Project M Social Thread Gold

[Empyrean]

You say that like it is a good thing.

Nah, it's pretty sad
I hadn't realized how terrible CC is until Smash 4.
Plz remove that **** in 3.5

 

[1FD]

Nah, needz moar muzak
Moar charz
Moar custom muvz
Moar modez

We got PM for the Bo5 and Grand Final kinda Glory
We got S4 for the Discovery and Fun kinda Glory

I don wanna see all smash games be in the same niche

Get like 100 smash games for 100 different things plx

 

[RelaxAlax]

I watched Alax's "Melee is a Beautiful Accident" video. Was neat. I cringed at the part where Fox, Falco, and Kirby talked tho.

Need to have fun with the stuff I do, even if it isn't up everyones alley. And hey, I thought it'd be fun to add a bit more fun and kookiness to the MOST SERIOUS TOPIC OF SMASH BROTHERS.

On a more recent note --

Wii U is still 2 weeks away, we need to be quiet about meta still lol.

I think it presents alot of potential though that many are quick to disregard. To each their own, but I hate seeing people dismiss a game so quickly. Especially big figures in the Smash scene. Imagine if Mango started playing Smash 4 (Stay with me), and how many would change their thoughts on the game. I just hate the pessimism associated with anything "not" Melee.

It may have defined a culture, but that doesn't mean it needs to cripple anything it doesn't see fit. It's like how music artists and authors reacted in the wake of the internet - "new is scary, new is bad for me, new must die"

 

[Empyrean]

Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if mango actually enjoyed Smash 4
he said a while back that his goal was to not let m2k and armada become the best, I hope he was serious lol

 

[1FD]

Exactly
Smash4 is awesome
Just shadup and play it and have fun
If you don wanna then play PM and have fun
If you don wanna then play Melee and have fun
If you don wanna then play 64/brawl and have fun
If you don wanna then listen to happy touhou
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEJFk7L7myI&index=119&list=PLcWREYk2sjtmiHOkvDyLrPYLc8l6ZQ44V

 

[Lizalfos]

I realize that I'm harder on S4 than I should be, but it is tough when you are following the neverending fan-service that is PM.
The vectoring thing really hurts me too. It just actively hurts comboing, and all we have to do to fix it is to just never program it in the first place.
I just think that Smash 4 could have brought the series back to a 64 level, but things like an airdodge that only negates all of your hard work in neutral hold it back.

So how I feel about Smash 4: Why aren't we playing 64? Maybe we can mod goku into the cartridge!

 

[Bleck]

I liked Smash 4 before it was cool

The vectoring thing really hurts me too.

vectoring is just a less autistic DI

nobody has been able to explain to me how it's different in any meaningful way and as such I'm filing it under "bull**** that only matters to stupid people"

 

[Comeback Kid]

Be quiet about meta for a game that is promised to play identically to the 3DS?

Sure the C-stick will make certain things easier but the meta will only evolve from where it is not start fresh.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I liked Smash 4 before it was cool

Thanks Pac-man

 

[Bleck]

you're welcome, buddy

 

[1FD]

Lizalfos doesn't seem like you smash4'd much
Airdodge isn't barwl calibur in dat gaem
It's gonna really suck to airdodge at the wrong time in that game cause of the punishes and how not-really-free it is, and when peeps start to stop overcommitting then we gon see the offensive game shape up a bit more with proceedures a little more.
But still it's not as flexible or option filling as momentum changing airdodges and stuff... but it aint the same game.
You craycray for comparing it to 64 in terms of legitness
64 wack
#imahaterbutnotreallyilove64too

 

[Lizalfos]

I liked Smash 4 before it was cool



vectoring is just a less autistic DI

Thats what I'm saying. DI is stupid, thats why we should play 64. It didn't have DI.

But if you really want to have this conversation, I'll tell you why vectoring actively ruins your fun.

 

[RelaxAlax]

What I mean is people, like myself (And many i've talked to) haven't taken the game seriously and wanted to pick up the Wii U version. I didn't mean "be quiet" so harshly so I apologize, I just mean it's still far too early to tell with the Wii U version still not launched. Also, am I the only one who suspects some differences a la Melee Pal vs. NTSC?

I love PM rn alot it's my main game. With Ganon as my main, it's probably not hard to transfer skills to Smash 4.

 

[Bleck]

But if you really want to have this conversation, I'll tell you why vectoring actively ruins your fun.

I have been waiting for an explanation as to why vectoring matters at all, yes

also the idea that we should denounce smash 4 after two months but we should still pretend like melee is some fresh new **** literally a decade later is like lol would you look at these nerdlords

 

[DrinkingFood]

You guys are weird, Smash4 made me realize how CCing is a good mechanic. You can have fast long reaching moves that combo that aren't game making/breaking at low percents in neutral because of CCing. Holy **** just think if you couldn't CC Sheik's dash attack.

Also vectoring enables you to travel farther with the same amount of hitstun AND still change the overall angle of your launch, by vectoring diagonally in whatever direction you are headed or opposite of that. If you don't like combos other than low percent stuff it's fine. But if you like fun it's not

 

[Lizalfos]

What I mean is people, like myself (And many i've talked to) haven't taken the game seriously and wanted to pick up the Wii U version. I didn't mean "be quiet" so harshly so I apologize, I just mean it's still far too early to tell with the Wii U version still not launched. Also, am I the only one who suspects some differences a la Melee Pal vs. NTSC?

I love PM rn alot it's my main game. With Ganon as my main, it's probably not hard to transfer skills to Smash 4.

Maybe we get Wii U, then a patch for 3DS to bring us up to date. We can dream.

Lizalfos doesn't seem like you smash4'd much
Airdodge isn't barwl calibur in dat gaem
It's gonna really suck to airdodge at the wrong time in that game cause of the punishes and how not-really-free it is, and when peeps start to stop overcommitting then we gon see the offensive game shape up a bit more with proceedures a little more.
But still it's not as flexible or option filling as momentum changing airdodges and stuff... but it aint the same game.

All I know is that when I win neutral and get a hit in, half of my options are invalidated by the stupid airdodge.

I have been waiting for an explanation as to why vectoring matters at all, yes

also the idea that we should denounce smash 4 after two months but we should still pretend like melee is some fresh new **** literally a decade later is like lol would you look at these nerdlords

All I know is that when I win the neutral, certain options are invalidated when my opponent vectors.

 

[Bleck]

You can have fast long reaching moves that combo that aren't game making/breaking at low percents in neutral because of CCing.

ccing really helps me as bowser, yep

such balance, good design

 

[Lizalfos]

CC is that double edged sword, where it can help you in some matchups, but then Fox/Falco have it too so wow **** CC shine what?

 

[DrinkingFood]

I don't understand your response, bleck. Who said anything about bowser, or about balance?

CC is that double edged sword, where it can help you in some matchups, but then Fox/Falco have it too so wow **** CC shine what?

Wow what a ****ing suuuurrprise ehh falco and fox ruin yet another thing

 

[Bleck]

All I know is that when I win the neutral, certain options are invalidated when my opponent vectors.

this doesn't really explain anything to me

I don't understand your response. Who said anything about bowser, or about balance?

try thinking about it, I heard that helps

 

[Lizalfos]

this doesn't really explain anything to me



try thinking about it, I heard that helps

Combo DI in Brawl and Melee creates counterplay, because I can still read your DI, possibly create DI mixups. Vectoring is entirely a win for the person getting comboed, and creates little to no counterplay.

 

[DrinkingFood]

try thinking about it, I heard that helps

Rofl please stop responding like an ultra edgy 15 year old. Your response was vague and didn't address anything I said.

 

[Lizalfos]

Rofl please stop responding like an ultra edgy 15 year old. Your response was vague and didn't address anything I said.

I don't think he is disagreeing actually, strange.

 

[Bleck]

Vectoring is entirely a win for the person getting comboed

why

Your response was vague and didn't address anything I said.

you said CCing is a good mechanic because of the implication that without it [x] would be overpowered or something but I feel as though the character with [x] is still better than 80% of the characters in PM (and 90% of the characters in Melee) so like why does it even matter, you know?

I don't think a lack of CCing really matters in Smash 4 'cause in Melee it only matters in the context of a metagame that only really involves six characters at best and in PM, I mean, I'm no expert but CCing doesn't seem to help me deal with much of anything as Bowser

 

[Lizalfos]

why

lol idunno

My whole point is "why". Why add something that provides no depth. Thats my argument, so you can actually attack my point now.

you said CCing is a good mechanic because of the implication that without it [x] would be overpowered or something but I feel as though the character with [x] is still better than 80% of the characters in PM (and 90% of the characters in Melee) so like why does it even matter

He was talking about in the Smash 4 environment

 

[Bleck]

My whole point is "why". Why add something that provides no depth.

how does vectoring add no depth

 

[Lizalfos]

how does vectoring add no depth

Let me measure out with my hands the amount of nothing.
I just explained, the comb-er can't react or predict in such a way that he still can benefit, it only removes combos from the game.

And what Drinking Food is saying is that CCing is in smash 4, and that it helps against S4 Shiek.

 

[Bleck]

like your problem (and everyone else's who has a problem with vectoring) is that they don't seem to be capable of explaining why it's bad

I'm legit asking for an explanation here but the response I'm getting as to why it's bad is "because"

 

[DrinkingFood]

why



you said CCing is a good mechanic because of the implication that without it [x] would be overpowered or something but I feel as though the character with [x] is still better than 80% of the characters in PM (and 90% of the characters in Melee) so like why does it even matter

? I still don't see how that addresses my post. I said nothing about balance. All my post suggested was that mechanic [y] allows more variety such as [x] to exist because it is counterplay to [x] therefore allowing [x] to exist without breaking the game. I am and was always talking game design. Sheik being a great character and other characters being bad is a result of their individual design.
Also yes CCing helps bowser for sure since CC-up-b is a thing with invinc on frame 7 (including CC) and hitting frame 13 I think. So even then it is helping him. But no it's not such an amazing mechanic that it evens all matchups for him by itself though.
Why would you respond in sarcastica agreement about the design of CCing using an argument about bowser being bad even though bowser being bad has nothing to do with CCing?
Were you being sarcastic just to male an offhand comment about something with no overall aim to your post? Because then my edgy 15 year old remark couldn't be more right

 

[Lizalfos]

like your problem (and everyone else's who has a problem with vectoring) is that they don't seem to be capable of explaining why it's bad

I'm legit asking for an explanation here but the response I'm getting as to why it's bad is "because"

I'm gonna just reply here too. If you vector to out reach a combo, I can't do anything about it as the comboer. Its a get out of jail free card. It makes games last longer, it reduces reward for the person who lands a hit, and it actively makes less things happen.

"PRESS UP TO NOT GET HIT BY THAT U-AIR, THUS NOT DYING" DOESN'T CREATE COUNTERPLAY

Have you ever tried to win chess when both players can only use their king? It isn't a fun combo oriented game, thats for sure.

 

[DrinkingFood]

And what Drinking Food is saying is that CCing is in smash 4, and that it helps against S4 Shiek.

What no CCing isn't in smash four. Not CCing as in ASDI down to cancel hitstun anyway lol, which is what people usually mean when they say CC. I was talking about sheik in PM+Melee

 

[Bleck]

? I still don't see

yo I got about this far in this post and decided I was moving on I'm sorry

I'm gonna just reply here too. If you vector to out reach a combo, I can't do anything about it as the comboer. Its a get out of jail free card. It makes games last longer, it reduces reward for the person who lands a hit, and it actively makes less things happen.

PRESS UP TO NOT GET HIT BY THAT U-AIR, THUS NOT DYING

like I'm pretty sure combo DI is a thing in previous games, how is this different

 

[DrinkingFood]

yo I got about this far in this post and decided to just ignore you

my edgy 15 year old remark couldn't be more right

 

[Lizalfos]

What no CCing isn't in smash four. Not CCing as in ASDI down to cancel hitstun anyway lol, which is what people usually mean when they say CC. I was talking about sheik in PM+Melee

Now I'm REALLY confused. Somebody last page said that Melee CC was in, so I believed him. The *******.

like I'm pretty sure combo DI is a thing in previous games, how is this different

I told you, combo DI creates DI mixups and I get to read your combo DI in most situations.


Am I edgy or just soft?

 

[Bleck]

I told you, combo DI creates DI mixups and I get to read your combo DI in most situations.

is it not possible to read vectoring

 

[KayB]

Just in case you missed it, this is the kind of amazing play you missed in Canada Cup's Top 16

 

[Empyrean]

I said I think it's in
Results for vectoring show that whenever someone holds down on the ground instead of the air, they survive a kill move much longer at the same percent. Not sure how reliable these tests are, but some form of crouch cancelling might be in play here

 

[shairn]

There is a difference between vectoring and DI in that DI doesn't directly reduce or increase the distance between you and your opponent, though factors like gravity and proximity of platforms/floor come into play obviously. That's not the case with vectoring, which can allow you to put significant distance between you and your opponent, and by the time your opponent has caught up to you you've been out of hitstun for a long time.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

like your problem (and everyone else's who has a problem with vectoring) is that they don't seem to be capable of explaining why it's bad

I'm legit asking for an explanation here but the response I'm getting as to why it's bad is "because"

What vectoring does is allow you to add or subtract to the knockback that a move gives you. So at low percents, if you hold in the direction that the move launches you, you are actually increasing the amount of knockback you take from the attack- not enough to get you killed, of course, but enough to invalidate a lot of otherwise viable follow ups to that initial hit. Suddenly, you are back in a neutral situation because you broke their string.

At higher percents, you can then hold against the direction the move launches you in. In that case, it subtracts from the knockback you take and allow you to live much longer than you would be able to in the same circumstance in Brawl or PM, for example. In this situation, you are getting an extra shot at making it back on to stage and potentially reap the benefits of the rage effect.

This system is actually more intuitive for newer players than DI is, but it harms the game at a higher level because it reduces the amount of player interaction and shifts the balance towards defensive play. With DI, you can't affect your knockback, simply the direction the move puts you in. A skilled player would be able to read your DI and follow up appropriately, something that's not really possible with vectoring even if you know it's going to happen.

If that doesn't really help you understand, I'm not sure what else people can say.

 

[Lizalfos]

Glad you guys showed up. PMS friendship was the true strength all along.
Edit: And then the Mech likes come in for the clutch.