Project M Social Thread Gold

[ZiggaWaTT]

I guess no one wanted to talk about starcraft earlier I would go to starcraftboards (teamliquid) but all I would probably hear there is "EVERY RACE BUT MINE IS IMBALANCED!"

 

[Warsaint777]

I guess no one wanted to talk about starcraft earlier I would go to starcraftboards (teamliquid) but all I would probably hear there is "EVERY RACE BUT MINE IS IMBALANCED!"

Oh dude i'll talk to you bout SC hardcore. Did you see the new **** on LotV yet?

I used to love debating about unit/race balance on the boards. Exhausting endeavor though yes.

 

[JANKX]

I understand that the Smash franchise is first and foremost a party game that celebrates the entire history of Nintendo, as well as being a #1 seller for their business. From that perspective, I understand why Nintendo's been going through lengths to sponsor tournaments and get the word out on Smash Wii U (at the expense of PM). And at the same time, I respect their decision to not C&D PM, and I very well anticipated a cold winter season for the whole PM community due to the release window of Sm4sh. Despite all these things, I still think the PM community will thrive, especially with 3.5 coming out in the near future. Once Nintendo stops sponsoring tourneys, hopefully PM will make a strong comeback in the competitive community.

With Sm4sh already out, I think it's pretty fun, and those who focus on the game will advance the meta into something interesting. I have some friends who seem really happy with the 3DS version so far, and these were the same people who thought Brawl was acceptable. I still played Brawl a decent amount, mainly because they didn't like losing in Melee and wanted more character variety. If Sm4sh ends up being as unbalanced as Brawl was, I can look forward to sandbagging in friendlies because at least it evens the playing field and makes the fight interesting for both sides.

Just want to state though that the main reason Sm4sh has so few combos isn't really vectoring as much as it is low hitstun and low-risk airdodges. Vectoring in another environment, like PM, probably wouldn't be that big of a deal besides invalidating most DI mix-ups and making flowcharting punishments like 10x harder, which for most people isn't a huge deal since they tend to just improvise combos with BnB stuff mixed in (but it's a big deal to me since I develop like half my punishments beforehand in the lab).

I agree that Sm4sh would have been so much better with increased hitstun, at the very least. The game so far feels like it has really flowcharty combos at low percents, and then becomes a game of cat-and-mouse at higher percents because of the weakness of hitstun and the strength of knockback, vectoring and defense options. I actually don't think vectoring is that bad of a concept, and is actually intuitive (before learning about DI I'm sure most of us were trying to vector in previous Smash titles), and the fact that it makes trajectories far less predictable could have been a plus to the competitive depth of the game if the hitstun allowed for more followups to string. The problem is not really a single component to the games design, but how all the mechanics are balanced together. In many ways, I think the strength of vectoring, the weakness of hitstun, the buffed recoveries, blastzones, rage mechanic, etc. were the dev team's solution to making the game "balanced."

I'm amazed that single player stuff has actually continuously gotten worse though. Classic does look interesting, but I don't really care for "Angry Birds, but with targets".

That Angry Birds mode made me so mad when I saw it. Break the Targets was such a great concept because the courses were designed specifically for each character. It's one of those things that hardcores would love, but would alienate casuals. I almost want to pop in Melee right now to play that and Adventure Mode.

 

[ZiggaWaTT]

Yes I did see the new LotV stuff! Thats what made me want to talk about SC in the first place. Most of the ideas for the new units seem pretty interesting. Also lurker is back yay! :D Love that they are giving terran mech some more love. Protoss changes seem a little underwhelming however but just like with HotS, a lot of this stuff will change

 

[Paquito]

the reason is that what the competitive community wants is not automatically what's best for the game

also keep in mind that brawl sold almost twice as well as melee did in the long run - the idea that the competitive community is what's gonna drive the dollar is a fantasy

Take a wider-view than just how many copies of the game are sold. Support for competitive play and streaming is tantamount to free advertising for Nintendo. Core-gamers that are into competitive fighting games could have taken an interest in the game, and picked up the Wii-U where they might not have, otherwise. More consoles sold means a bigger player base for third-party developers to try to sell to, leading to more titles on the system.

This isn't to say the Wii-U's problems are because of sm4sh. It's more to point out that the irrational decisions Nintendo has made with Brawl and Sm4sh is reflective of their wider reluctance to embrace what core-gamers want out of a console experience. There's a reason why Nintendo admitted that their strategy with the original Wii failed, despite their sales numbers.

 

[Warsaint777]

Yes I did see the new LotV stuff! Thats what made me want to talk about SC in the first place. Most of the ideas for the new units seem pretty interesting. Also lurker is back yay! :D Love that they are giving terran mech some more love. Protoss changes seem a little underwhelming however but just like with HotS, a lot of this stuff will change

I had the same thoughts: Buffing old terran units that we love but didn't have enough competitive value with cool new abilities was exciting, and I also liked the new rocket-tank thing. And yes, the new Protoss units, changes were boring to me. I want them to come up with more new unique units. What did they introduce at all even besides the floaty ball thing that looked exactly like the cut Replicant?

There's a reason why Nintendo admitted that their strategy with the original Wii failed, despite their sales numbers.

Interesting. What exactly did they say?

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I guess no one wanted to talk about starcraft earlier I would go to starcraftboards (teamliquid) but all I would probably hear there is "EVERY RACE BUT MINE IS IMBALANCED!"

You're not wrong.

 

[Thor]

I tried to sugar-coat the **** out of my last few posts
Keep them as basic as possible without going into the depths what the difference is between PM/Melee and Brawl/S4 in my mini-convos with Thor and Saik
Just so it wouldn't bring in some kind of endless banter that usually doesn't go anywhere because of some ignorance being latched onto.

But then in comes Drinkingfood of course with the raw call-out to it.
Even calling it stupid and ignorant in the first sentence.
Hopefully I explained it well while working around the silliness of the discussion but like comon that's so direct. Just because it's ignorant doesn't mean it's stupid, they just don't know any better. Only when the convo goes into super defensive-mode about their (not so much them but anyone discussing) own bias and observable ignorance of the situation can it actually be called stupid.
It's just ignorance. That's a good thing.

#sugarcoatingfailstho

First I'll state that I kind of left this thread then came back because I was tagged and I was like "Alright what now?"

But I can't understand your ridiculously long run-on sentences (technically I could I guess, by reading and trying to type it in bullet points, but I pretty much NEVER resort to that because I hate doing it, and I gave the post you referenced a good 5 slow readings before I just said "Nope" and moved on).

I don't see how this calls me or anyone else out, except the balanced roster thing.

I'm not exactly sure what view I stated that makes you think I'm ignorant, so I'll let you spell out what you think I don't know (since I was quoted a bunch and tagged <_<). I'll say stuff after I guess.

"I think CCing is awesome"

There's a reason you can shield. And unlike in Melee/64/PM, shielding is not a bad option. Also CCing > Roy, which I find rather unfortunate. I think CCing is on balance not a good thing (it had redeeming qualities, but it causes a lot of problems too).

"I don't like vectoring being escape combos"

A) Combo-DI does same thing

B) If this works, you gave up stage position and/or are in primary position to get juggled - and while Smash 4 has the most balanced way to deal with juggling vs landing so far (Brawl was slightly in favor of landing player unless you had RCO and/or you were fighting MK, Melee and 64 had it favoring juggler), that's not where you want to be. And those are both bad spots that are likely to lead to more hits = more damage = more potential for combos if they mess up their distance influence [DI] at all.

I don't see your point.

Also people who claim about not being able to KO need to learn how stale-move negation works XD.

The gimping complaints just make me laugh.

 

[ZiggaWaTT]

I had the same thoughts: Buffing old terran units that we love but didn't have enough competitive value with cool new abilities was exciting, and I also liked the new rocket-tank thing. And yes, the new Protoss units, changes were boring to me. I want them to come up with more new unique units. What did they introduce at all even besides the floaty ball thing that looked exactly like the cut Replicant?

Well they nerfed/buffed the immortal by removing the passive shield that couldn't take more than 10 damage and replacing it with a activate shield that grants them immunity for a short time.
Warp prism get to pick up units from a distance so im expecting a lot more drops from them.
Oracle combined invision and revelation into one cast, and they gave it a stasis trap which is cool
Tempest can only target ground units but gained an ability to give a never ending DoT to another unit.

I am also liking the swarm host changes. they can now move while they spawn locus but the time is increased between each locus wave. Hopefully that will make the swarm not boring to use and not terrible to fight against

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Stop wasting time on talking about crap you are unable to change/mods, you scrubs. ADAPT IN GAME instead of whining here.
...Wait, lemme fix my face.

Two words:

Also, that video, holy fuuuuuuuuu

 

[Warsaint777]

Well they nerfed/buffed the immortal by removing the passive shield that couldn't take more than 10 damage and replacing it with a activate shield that grants them immunity for a short time.
Warp prism get to pick up units from a distance so im expecting a lot more drops from them.
Oracle combined invision and revelation into one cast, and they gave it a stasis trap which is cool
Tempest can only target ground units but gained an ability to give a never ending DoT to another unit.

I am also liking the swarm host changes. they can now move while they spawn locus but the time is increased between each locus wave. Hopefully that will make the swarm not boring to use and not terrible to fight against

Yeah all those changes are neat I think but my point is that they're just new **** for old units and they've essentially introduced no new units to the race that's focused on in this chapter of the game. If they don't come out with THREE brand new Protoss units from scratch I think it'll be a bit of an upset.
I admit though, the buff they gave to the Carrier is exciting-- the interceptors can go off on their own and still fight even after their ship has gown down! Oh and yeah I also was hoping from day one for flying locusts.

Stop wasting time on talking about crap you are unable to change/mods, you scrubs. ADAPT IN GAME instead of whining here.
...Wait, lemme fix my face.

Two words:

Also, that video, holy fuuuuuuuuu

MW what video was it- my work blocks vid sites. Also I'm not PC master race at all. SC is one of like maybe 3 PC game franchises in my whole life i've ever been kind of invested in. I honestly prefer consoles over PCs for gaming.

 

[Lizalfos]

I seriously am sorry for saying that Smash 4 could be better. Just like how Melee could be better. To me the best version of Smash 4 isn't even remotely similar to the best version of Melee BTW. I just really felt like there are all sorts of extra mechanics that only detract from Smash 4.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Bruh, hush. Just stop.
Let this topic DIE.

MW what video was it- my work blocks vid sites.

The Project M Movie - Part 1: The Birth of Project M

 

[Lizalfos]

*cute Optimus GIF*

What if I told you that Optimus is cuter than kittens, Mech?

 

[PlateProp]

Cause Drinking Food wants you to get gud scrub. Honestly, I always find myself agreeing despite how blunt he is.

I watched Alax's "Melee is a Beautiful Accident" video. Was neat. I cringed at the part where Fox, Falco, and Kirby talked tho.
I was thinking about how he said people see the characters as hitboxes and movesets instead of Nintendo characters.
I couldn't agree more actually. I feel like the original Nintendo characters are such a small part of the character personality in smash games.

Sometimes the source material fits the way they play, like Luigi's slippery weirdness.
Sometimes the smash personality is the definitive one. See: Captain Falcon
Sometimes the smash personality isn't even close to the source material, more so if we are talking about P:M. Lucas isn't a crybaby, he is freaking Neo. Pichu isn't a unevolved rat to be trained into something stronger, he is that guy who sandbags in friendlies, a danger to himself and others. I mean, Fox too. Canonical Fox needs to be a leader and avenge his father. Smash Fox is definitely a cold calculating mercenary, trumping opponents with his sheer discipline and skill. Isn't Snake supposed to be a top secret experimental black-ops agent? Naw man, he is flashy as hell, everything he uses explodes.

I honestly would rather have characters with deep personality imbued into them rather than just a story handed to them.

P:M Lucas is what Lucas acts like after he goes through character development and matures into his badass state at the end of Mother 3

Fox...Is a mercenary? Star Fox is a mercenary group, and each member is basically a one man army, in their Arwings and out. If anything Fox just seems more serious because we dont have him talking like usual.

Also MGS is like the flashiest spy game ever. For real, there's a guy who ****ing fights by spinning his revolvers on his fingers ffs

Point is, each character pretty much bleeds personality in their movesets. It's the people that play that color your perception of them.

 

[ZiggaWaTT]

Im the exact opposite @ Warsaint777 lol PC master race for life! With Nintendo being the only company ill buy a console from anymore

 

[Warsaint777]

I seriously am sorry for saying that Smash 4 could be better. Just like how Melee could be better. To me the best version of Smash 4 isn't even remotely similar to the best version of Melee BTW. I just really felt like there are all sorts of extra mechanics that only detract from Smash 4.

I really felt like the hundreds of extra special moves for solidified characters was a massive waste of time. They could've used those resources for unique characters to take up DPit, Luc and Dr.M's roster squares.

Smash Run is basically just Subspace without cutscenes. But that's what made Subspace awesome, so. : /

 

[GP&B]

the reason is that what the competitive community wants is not automatically what's best for the game

also keep in mind that brawl sold almost twice as well as melee did in the long run - the idea that the competitive community is what's gonna drive the dollar is a fantasy

That's not really the reasoning here. Melee was successful on both fronts. It lending itself well to competitive play did not detract from it as a casual game. I also hope you aren't implying that Brawl being more casual (disregarding the meaning of saying this) is what made it sold more. Riding on the success of Melee + being sold on a user base that was at least triple that of the Gamecube does a lot for sales.

 

[Hylian]

also keep in mind that brawl sold almost twice as well as melee did in the long run - the idea that the competitive community is what's gonna drive the dollar is a fantasy

Melee was since release till present the best selling game on the gamecube. The main reason brawl sold more than melee is because the Wii was so much more successful than the gamecube being one of the best selling consoles ever. For contrast, Brawl was the NINTH best selling title on the Wii. It's not really fair to compare the design success of the games based on sales considering the difference of system sales between them. No comment on all of the other arguments.

 

[1FD]

snip.

my bad on the bad posting I suck

This is the kind of 'endless discussion with no end' I hoped wouldn't come up, but I'll play just a litttttle bit.

Just gonna point out things you stated here and why they're really weird to me (and others I guess).
I won't understand them unless you explain, but even then I really don't think I'll understand why you think certain things when you're saying what seems to me to be very contradictory as far as I can tell.
So I'll just share my interpretation of what you just said. AKA what your post means as far as I can tell.

-You just directly stated that options in a game that give the game flexibility are bad for the game... eg: CCing caused more harm than good?
-But also implied the opposite of various other option-related things basically in contradiction to that idea... eg: Stale move negation being more good than harm?
-As well as said things that just straight up prove your own points seemingly inaccurate. Like how the smash4/brawl way in most areas discussed are 'exactly-worse' than the melee/pm way even by YOUR OWN descriptions of them... eg: Air dodges working in a way that negate advantage gained from out-playing the opponent, which implies that other kinds of mechanics would be more beneficial to have here when it comes to determination of skills and all other points you've brought up when it comes to competition legitimacy (your own def that you gave of what that means earlier) and with the ideas that the way they are in one game is better than the other/vice-versa. You're basically supporting the arguments against the examples you brought up, and it's really strange.

I'm not sure if you'll catch what I'm pointing out, but it's really confusing to me because of that, and seems to be the common confusion that happens in these kinds of discussions. To me (and most others it seems), you (or anyone posting those kinds of contradictory/not in-line/even inaccurate in a lot of ways, points) seem to not pick up on those inconsistencies in your own understanding of your own ideas.
I'm not sure I'll understand what's confusing you/me, and maybe you (general word) get something we don't, or we (general word) get something you don't, but what you've posted, and the way you've posted it, really don't add up to making any sense, and seems almost like you're nit-picking odds and ends and getting mixed up in your own mess of bias or perspective. Basically it's just ignorance, which is fine and we all have some, but that mess of opinion that's so observable in the points made while not wavering to think clearly or differently about it as if there might be something 'off' in the way you see it is where that whole Drinkingfood approach comes in (the part where it's actually completely reasonable for him to say 'that's just stupid' when it comes to your points)

Maybe that makes sense, but no biggy. To each their own, fun topic.
There's a difference between subjective and objective. We're dancing with that, more than anything 'tangible' when it comes to the game. Always remember that, and it's really hard to make the mistakes it 'seems' you/others have/do/might be doing, when it comes to these kinds of topics.
Just my 2cents but what do I know? :D


To add a bit
If you can understand how these 2 points you made on contradicting, then you'll get where we're coming from.
(Basically the comparing of counter-play options and whatever (confusing) lines they cross that make you think some are bad and some are good for the game. From 'as if shielding is a bad option in other smash games', to the confusing point about air-dodging 'as if it's good (or bad) that it can lead to more damage and combos or whatever if they counter-play improperly on defense' when it's more true of the other form of air-dodging by a technicality and more counter-play dynamically at that, same with shielding and ccing and etc... it's all just a mess) haha

There's a reason you can shield. And unlike in Melee/64/PM, shielding is not a bad option. Also CCing > Roy, which I find rather unfortunate. I think CCing is on balance not a good thing (it had redeeming qualities, but it causes a lot of problems too).

B) If this works, you gave up stage position and/or are in primary position to get juggled - and while Smash 4 has the most balanced way to deal with juggling vs landing so far (Brawl was slightly in favor of landing player unless you had RCO and/or you were fighting MK, Melee and 64 had it favoring juggler), that's not where you want to be. And those are both bad spots that are likely to lead to more hits = more damage = more potential for combos if they mess up their distance influence [DI] at all.

 

[F. Blue]

I look forward to Nintendo's marketing department abandoning us next year so we can get back to streaming the games we want.

 

[Warsaint777]

my bad on the bad posting I suck

This is the kind of 'endless discussion with no end' I hoped wouldn't come up, but I'll play just a litttttle bit.

Just gonna point out things you stated here and why they're really weird to me (and others I guess).
I won't understand them unless you explain, but even then I really don't think I'll understand why you think certain things when you're saying what seems to me to be very contradictory as far as I can tell.
So I'll just share my interpretation of what you just said. AKA what your post means as far as I can tell.

-You just directly stated that options in a game that give the game flexibility are bad for the game... eg: CCing caused more harm than good?
-But also implied the opposite of various other option-related things basically in contradiction to that idea... eg: Stale move negation being more good than harm?
-As well as said things that just straight up prove your own points seemingly inaccurate. Like how the smash4/brawl way in most areas discussed are 'exactly-worse' than the melee/pm way even by YOUR OWN descriptions of them... eg: Air dodges working in a way that negate advantage gained from out-playing the opponent, which implies that other kinds of mechanics would be more beneficial to have here when it comes to determination of skills and all other points you've brought up when it comes to competition legitimacy (your own def that you gave of what that means earlier) and with the ideas that the way they are in one game is better than the other/vice-versa. You're basically supporting the arguments against the examples you brought up, and it's really strange.

I'm not sure if you'll catch what I'm pointing out, but it's really confusing to me because of that, and seems to be the common confusion that happens in these kinds of discussions. To me (and most others it seems), you (or anyone posting those kinds of contradictory/not in-line/even inaccurate in a lot of ways, points) seem to not pick up on those inconsistencies in your own understanding of your own ideas.
I'm not sure I'll understand what's confusing you/me, and maybe you (general word) get something we don't, or we (general word) get something you don't, but what you've posted, and the way you've posted it, really don't add up to making any sense, and seems almost like you're nit-picking odds and ends and getting mixed up in your own mess of bias or perspective. Basically it's just ignorance, which is fine and we all have some, but that mess of opinion that's so observable in the points made while not wavering to think clearly or differently about it as if there might be something 'off' in the way you see it is where that whole Drinkingfood approach comes in (the part where it's actually completely reasonable for him to say 'that's just stupid' when it comes to your points)

Maybe that makes sense, but no biggy. To each their own, fun topic.
There's a difference between subjective and objective. We're dancing with that, more than anything 'tangible' when it comes to the game. Always remember that, and it's really hard to make the mistakes it 'seems' you/others have/do/might be doing, when it comes to these kinds of topics.
Just my 2cents but what do I know? :D

Dude. WHAT?

 

[1FD]

Dude. WHAT?

That's what I'm saying too. lol

 

[MechWarriorNY]

What if I told you that Optimus is cuter than kittens, Mech?

I would say that you would be correct.

Also, Pepeday vs Poongko, yooooooooo

[:sweatingman: INTENSIFIES]

 

[Warsaint777]

MW Pacific Rim had awesome effects and robot/monster designs but are you aware that it was a

****ING STUPID MOVIE?

 

[Yung Mei]

guys i bought a new waifu pillow and took a selfie with it, chekkit

Spoiler: me and my new waifu pillow

 

[Bazkip]

At this point I'm not even certain that @ 1FD is human.

 

[GP&B]

guys i bought a new waifu pillow and took a selfie with it, chekkit

Spoiler: me and my new waifu pillow

>waifu pillow
>not waifu

make me sick

 

[Warsaint777]

guys i bought a new waifu pillow and took a selfie with it, chekkit

Spoiler: me and my new waifu pillow

Oh is that from the like new swimming series?

Dude that show is getting mad popular.

 

[Yung Mei]

>waifu pillow
>not waifu

make me sick

sounds to me like youre just jealous

Oh is that from the like new swimming series?

Dude that show is getting mad popular.

idk **** about the show, i just bought it cuz it was like 10 bucks new

 

[MechWarriorNY]

MW Pacific Rim had awesome effects and robot/monster designs but are you aware that it was a

****ING STUPID MOVIE?

First off.

Second off.

Come at me, you obnoxious prick.

 

[Thor]

my bad on the bad posting I suck

This is the kind of 'endless discussion with no end' I hoped wouldn't come up, but I'll play just a litttttle bit.

Just gonna point out things you stated here and why they're really weird to me (and others I guess).
I won't understand them unless you explain, but even then I really don't think I'll understand why you think certain things when you're saying what seems to me to be very contradictory as far as I can tell.
So I'll just share my interpretation of what you just said. AKA what your post means as far as I can tell.

I don't mind these, and I'll do what I can to clear stuff up.

-You just directly stated that options in a game that give the game flexibility are bad for the game... eg: CCing caused more harm than good?
-But also implied the opposite of various other option-related things basically in contradiction to that idea... eg: Stale move negation being more good than harm?

CCing makes Roy's portrait on the CSS irrelevant

More seriously, I could go into the downsides and upsides of that mechanic, but I don't really feel like it... in a nutshell, some people praise the mechanic as being awesome, but it has some really gross side effects, and while you talk about flexibility, it really gives some characters (Roy) a lot less than they'd have were CCing gone [It does give high-tiers a lot of flexibility, I'll say that much]. It's not some horrible monster that promotes useless tech or anything, but t definitely has downsides. On balance... I dunno man, it could go either way (oops Ken called, he wants his line back).

I didn't say stale-moves was good??? I just said people should play around it...

Or else quote where I said that, because that doesn't sound like me... I thinks stale-moves has some upside, in some ways, but I haven't ever given it much thought... off the top of my head, Melee staling seems the best implemented, if that's the path taken, or even just Brawl- staling (which removes staling, but keeps the "freshness" bonus from Brawl). Stale-moves can force destaling of moves, which I find interesting, but I never thought about how it affects various aspects of the game.

-As well as said things that just straight up prove your own points seemingly inaccurate. Like how the smash4/brawl way in most areas discussed are 'exactly-worse' than the melee/pm way even by YOUR OWN descriptions of them... eg: Air dodges working in a way that negate advantage gained from out-playing the opponent, which implies that other kinds of mechanics would be more beneficial to have here when it comes to determination of skills and all other points you've brought up when it comes to competition legitimacy (your own def that you gave of what that means earlier) and with the ideas that the way they are in one game is better than the other/vice-versa. You're basically supporting the arguments against the examples you brought up, and it's really strange.

Exactly worse? I don't think that's possible... everything that could be ascribed better/worse is necessarily subjective by how we compare things. I can go get a dictionary and iron it out, but people don't like me citing Webster for whatever reason <_<

Slightly related, Tagxy wrote a beautiful post in response to some claims Praxis made in which he discussed a claim Praxis made that was [in essence] this: "Brawl increased defensive options, that's bad." Tagxy discussed why stating "Offensive options should be greater than defensive options" is a bad parameter for judging a game, and then went on and discussed a bunch of other stuff in-depth. [I think this has relevance but I'm not sure how to articulate it so I'll just leave it here.]

I think repeatedly outplaying the opponent shows who is better - air dodges partially negate the advantage from one hit landing, but if you are truly better than them, and can outplay them, surely you can read the air dodge or lack thereof and follow up - some of the best Brawl players (Nairo, ESAM, Mr. R, etc.) do this very frequently [and I can link you various vids and explain various moments if desired]. I think this much is defensible at least.

Also, by that logic 64 is then more conducive to competition (I think what you're saying about Melee vs Brawl) because DI negates the advantage of outplaying the opponent too... or are you getting at something else when I discuss airdodging to attempt to avoid followups, etc.?

... as far as competition goes...

I don't recall providing a definition of competition earlier - perhaps I should do so to explain what I mean? I don't know if others are following this but I remember simply wonder what yours was... I think a competition is something where we can test who the better competitor is based on a variety of factors, but those factors can vary from game to game - if converting combos is the name of the game, then Melee is probably more conducive than Brawl (or 64 or UMvC 3 probably - full conversions), but if the competition aims to show who can penetrate a plethora of defensive options while using their own to minimize damage, and want to really test who can best convert attacks into strings, then Brawl far outclasses Melee, because the ability to read airdodges and act accordingly is vital in Brawl, but relevant only to juggling a few select characters (mainly Peach) in Melee [and spotdodges are kind of silly]. I think both are fantastic and fun to do and great for competition. I really enjoy watching the psychological aspects of both games (which is why I find both Brawl and Melee matches highly entertaining - Nario vs CT Zero or Nairo vs ESAM or DEHF vs Mr. R are just as cool and interesting to me as Mango vs PPMD, for instance). Most people seem to appreciate combo conversions far more than string conversions, since combo conversions in Melee that fail still often set up for tech chases, while in Brawl failing to properly press positional advantage usually resets things to neutral, or even results in a turnabout of the situation.

I think, then, the reason most people say Melee is better for competition than Brawl is because people enjoy watching long combos, fast-moving neutrals (though Brawl's is still very intense, especially when you realize how hard it is for Nairo to get back to neutral after being attacked by Zero - see their SKTAR 3 set for a prime example - single errors can prove costly), and find the patience required for Brawl boring. Most importantly, the general consensus seems to be [from what I know] that playing a fighting game should test ability to make long combos, which Melee is more suited to than Brawl, given the lack of airdodging to cancel hitstun. However, the mental fortitude required is just as great, if not more (and since set length is longer, one must strive not to "break" ever harder/for longer - most Melee players know a set will be 20 minutes tops, 40 if it's grand finals, and good - Brawl sets can be 20 minutes in best of 3s, and starting to fall on habits, etc. will make it terribly hard to come back, since one usually needs at least a few good reads and strings, instead of one combo, to bring it back - though bringing back a Melee game is no easy feat, do not misunderstand me), and in addition to the mental fortitude required, the ability to make reads to extend strings (as I stated before) is essential to Brawl but [nearly] non-existent in Melee. In this way I think both are highly competitive games, but they don't test exactly the same things - this seems overlooked to me, and as a result the games are compared in ways that are not entirely accurate, because the competitions do not measure exactly the same things [though they share many in common - execution, spacing, timing of punishes, baiting, recovery and gimping, etc.].

Does that make any sense?

I'm not sure if you'll catch what I'm pointing out, but it's really confusing to me because of that, and seems to be the common confusion that happens in these kinds of discussions. To me (and most others it seems), you (or anyone posting those kinds of contradictory/not in-line/even inaccurate in a lot of ways, points) seem to not pick up on those inconsistencies in your own understanding of your own ideas.
I'm not sure I'll understand what's confusing you/me, and maybe you (general word) get something we don't, or we (general word) get something you don't, but what you've posted, and the way you've posted it, really don't add up to making any sense, and seems almost like you're nit-picking odds and ends and getting mixed up in your own mess of bias or perspective. Basically it's just ignorance, which is fine and we all have some, but that mess of opinion that's so observable in the points made while not wavering to think clearly or differently about it as if there might be something 'off' in the way you see it is where that whole Drinkingfood approach comes in (the part where it's actually completely reasonable for him to say 'that's just stupid' when it comes to your points)
Maybe that makes sense, but no biggy. To each their own, fun topic.
There's a difference between subjective and objective. We're dancing with that, more than anything 'tangible' when it comes to the game. Always remember that, and it's really hard to make the mistakes it 'seems' you/others have/do/might be doing, when it comes to these kinds of topics.
Just my 2cents but what do I know? :D

While you pointed two out (that I tried to respond to and explain), highlighting any other inconsistencies for me clearly would be appreciated, so we can better understand what's being said (since I do not detect anything, though I often try to make myself consistent before posting).

I still don't see/understand where Drinkingfood said much of anything in response to anything I said.

 

[GP&B]

sounds to me like youre just jealous

meiling pls, im at least a few times cuter than the skank on that pillow

Side note:

Jesus

 

[MechWarriorNY]

@ Thor

Brevity, my more-northern-originating-than-myself brethren.
Use it.

 

[Warsaint777]

First off.

Second off.

Come at me, you obnoxious prick.

That gif looks sooo cool... lol really

Look dude our hearts are of the same flesh brother, trust me: Pacific Rim was an EMOTIONAL UPSET FOR ME. It still matters to me to this day that the premise and artistic value of it was so amazing and that the acting, dialogue and story was so terrible.

I want to express this out of love. I was really wanting PR to be something that was narratively compelling and emotionally provocative, and it wound up just being hollow eye-candy, not nearly as awful but in the same category as the Transformers films.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

All of that is subjective.
I am NOT arguing with you about the "quality" of any movie script. [bias INTENSIFIES]

Nope.

Stop being a fuccboi lol.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

meiling pls, im at least a few times cuter than the skank on that pillow

Side note:

Jesus

What just happened exactly?

On another note, did anyone happen to see the episode premiere of Sonic Boom? Am I the only one who was disappointed with what they got? After so many revamped cartoons turning out to be fantastic, Thundercats, TMNT on Nick, MLP FIM....I was really expecting this show to have better writing than I got. I understand that the show is directed towards children, but it felt like they were talking down to the audience with it.

 

[Warsaint777]

All of that is subjective.
I am NOT arguing with you about the "quality" of any movie script. [bias INTENSIFIES]

Nope.

Stop being a fuccboi lol.

Two touche's for you:

1. Your admitted self-awareness of your incorrigibility.

2. Your constant references to obscure things that are awesome.

*edit: whats a fuccboi?

 

[Lizalfos]

That gif looks sooo cool... lol really

Look dude our hearts are of the same flesh brother, trust me: Pacific Rim was an EMOTIONAL UPSET FOR ME. It still matters to me to this day that the premise and artistic value of it was so amazing and that the acting, dialogue and story was so terrible.

I want to express this out of love. I was really wanting PR to be something that was narratively compelling and emotionally provocative, and it wound up just being hollow eye-candy, not nearly as awful but in the same category as the Transformers films.

I think that it was intentional, the creators wanted it this way. stop wavecheating

 

[| Kailex |]

Spoiler: still enjoying blood+

riku got ***** and killed, cool; and saya became such a *****