Project M Recommended Ruleset

[Narpas_sword]

I was talking about the platform.

Edit: Ialso never said that it made wavedashing easier, I said you can wavedash better.

whatever. point still stands.

You can't say its better one way and not worse the other way.

 

[PlateProp]

whatever. point still stands.

You can't say its better one way and not worse the other way.

Point doesn't stand at all because it's irrelevant. There's not a significant enough change in distance from different angles of the plat for the stage to be banned. Maybe instead of complaining about how YI ****s up "muh wavelands" people should actually go and practice on the stage. It's a players responsibility to be able to play on ALL stages in their stage list. If you not being able to do something on a specific stage because you wouldn't put in the practice time it's your fault. (This isin't directed at you specifically unless you may have been one of the people complaing).

 

[Narpas_sword]

Uh.
I wasnt arguing the viability of the stage.

I was saying that you cant say it's better uphill, then go to say it's not worse downhill.

 

[PlateProp]

Uh.
I wasnt arguing the viability of the stage.

I was saying that you cant say it's better uphill, then go to say it's not worse downhill.

I said it wasnt directed at you. And I never said it wasn't worse downhill. I said the difference in distance between the two is insignificant.

Please read.

 

[Rawkobo]

In regards to the Yoshi's Story discussions on the earlier pages:

I would be fine with that stage in PM as a starter like in Melee if it wasn't for the fact that the stage wasn't balanced around Brawl model sizes. YS in Melee is a legitimate small stage even with Randall being a slight bit of a jank recovery support (I'm aware he's on a timer, but just because he's on a timer doesn't mean I can't alter my play around the stage to use it in my favor).

But because the stage wasn't rebalanced around Brawl model sizes like WW technically is, the blast zones kill earlier on a large amount of the cast and prevent many forms of recovery in a way that they didn't do in Melee. If you want to prove this for yourself, try going as deep as Armada did with side-B Peach Bomber to recover in PM versus Melee. It doesn't work nearly as low.

I think YS is a CP at best because I can't imagine wanting to go here myself unless my opponent leaves it up and I know i can jank them out so hard.

Also, glad to hear Delfino's Secret is going to replace DL64 as our large stage of choice. A lot about that stage being legal, even as a counterpick, has been bothering me recently.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I said it wasnt directed at you. And I never said it wasn't worse downhill. I said the difference in distance between the two is insignificant.

Please read.

eh, the post you made made it sound like that's what you meant.
either way, this is a pointless argument, my apologies for being obtuse.

#neededmorningcoffeejohns

 

[Bazkip]

In regards to the Yoshi's Story discussions on the earlier pages:

I would be fine with that stage in PM as a starter like in Melee if it wasn't for the fact that the stage wasn't balanced around Brawl model sizes. YS in Melee is a legitimate small stage even with Randall being a slight bit of a jank recovery support (I'm aware he's on a timer, but just because he's on a timer doesn't mean I can't alter my play around the stage to use it in my favor).

But because the stage wasn't rebalanced around Brawl model sizes like WW technically is, the blast zones kill earlier on a large amount of the cast and prevent many forms of recovery in a way that they didn't do in Melee. If you want to prove this for yourself, try going as deep as Armada did with side-B Peach Bomber to recover in PM versus Melee. It doesn't work nearly as low.

I think YS is a CP at best because I can't imagine wanting to go here myself unless my opponent leaves it up and I know i can jank them out so hard.

Also, glad to hear Delfino's Secret is going to replace DL64 as our large stage of choice. A lot about that stage being legal, even as a counterpick, has been bothering me recently.

iirc the characters models were resized to match Melee.

 

[Narpas_sword]

iirc the characters models were resized to match Melee.

I made this cpmparison when this was brought up in our facebook group.

The comparison was made for DL64, rather than character models, but it still serves a purpose.
They're pretty similar.

 

[Rawkobo]

iirc the characters models were resized to match Melee.

DL64 looks a lot better for this argument than YS does imho, but that's good to know.

 

[Brim]

Project M Recommended Ruleset​

This is the updated and simplified recommended rule set for Project M. This rule set is strictly recommended in an effort to maintain an encompassing standard for our vast community. This rule set is not for copying into a tournament thread, as some small personal tweaks will still need to be addressed. These are dependent solely on the Tournament Host and any authorized assistance.

Stage List

Starter Stage List:

• Green Hill Zone
• Smashville
• Battlefield
• Pokémon Stadium 2
  
• Dreamland 64

Counter Pick Stage List:

• Wario Ware
• Fountain of Dreams
• Final Destination
• Yoshi's Island
• Distant Planet

General Rules

• Items are set to Off and None.
• Stock and Time are set to 4 stock and 7 minutes respectively.
• Regular sets are best of 3 matches.
• The Tournament Host is the arbiter of all disputes.
• Blind Picks: the first character selection of a set must be without prior knowledge of the opponent's character selection for both players.
• Modified Dave's Stupid Rule: No player can counter pick a stage he or she has previously won on unless agreed upon by both players.
• Gentleman's clause: any stage may be played on so long as both players and the Tournament Host agree to it, including banned stages. This can be used in tandem with the Modified Dave's Stupid Rule (MDSR).
• Timed out matches will be determined by the remaining number of lives, then percentage of the current stock. In the event of a percentage tie, replay that match. Any Sudden Death match is strictly not to be played.

Additional Rules for Teams Play

• Life Stealing is allowed.
• Set team attack to On.

Project M Counter Pick System

1. Blind Picks character selection.
2. Stage Striking: Players eliminate stages from the Starter Stage List until only 1 remains, and the players then play the first match on that stage. Players strike stages in 1 2 2 1 order. Striking order is determined by player seed or by Rock-Paper-Scissors.
3. The first match is played.
4. Winning player of the preceding match picks a character.
5. Losing player of preceding match picks a character.
6. Winning player of preceding match bans 2 stages.
7. Losing player of preceding match picks one of the remaining stages after bans and MDSR.
8. The next match is played.
9. Repeat 4-8 for each consecutive match as necessary until the set is complete.

Recommendations to Tournament Hosts

• Players are responsible for their own general welfare in regards to the tournament. In other words, players are responsible for:
  1. Being familiar with the rule set and stage list
  2. Entrance and venue fees
  3. Arriving on time
  4. Maintaining personal hygiene
  5. Controllers and character knowledge
  6. Minimizing Johns

• Sets are usually based on double-elimination brackets which may be seeded at the Tournament Host's discretion. If your tournament is any other format, make a note to advertise it accordingly.
• Some kind of stalling prevention is highly recommended. Since a definition of stalling is too potentially ambiguous here, all instances of stalling are determined by the Tournament Host.
• Unnecessary delays in a set should be discouraged. The Tournament Host is recommended to keep tabs on set completion.
• No more than the previous match should be replayed in the event of a rule violation and it is recommended that any disputes be brought promptly and quickly to the Tournament Host's attention.
• When running a pool, the game count of each set in pool play should be recorded (i.e. whether the set was 2-0 or 2-1). Ranking in a pool is determined by the number of sets won. In case of a tie, the first tiebreaker is the win/loss ratio of the individual games, where the higher ratio wins. In the event of a tie in both set victories and match-up ratios, the player who won the set between the disputed players should advance.
• The semi-final and championship sets should be in best of 5 format.
• The Tournament Host reserves the right at any time to make anyone leave the premises of the tournament.
• For all Project M tournaments, use of the character Giga Bowser is banned.

When did this get changed from 8 minutes?

 

[Deleted member]

When did this get changed from 8 minutes?

i changed it as an experiment to see if it makes long sets go faster or not.

 

[TreK]

We've just finished voting on France's stage list after about 3 weeks of debate :

Starters
Green Hill Zone
Pokémon Stadium 2
Battlefield
Smashville
Dreamland

Counter-Pick
Yoshi's Story
Yoshi's Island
Warioware
Final Destination
Fountain of Dreams

It's not too far from the list from this thread, even though I'm basically the only one who's read it as far as I know haha
Mine was pretty different from it. It has FoD instead of Dreamland as Starter, and has Skyworld and Lylat as CPs on top of those. And I wanted to throw in "loser selects 4 instead of winner bans 3" to reduce the dreaded speculation that Melee players tend to dislike about PM, but oh well. The people have spoken.

 

[varsity_scooter]

Man I sure appreciate that personal hygene clause

 

[Brim]

i changed it as an experiment to see if it makes long sets go faster or not.

In my honest opinion I feel seven is such an arbitrary number, you should honestly try a more rounded number like six. Most games generally don't make it past four minutes. Not in my experience anyway.

 

[Leafeon]

In my honest opinion I feel seven is such an arbitrary number, you should honestly try a more rounded number like six. Most games generally don't make it past four minutes. Not in my experience anyway.

**** no please do not ever
I'm already against 7 minutes, 6 minutes seriously encourages timeouts and would likely increase the overall time a tournament takes because more people are attempting them
if your games are not lasting four minutes vs a puff main then one or both of you are doing something wrong.

 

[Brim]

**** no please do not ever
I'm already against 7 minutes, 6 minutes seriously encourages timeouts and would likely increase the overall time a tournament takes because more people are attempting them
if your games are not lasting four minutes vs a puff main then one or both of you are doing something wrong.

With all due respect 8 minutes is so long the matches never seem to last that long EVER. I'm not a big fan of the timer system going lower, but it's supposed to be there for the option: I can run away if I really want to waste the clock. But that argument doesn't matter if there's too much time. Hell, I'm not even saying eight minutes isn't long enough: I'm just saying in almost every match it never is even close in even a close match for running down the clock to be a viable option.
The matches almost never even get close to the two minute mark, let alone the one minute. And I play against Jiggles a fair amount actually.

 

[Deleted member]

its likely that the timer wont make any real difference as is and it just might go back to 8 anyway. its just not a big deal. good stuff trek

 

[Scatz]

From what I've seen, you can generally expect a max of 6 minutes on campy matches until it becomes excessive camping. This has even been the case for top level play and lower levels.

 

[steakhouse]

Starters
Green Hill Zone
Pokémon Stadium 2
Battlefield
Smashville
Dreamland

Counter-Pick
Yoshi's Story
Yoshi's Island
Warioware
Final Destination
Fountain of Dreams

As a man from France, I personally disapprove this stagelist.

We had a vote, my list lost, wuz starters yoshi's ps2 bf smashville fod as starters (one big one small one medium and two in between) and lylat warioware green hill FD dreamland as CPs (one huge one tiny one awesome for juggling and requiring precise sweetspotting one flat and green hill cuz it's a neat stage and is fun to play on, constantly having action going on)

I can expand more on the reasonning behind my stagelist if asked (y)

Asking the facebook group to vote, never again

 

[Narpas_sword]

As a man from France, I personally disapprove this stagelist.

We had a vote, my list lost, wuz starters yoshi's ps2 bf smashville fod as starters (one big one small one medium and two in between) and lylat warioware green hill FD dreamland as CPs (one huge one tiny one awesome for juggling and requiring precise sweetspotting one flat and green hill cuz it's a neat stage and is fun to play on, constantly having action going on)

I can expand more on the reasonning behind my stagelist if asked (y)

Asking the facebook group to vote, never again

So:

YS
FOD
BF
SV
PS2

WW
GHZ
FD
LC
DL


Uhh.

You call YS small and WW tiny. They're the same size
Not sure what you mean by "one medium and two in between" when you reference BF, SV and FOD ?
That's more like, 2 Med, and one Slightly smaller than med.

you've got 2 tiny stages, and 1 huge in the whole list.
Ps2 is big in terms of stage, but ceiling is low, so floaties get early vert deaths here.

and one of the tiny stages gets go be a starter?

 

[steakhouse]

okey

YS in starters is a stage I'm not attached too but feel is necessary. I like to use Ganon and Puff as my "stagelist checkers" as they both like opposing stages. Also bear with me when I say tiny and small doesn't mean I'm calling them different sizes, I'll be clearer next tiem (btw Yoshi's has smaller stage size than Warioware but further side blastzones afaic)

So what I do with stages is compare them to battlefield, being the median, most neutral stage in most matchups. On my starter list I wanted to have battlefield, two stages that are bigger and two stages that are smaller. I went with PS2 and Smashville as the bigger ones (bigger stage space) since to me dreamland is too big to be a starter and can be extremely polarizing, especialy with the amount of floaties and strong recoveries in PM. I wouldve considered DP instead of PS2 but it doesn't look like anyone will settle for a list that doesn't have ps2 sv and bf in the starters anyways.

Now having battlefield, SV and PS2 as starters, I needed to more to reach my 5-starter 5-CP goal. So I needed to add two smaller stages.

I went for FoD for being a small stage platform-wise, but with a large top blastzone allowing for less early kills that don't involve gimping or offstage edgeguarding.

Now needing one more stage, my choice for a small stage is GHZ, WW and yoshi's. I didn't want GHZ as its blastzones are a bit too similar to FoD (high ceiling close-ish sides), and my choice was now Yoshi's or Warioware. Warioware being the one with the closest blastzones (measured in distance from the edge of the main platform), I went for Yoshi's. I agree that it's not optimal due to Randall's tether-screwing abilities but it's something that can be somewhat worked around, and would lead to far less fraudulent stocks than warioware's blastzones.

I suppose I could've added a large stage in lieu of one of those two small stages, since ps2 and sv are large but not huge, but here's the thing : if you ban FoD and battlefield from BF fod ps2 smashville [large stage], ganon is pretty assed. JIggly on the other hand still has fod and smashville (jiggly is incredible with the moving platform on sv) even without another big stage, so I think my stagelist is find as is

TL;DR 1 : Yoshi's is better than warioware as a small stage due to further blastzones from stage, and randall (who can be timed) creates less fraudulent kill situations than warioware
FoD is mostly small but big in one dimension
BF
PS2
SV (those three are self explanatory)
No other big stage cuz lots of floaties and these 5 stages always offer at least two OK-to-good stages for both late-survivors and early killers.

Now that I have my list of starters I need 5 CPs to compliment my list.

The first, pretty obvious choice is Final Destination. Its flatness creates very unique ways of playing matchups (any given matchup will often be played wildly differently on final destination due to lack of platforms, which restricts placement, empowers projectiles, and offers insane juggling potential in some cases).

I then added dreamland, cuz dreamland's late deaths are important and dreamland is a hyperfloaties stage of choice without being an awful stage for most characters.

Likewise, Warioware is important to have for the likes of Ganon, Roy yada yada yada

Two more stages are needed.

I love Lylat's juggle potential and unforgiving lips of death. It's unique layout give it a middle ground between FD and Yoshi's Island (which would be fine if not for the slanted stage, nothing sucks more than missing a powerful punish because of an angled stage). The other thing about lylat is that it opens up extremely powerful movement options for characters that rely on wavedashes/lands and punishes sloppy recovery. As a whole it leads to more fast paced matches and encourages precision. I don't find Lylat to be bad for many characters either. We even talked about having it as a starter at some point.

My last stage was a struggle between Norfair and Green Hill. I went with Green Hill because Norfair is incredible for a fast character if played full-on campy whereas Green Hill has very few periods where nothing is happening, and fast paced gameplay is imo just better for the game and more fun to play and watch and forces players to react quickly. Again Norfair couldve been here due to lack of big big stages on my list. I also love Drac's but its positionning on page 2 (wtf pmbr) wouldve made a melee doubles dk64 case of never even considered stage. yes there are exceptions. Still, I'd like every stage to have at least 10% selection rate on each set.

TL;DR2 : Warioware and Dreamland are the two extremes as far as blastzone distance goes and are hyperstages for many characters.
FD rewards perfect play (M2K leffen @ apex2013) and brings matchups diversity, even in one given matchup due to being a very unique stage
Lylat is bad for very few characters and its unforgiving edges punish sloppy play while unlocking awesome movement options for wavedash heavy characters. "The background is too distracting" is not a good argument, if the background is distracting you you are not focused on what is going in the game enough.
Norfair vs Green Hill : one is fun but is insane for fast chars if they decide to camp (get a percent lead, run is a viable strategy in Norfair and that is just a no-go) while green hill's small stage size and occasional platform shenanigans bring dynamic play that forces people to come up with combos as they're going to best use the current platform position

(out of context : thank you to whoever coded the "draft saved" feature, smashboards went down while I was typing the TLDR2 and I was afraid I just lost 20 minutes of typing)

Whadya think

I'm sure you'll find loopholes to what I'm saying but I think my list is a pretty good base that equally favors all characters.

btw, 1-2-1 for striking, 2 bans in bo3, 1 ban in bo5, dsr always applies (cannot select stage where you already won)

 

[Narpas_sword]

I actually agree with most of you sentiments towards each stage, i just find it weird to have YS in starter, not balanced by a very large stage in starter.

If, as you say (and i agree) DL is too big for a starter, surely YS is too small?
Id rather have either WW or YS (not both), and DL in CP's.
Maybe i just have tether-fail salt for YS...im certainly not immune from personal stage bias =p


Not sure why you have different striking rules for bo3 vs bo5 either?

I guess in the end it all depends on how Delphino Secrets fits in size wise. If its a nice middle between DL54 and PS2, its going to be perfect as a starter.

from the 3.6 trailer:

bottom center 5 as starters and middle center 5 as CP is looking good.
and if TO wants, to do all bottom and mid, that kind of works too.

 

[steakhouse]

I actually agree with most of you sentiments towards each stage, i just find it weird to have YS in starter, not balanced by a very large stage in starter.

If, as you say (and i agree) DL is too big for a starter, surely YS is too small?
Id rather have either WW or YS (not both), and DL in CP's.
Maybe i just have tether-fail salt for YS...im certainly not immune from personal stage bias =p

As I said in my previous post, the final stage of starters after FoD BF SV PS2, I wasn't very sure of. The reason I went for Yoshi's Story instead of WW is that WW usualy causes more bull**** kills than Yoshi's due to its much, much closer blast zones. I didn't like GHZ either cuz of similar blastzones to FoD, though I could get behind GHZ instead of Yoshi's in my starter list.

In the end it's still a tossup between yoshi's wario and green hill for my last starter stage.

For your point of having only one of yoshi's and warioware, check this out :
Small stages in my list : 4 (GHZ FoD WW YS)
Medium stages in my list : 3 (BF Lylat SV) (Lylat is medium and not large cuz you die sooper fast if you **** up while getting edgeguarded and that will happen a lot. SV as well due to platform shenanigans. In general you die faster on these two then the three bellow)
Large and medium-large stages in my list : 3 (PS2 FD Dreamland)
Swapping out either WW or YS would put give a 3/3/4 list. It's not that bad, but all things considered, most floaties (not hyperfloaties) don't *require* a huge stage to be efficient. On the other hand, Ganon on Yoshi's is sooooo much better than Ganon on FD. You know what I mean ? Besides, Peach is good on huge stages like dreamland, but is still good on yoshi's for instance. What I'm trying to say is characters who like small stages usualy hate large ones, (Ganon can barely waveland on dreamland 64 and powerful recovery doesn't really even that out) but the other way around isn't true (Peach and Toon Link are two great examples of characters that are excellent on both Yoshi's, Warioware and Dreamland).
A middle ground would be Yoshi's island instead of whichever small stage I don't put in starters, since it's a large stage that small-stage-liking characters still enjoy.

Not sure why you have different striking rules for bo3 vs bo5 either?

The accumulation of DSRm if game 5 is reached in a bo5 match + 2 bans can result in 4 bans which is too much for 10 stages (for comparision, Melee has 6 stages, 1 ban in bo3, and no ban in bo5, with DSR being "you can't go to the last stage you won on". DSRm is "you can't go to ANY stage you've won on).

... I didn't phrase that very well, I can clear up if you'd like.

I guess in the end it all depends on how Delphino Secrets fits in size wise. If its a nice middle between DL54 and PS2, its going to be perfect as a starter.

I don't know why France decided to vote on its stagelist now. Am impatient to see Delfino's dimensions. Would probably replace PS2 or SV in my list.

and if TO wants, to do all bottom and mid, that kind of works too.

That is always true though, and the point of this thread is to find a final stagelist Atm in montreal for example, smashville is a CP. When I tell that to anyone from outside, they're like WUUUAAAAAT ?
And to be fair, position on the stage selection screen shouldn't be a factor in deciding the list, as long as the stage is not on page 2 (then it *can* be a factor, but doesn't have to be)

Anyways, here's the best possible stagelist imo :

Starters :
Yoshi's Story (Randall is really not that bad <3) / Warioware / Green Hill Zone
Fountain of Dreams
Battlefield
Smashville
PS2

Counterpicks :
Yoshi's Story / Warioware / Green Hill Zone / Yoshi's Island
Yoshi's Story / Warioware / Green Hill Zone
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Dreamland

wat think ?

btw your smashtag is s-tier

 

[Narpas_sword]

As I said in my previous post, the final stage of starters after FoD BF SV PS2, I wasn't very sure of. The reason I went for Yoshi's Story instead of WW is that WW usualy causes more bull**** kills than Yoshi's due to its much, much closer blast zones. I didn't like GHZ either cuz of similar blastzones to FoD, though I could get behind GHZ instead of Yoshi's in my starter list.

In the end it's still a tossup between yoshi's wario and green hill for my last starter stage.

For your point of having only one of yoshi's and warioware, check this out :
Small stages in my list : 4 (GHZ FoD WW YS)
Medium stages in my list : 3 (BF Lylat SV) (Lylat is medium and not large cuz you die sooper fast if you **** up while getting edgeguarded and that will happen a lot. SV as well due to platform shenanigans. In general you die faster on these two then the three bellow)
Large and medium-large stages in my list : 3 (PS2 FD Dreamland)
Swapping out either WW or YS would put give a 3/3/4 list. It's not that bad, but all things considered, most floaties (not hyperfloaties) don't *require* a huge stage to be efficient. On the other hand, Ganon on Yoshi's is sooooo much better than Ganon on FD. You know what I mean ? Besides, Peach is good on huge stages like dreamland, but is still good on yoshi's for instance. What I'm trying to say is characters who like small stages usualy hate large ones, (Ganon can barely waveland on dreamland 64 and powerful recovery doesn't really even that out) but the other way around isn't true (Peach and Toon Link are two great examples of characters that are excellent on both Yoshi's, Warioware and Dreamland).
A middle ground would be Yoshi's island instead of whichever small stage I don't put in starters, since it's a large stage that small-stage-liking characters still enjoy.

Yea fair enough, the consideration of how floaties perform on small vs how small stage lovers perform on large is something i havent considered as much.

I dont consider WW to be so much different to YS as you seem tho think though, they're slightly closer, but its not hugely noticeable. if you die on WW, you were very likely to die on YS too.

The accumulation of DSRm if game 5 is reached in a bo5 match + 2 bans can result in 4 bans which is too much for 10 stages (for comparision, Melee has 6 stages, 1 ban in bo3, and no ban in bo5, with DSR being "you can't go to the last stage you won on". DSRm is "you can't go to ANY stage you've won on).

... I didn't phrase that very well, I can clear up if you'd like.

yea, i understand,my mistake, i thought the Daves stupid rule was only for the game you won on last, not all of them.
Tbh, it is a stupid rule...

If your opponent doesn't ban it, after you've won on it, then you should be allowed to choose it.


As far as what id go with, it's exactly the middle 10 of the pic i posted before. i think those are almost perfect as a stage list.
i'd put lylat in over yoshi island though.

 

[steakhouse]

Yea fair enough, the consideration of how floaties perform on small vs how small stage lovers perform on large is something i havent considered as much.

I dont consider WW to be so much different to YS as you seem tho think though, they're slightly closer, but its not hugely noticeable. if you die on WW, you were very likely to die on YS too.

Tipper on ledge is death above 20% on warioware. Not the case on Yoshi's. Its pretty much true for every strong attack. That's my problem with warioware ; if you get it by a strong attack near the edges of the stage (not offstage), you'll die at 50 if you're not bowser. This is not the case on Story and Randall adds recovery options which are important in limiting the cheese factor.

yea, i understand,my mistake, i thought the Daves stupid rule was only for the game you won on last, not all of them.
Tbh, it is a stupid rule...

If your opponent doesn't ban it, after you've won on it, then you should be allowed to choose it.

Respectfully disagree. I'm a fan of stage diversity so I like DSR. You should be able to win on multiple stages. Smash isn't just about matchups and fundamentals, but also about stage positionning.

Btw : DSR is "you can't pick the stage you previously won on". DSRm (which is generally used universally in PM) is "you can't pick any stage you've won on"

As for you list, not a fan of a list including both PS2 and distant planet. Distant planet is just Pokémon Stadium 3. Would be acceptable with dreamland instead. Not my favorite, but acceptable

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Personally, I think that Norfair should replace FD as a counterpick. Norfair is a really unique stage that works well as a counterpick. Stages with extreme attributes such as Dreamland should obviously be omitted from an optimized stagelist, and FD's lack of platforms is an extreme attribute that often makes it too effective as a counterpick.

YS, Dreamland, and Lylat (and FD in my opinion) being left out from a standardized stagelist makes sense, but not Norfair. There's nothing problematic or polarizing about Norfair, and it really deserves to be on every stagelist.

That being said, I think the stagelist in the OP is by far the best PM stagelist I've seen so far (assuming Dreamland is replaced with Delfino).

 

[steakhouse]

YS, Dreamland, and Lylat being left out from a standardized stagelist makes sense, but not Norfair. There's nothing problematic or polarizing about Norfair, and it really deserves to be on every stagelist.

FD is far less polarizing than norfair. Norfair's main platform is the same as FD, but Norfair's platforms are too high to interfere with combos until like 70% on fastfallers. They do allow fast characters (Fawks) to hypercamp though. Once fox is up there, you can't reach him with most of the cast without burning your doublejump which isn't a generally good idea vs a spacie. And even if he doesn't challenge you he can just go back to the main platform or quickly get to the other one with illusion without leaving enough time for you to reach him.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i dont think norfair is anywhere close to competitively viable, same with yoshi story, same with dreamland

 

[steakhouse]

I wouldn't say either of these stages aren't "anywhere close to being competitively viable" but I don't think they should be starters, nor do I think they should be automatic CPs. They're deffinetly more viable than stuff like Mute City.

Then again, PM's small stages are kinda sub-par when it comes to having a neutral small stage. None of them really work perfectly. Green Hill is more of a medium stage and isn't that good for typical small-stage-lovers, warioware's blastzones are too close, FoDs platforms are random (please make a water effect before they appear ) and yoshi's has slanted edges and randall's tether breaking mechanics. Yet a 5-stage starter list should (imo) have at least two of these stages.

 

[Sandfall]

FoDs platforms are random (please make a water effect before they appear )

FoD's platforms are definitely not random. We can't really add randomized elements to stages.

 

[steakhouse]

Let me rephrase

FoD's platforms -feel- random and are very hard to predict (if they can be predicted, no general knowledge of how to do so is made public, unlike randall's timer). As such, making them either easier to predict (one platform changes altitudes every 30 seconds for example) or adding a visual queue (like the white shy guy on yoshi's island ; i reckon adding water ripples wouldn't be impossible to program) would probably make FoD better in everybody's book.

 

[Strong Badam]

No one has put the effort into learning them and sharing them with the public. That's not the stage's fault.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

If platform camping is actually a big problem on Norfair that makes it not competitively viable, then I can see why it's excluded from the stagelist even though it's one of my personal favorite stages to play on.

Anyway, Umbreon's ruleset is super balanced and basically perfect (with Dreamland replaced by Delfino's Secret). My only complaint is that FD is not banned because I really dislike FD and think it should be replaced with something else.

I really hope that all PM tournaments start using a standardized ruleset when 3.6 drops, and Umbreon's suggested ruleset is the most ideal and balanced with our current selection of stages. Standardization of the PM ruleset/stagelist will allow many aspects of the metagame to develop further and more quickly than they are currently.

 

[Cubelarooso]

No one has put the effort into learning them and sharing them with the public. That's not the stage's fault.

*ahem*

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I would be great if every major and regional had a standard rule set. However, I still would like experimentation in smaller tournies like weeklies.

 

[ChiePet]

The options are all there, always, but everyone almost Always Rock-Paper-Scissors Mentally between BattleField, Smashville, or PS2.

Our ruleset I believe is DMV Area/Xanadu standard;

8min 4 stock Items off, ect
Starters: GHZ | PS2 | BF | SV | Dreamland
Counter: YS | YI | Norfair | FoD | FD | WW

outside that we use these for whatever because they're limited on hazards and a good break from the norm;
Friendlies: Hyrule Castle 64 | PS1 | Halberd | Peach Castle

I think we also just do stage strikes in the 1-2-2-1 or 1-2-1 format, as well as Ban last stage Won on unless the Loser agrees to it, Winner character locked.

Originally I asked if this was Standard or what Was standard, but this thread seems to not have that decided yet :T

 

[steakhouse]

No one has put the effort into learning them and sharing them with the public. That's not the stage's fault.

"Left platform at top position frames 1-601
Left platform at middle position frames 850-1101
Left platform at bottom (inaccessible) position frames 1250-2401
Left platform at middle position frames 2600-2901
Left platform at top position frames 3200-3601
Left platform at bottom (inaccessible) position frames 3800-4401
Left platform at middle position frames 4640-5301
Left platform at top position frames 6000

Right platform at top position frames 1-801
Right platform at middle position frames 1100-2201
Right platform at top position frames 2500-2801
Right platform at middle position frames 3000-4101
Right platform at bottom (inaccessible) position frames 4300-5201
Right platform at top position frames 5900-6000

Total length 6000 frames"

rolls right of your tongue and sooper easy to remember amirite

meanwhile randall :

every 10 seconds he pops on one side of the field and chills for 5 secs

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

what percentage of players actually actively pay attention to Randall's movements? probably very few

also, no one cares about learning FoD's platform movements because there's no reason to

 

[DMG]

also, no one cares about learning FoD's platform movements because there's no reason to

Captain Falcon here, brb committing Sudoku

Spoiler

 

[steakhouse]

what percentage of players actually actively pay attention to Randall's movements? probably very few

its but one of many factors that separate (****ing christ how do you spell that word) the good players from the rest.

There's deffinetly plenty of reasons to learn FoD platform timing but you need a PhD to get it down