Project M Social Thread Gold

[Smooth Criminal]

not to accuse you of this in particular, but I'm getting pretty sick of hearing others say that "smash 4 sucks 'cause look these characters are better than all the others, and that's why melee is better"

it's like, have you played melee

Then you have people that wanna ban Little Mac because he's OP like Brawl Metaknight.

It's like, have you played Brawl?

Smooth Criminal

 

[GHNeko]

You know how when there's a steam sale people buy as many games as they can
Well when my private tracker of choice is having freeleech I download everything that's even remotely interesting

「だろう」というのは「です」の「でしょう」みたいに「だ」の意志形なんだ。

Darou is the volitional form of da, the same as Deshou is to desu.

よくべんきょう

 

[MechWarriorNY]

People are full of it.
Not new.

 

[Gamegenie222]

LOL people will pull out any excuse to say what game is bad. Also the Smash 4 flavor of the week character is Diddy Kong with top players and that is all.

 

[GP&B]

Smash 4's alright. It simultaneously removes garbage that Brawl had while introducing changes to characters/mechanics that make absolutely no sense. Nothing about the game feels very consistent. Gonna join the "Will play it casually" crowd on this one.

 

[GHNeko]

Dunno. I think Kerfluffle is solid.

Not great, but fun and solid.

But I only play Megaman soo the way I play the game is inherently different lmfao.

 

[Phan7om]

There are a lot of questionable decisions made in smash 4. Ill still play it, but its like... I really think Sakurai is an undercover spy on smashboards that knows a lot of specific techs or something. Most people know the more famous techs that didnt make it into the game (dashdancing, land canceling, etc.) there are certain small techs that didnt make it into the game, a lot of them from brawl, that literally make me wonder how much stuff he/they know(s).

I could understand why he would remove them if i really think about it, but what i dont understand is why some are left in. For example, why can we still DACUS with some characters but Pika's QAC was removed... you know what i mean? Why cant Peach floatdash like she could in Brawl, but Kirby can still quickrock? Why did they remove MK's side-b edgecancel, but certain characters can still edgecancel their specials like Peach, Ganon, or Zelda for example. Im sure a lot of u have no idea what im getting at, but it really goes along with his inconsistency. Who is deciding what stays and what goes? Are the changes just mere luck, and for some reason doing this certain design change completely removed a competitive AT? It makes you think what they know, and do they know what we, as a competitive community, are thinking and saying and just trying to spite us. Are they trying to make a point?

And on top of that there are certain things removed from the e3 build that make no sense, such as Kirby's up-throw. I can understand them saying "oh it killed at 70% (or whatever crazy % it killed zero at), that might be too good lets tone it down some" but then on the 3ds they tone it down all the way so that it's worse than it was in Brawl (basically due to the blastzones) not killing until early 200s with proper vectoring. I could understand maybe zero vectored up during that match, but I tried vectoring up on BFs top platform and it didnt kill until like 140% on ZSS. Maybe the ceiling blastzone changed but why that much? I highly doubt it, but are the 3ds and WiiU versions going to be that much different. I can agree, at least playing on the 3ds, that it feels very rushed.

Idk, I just want to know their reasoning for keeping and removing certain things.

 

[GHNeko]

This is just pure conjecture and musing on my part.

It might be because of how they build the game.

Like Wavedashing? It's a result of how the engine works, being exploited in a fashion not predicted by devs.

You can tell one of the big things the Smash series has done since probably 64 is input forgiveness, right?

For example. Like being able to cancel jumps into Usmash. You have until you leave JumpSquat to input the A input to make it a smash right?

Hyphen Smashing was introduced in Brawl. Where DACUS was also introduced.

Hyphen Smashing is simply Usmashing out of a Run iirc. We tend to do it with the C-Stick though, but not everyone does. There are people who still the analog stick for Smash attacks. So poor/sloppy input when trying to Usmash out of run with the analog would result in a dash attack, but then when you look at DACUS, because of input forgiveness, the game lets you cancel dash attack into upsmash, but an oversight in the way the game works causes the character to retain momentum from the dash attack.

You see where I'm coming from? DACUS is a result of input forgiveness allowing someone to cancel a dash attack into usmash because Sakurai's vision is a Smash bros with low execution barriers. It's like shortcuts resulting in option selects in SF4 to some degree.

 

[standardtoaster]

hyphen smash is literally just dash -> cstick up to usmash lol

 

[Phan7om]

This is just pure conjecture and musing on my part.

It might be because of how they build the game.

Like Wavedashing? It's a result of how the engine works, being exploited in a fashion not predicted by devs.

You can tell one of the big things the Smash series has done since probably 64 is input forgiveness, right?

For example. Like being able to cancel jumps into Usmash. You have until you leave JumpSquat to input the A input to make it a smash right?

Hyphen Smashing was introduced in Brawl. Where DACUS was also introduced.

Hyphen Smashing is simply Usmashing out of a Run iirc. We tend to do it with the C-Stick though, but not everyone does. There are people who still the analog stick for Smash attacks. So poor/sloppy input when trying to Usmash out of run with the analog would result in a dash attack, but then when you look at DACUS, because of input forgiveness, the game lets you cancel dash attack into upsmash, but an oversight in the way the game works causes the character to retain momentum from the dash attack.

You see where I'm coming from? DACUS is a result of input forgiveness allowing someone to cancel a dash attack into usmash because Sakurai's vision is a Smash bros with low execution barriers. It's like shortcuts resulting in option selects in SF4 to some degree.

Yeah I understand that, and tbh its probably the case, but my question is why?

Say for instance, Melee vs Brawl's engine. I could wrap my head around getting rid of wavedashing (noobs wanting to avoid moves offstage by airdodging only to be followed by death, how airdodging stops momentum, or the idea of wavedashing itself). But what was the reason for removing the ability to dash in the opposite direction out of dash, aka dashdancing? Or what was the reason for removing the momentum carry from a running jump? Whats the reason for removing edgecancelling? You could say that Sakurai knew about how it was used competitively and wants everyone to feel equal and someone knowing an advanced option due to the games engine is unfair... according to Sakurai, so he would remove anything within that category, on top of the character specific ATs. Thus creating Brawl.

And then when making smash 4, im sure Sakurai thought the same thing. Im sure he knows about DACUS, and since he basically confirmed he still thinks this way wouldn't he try his best to remove it? Why is it still in? You could say, oh well he just didnt care or something... but then a lot of the brawl techs (mostly character specific) are gone as well, as if he knew about it and tried his best to get rid of it, just like how a lot of the techs in Melee are gone. And if he knew about those techs, which most people dont know, he would prob know about DACUS which is prob. the most popular Brawl tech. And then after he tries to remove them, people find ways to do new ATs that the engine will give them the competitive advantage. So idk why he doesnt know removing ATs wont get you anywhere since people are just gonna find more. And since he knows about these things, how does he know? He must know about smashboards after all this time. Is he reading these forums, looking at what people find and then removing it? Then again, why is DACUS and some other Brawl ATs still in? These questions are rhetorical so i dont expect anyone to answer them.

Im not mad about it, its just very inconsistent and questionable.

 

[Empyrean]

Dacus is harder and tighter than most melee tech, lmaoo.

 

[Phan7om]

Dacus is harder and tighter than most melee tech, lmaoo.

Difficulty depends on the character, but i woundn't say its harder. Maybe on the 3ds.

 

[Empyrean]

Difficulty depends on the character, but i woundn't say its harder. Maybe on the 3ds.

Considering dashdancing and wavedashing, 2 of the most brought up Melee techs, yes. The execution windows on some dacus' are really small whereas dashdancing is relatively more lenient.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Especially Brawl Shiek's DACUS and BDACUS with Falco those were hard.

 

[GHNeko]

hyphen smash is literally just dash -> cstick up to usmash lol

Right.
And I cannot understand why it needed a name.

Yeah I understand that, and tbh its probably the case, but my question is why?
Say for instance, Melee vs Brawl's engine. I could wrap my head around getting rid of wavedashing (noobs wanting to avoid moves offstage by airdodging only to be followed by death, how airdodging stops momentum, or the idea of wavedashing itself). But what was the reason for removing the ability to dash in the opposite direction out of dash, aka dashdancing? Or what was the reason for removing the momentum carry from a running jump? Whats the reason for removing edgecancelling? You could say that Sakurai knew about how it was used competitively and wants everyone to feel equal and someone knowing an advanced option due to the games engine is unfair... according to Sakurai, so he would remove anything within that category, on top of the character specific ATs. Thus creating Brawl.
And then when making smash 4, im sure Sakurai thought the same thing. Im sure he knows about DACUS, and since he basically confirmed he still thinks this way wouldn't he try his best to remove it? Why is it still in? You could say, oh well he just didnt care or something... but then a lot of the brawl techs (mostly character specific) are gone as well, as if he knew about it and tried his best to get rid of it, just like how a lot of the techs in Melee are gone. And if he knew about those techs, which most people dont know, he would prob know about DACUS which is prob. the most popular Brawl tech. And then after he tries to remove them, people find ways to do new ATs that the engine will give them the competitive advantage. So idk why he doesnt know removing ATs wont get you anywhere since people are just gonna find more. And since he knows about these things, how does he know? He must know about smashboards after all this time. Is he reading these forums, looking at what people find and then removing it? Then again, why is DACUS and some other Brawl ATs still in?
Im not mad about it, its just very inconsistent and questionable.

What Brawl ATs are gone?

DACUS, Retreating Pivot Grabs, Stationary Pivot Grabs, RARing, B-Reversals are all still in.

And I think a different form of grounded Glide Tossing is still in.

Dash Dancing is also back in. And This game has melee pivots too iirc but it's easier to do.

And I think JC Grabs are back spiritually in the form of Roll Canceled Grabs.

If anything, there are more button based execution ATs in Kerfluffle than Brawl.

OH! I just remembered. Megaman can edge cancel with certain specials... I think Metal Blade and Crash Bomber? Though I can't really say that counts and is more of a footnote than anything else.


When it comes done to it, Sakurai seems to want the executional barrier low, and most of these ATs that are showing up in Kerfluffle probably because input forgiveness and the game's engine.

Makes me wonder if they're allowed oversights like Wavedashing was.

 

[trash?]

brawl DACUSes were hell, because in case all y'all forgot there's input lag that can go anywhere from... I want to say 0-3 frames? PM devs were the one who found that out they know about it

so there's a chance that you just can't DACUS at all on the stricter ones like shiek's

 

[GHNeko]

Brawl had input lag, but it also had a 10 frame universal buffer window. ｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗ

Which is why no one gave a **** about it until PM came around because we could actually feel it at that point.

 

[Empyrean]

@ GHNeko why do you keep calling the game..kerfluffle??

Plus, it's supposed to be kerfuffle, without the l, but pls it's really confusing

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Does it matter?
Tech exists, exploit it instead of waxing lyrically about it.
/bias

 

[Phan7om]

Right.
And I cannot understand why it needed a name.


What Brawl ATs are gone?

DACUS, Retreating Pivot Grabs, Stationary Pivot Grabs, RARing, B-Reversals are all still in.

And I think a different form of grounded Glide Tossing is still in.

Dash Dancing is also back in. And This game has melee pivots too iirc but it's easier to do.

And I think JC Grabs are back spiritually in the form of Roll Canceled Grabs.

If anything, there are more button based execution ATs in Kerfluffle than Brawl.

The brawl ATs that were gone are mostly the character specific ones, yet some are still in. For example (not gonna name all of them, just the ones to come to mind)
So far Ive heard/tested that Yoshi's Dragonic Reverse, Peach's Floatdash, Peach's freepull and bonewalk, Pika's QAC, Pit's Arrow Loop (obvious), Wario's Bike Loop, Kirby's Hammer Cancel, Ganon's Super Jump, MK's side-b edgecancel, Olimar's Pluck Land Cancel, Fox/Falco laser land cancel, and Samus' Missle land cancel, are gone. Not to mention all the ones I'm forgetting, and didn't test/hear about staying or leaving.

Whether people think these are useful or not isnt the point, its the idea that these techs are not there. But it could be that the 3ds and WiiU are different but that is very unlikely. Yet there are a lot of techs that are still in. My whole point was, why were some things kept while a lot werent. Who is deciding these things. Im sure its got something to do with the engine and how the move works, im just saying how convenient that they'd change those, but then again some stayed.

The engine specific ATs that you listed that are still there are fine, but one could ask; why are they in? Thats really the whole basis of my confusion. Im also really bad at explaining things so I wouldnt be surprised if people dont understand.

ediT: and like Mech implied, im not mad or salty or whining or anything like that. I'll find all the tech and use it probably find more use for it than most people. Im literally just curious/confused.

 

[Strong Badam]

Difficulty depends on the character, but i woundn't say its harder. Maybe on the 3ds.

1 frame windows so ez

 

[GHNeko]

@ GHNeko why do you keep calling the game..kerfluffle??

Plus, it's supposed to be kerfuffle, without the l, but pls it's really confusing

Because it was an early nickname that /v/ had for it and it stuck with me because it's silly, just like the game.

And ****, I thought I was spelling it right and that firefox didnt know what the hell I was spelling.

The brawl ATs that were gone are mostly the character specific ones, yet some are still in. For example (not gonna name all of them, just the ones to come to mind)
So far Ive heard/tested that Yoshi's Dragonic Reverse, Peach's Floatdash, Peach's freepull and bonewalk, Pika's QAC, Pit's Arrow Loop (obvious), Wario's Bike Loop, Kirby's Hammer Cancel, Ganon's Super Jump, MK's side-b edgecancel, Olimar's Pluck Land Cancel, Fox/Falco laser land cancel, and Samus' Missle land cancel, are gone. Not to mention all the ones I'm forgetting, and didn't test/hear about staying or leaving.

Whether people think these are useful or not isnt the point, its the idea that these techs are not there. But it could be that the 3ds and WiiU are different but that is very unlikely. Yet there are a lot of techs that are still in. My whole point was, why were some things kept while a lot werent. Who is deciding these things. Im sure its got something to do with the engine and how the move works, im just saying how convenient that they'd change those, but then again some stayed.

The engine specific ATs that you listed that are still there are fine, but one could ask; why are they in? Thats really the whole basis of my confusion. Im also really bad at explaining things so I wouldnt be surprised if people dont understand.

ediT: and like Mech implied, im not mad or salty or whining or anything like that. I'll find all the tech and use it probably find more use for it than most people. Im literally just curious/confused.

Derp. I forgot about those. But outside of like Arrow Loop and Laser/Missile Cancels, arent the rest of the ATs not engine exceptions and just unintended glitches that have nothing to do with forgiveness?

Arrow Loop and Laser/Missile cancels are probably just design choices at this point.

As for the engine specific ATs, why are they in?

Probably because they're the result of input forgiveness and either they werent caught during QA, or the devs felt, that like wavedashing, wouldn't be really exploited on a grand-scale and left it in.

 

[Phan7om]

1 frame windows so ez

I take it back, DACUS is probably harder than most Melee tech lmao

Edit: Wait then theres a twist. DACUS is harder than most melee tech, but easier than most Brawl tech. Yet Melee is harder than Brawl? wut.

 

[GHNeko]

DACUS can only qualify difficult in PM, in my eyes.

It's ez in Brawl lel.

 

[JCOnyx]

I'm actually pretty cool with the loss of QAC since it now has enough hitstun to actually combo with. QA shenanigans in S4 are so fun and a I expect to see more Pikachu once we can start using GC controllers.

On a side note, I was able to immediately follow it up with an attack on one occasion. Like no landing lag at all. I can't remember the exact circumstances, might have been an aerial attack and I just edge canceled it, but I could have sworn I was grounded. I'll get back to you guys if I ever encounter it again.

 

[Motobug]

Can't really complain when Sonic is on the receiving end.

May all the Sonics suffer a similar painful death

 

[Vashimus]

not to accuse you of this in particular, but I'm getting pretty sick of hearing others say that "smash 4 sucks 'cause look these characters are better than all the others, and that's why melee is better"

it's like, have you played melee

Yeah, in terms of balance, it's really what I've come to expect from Sakurai, and it doesn't really mean much to me since I won't be playing it for competitive reasons. It's still leagues better than the last entry, so that's a win in my book.

As a matter of fact, when Smash 4 comes out on Wii U, I don't think there's any reason to run Brawl tournaments anymore. The new game is just superior in practically every way, and all the Brawl players will migrate to the new game anyway. It'd probably have a small dedicated fanbase akin to 64 at best.

 

[The_Altrox]

Even if the top tier grills just have a lot of things going for them over other characters.

Pretty much Soul Calibur II, where all the female characters were okay at worst and amazing at best.

I don't think will do well though and could go either way.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

We'd be very lucky if we even have that.
I'm still in Beard Mode (100%ing the 3DS game) and I don't have plans to play this game competitively..... or smash for that matter.
I'm down for friendlies of all kind though.
I'm too Marvelous to commit to Smash anymore.

Honestly I haven't grinded for this long since Pokemon. I mean I cleared Classic with everyone, did the Pause buffer trick and only have all of Mega Man and Sheik's specials.
I also cleared 9.0 with Yoshi, naked, raw, no equipment, no condom, no continues, and didn't get any of Yoshi's specials. >_>
No Special message either.
The RNG in most games hates me. At least Smash Run is giving me less duplicates.

 

[trash?]

I think there's a really depressing reality in how brawl's kind of kneeling over post-wiiu release

like melee players are melee players, but brawl players were always just kind of smash players before they were brawl players, if that makes sense. brawl was dead the second a new game came out

it's why they buckled under pressure almost immediately after melee got a resurgence in popularity. in fact, there's a good point in brawl's "best" tournament coming at apex 2013, just a few days before melee got confirmed for evo after the breast cancer drive

 

[Soft Serve]

We'd be very lucky if we even have that.
I'm still in Beard Mode (100%ing the 3DS game) and I don't have plans to play this game competitively..... or smash for that matter.
I'm down for friendlies of all kind though.
I'm too Marvelous to commit to Smash anymore.

Honestly I haven't grinded for this long since Pokemon. I mean I cleared Classic with everyone, did the Pause buffer trick and only have all of Mega Man and Sheik's specials.
I also cleared 9.0 with Yoshi, naked, raw, no equipment, no condom, no continues, and didn't get any of Yoshi's specials. >_>
No Special message either.
The RNG in most games hates me. At least Smash Run is giving me less duplicates.

Try the angry birds mode to get customs, just pause immediately and see if there is a custom target, if not just hit the retry button. It's the least frustrating imo.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Glitches at release in this day and age are fine, but if 3 months from now they haven't fixed jack about the 3DS version (the ridiculous bugginess of some characters not the cool engine exploits) and the Wii U becomes the Patched Edition of the game, I think people do have every right to be upset that they rushed this out the door.

Melee may have been rushed in one year's time, but it doesn't suffer from even close to the sort of technical issues found on the 3DS. And that was a launch title.

 

[Saito]

After that Corneria glitch with ness, I'm ****ing hardened to anything smash 4 glitch related.

 

[GHNeko]

Wario tops everything.

I lose horribly every time I see that nigga fly in some random ****ing direction. I cant even make it to the afterlife when he flies in some random direction and then DIES.

just so much

 

[Comeback Kid]

Wario's Fart Wind Shifts (FWS) are just like any advanced tech, Smash is all about dat glitchfest. The new wavedashing.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Capcom patches USF4, but somehow brought back the SFXT DLC cheat. Thanks for the free dlc capcom :D

 

[Gamegenie222]

I think there's a really depressing reality in how brawl's kind of kneeling over post-wiiu release

like melee players are melee players, but brawl players were always just kind of smash players before they were brawl players, if that makes sense. brawl was dead the second a new game came out

it's why they buckled under pressure almost immediately after melee got a resurgence in popularity. in fact, there's a good point in brawl's "best" tournament coming at apex 2013, just a few days before melee got confirmed for evo after the breast cancer drive

It makes sense and yeah I hear ya on it. Guess Brawl's stigma was too much for some people combined with lack of leadership back then like we have now for smash along with self-defeatist attitudes and PM coming up and alot of those players went to PM until the smash 4 release and in some of the top brawl players eyes PM killed the brawl scene to them but to each his own.

Brawl has two options at this point either as a best case scenario for the game is the game will become like 64 and have a niche at Apex and tourneys for it for it's diehards or worst case scenario and the game is just dead and no one will touch it again because it's regarded as black sheep status unless to play subspace emissary, coin launcher, boss battles, the masterpieces of old games and for Snake,Wolf, Lucas, PKMN trainer and Ice Climbers or to bust out items FFA's.

Reminds me of Soul Calibur 3 in alot of ways in some areas funnily enough.

 

[Player -0]

Pikachu can still QAC, I saw it in a Smash 4 video.

 

[DMG]

I think it's the cheater version of QAC, where you cancel it by sliding off an edge or something. It looks poopoo and we're banning Pikachu FINAL ANSWER REGIS

 

[Phan7om]

Pikachu can still QAC, I saw it in a Smash 4 video.

wtf where? Cuz i just tried that ish and that niga cant QAC.