Project M Social Thread Gold

[Bleck]

Did they always suck, or did they poorly age Bleck? I'm not clear on what you are trying to get at.

They were never good - they're extremely pretty and the music is fantastic, but as far as actual game design goes, they're a mess.

Basically the big problem is that Sonic's identity as a character clashes with the design of the game - Sonic plays like the fastest thing alive, but the challenge in the games comes from how you're basically punished for going fast at every opportunity. There's no meaningful punishment, either, for taking any damage (rings are essentially infinite once obtained) like in a Mario game or any other game with traditional health - literally enemies and hazards exist just to make you slow down. The problem with (the Genesis) Sonic games is that there's no healthy middle ground between "you're going fast but the game is playing itself" and "you're standing in place waiting for a hazard to get the **** outta the way", so they swing wildly from "hell yes" to "what am I doing this is boring". If you replaced Sonic with a character that didn't accelerate so fast and reduced all of the long sections where you're just automatically running through ramps, they'd be okay, but that's not what we have.

A lot of people in response to me saying this will say that you're supposed to play the games over and over and over until you know them by heart and then you get to go fast - but that's stupid. The main draw of a game should not be a thing that you're only allowed to enjoy once you've worked at it; challenge should be intrinsic to an experience, not a hindrance to it. The challenge should be in doing what a character can do, not in doing other things so that you can have a brief glimpse of what a character can do; in Super Mario Bros for the NES, Mario jumps really well, but the challenge is in using his abilities to jump on and over obstacles. In Sonic The Hedgehog for the Genesis, Sonic can run really fast - and the challenge is in jumping over blocks and avoiding spikes so that you can get to the brief sections where you can run really fast totally unhindered by obstacles. The game actively punishes you for what you're supposed to want to do - a Mario game doesn't expect you to jump into holes or walk into enemies, but a Sonic game will straight up put a wall of spikes right off-screen for you to run into, just for having the audacity to want to see Sonic run fast.

They're mediocre platformers on their own, but when you consider player expectations, they're actually pretty crappy games. Modern Sonic games have been ****ty for various other reasons - the closest they've come to being good were Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations, and even those games basically still suffer from lesser versions of the same problem (Sonic rarely goes fast, especially later on) while adding some problems of their own (QTEs are not good gameplay).

 

[shairn]

Bleck has heavily developed opinions on Sonic

 

[Bleck]

it's true!

 

[Strong Badam]

we playin http://twitch.tv/strong_badam

 

[Empyrean]

I must say, that made a lot of sense, regardless of whether I agree or not.

 

[Deleted member]

we playin http://twitch.tv/strong_badam

You should totally go to Zael's Smashfest tomorrow at like, 5:30 PM ish. It would be a nice warmup before you go to IaB on Thursday, if you go anyways.

I can PM you the address if you're interested.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Anyone who thinks Sonic Colors was good (or close to it) and gotta go fast is a good design philosophy shouldn't be taken seriously on Sonic game design.

Ignoring the obvious observation that bottomless pits and spikes out of nowhere are bad in the early games, speed should be treated like a power up. Sure you can try to use it all the time like a moron or you can use it at appropriate times. The fact some players can't tell the difference isn't the game's fault, especially not in S3&K.

 

[Soft Serve]

Everybody needs to see this comeback by @ Soft Serve

lmao <3

edit: i'm late oops watch it again anyways you nerds

This would have been a lot more impressive If they weren't sandbagging a bit(game 3 you can tell they stopped sandbagging and letting me do my CPU synergy gimmicks), and my GnW was more than just a pocket watch. If Heysuess had done Dthrow>regrab on my di in>fthrow instead of dthrow dropzone fair I would have died. I also put myself in so many bad spots, can't believe I got away with half of them. I got hit by the down b, I could have sworn I rolled correctly >.>

The really impressive thing is I made it out of round 1 winners

I already complemented the first edgeguard conversion last time, so imma settle with saying how much I **** my pants when he challenged the charged ddd fsmash off the ledge.

My gnw lives life on the edgeee

Literally I'm on the ledge most of the game, and even that set



I finished season 1 of Jojo, pretty good

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Anyone who thinks Sonic Colors was good (or close to it) and gotta go fast is a good design philosophy shouldn't be taken seriously on Sonic game design.

Ignoring the obvious observation that bottomless pits and spikes out of nowhere are bad in the early games, speed should be treated like a power up. Sure you can try to use it all the time like a moron or you can use it at appropriate times. The fact some players can't tell the difference isn't the game's fault, especially not in S3&K.

Did Sonic Colors "bad touch" you Kid?

It's okay, you'll move past it and then the stars will shine so bright and the colors will feel so right. You've never felt like this, so keep on running.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Playing the game felt similar to that, yes.

 

[Saito]

gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8

only bleck would say some **** like this lmfao

They were never good - they're extremely pretty and the music is fantastic, but as far as actual game design goes, they're a mess....

I tried to warn you people.

Bleck's perfect for a bait and punish.

He throws out a post that seems relatively safe to punish, but just like lucario, it cancels on hit and allows him to not only break your shield, but cause mad disrespect at the same time.

I'm always wary of that match-up. gotta respect those tools at his disposal.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

I tried to warn you people.

You know, it's only thanks to you guys that I can tell Bleck is in here doing his usual thing even when I can't see his posts. lol

 

[~Dad~]

sonic has never been good

This might look like an opinion, but it isn't.

 

[Bleck]

Sure you can try to use it all the time like a moron or you can use it at appropriate times. The fact some players can't tell the difference isn't the game's fault, especially not in S3&K.

there's always somebody who comes in to basically say "you're just bad at Sonic games" and I always ignore them

(I mean I'm acknowledging this post exists but ehhhhh)

 

[InfinityCollision]

Superman is the worst written, most overpowered character I have ever seen in my life.
That is a million times dumber than Thunder Armor.

Superpowers/magic/etc are inherently ridiculous. They only survive as a common feature in stories because authors (deliberately or otherwise) avoid exploring the full, terrifying implications of the powers they've granted and/or impose arbitrary rules in a (generally unsuccessful) attempt to put a reasonable limit on said powers. Otherwise the stories would all basically boil down to "everyone dies, except maybe the most creative and ruthless member of the cast".

Superman just gets to be more overtly ridiculous in exchange for wearing his undies on the wrong side of his pants.

 

[Saito]

This might look like an opinion, but it isn't.

I'm tempted to see what pages this was said on the last two times sonic was brought up.

I don't even care if sonic games are bad design wise or what not, If I'm enjoying it then that's all okay with me.

Sonic Adventure 2 still da bes sonic game for this guy.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Unlike everyone else and their overly angry demanding ways, I'm simple.

If it plays either like S3&K or the Advance Series, The Adventure games + Heroes, or Sonic Rush + Modern Sonic in Generations and has characters I can use other than Sonic, preferably Blaze, then I'm happy.

Sonic 4 sucked. Lost World sucked. Boom was just a ****ty spinoff tie-in that wasn't even an actual tie-in and had an alternate continuity within the alternate continuity, don't care about Runners cause **** the shovelware games.

Not expecting much for this year, but 2016 needs to be absolutely amazing for the silver (25th) anniversary.

Still, I love my Sonic games. No amount of rage and whining from the fanbase and other unimportant people is going to change that. <3

 

[Bleck]

I love playing SA2 even though I know it's a terrible game

also everyone who thinks that Superman is a bad character "because he's too good at fighting" is straight up an idiot

like seriously tell me more about how the most meaningful part of comic book stories is who wins fights

tell me more about how you're apparently incapable of understanding art except in a capacity other than how triumphant it was when a dude punched another dude the hardest

tell me more about how you're a ****ty fake comic nerd and you don't know anything about comic books

 

[PlateProp]

Guis

Squirtle tech is giving me Hax Hand

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Otherwise the stories would all basically boil down to "everyone dies, except maybe the most creative and ruthless member of the cast".

I thought you were talking about Superman, not Batman.

Superman just gets to be more overtly ridiculous in exchange for wearing his undies on the wrong side of his pants.

Until New 52 where he's finally wearing them on the inside and is even more ridiculous and more of a completely aware total douchebag as opposed to his previous obliviously douchebaggy incarnations.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Superman is supposed to be the Cape™.
He has hubris now.

^Needs pulling, only half-joking.
@ PlateProp So go see a doctor.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Guis

Squirtle tech is giving me Hax Hand

Good. ¦(

That's what you get for playing Squirtle.

Damn heathen.

 

[PlateProp]

Superman is supposed to be the Cape™.
He has hubris now.

^Needs pulling, only half-joking.
@ PlateProp So go see a doctor.

I was joking (for now)

The amount of stick flicking for Squirtle stuff is just so ridiculous

Also @ ~Dad~ I discovered what bthrow is for

 

[GHNeko]

ITT: Bleck says how platforming games should be designed and that others ways of design are not valid. He decries Sonic's design for entirely subjective reasons, but speaks as if what he says is objectively correct.

The genesis Sonic games reward you with speed/success/power for precision platforming skill that is built up through repeatedly playing the game. All platforms do this to some degree. But even then, for people playing it for the first time, it's not like the levels don't work well for first time players and are easy to adept to and play freely. Especially Sonic 2 and 3, which have some of the most beginner friendly levels that allow you to go at high speeds without throwing nonsense in your way out of the blue, while giving you the skills you need as you progress throughout the levels. Really, Sonic 1 is the worst offender of "GOING FAST INTO ENEMIES/HAZARDS."

Sonic is inherently a pinball-physics based platformer that just doesn't operate like other platformers. Like, really it is its own type game because once you got good at Sonic 1, you were good at Sonic 2 and 3 because you had the skills and reflects to properly utilize the pinball physics within the game.

With Sonic 1-3, only a poor lack of reaction time gets you punished for running forward blindly, and even then, a majority of the obstacles are circumvented by simply holding DOWN while running or JUMPING over them.

Because the sonic games have a sense of speed, reaction time is all the more important compared to something like Mario or Kirby.

Of course, the genesis games arent perfect and do have design flaws, but so does every other ****ing game out there.

While it is an appeal to the masses to say that how the **** can Sonic 1-3 be bad if it's held in such high esteems by millions of people, even after all this time...but really. If that many people like it, surely they did a lot right with the games. And you really cant just contribute it to MARKETING HYPE because it's Sonic 1 THROUGH 3 that is held with critical acclaim, which each one being more loved than the last.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I thought you were talking about Superman, not Batman.

I was speaking in general (also both Batman and Superman still play by the author's rules), but wasn't there a comic where Batman beat the entire Justice League or some ****? I'm not a comics guy.

 

[Comeback Kid]

No, Batman had secret files on everyone and Ras Al Ghul used those plans against them. But that was Batman being his usual paranoid self and not his intention to use them.

The spinball is the gameplay mechanic created to keep your speed while being protected like GHNeko said. It's almost like the game designers already figured out the solution to the design problem.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

also everyone who thinks that Superman is a bad character "because he's too good at fighting" is straight up an idiot

Superman's a bad character because he's usually poorly written or portrayed, and there have been very few works that have given the character any real depth or dimension.

I've said it in this thread before, but you really have to wade through a lot of **** in comic books to get to the good stuff. That's why I usually read self-contained stuff or anthologies anymore.

@ InfinityCollision

What Comeback Kid said. There was also OMAC, which Batman helped create.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lizalfos]

Yeah, Sonic is kinda terrible in concept.
I see how it is cool to really master a level, but that doesn't make your game fun to play the majority of the time I spend trying to get gud (especially because this level mastery is hardly what is expected of the player as opposed to games that set mastery as the rule).

In my mind, speed should be a tool the player manipulates to traverse the level terrain. There should be ways to change momentum, maybe bounce off of walls, or increase your fall speed. I would ideally want to see it more as a puzzle platformer that you could breeze through problems after a bit of thought and progress in a satisfying quick way.

Edit: I think I described Sonic 2 and 3 :L

Superman sucks for the same reason Samus Aran sucks. They are perfect aside from their complete lack of personality and parents.

 

[~Dad~]

Sonic has a stupid face and is bad and no good.
























imo

 

[robosteven]

Mmm sopooo

I know that as far as this thread goes this is a pretty old post to be replying to, but how much of the IC's fair sends people downward? I expected the fair to send DDD upward and end the combo (but instead there was that dope as hell followup). Was that changed from 3.0?

 

[Bleck]

blah blah blah I'm good at Sonic games

yeah whatever kiddo

Superman's a bad character because he's usually poorly written or portrayed, and there have been very few works that have given the character any real depth or dimension.

if "bad stories exist with this character" makes a character bad, literally every comic book character in history is bad

I see how it is cool to really master a level, but that doesn't make your game fun to play the majority of the time I spend trying to get gud.

yeah this basically

contrary to belief that's depressingly popular among dumb sperglord "gamerz", games are supposed to be entertaining - a game like Mega Man carefully teaches you how to play as you play it by showing you obstacles and letting you decide how to overcome them

Sonic throws you into some spikes or a hole or something and then expects you to know better the next time you play the game, and like maybe it's just that I don't have social problems or something but I'm not gonna keep playing a game repeatedly forever if it wasn't actually fun the first time

 

[Ripple]

anyone have the beastV set up link?

 

[JOE!]

if "bad stories exist with this character" makes a character bad, literally every comic book character in history is bad

I think it's more referring to how it seems stories with Supes in it seem to default to beign worse for having him, thus the character could be seen as bad as he is the common factor or something.

Idk Im trying to rationalize it when sleep deprived lol

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

S3&K is literally the only classic game I like. (Love actually, but still)

2 is okay, and just okay. No reason to go back to it after 3&K, though.

1 is boring as hell and always has been from the start for me.

**** SONIC CD. (Before the 2011 version anyway. That one is solid, but still kinda meh all the same.)

 

[Comeback Kid]

Don't worry guys Superman is your typical cocky jerk superhero in the comics now.

Which funny enough makes him more bland than he was when he actually had principles and stood for something.

 

[Bleck]

I think it's more referring to how it seems stories with Supes in it seem to default to beign worse for having him, thus the character could be seen as bad as he is the common factor or something.

yeahhh I can see how someone might believe that if they don't read comic books or something

 

[Smooth Criminal]

yeahhh I can see how someone might believe that if they don't read comic books or something

God forbid if I did once upon a time.

I was gonna say, you're right. Literally every comic book character in history has been godawful at some point. I can't think of a series that hasn't had a ****ty run or three because of the revolving door nature of the industry. Some have bad writers, some have bad artists, and some have had a combination of both (I'm looking at you, pre-Millennium Marvel).

But I can't think of any Superman stories that I have personally read where I enjoyed the exploits of the character.

Smooth Criminal

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Good thing the DCAU exists.
No edgelording or bad/agenda-possessing writers meddling in there, no sir.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Bleck]

Literally every comic book character in history has been godawful at some point. I can't think of a series that hasn't had a ****ty run or three because of the revolving door nature of the industry.

yeah basically

one bad story (or many, let's be real here) doesn't ruin the bunch - the existence of ****ty Superman stories doesn't mean that there are no good Superman stories

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If you have recommendations for me aside from the almost obligatory Red Son, I'm all for it.

I should probably work on how I phrase ****, lol.

Smooth Criminal