them in the slightest if they were gone.

If they were that bad the PMDT would have removed them.

 

[Hylian]

You literally just said that I have to pivot to dtilt from a dash.

If the enemy is across the stage, I'm gonna wanna run up to them since Marth has no projectiles. I lose the vast majority of my moveset when I'm running to them, despite the fact that I am actively approaching. And a wavedash wont take me to them, so I have no choice but to run to them unless I want to wait for them to approach and play a bait-and-punish style (but this isn't Sm4sh kappa)

In other words, I am punished for trying to approach.

In the meanwhile in Blazblue/Guilty Gear/Arcana Heart/any other fighting game if I want to dash up to someone and use 2A, I hit 6 (forward) twice to start the dash and then just hit 2A.


I did not know that. But why is that extra step even there?

Why can't I just dash to the enemy and hit, say, up+A to uptilt them? Why do I have to spend an extra useless action pressing down just to free up my moveset?

This may blow your mind but controls being needlessly obtuse doesn't make them better. And "git gud" isn't a response either, Smash has THE most obtuse control system of any fighting game and what's worse is that most of it could be pared down and nothing would change.

Please, point out to me where I said you HAVE to pivot to dtilt from a dash. I never said that, I said you have every option available to you out of a dash through pivoting. That doesn't mean you NEED to pivot to do every option, you can dtilt fine out of a dash because you have to press down to dtilt, which allows you to use any move because you are put into a crouch state.

You DON'T lose the vast majority of your moveset while you are running, especially considering most approaches are done in the air aside from grabs which can be done out of a run lol. You can also you know..wavedash out of your run. Or crouch etc etc. You are not punished for trying to approach, you are punished for not learning the games mechanics. Yes, it's different from standard fighting games. Once you understand the movement options in this game you will understand why people like it so much though. Sure it's convoluted and hard, but that is one of the things that makes it interesting. I also play other fighters and understand where you are coming from, but this game only feels clunky when you are bad at it, you have much more freedom of control in this game than in streetfighter in regards to movement. If you approach this game with a fundamental fighter mindeset you aren't going to enjoy it.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

inb4 this was a troll

 

[Leafeon]

goddamn tech to run up and dtilt an enemy with Marth.

Have you tried pressing down from a dash, and then hitting the A button
considering you can crouch out of it.... >>;

 

[Saito]

inb4 this was a troll

Someone isn't familiar with smash's mechanics.

It's more common than you think.

 

[Hylian]

In fact, my friend and I made a video SPECIFICALLY for street fighter players getting into smash and I recommend you watch it @ Frostav :

 

[Frostav]

There are a ton of good dash attacks and they also lead into DACUS'.

Some examples: Snake's, Fox's, Kirby's, Mario's, Peach's, Sheik's, Bowser's, etc etc etc etc.

Edit - How long have you been playing?

Been playing casually all my life. I always preferred Melee's gameplay to Brawl's though even as a casual. About several months ago, I decided to up my game after getting into other fighting games (I play Blazblue, Guilty Gear, and Arcana Heart but I'm awful at them though :V). I've never attended a tournament though and the only other moderately-skilled players I've played were the esports club members at my college once. I only play Melee and P:M (and I vastly prefer the latter for it's balance and variety).

Look, I'm just approaching this from the perspective of a player of traditional fighting games, where they take pains to make motions as simple as possible without sacrificing depth so people don't murder their hands. Smash's dash mechanics bug me, and I'm allowed to an opinion on a goddamn video game.

I love Smash, but I don't like the way that you have to grind a bunch of AT's just so you can actually move around in peace. I don't have to spend several days practicing obtuse motions just to walk and jump in Blazblue or Guilty Gear. I still like Smash. I'll deal and learn them, but holy **** let me have an opinion. Sorry I hurt your feelings and interrupted the circlejerk, goddamn

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You literally just said that I have to pivot to dtilt from a dash.

If the enemy is across the stage, I'm gonna wanna run up to them since Marth has no projectiles. I lose the vast majority of my moveset when I'm running to them, despite the fact that I am actively approaching. And a wavedash wont take me to them, so I have no choice but to run to them unless I want to wait for them to approach and play a bait-and-punish style (but this isn't Sm4sh kappa)

In other words, I am punished for trying to approach.

...how? It's no different than being mindful of your spacing/movement in any other traditional fighter. Hell, even in 3D fighters, which is probably even more apt in Smash's case. Ever play Tekken? Soul Calibur? Those games have very interesting ways of approaching, especially in the case of Tekken, where at high level play footsies are a lot like Smash footsies.

In the meanwhile in Blazblue/Guilty Gear/Arcana Heart/any other fighting game if I want to dash up to someone and use 2A, I hit 6 (forward) twice to start the dash and then just hit 2A.

At least in the case of Melee and PM, this is no different than smashing the stick forward to run and seamlessly going to whatever move you want from crouching out of the run (yes, it is seamless, you should try it sometime). It's actually far less obtuse and strenuous than you're making it out to be.

This may blow your mind but controls being needlessly obtuse doesn't make them better. And "git gud" isn't a response either, Smash has THE most obtuse control system of any fighting game and what's worse is that most of it could be pared down and nothing would change.

Actually, a lot of **** would change. It definitely wouldn't be Smash anymore; maybe Smash-like? I dunno. As for better or worse? That depends. I doubt you could even say for sure.

Like Hylian said, try learning the game as it is. Watch the video that he just posted in the time it took me to drum my post up.

Edit: Oh we're a circlejerk now? Okay then.

You know, it's all well and fine to have an opinion and all, but you should probably work on how you phrase ****.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Draco_The]

In fact, my friend and I made a video SPECIFICALLY for street fighter players getting into smash and I recommend you watch it @ Frostav :

Huh, I didn't know about that video. I know a couple guys who may give it some use.

 

[FlareHabanero]

On an unrelated note, I remember someone saying I should commentate matches due to me having the energy in my voice. I would actually like to try that at least once.

 

[9bit]

@ Frostav What you're doing is like I if I came in to a SF4 forum and complained that the special moves take too many stick movements and button presses. Like "how come I have to hit quarter circle punch to do a haduken, why can't it just be 1 button?"

Smash doesn't have complex inputs for attacks (mostly), but it does have complex inputs for movement.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Frostav What you're doing is like I if I came in to a SF4 forum and complained that the special moves take too many stick movements and button presses. Like "how come I have to hit quarter circle punch to do a haduken, why can't it just be 1 button?"

Smash doesn't have complex inputs for attacks (mostly), but it does have complex inputs for movement.

Man, maybe this kid should play KoF, or maybe I-No pre-Xrd. Pretzel inputs for ****ing days.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Hylian]

Been playing casually all my life. I always preferred Melee's gameplay to Brawl's though even as a casual. About several months ago, I decided to up my game after getting into other fighting games (I play Blazblue, Guilty Gear, and Arcana Heart but I'm awful at them though :V). I've never attended a tournament though and the only other moderately-skilled players I've played were the esports club members at my college once. I only play Melee and P:M (and I vastly prefer the latter for it's balance and variety).

Look, I'm just approaching this from the perspective of a player of traditional fighting games, where they take pains to make motions as simple as possible without sacrificing depth so people don't murder their hands. Smash's dash mechanics bug me, and I'm allowed to an opinion on a goddamn video game.

I love Smash, but I don't like the way that you have to grind a bunch of AT's just so you can actually move around in peace. I don't have to spend several days practicing obtuse motions just to walk and jump in Blazblue or Guilty Gear. I still like Smash. I'll deal and learn them, but holy **** let me have an opinion. Sorry I hurt your feelings and interrupted the circlejerk, goddamn

I don't think most smashers will understand this, but that is a perfectly valid opinion. Street Fighter is brilliant in it's design in regards to what you are talking about. Smash was not made to be competitive however, it's immense depth comes from the complexity of it's movement mechanics and how they affect the neutral interactions of the cast. It's hard to understand it until you're familiar with it, which makes the game competitively a chore to get into, it's crazy how much smash is blowing up despite these flaws though and I think you'll be surprised if you put in the work to understand it's mechanics. Watch my video, it will help .

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sorry, @ Hylian , my empathy button broke when he referred to us as a circlejerk. Maybe a little humility would help in his learning.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Saito]

I'd say one's experience with any fighting game would determine whether or not the controls feel intuitive or convoluted to each player.

I get where you're coming from since I've gone through essentially the same thing when trying out traditional fighters but from a mostly smash background.

It works out with some practice though and the more you play, the more natural the movement will feel.

interrupted the circlejerk, goddamn

Most of the people here are very familiar about the mechanics of the game, so it seems like it's a lot of parroting.

 

[OSCA MIKE]

@Raccoon Chuck

@Alakaslam
i know you requested no gray, but

Spoiler

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

In other words, I am punished for trying to approach.

I mean yeah that happens sometimes that's what the neutral is for

Smash has THE most obtuse control system of any fighting game and what's worse is that most of it could be pared down and nothing would change.

lol this is like objectively false smash is so much more intuitive than traditional fighters
do I want to grab somebody? there's a button for that
do I want to block? there's a button for that
do I want to block and move backward? why there's rolls for that
do I want to do a move that hits above me? oh I'll tilt my control stick up and do an utilt rather than doing something like a tiger knee input
do I want to do one move after another move? It's a good thing every move can take place an equal amount of time after another without arbitrary cancel patterns (unless you play lucario)
do I want to walk fast? ok I'll tilt the stick all the way
do I want to walk really slow? ok I'll barely tilt it
do I want to walk at a medium speed? ok I'll tilt the stick somewhere in between
do I want to have almost total control over what direction my character jumps in and which direction it faces during that jump? it's a good thing I'm not using a solely 8-directional joystick

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Of course movement is the most complex thing to learn in a game about movement.

And I'm not sure if everyone understands here. You can't crouch during dash, you can crouch during run. They're two different animations. Dashing is the startup of run (when you can input a dashdance or an empty pivot), and run is the animation you go into if you keep holding forwards after dash (when you can input a crouch).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Out of a run, then.

I'm not editing my posts. :v

Smooth Criminal

 

[Gamegenie222]

Kids these days LMAO.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

"Don't get hit"
:^)

 

[Frostav]

@ Frostav What you're doing is like I if I came in to a SF4 forum and complained that the special moves take too many stick movements and button presses. Like "how come I have to hit quarter circle punch to do a haduken, why can't it just be 1 button?"

Smash doesn't have complex inputs for attacks (mostly), but it does have complex inputs for movement.

The difference is that those games are designed to be used with arcade sticks, controllers that are designed from the ground up to be used with these games and make doing their required motions easy. I should know: I have one, a Qanba Q1.

The gamecube controller, while an amazing controller, was not expressly built to play Smash. I have been practicing wavedashing on and off for the past few days and I still do not have it down.

Indeed, if you read the post of mine which started this, you would have realized that it was originally about how wavedashing is an obtuse mechanic. If dashes were:

-near-instantenous
-Allowed you to do any moves from them just like you were standing (no dash attacks)
-Allowed you to cancel into an (near-instant) turnaround

Then wavedashing wouldn't really have a point because dashing would fulfill its purpose. I have been designing a platform fighter for a while on paper and one of the choices I made was to use the above dashing system instead of Smash's, and I decided to post my reasoning in this thread for fun.

Christ, did you guys have really be so harsh on me? I'm just trying to get better and musing on the mechanics and you guys are treating me like utter trash just because I'm a noob?

 

[Draco_The]

Take SFIV 3DS or SFIV Volt where you have 1 button input for specials, Supers, Ultras, etc. and add Zangief's Ultra 1 to the mix. Without having to perform a 360 (or whatever angle) it gets REALLY stupid, and I'm talking from experience.

Well, for Smash is mostly the same. "Clunky" controls are also for balance purposes. If you had for example a single button for wavedashing... My God.

 

[Player -0]

Words about things

Honestly the movement doesn't feel that awkward once you get into it. It's like the combo/OHC's of SF. I played some USF4 at a friends house for the first time once and a lot of the inputs were a pain to remember + hard to time.

Think about SF's inputs for combos and then apply that to Smash's movement. Playing SF made me appreciate Smash's relative "easiness" for combos and things.

Also as a side note going into a thread with a controversial opinion then calling the people in the thread a circlejerk is a bit... rude? Smash's inputs have been the same and it seems like you're questioning the fundamentals of the game. It's a bit like questioning why Smash uses a percentage + blastzone for games instead of a stamina bar.

Edit - So are people meaning a run is safer than a dash? Run seems a LOT safer because you can crouch out of it while you can't out of a dash. I really want an answer to this (not sure if I'm missing something about dashing).

 

[Frostav]

Also as a side note going into a thread with a controversial opinion then calling the people in the thread a circlejerk is a bit... rude?

I said that out of anger because of how rude everyone was just because I didn't pick up the controller for the first time and double 4stock Mango. I'm not good at Smash right now. I'll be the first to admit that. I'm not good at ANY fighting game either. I'm sincerely sorry for losing my temper like that, but you guys basically treated me like trash for bringing up an opinion and daring to be a noob. That's gonna make people angry, especially when the entire thread is doing it.

 

[Rᴏb]

I would suggest getting thicker skin, who cares what nerds say to you on a forum; even if they have a point.

At least now you know wavecheating isn't as good as you originally thought it was.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Maybe instead of lashing out with anger, maybe instead of "musing" (which feels to me like a clever guise for complaining about the fundamentals of Smash not being like 2D fighters, as Player -0 mentioned), you probably should have demonstrated at least a little bit of humility.

That's the first step in learning anything.

@ Rᴏb

Yeah, I mean, look at this guy. Yamcha is his totem animal. You know how many times he's been assailed by the nerd-y hordes?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Leafeon]

When comparing Smash to other traditional fighters, one of the things that bugs me about it is the sheer level of commitment that dashing is in Smash. In Smash when you dash you suffer a massive startup, lose the ability to any attacks besides a special dash attack (which usually sucks) and overall just lose a lot of ability to do anything. In most fighters, dashing is just faster walking: it's near instance, you can do every attack like normal, and can cancel it at any time.

I'm pretty half the reason wavedashing is so important to high-level Smash play is because it's the only way to retain full access to your moveset while moving. If dashes worked like traditional fighters (near-instant startup, you can use all your moves while dashing like when you're standing, no dash attacks), I'm certain wavedashing would be near borderline-useless in most situations.

I said that out of anger because of how rude everyone was just because I didn't pick up the controller for the first time and double 4stock Mango. I'm not good at Smash right now. I'll be the first to admit that. I'm not good at ANY fighting game either. I'm sincerely sorry for losing my temper like that, but you guys basically treated me like trash for bringing up an opinion and daring to be a noob. That's gonna make people angry, especially when the entire thread is doing it.

The problem was that you started with a statement that was innately wrong, people provided counter arguments, and then you decided that they were attacks to your person and treating you like trash.

 

[GP&B]

You overreacted and were way more defensive than you needed to be. Aim to achieve understanding if you know you aren't any good at the game, not try and uproot it because it doesn't work like something you're familiar with.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Doesn't this look like a shine?

Spoiler

Shine confirmed 4-dimensional

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Doesn't this look like a shine?

Spoiler

Shine confirmed 4-dimensional

 

[Saito]

Christ, did you guys have really be so harsh on me? I'm just trying to get better and musing on the mechanics and you guys are treating me like utter trash just because I'm a noob?

We're here to inform you because you aren't too familiar with the mechanics.

How aggressive or passive people seem is up to your interpretation, but you're making bold statements so people are going to explain the mechanics defensively, which seems like aggression, especially with multiple people saying it. I'm not saying no one was aggressive either.

Indeed, if you read the post of mine which started this, you would have realized that it was originally about how wavedashing is an obtuse mechanic. If dashes were:

-near-instantenous
-Allowed you to do any moves from them just like you were standing (no dash attacks)
-Allowed you to cancel into an (near-instant) turnaround

Then wavedashing wouldn't really have a point because dashing would fulfill its purpose.

The problem with this is that the cast would lose access to the benefits of wavedashing/wavelanding onto platforms/back onto the stage, which arguably can be more important than wavedashing by itself.