Project M Demo: Stage List Debate Thread for OTL

[Dark Sonic]

It isn't permanent, it's interrupted on a regular basis by cars. Walk-offs are also high-risk, high-reward in a Melee environment, and thus balanced by default anyway.

Waveshining....it still exists. And players can still get a percentage lead and then camp on one side of the house to force a very risky, predictable airborne approach.

And being interrupted by cars does not mean it's not a permanent walkoff. They are a very brief hitbox that gives you plenty of warning that can easily be avoided without even moving from your spot (you can shield or spotdodge cars on reaction, or just jump over them). In additon, while you are avoiding said car, your opponent still won't be able to approach you because...they'd risk getting hit by the car you just avoided (this is assuming you're camping on the right side. Left side camping is inferior imo)


Also, things to look forward to in the demo patch.

1. The gun on Corneria will no longer be a platform
2. PTAD's main platform will have ledges.

yay

 

[Cubone]

Also, things to look forward to in the demo patch.

1. The gun on Corneria will no longer be a platform
2. PTAD's main platform will have ledges.

yay

1. Yay!
2. Adding... ledges?

Where did you get this info?

 

[Ugg]

Added Dream Land 64 and FoD to the STARTERS section. This makes a 9-starter list.

Thoughts?

 

[Dark Sonic]

1. Yay!
2. Adding... ledges?

Where did you get this info?

2. PTAD's main platform (the one you ride on for most of the match) will have grabable edges.

I'm on the development team.

 

[dualseeker]

Oh yay Grabable ledges in PTAD ^__^! Alright, my arguments out the window XD. Well, people shouldn't have as much problems if PTAD has ledges. And if the walls and the cars have been nerfed, then people won't die as early if they get into a bad position.

@Ugg: I don't have a problem with that ^__^.

 

[PwnerBren7]

Yoshi's Story is too legit to leave out though... it should be 11 imo.

 

[MikeKirby]

Not for nothing, I don't want to turn this into a PTAD discussion but, if you get hit by the cars it's your own fault... Dodging them isn't that hard. Same with the wall. You placed yourself in that position if you do get hit. Recovering with the floor isn't that bad. If you find that bad then tell all the Snakes to stop using their C4 for recovering. I'm on the boat with Cubone on this one. The whole ledge thing too. Mute City had no ledges and it was fine (omitting everything else). I find the reduced damage/knockback the developers implemented to be fine though.

 

[professor mgw]

Yoshi Story just seems like another v of battlefield to me...

 

[PwnerBren7]

I just realized that Pictochat:M is a starter... why? I get the fact that they removed the really harmful transformations but Yoshi's Melee seems like a better starter than that. Aren't staters supposed to be generally neutral? If we interchange the 2 we can still have 9, I can't really think of anything else to add besides Yoshi's:M which would make it 10. Any thoughts?

 

[Cubone]

I just realized that Pictochat:M is a starter... why? I get the fact that they removed the really harmful transformations but Yoshi's Melee seems like a better starter than that. Aren't staters supposed to be generally neutral? If we interchange the 2 we can still have 9, I can't really think of anything else to add besides Yoshi's:M which would make it 10. Any thoughts?

Adding Yoshi's and Halberd to make it 11 starters or knocking it back down to the original 7 would be preferable to me over the 9.

 

[PwnerBren7]

Adding Yoshi's and Halberd to make it 11 starters or knocking it back down to the original 7 would be preferable to me over the 9.

I'd go with this about the 11. If not 11, then I think Yoshi's:M replacing Picto:M would be good for the 9.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

To make it simple you would have to add/cut a stage and have the list as a whole being odd. The second person striking would also need 1 to take one of the first's somewhere in the process.

I'll work something out.

For Corneria doesn't that fall under stalling? Especially if Puff is the only one exploiting it.

1. It's not stalling, it's camping.
2. Banning stalling is the stupidest rule in existence and should never be placed on any rule-set ever.

Saffron I'm really on the fence about due to the awkward layout and the fact that its just a huge stage.

Having an awkward lay-out and being large are generally qualities of a legal stage.

Unless you can find some incredibly over-centralizing tactic there, or a character who just destroys all competition without having to actually know how to use them, the stage is fine.

Onett I have issues with those same two points, as well as the walkoffs (the cars may interrupt but camping them is still an issue.) and an effect similar to a cave of life where all they have to do is DI down and tech the buildings.

The cave of life doesn't over-centralize teching, so it isn't actually an issue. The camping isn't broken there in my experience, and unless we are working on a bizarre guilty-until-proven-innocent system, could someone like me to a video where someone abused walk-off camping on Onett to prove it's ban-worthiness?

 

[Cubone]

How is Onett different enough that it should be legal now, despite it being banned in the past 2 installments of smash bros?

Banning Corneria over 1 character using a technique that can easily be classified as stalling and thus banned is ********. Theres a reason Rising pound, peach bomber, etc were banned before as stalling.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How is Onett different enough that it should be legal now, despite it being banned in the past 2 installments of smash bros?

For one, there are no wall infinites in Project M. But I support it being legal for Melee and Brawl as well.

Banning Corneria over 1 character using a technique that can easily be classified as stalling and thus banned is ********. Theres a reason Rising pound, peach bomber, etc were banned before as stalling.

I told you already that it isn't stalling and that the stalling rule doesn't even make sense. It doesn't matter anyway, because the guns are being removed in the final version.

If you want to know why we can't just ban Rising Pound Camping, it's because that opens the flood-gates to banning ANYTHING. What's that? Temple is banned because of circle camping and the cave of life? Ban players from going to the bottom section!

I can literally make that example for almost everything in the game, we'd soon have a rule-book (notice that I didn't say rule-set) so convulted that nobody would have a clue what they were doing.

 

[Magus420]

Have you actually tried this unbeatable Jigglypuff gun camping strategy of yours at all? If you did you'd realize that you lose height with rising pound if you don't use a DJ (it is not an infinite stall) and would need to land on the gun to refresh your jumps probably 100 times or more over the course of 8 minutes, and would get fried 4 times well before getting anywhere close to that.

In melee, Ness can absorb camp the gun spark and YL can protect himself from it with his shield while crouching against the wall. In brawl it is neither absorbable or blockable. The gun isn't being removed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Have you actually tried this unbeatable Jigglypuff gun camping strategy of yours at all? If you did you'd realize that you lose height with rising pound if you don't use a DJ (it is not an infinite stall) and would need to land on the gun to refresh your jumps probably 100 times or more over the course of 8 minutes, and would get fried 4 times well before getting anywhere close to that.

Yeah, I've done it Magus.

EDIT: ^Was talking about Melee^ Fail, didn't even take in that Pound makes you lose height.

And you don't have to do it for 8 minutes for it to be broken.

In melee, Ness can absorb camp the gun spark and YL can protect himself from it with his shield while crouching against the wall. In brawl it is neither absorbable or blockable. The gun isn't being removed.

Also, things to look forward to in the demo patch.

1. The gun on Corneria will no longer be a platform

yay

 

[Magus420]

I'd like to see an 8 minute video of it then and I'll change my mind.

Edit: Ok. Even 3-4 minutes without killing yourself would do.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm doing it right now, I've done it for a minute so far so far.

I have no means of getting a video to you by myself, I'm afraid. Wifi?

EDIT: You win. Though it just dawned on me that Puff can't use Pound for recovery anymore? That's kind of silly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Forgot to respond to this (bumping the thread so Magus sees my last edit [assuming he is a subscriber]):

Waveshining....it still exists. And players can still get a percentage lead and then camp on one side of the house to force a very risky, predictable airborne approach.

Wait a second... camping to force a predictable approach!?

OH GOD HELP US, THIS STAGE MUST BE DESTROYED IMMEDIAT-

Oh...

Nevermind.

And being interrupted by cars does not mean it's not a permanent walkoff. They are a very brief hitbox that gives you plenty of warning that can easily be avoided without even moving from your spot (you can shield or spotdodge cars on reaction, or just jump over them). In additon, while you are avoiding said car, your opponent still won't be able to approach you because...they'd risk getting hit by the car you just avoided (this is assuming you're camping on the right side. Left side camping is inferior imo)

Pro tip: Approach the opponent when the car goes past and they are forced to shield/jump/air dodge/spot dodge/roll.

 

[Magus420]

Rising pound lost overall height in melee as well (which is why I think the rule I sometimes see against 'infinite stalling' with it is a bit strange since you quickly run out of jumps and need to return to the stage each time), it just loses a bit more in PM and will be fixed when I get to it eventually.

 

[Ugg]

Thanks for confirming that, Magus. I suppose Corneria remains!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hooray! :D

 

[Dark Sonic]

Pro tip: Approach the opponent when the car goes past and they are forced to shield/jump/air dodge/spot dodge/roll.

Pro tip: You still have to avoid the car yourself. The window to hit them after they spotdodge (or just shield) the car while not putting yourself within range to be hit by said car is incredibly small and also does not coincide with the window for punishing any of the other methods of avoiding the car (rolling, airdodging, or jumping).

But sure, leave the stage unbanned and lets see what people do with it I guess <_<.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But sure, leave the stage unbanned and lets see what people do with it I guess <_<.

Good choice.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Sorry if this is against the main topic here BUTTTTTTTT

I think Saffron should be a counterpick. Saffron is an evil stage for Lucas and Ness, however, I don't think banning an entire stage because of the inconvenience of two characters is right. There's this rule exactly for this problem in smash 64. Somebody should check the 64 boards and see if they can find it.

edit: oh i thought i saw saffron on the banned list. anyways, i haven't played in saffron extensively enough to debate about the stage being too big argument.

Saffron was never banned in smash 64. It was considered to be a randomized neutral originally and the ness player could choose to not play on that stage if that stage was randomized first.

Our neutrals are: Hyrule, Dreamland, and Kongo Jungle

Technically online, we can also have FD, BF, and no-cloud Yoshi's Story as neutrals.

Our counterpicks are: the stages listed in Neutrals + Peach's Castle (considered to be a non-neutral due to certain characters becoming much worse there like Link and others becoming gimp machines like Mario

Our semi-banned are: Saffron City (due to excessive camping) and Brinstar (lava/possibly size)

Our bans are: Sector Z (wayyyy too large, Lasers are OP), Mushroom Kingdom (created as a joke stage, walk-offs, Pipe camping/Camping in general, excessive randomness due to Piranhas, Pow Block, and Pipes), and Yoshi's Story (due to cloud camping).