Project M Community MU Chart [αlpha]

[MTL Kyle]

After bashing the idea, I will try to put some input in this.

Mind that :
- Stages and ruleset make a huge difference in Project M
- A lot of numbers might not reflect the actual full potential of the character. A lot of the data might be screwed up because no region can possibly have all characters at high level being played.
- Some characters are really polarized and have a lot of bad matchups to the point where it becomes frustrating to compete with it (namely big bodies and floaties). PM has too many stages and characters available, I suggest to the players to getting used to the idea of classifying some characters as counterpicks.

vs
65 : 35

Momentum and lead have a big role in this matchup, as either character has a huge advantage as soon the first stock is taken and invincibility is over. While Peach does have an advantage with high damage, extended combos, 40% DSmash and in edgeguarding, this matchup is not as free as people think it is and it's not fun if Bowser takes the first stock and starts trading/holding center stage.

vs
35 : 65

Falcon recovers better, has an easier time pulling off combos as the dash timing is not as harsh in this game, has a better recovery and cannot be chaingrabed as much.

I would say this matchup is even beyond what I put here, but I hate Falcon and I am too biased to say anything about this lol

vs
60 : 40

Big bodies get pooped on, specially when they have bad recovery like Zard. He controls the center stage very well and it requires a bit of matchup knowledge to understand all the DI mixups and tricks that Charizard has.

vs
70 : 30

Big body with a not so optimal gameplan against Peach.
He has a linear recovery, doesn't sweetspot the ledge, his shield is negated by the insane pressure strings Peach has an his camping game is not as good against Peach.

He kills her fast and has some cool gimmicks to compensate some stuff.

vs
60 : 40

Wario gets punished way too often by hitting Peaches shield, his grabs aside from down throw don't lead to anything meaningful, which makes shielding safe and his pressure strings are not the best.
The fart is meaninful in the matchup, specially if he wants to play it safe and drag it out.
His recovery is not very good, but you can get clipped by a lot of UpBs if you don't pay attention.

vs
55:45
TBH, I think this matchup in Melee is an endless progression towards a 5:5 that will never happen simply because of how simple is to pull out Sheik's main objectives in the matchup.
In PM it's different, Sheik is easier to edgeguard, her shield is dumb but not as much, you outprioritize a bunch of stuff (dair in PM is really good lol) and without the super easy Dthrow follow ups, I think Peach has a solid case in winning this matchup.

vs
65 : 35
Hard counter.
Squirtle approaches are pretty linear and he suffers a little bit of the Pikachu syndrome (stubby arms, no decent ground options, aerials get ****ed by CC DSmash), even worse when all his other unconventional options are covered by basic stuff.
Did he Withdraw ? DSmash, byebye armor and turtle.
Did he jump and did whatever ? Anti air Nair.

vs
65 : 35
Hard Counter.
Get a % lead. Crouch in the middle of the stage. Watch the world burn as all the options Pikachu has are covered by CC > DSmash or even just flat out DSmashing if he tries to grab you rofl. Run Up Shield is also not an option because his shield is sad. Best option might be approach with a run up upsmash after 40% ? lol
Never seen a Pikachu trying to gimmick his approaches with QAC, but from what I've seen, this matchup is pretty sad.

vs
60 : 40
Imagine playing against Shiek, but without the interesting parts of the matchup.
Olimar's movement is better and more interesting, and his grab game is better (not his throw game though), but he lacks the mixups and threatening game that Sheik has. His aerials are pretty good but he gets corner pressured way too easily and I feel he has to outplay Peach way too much.
I didn't play this matchup as much as I wanted to, but theorycraft 101 tells me Peach wins this

vs
55 : 45
TRIGGER WARNING : PMDT's Bad design.

Spoiler

Ness recovery is flat out ********.
Recovering high > Abusing questionable frame data to recover > get the center stage for free against characters that don't have disjoints is frustrating.
"Space yourself, Shield and Punish with a grab or OoS aerial"

Ness gameplay is interesting, but he still has some core failures in his kit.
The matchup is kinda weird, but tl;dr, Ness doesn't deal with projectiles very well. Either you force him to the corner or you force him to jump.
Floating above him is also pretty good, best punish he can do is a fair or a rising nair, which usually lead to nothing and you can do stuff like cross up nair (which he has trouble dealing with), fair his face/shield and do Peach stuff


vs
40 : 60

It's the baby of Marth and Puff, what do you expect, a good matchup ?! Numbers might be worse, but so far, that's how I feel about it.
In this patch he has better killing tools (he gets edgeguarded better, however) and he can afford to do some risky stuff (Dimensional Cape combos).
CC is really strong, but his dash dance, grab and throw games are amazing and you shouldn't fish for it too much.

vs
10 : 90

This matchup is sad and I don't even want to write about it.

vs
20 : 80

He is Peach, but without commiting as much, better frame data (at least 3.5 was like that) and with a better matchup spread.
This matchup number is not exaggerated and it truly reflects how I felt about the character in 3.5.
With the late Nair changes it might be less bad, but it's not that much of a drastic change (still pretty important one lol)

vs

Soon. Peach loses though lmao



I will edit this post and write the rest soon, I don't feel like doing it all right now

 

[Manaconda]

There are way too many differing opinions on MUs in this game for this chart to make any ground. There is just nobody good enough at this game yet (and that will likely be the case for several years) to get a remotely accurate chart. The focus of 41 MUs is too large and the best players of one character might not even be that good in the grand scheme of things. That being said I'll toss in my bull**** unorganized thoughts while disregarding what I just wrote above.

@ MTL Kyle I generally agree with you about who wins but I think you're overestimating how badly Peach beats DeDeDe and how badly Peach gets beaten by Falcon. Falcon's recovery is better but it's still free for every character, especially Peach. I also don't think the difficulty of executing a dash or anything on that level of techskill should be taken into account when talking about some theoterical top level play, especially an MU we know about in Melee. I don't see this MU being any worse than it is in Melee.

Zard is a moving pile of disjoints and antiairs, not to mention that unlike many other characters he has the multiple jumps and vertical height gain necessary to actually combo Peach. He even has a poke if I'm not mistaken (ftilt?). I actually agree with the chart on this MU and say Zard wins.

It's very weird to see Peach-Diddy given the same number as Peach-ICs. I seriously doubt those two MUs are comparable, even though I agree Diddy convincingly loses.

And even though this is one of the more controversial MUs in Melee when it comes to deciding who wins, I also think that Peach ****s on Falco, especially in PM, while the chart says they are even.

Marth-Peach feels harder than it does in Melee, especially since I've been playing with the same Marths for so long who all know how to deal with turnips so easily with PM mechanics. Looking at Armada's Marth MU guide, I feel pretty confident in saying it's tougher than in Melee, especially since the hardest part of the MU is approaching and none of Peach's buffs coming into PM are focused on that.

Lucas-Peach also looks too extreme in the chart. Silly Kyle, who although is good, is far from the best Peach, and he used to beat Neon pretty convincingly in 3.5. On the other hand Silly Kyle used to be 2nd (?) on the AZ Melee PR just behind Axe, so who knows. I'd hate to be guilty of just looking at an instance of an MU and deciding off of that.

 

[Tomaster]

So apparently every character has a good mu vs bowser... Seems like whoever made the bowser list is a bowser hater

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

So apparently every character has a good mu vs bowser... Seems like whoever made the bowser list is a bowser hater

I wouldn't go that far, but there hasn't been a Bowser player to place their vote yet and other character spreads are influencing it.

 

[Mumbo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgO8pCRGtZU

@Vitriform

Mumbo, your lack of knowledge on how to punish Zelda is apparent.

Edit: This is 3.5, for the record. And understandably, Yoshi lost some kill power on uair, IIRC, but that just means you play the neutral a little more until it can kill.

Aside from the admittedly good edgegaurds, what do you want me to learn from this? Zubat got no juggles except for a uair->rising uair game 1, a usmash -> egg -> uair game 2, and a tilts combo near the end that Zelda could have easily DId out of. Zubat armored through nothing. Down b, which was Yoshi's best kill move on Zelda, doesn't work in 3.6 because of the hitlag change. Zubat got a single aerial off his throws about half the time. For the most part, Zubat just smartly punished the bad teleport spam, which is not how Zelda plays the matchup.

 

[Boiko]

Aside from the admittedly good edgegaurds, what do you want me to learn from this? Zubat got no juggles except for a uair->rising uair game 1, a usmash -> egg -> uair game 2, and a tilts combo near the end that Zelda could have easily DId out of. Zubat armored through nothing. Down b, which was Yoshi's best kill move on Zelda, doesn't work in 3.6 because of the hitlag change. Zubat got a single aerial off his throws about half the time. For the most part, Zubat just smartly punished the bad teleport spam, which is not how Zelda plays the matchup.

I'm not saying that juggling and grab follow ups are the solution to beating Zelda. I'm saying your approach to the MU is incorrect and that youre cleary embellishing her strengths.

 

[Mumbo]

I'm not saying that juggling and grab follow ups are the solution to beating Zelda. I'm saying your approach to the MU is incorrect and that youre cleary embellishing her strengths.

Well I'm seriously asking what I should learn from that

 

[Boiko]

That you have options to counter Zelda and that the MU isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. Face and Zubat played even more recently, both player much better than what was shown here, and Face won with over 100% on his last stock of game three. It's not such a terrible MU.

 

[Mumbo]

That you have options to counter Zelda and that the MU isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. Face and Zubat played even more recently, both player much better than what was shown here, and Face won with over 100% on his last stock of game three. It's not such a terrible MU.

If you tell me that I clearly don't know what I'm doing in the matchup and then say nothing about what you think I should be doing, you aren't helping anyone. These two specific people who had a close set doesn't say anything about whether the matchup is good or not for some people. When I watched the set what I got from it was that Face was making poor teledashes and Zubat was punishing accordingly. Not every Zelda, and especially not smart Zelda's, will spam and misspace Teledash and play so aggressively. What tools exactly do you feel that Yoshi has against an optimal, campy Zelda that I "clearly" don't know about.

If you want to tell me to just win neutral, then yeah, that's how you beat Zelda, if you are a much better player than the Zelda. Yoshi has a poor neutral game that he makes up for (to a degree) with his huge punish game, that just completely crumbles versus Zelda. Zelda also responds to the neutral game tools that Yoshi does have a lot better than most characters (DJ armor especially, egg spam and pivot grab as well). I'm absolutely not saying that the matchup is unwinnable and that Yoshi can't do anything. I'm saying that the things that make Yoshi strong in other matchups don't work against Zelda, and Yoshi is forced to rely on things that he can't do well at all, making it a -3 matchup.

 

[MTL Kyle]

@ MTL Kyle I generally agree with you about who wins but I think you're overestimating how badly Peach beats DeDeDe and how badly Peach gets beaten by Falcon. .

If you say so...

I don't see this MU being any worse than it is in Melee.

Specially when you consider that the character is overall better and with less punishes ?

Wrooooooooooooooong.

Zard is a moving pile of disjoints and antiairs, not to mention that unlike many other characters he has the multiple jumps and vertical height gain necessary to actually combo Peach. He even has a poke if I'm not mistaken (ftilt?). I actually agree with the chart on this MU and say Zard wins.

All of his aerial hitboxes lose to Dair and float camping is godlike. I don't think you have been thinking enough in this matchup.

It's very weird to see Peach-Diddy given the same number as Peach-ICs. I seriously doubt those two MUs are comparable, even though I agree Diddy convincingly loses.

He gets ****ed and gets nothing on Peach. It's not at Peach vs ICs level in Melee because nowadays ICs optimized their windows where they can punish stuff. ICs Peach in PM is way worse than it is in PM also.

Diddy gets wrecked and it's sad.

And even though this is one of the more controversial MUs in Melee when it comes to deciding who wins, I also think that Peach ****s on Falco, especially in PM, while the chart says they are even.

Why ?

Lucas-Peach also looks too extreme in the chart.

Not really. Peach is combo food and Lucas shield pressure negates all of her options. Plus he was really hard to edgeguard before, not sure how it is nowadays since every Lucas quit lol.

You can still camp with mid height float on him, but it's not optimal.

 

[NyTR0]

Lol at Sonic having the disadvantage against Spacies and IVY! I died.

 

[Tomaster]

If you tell me that I clearly don't know what I'm doing in the matchup and then say nothing about what you think I should be doing

You should be winning

Hope this helps

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Snip.

Have you talked to any more Zelda players about this MU?

 

[The Baron]

Lol at Sonic having the disadvantage against Spacies and IVY! I died.

Could you elaborate then?

 

[NyTR0]

Could you elaborate then?

Spacies vs Sonic are 50:50 at most due to the fact that Sonic has so much easy kills on them. Sonic is a monster against fast fallers. When it comes to Ivy it all comes down to the fact that Ivy has such a linear recovery. Easy to just side b to ledge and steal it then just kick Ivy right off stage from the slow get up that tethers have when someone has ledge. Also an easy spring to drop down and hit her with. Notice how sonic has good MU against characters with Linear or bad recoveries.

 

[TreK]

Thing's I'd change for Ivysaur :
Captain Falcon well... No idea. But it's between 0 and -2, not -2 and 2, if that helps.
Charizard +1 instead of +2
DK +3 instead of +1
Falco -2 or -3
Fox -2 or -3
GnW 0 or -1 instead of +1
ICs +3 instead of +2
Link 0 or +1 instead of +2
Lucario -1 or -2 instead of +3 (lol seriously)
Roy -2 instead of +2 (lol seriously)
Sonic 0 instead of 1

The rest either I agree or I have no idea.

The things I'd change for DK :
Ivy -3 instead of -1
Lucario -2 instead of -1

The rest either I agree or I have no idea.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Added Olimar's spread thanks to @PMS | steelguttey

 

[Saproling]

Thing's I'd change for Ivysaur :
Captain Falcon well... No idea. But it's between 0 and -2, not -2 and 2, if that helps.
Charizard +1 instead of +2
DK +3 instead of +1
Falco -2 or -3
Fox -2 or -3
GnW 0 or -1 instead of +1
ICs +3 instead of +2
Link 0 or +1 instead of +2
Lucario -1 or -2 instead of +3 (lol seriously)
Roy -2 instead of +2 (lol seriously)
Sonic 0 instead of 1

The rest either I agree or I have no idea.

The things I'd change for DK :
Ivy -3 instead of -1
Lucario -2 instead of -1

The rest either I agree or I have no idea.

Why do you feel Roy does so well against Ivy? My experience against Roy is very limited but I have never really had issues with him. I do tend to trust your opinions and I would appreciate if you went into more detail about it.

 

[menotyou135]

Why do you feel Roy does so well against Ivy? My experience against Roy is very limited but I have never really had issues with him. I do tend to trust your opinions and I would appreciate if you went into more detail about it.

Ivy gets **** on by FE characters. Roy isn't quite as bad as marth, but both of them beat all of her options with disjoints, have super free edge guards on her, make it impossible for her to approach, combo the **** out of her often from zero to death, swat away razor leaf, and negate bair entirely through superior range. Also, her effectiveness at edgeguarding them is low in proportion to most of the cast that has an easy time edge guarding.

Basically, they win neutral game, they win the combo game, they win off stage game, and they win the kill game.

She has some options against roy and ike, but marth's speed mixed with his tipper allow him to just completely counter all of her options. She doesn't have options against marth in neutral (and to a lesser extent roy) and unlike most matchups that have this problem, she actually has far worse punishes. Imagine ganondorf vs fox, where ganondorf loses his ability to combo or finish kills. That is what the matchup is like. TBH, I would put it at

65-35

75-25

I know Ike is super hard too but I don't play Ike, or play against ikes as ivy so I don't know the matchup. I imagine D3 and Link are hard for Ivy too but I wouldn't know.

 

[TreK]

^ Idk if Marth is as bad as you make it sound. Like, sure I haven't won against a top Marth since 2.6b despite having three top Marths in my region, but I mostly blame it on my own lack of skill as a player. I've always thought it was 35-65 at worst.

As for Roy specifically, here are the main things imo :

While on the ground, we make it hard for him because of dtilt, the fact that his own best combo opener is a dtilt is a world of pain for Ivy, who's pretty damn weak to CC.
Then he's got that property of "almost" having shield pressure (most moves being between -4 and -8 on shield except for uair which is at +0 iirc), but against Ivy's 14 frames grab and 16 frames everything else that actually becomes safe shield pressure (Ivy's actual fastest oos option outside of rolls is nair, frame 9, but that's CCable and doesn't have enough range to punish anything that's been spaced somewhat properly). And Roy wasn't designed in a way that he relies on shield pressure to win, lol. That's just extra pain.
Finally, although he doesn't really have anything that would qualify as burst movement, Roy also has a very good dash dance, and that's cool to have vs Ivysaur. The dash is quick, but relatively short, and that's exactly what you want in this matchup because it allows you to slide in shield through razor leaf after a dash dance. Charizard would be an even better example of a character with the perfect dash dance for the Ivysaur match up. Typically, you want either that, or CF-like burst movement.

Then there's the other phases of play. Ivysaur edgeguards Roy pretty reliably, but he was never a character that needed to survive until 160% to function properly. The opposite isn't true though. Roy has one of the best moves against tethers : his dair. Either you strafe forward and it pops you up for a bair, or you strafe backwards and it semi-spikes you. The catch is, even if you strafe forward, that happens before you touch the ground. Strafing forward as Ivysaur is typically saying "I accept this punish as long as I get a chance to recover again", but that's only true if she gets to touch the ground.
Either way Ivysaur drifts to, she's offstage again, with no double jump and one less upB. Even with good DI, it's pretty freaking hard to recover from this. This is only mitigated by the fact that, well, Roy doesn't really need edgeguards to kill Ivy at 60% in the first place, lol.
As far as combos go, well, obviously Ivy has trouble because of the CC that I've already mentioned (tbf she has that trouble in almost all matchups, nothing new under the sun), but even if she lands one of her few antiCC combo starters (dash attack, fair, dtilt tipper, and grab, mostly), Roy's a fast faller, which means Ivy has to tech chase him more often than floatier characters. And when you have low travel speed + low attack speed like Ivysaur has, well, tech chasing gets noticeably less reliable. On the other hand, Roy just gets his normal BnBs on Ivysaur because that's what he does. At least he doesn't get full combos out of his combo breakers like Marth does LOL.
Another thing that's pretty tough on Ivysaur against fast fallers is that it gets much harder to set up her upB, solar beam and seed bombs. You just have much less time to act, so when your most powerful moves are all frame 22ish, well, they're just not going to hit as often. Unless Ivysaur manages to sneak in a bunch of uairs (which is possible, eh, but typically requires either a dtilt or a badly DI'd fair), she's just not gonna get those moves out.
I still keep my solar beams against Roy because the mere fact that I have it forces him to DI away, which means he's offstage faster. The benefits of being able to synthesis don't outweigh this imo.

There may be other things, idk. That's not one of the matchups I know the most about, by far. You really should ask other Ivies for confirmation.

Roy is still one of the most pleasant matchups to lose, for some reason. He doesn't make me salty like other sword characters do LOL.

 

[Poilu]

Here are some MU I would add or change for Lucario and why :

Char : 1 (instead of 0)
I can't say I don't know this MU. Like, 90% of all the games I've played are against chard since it's Zen who introduced me to the game and thus we played together a lot. I'm not found of playing online but still, I live in a different city than him, so I played him thanks to netplay, but almost with no one else. I also played a lot against Zefklop so I could discover another playstyle than Zen's.
With all this experience, I feel like we have the MU but not by far. Charizard's weight and Floatiness and size makes us all the easier to combo him. I can 0 to death Zen even though he knows the MU and the DIes and he is a pretty good player, on the other hand, it's true that he outranges me and in term of spacing, it's really hard to do anything thus the MU only a little on Lucario's favor.

DK : 2 (Instead of 1)
Well, DK isn't that bad, but he's a heavy character (no joke) and huge too. He just gets comboed day and night and has a weak recovery on top of that. He does outrange Lucario and can counter attack but it is not enough IMO. I don't have that much experience against DK, I've only played against TreK in that matter but it gave me a glimpse. When I see TreK play his DK against other opponents he seems to struggle quite less and to be able to do a lot more things.

GnW : -1 (-2 ?) (Instead of naught)
GnW is a pretty good character, almost no lag, comboes all day, good recovery ... It is pretty hard to attack him and even harder to combo him properly as he enjoyes smashing you to the face all day. I feel like my options are very limited and his aren't. He is mobile, he outranges Lucario, can kill at low % and survive quite long ... Well, I really don't feel at an advantage against him due to all that.

Ganon : 2 (Instead of naught)
See DK. I have yet to play against other Ganons than Rikkel's (And I mean Players who main Ganon, coz as TreK always says : "Everyone has a Ganon. It's just seldome ones main") but I feel we have the MU for the same reasons as we have the MU for DK.

Ivy : 1 (Instead of -3, which is a joke I hope)
Well, TreK and I often play each other and I read his previous posts, I think we feel the same about the MU. Ivy is hard to approach, has a decent spam that counters Lucario's, but in term of speed, priority, killing potential he lacks ressources. Overall, a favorable Match up for Lucario I'd say.

Marth : -3 (Instead of naught)
I don't think other Lucario players will say the same for that. It might be just because I lack experience against this character. Eitherway, Marth clearly has the MU. He can combo easily, one mistake and here comes the Ken combo and the death at 32% (Trust me, I've been there before) he outranges, has a hellish floatiness that prevents him from being comboed, he doesn't care about being spamed ... i don't know that much Marth player so this -3 might be too soon to say, but currently, it is how I feel about this hellish MU

Snake : 1 ( Instead of 0)
Another MU I have played often in tournament. Snakes has some options to do stuff, but he gets so much hit that his godlike recovery doesn't find that much uses in this MU. He still can do pretty well, thanks to his neutral B and all, and he can still kill Lucario pretty easily, but lose a little do to being killed quickly. It's not tremendous either, so a 1 is fair I guess.


For all the others MU I lack of knowledge to say anything and I will let my fellow Lucario players speak theirs feelings

 

[Saproling]

^ Idk if Marth is as bad as you make it sound. Like, sure I haven't won against a top Marth since 2.6b despite having three top Marths in my region, but I mostly blame it on my own lack of skill as a player. I've always thought it was 35-65 at worst.

As for Roy specifically, here are the main things imo :

While on the ground, we make it hard for him because of dtilt, the fact that his own best combo opener is a dtilt is a world of pain for Ivy, who's pretty damn weak to CC.
Then he's got that property of "almost" having shield pressure (most moves being between -4 and -8 on shield except for uair which is at +0 iirc), but against Ivy's 14 frames grab and 16 frames everything else that actually becomes safe shield pressure (Ivy's actual fastest oos option outside of rolls is nair, frame 9, but that's CCable and doesn't have enough range to punish anything that's been spaced somewhat properly). And Roy wasn't designed in a way that he relies on shield pressure to win, lol. That's just extra pain.
Finally, although he doesn't really have anything that would qualify as burst movement, Roy also has a very good dash dance, and that's cool to have vs Ivysaur. The dash is quick, but relatively short, and that's exactly what you want in this matchup because it allows you to slide in shield through razor leaf after a dash dance. Charizard would be an even better example of a character with the perfect dash dance for the Ivysaur match up. Typically, you want either that, or CF-like burst movement.

Then there's the other phases of play. Ivysaur edgeguards Roy pretty reliably, but he was never a character that needed to survive until 160% to function properly. The opposite isn't true though. Roy has one of the best moves against tethers : his dair. Either you strafe forward and it pops you up for a bair, or you strafe backwards and it semi-spikes you. The catch is, even if you strafe forward, that happens before you touch the ground. Strafing forward as Ivysaur is typically saying "I accept this punish as long as I get a chance to recover again", but that's only true if she gets to touch the ground.
Either way Ivysaur drifts to, she's offstage again, with no double jump and one less upB. Even with good DI, it's pretty freaking hard to recover from this. This is only mitigated by the fact that, well, Roy doesn't really need edgeguards to kill Ivy at 60% in the first place, lol.
As far as combos go, well, obviously Ivy has trouble because of the CC that I've already mentioned (tbf she has that trouble in almost all matchups, nothing new under the sun), but even if she lands one of her few antiCC combo starters (dash attack, fair, dtilt tipper, and grab, mostly), Roy's a fast faller, which means Ivy has to tech chase him more often than floatier characters. And when you have low travel speed + low attack speed like Ivysaur has, well, tech chasing gets noticeably less reliable. On the other hand, Roy just gets his normal BnBs on Ivysaur because that's what he does. At least he doesn't get full combos out of his combo breakers like Marth does LOL.
Another thing that's pretty tough on Ivysaur against fast fallers is that it gets much harder to set up her upB, solar beam and seed bombs. You just have much less time to act, so when your most powerful moves are all frame 22ish, well, they're just not going to hit as often. Unless Ivysaur manages to sneak in a bunch of uairs (which is possible, eh, but typically requires either a dtilt or a badly DI'd fair), she's just not gonna get those moves out.
I still keep my solar beams against Roy because the mere fact that I have it forces him to DI away, which means he's offstage faster. The benefits of being able to synthesis don't outweigh this imo.

There may be other things, idk. That's not one of the matchups I know the most about, by far. You really should ask other Ivies for confirmation.

Roy is still one of the most pleasant matchups to lose, for some reason. He doesn't make me salty like other sword characters do LOL.

Ill take your word on all this and just accept the people I have played in tourny were just sub par with Roy. Hes always felt way easier and less frustrating to me than Marth.In my first thoughts about him I forgot his weight and how long he can CC as well as how good his edge guarding is against her even if her recovery is by tether.I wanna play against a decent Roy to see how this plays out now.

Ivy gets **** on by FE characters. Roy isn't quite as bad as marth, but both of them beat all of her options with disjoints, have super free edge guards on her, make it impossible for her to approach, combo the **** out of her often from zero to death, swat away razor leaf, and negate bair entirely through superior range. Also, her effectiveness at edgeguarding them is low in proportion to most of the cast that has an easy time edge guarding.

Basically, they win neutral game, they win the combo game, they win off stage game, and they win the kill game.

She has some options against roy and ike, but marth's speed mixed with his tipper allow him to just completely counter all of her options. She doesn't have options against marth in neutral (and to a lesser extent roy) and unlike most matchups that have this problem, she actually has far worse punishes. Imagine ganondorf vs fox, where ganondorf loses his ability to combo or finish kills. That is what the matchup is like. TBH, I would put it at

65-35

75-25

I know Ike is super hard too but I don't play Ike, or play against ikes as ivy so I don't know the matchup. I imagine D3 and Link are hard for Ivy too but I wouldn't know.

Well I knew all this basically but I guess I was underestimating Roys neutral potential. I don't think Ivy has trouble with Link or D3 at best I think they would go even with her.But if wanna elaborate on why you would think so more ill listen. Ike maybe again I haven't had issues with Ike but I don't think I have played a really good one either.

 

[SoulPech]

Here's what I can contribute with Jiggs Matchups (I'll be updating as I go). Keep in mind:

50:50/45:50 means that this is a relatively even Matchup

60:40 means this is a disadvantage but as long as you play smart you should be fine

65:35 means that this is a hard matchup. You need to be on top of your game in order to do well

70:30 means you can do it, but there's proably someone else better you should use. (keep in mind that I have no one listed as this, so I feel Jiggs can hold her own with the entire cast)


60:40
- Jigglypuff can wall out and combo Bowser, as well as can setup rests very easily.
- Bowser's saving grace in this matchup is to get early kills and get rest punishes. A good rest punish can kill Jigglypuff at 45%.

50:50
- This matchup is essentially the same in Melee

50:50
- Jigglypuff can outduel Charizard in the air and can edguard the majority of charizard's recovery
- Charizard beats Jigglypuff on the ground and has potential to kill her early

35:65
- Jigglypuff can rest DDD at early percents and aerials waddle dees to limit DDD's options. Also, if she can get in he's combo food
- DDD is able to wall Puff out with Waddle Dees and aerials. He also has great ground options and has throw mixups

40:60
- Jigglypuff outshines in the air and can combo diddy off the stage
- Diddy is sheik, with a bettery recovery and a banana. Also has the tools to wall Jigglypuff out and can get early kills

60:40
- Matchup is similar to Melee, except DK has a slightly better recovery

50:50
- Matchup is similar to Melee

40:60
- Matchup is similar to Melee, except USmash is weaker, Fox's recovery is weaker, and uthrow is more difficult to combo into UAir


45:55
- Matchup is similar to Melee, except Ganon has a float


65:35
- Matchup is similar to Melee, except Ice Climbers has a much better recovery

40:60
- Jigglypuff has to work hard in this matchup to force a reaction from Ike to get in. Jigglypuff has many options to edgeguard Ike once he gets him off stage
- Ike rules on the stage with aerials and ground moves. Additionally, he has a 50-50 Fthrow-Backthrow + FAir mixup that can kill Jiggs around 90-100%

40:60
- Jigglypuff has a hard time, but once he gets in she's combo food. Also, Ivy has limited options offstage
- Ivy can wall out Puff better than Puff. Also has better ability to combo into kill setups

40:60
- Jigglypuff struggles in the air, but does better on the ground.
- Kirby has easier time to wall Jigglypuff out and can kill earlier

45:55
- Similar to Melee except Link has stronger ground moves

50:50
- Idk too much about this matchup honestly. I do know lucario's weight makes Jigglypuff easier to combo, but I also know Lucario can use aura to combo Jigglypuff, which the majority of the cast struggles to

45:55
- Jigglypuff has better aerial ability and if she can get in, lucas can get juggled. Also has an easy time edguarding Lucas.
- Lucas can combo Jigglypuff easily to certain percent (50-ish), but struggles to kill unless he hits a strong smash attack. Still a threat regardless

40:60
- Jigglypuff has to outspace Luigi and can not allow him to get in. Puff also has an easy time edguarding Luigi
- Luigi has an easy time to get in against Jigglypuff and can combo/kill early

50:50
- Matchup is same in Melee

45:55
- Matchup is same in Melee

50:50
- Jigglypuff walls out Metaknight with the majority of her moves against Metaknight. His weight/fall makes it easy for him to rest
- Metaknight rules the ground and can catch Puff out of rest setup situations. Smash attacks kill early and come out fast.

35:65
- One of Jigglypuff's hardest matchups. She needs to outpoke mewtwo and keep a medium distance. She also needs to be spot on with edguard situations
- Mewtwo has alot of tools to keep out jiggs (Nair floats, tail moves, shadow ball, etc.), combo jiggs (typically eat combos from 0-70%), and kill jiggs (Fair kills at around 9 and uthrow kills around 110%)

60:40
- Jigglypuff has as easy time edgeguarding GnW when he's off stage and has an easier time killing GnW early. Additionally, alot of GnW's aeries can be rest punished if GnW mispaces
- GnW has a better ground game and can catch Puff out of the air with Nair. Fair can kill early as well

60:40
- Simlar to Melee except His recovery is much better and moves have better priority. Most of his aerials can trade

?:?
- I have no idea....not enough experience

50:50
- Same as Melee, but I think the MU is better in this game...I think because of the different types of stages

40:60
- Same as Melee except has more options out of QA and BAir is better in this game

50:50
- Probably one of the more awkward matchups because Jigglypuff has to be aggressive in order to be effective. Pit is combo food at early %.
- Pit has arrows to wall out Puff and setup kills into BAir or his UpB

45:55
- Same as the Pit Matchup except ROB has more projectiles
- ROB has a more difficult time killing Puff than she did in 3.5. Majority of his moves are weaker, but still effective

55:45
- Similar in Melee except Roy has an additional way to recover and is a little stronger

60:40
- Same as Melee except she has ice options that can setup into early kills

55:45
- Same as Melee except Sheik can't dthrow setup for kills against Jigglypuff

60:40
- Puff can combo snake very easily and can lock snake into shield if he pulls grenade, set mines, etc. Can also edgeguard snake easily
- If snake can get in he can rack up damage and kills with c4 stick at early %

40:60
- Puff needs to stay close to sonic in order to be relevant in this matchup, but if Puff can every get sonic off stage, he should be dead
- Sonic runs around and does damage easily. Struggles to kill, but can create situations to setup for early kills around 80%

40:60
- Haven't played enough 3.6 squirtle yet but I do know that this was one of Puff's harder matchups in 3.6 (30:70) but I know his recovery options were alittle nerfed as well as some of his armor, so this seems to be a fair assessment

40:60
- Similar to Melee except TL has more recovery options


40:60
- One of the Matchups I know the best. Wario is essentially a better jigglypuff, but Puff has better aerial mobility. she has to play a bait game in order to beat Wario

50:50
- Similar to every spacie Matchup, except that his recovery is slightly better and his moves are normally lower priority

60:40
- Same as Melee except Yoshi has options OOS and better super armor

50:50
- Same as Melee except zelda's moves are better overall

35:65
- Puff needs has to approach diagonally in order to make anything happen. Also needs to be on point with edguarding
- ZSS is extremely fast and alot of her moves are high priority (especially her tilts). Additionally, can kill Puff quick with well timed Fair/Bair and has good juggle % on Puff.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Added. Thanks @ SoulPech !
There are some more conflicting views though.

@ MTL Kyle Gonna finish your Peach spread?

 

[Thor]

A couple MUs from me:

: Link's favor (I'll go with +2): Links generally agree Peach loses this MU. It wasn't THAT bad in Melee, and while Peach didn't get much, Link has a shiny new zair that loves interacting with Peach's float, as well as a stronger fair than in Melee. It used to be worse when boomerang was faster, but as it stands now, Link's increased mobility and huge number of tools allow him to camp Peach decently, and he doesn't exactly lose the close-quarters game either. Most Links I know seem to think Link annihilates Peach, but Link's recovery is definitely flawed and Peach is an edgeguarding queen [although Spin Attack has great hitboxes for disrupting the dair edgeguards that Peach players like, so if they're doing those they're doing it wrong].

: Ridiculously stage dependent, probably slightly Link's favor overall. I think Link may just straight-up lose this MU on Warioware, Yoshi's Melee, and maybe a few other stages [FoD, GHZ], but it's pretty obvious why Link wins it on Norfair and maybe Distant Planet - this matchup is ALL about zoning for Link, and on those stages it's incredibly easy. Link's dead offstage vs a competent Bowser [unless armor changed, armor through spin attack with bair (or go under it) and just do the command grab on the stupidly long zair endlag over and over and over]], so unless Link can AGT back onstage it's curtains, but Bowser doesn't have the greatest tools to get in, and Link's zair, bombs, boomerang, and fair do a fantastic job to keep him out. Link's dair has no trouble KOing Bowser which can be confirmed off those options or a grab, and if Link is patient enough, nothing wrong with uthrow. I don't think I grab enough personally in this MU, but I think if Red1 approached this MU it might be a lot better on small stages than how I usually see it played.

: Falcon wins, not too badly it would seem (+2 since +2 = 60:40 which I'm used to being +1 but w/e): If you think Link wins this, learn to use nair. Seriously, you can nair or fair to come through boomerangs with a hitbox out [I don't recommend fair unless Link is airborne and you think he won't nair]. You can also use all his other aerials [RAR bair for style anyone?], but the fact is, you shouldn't be getting hit with many boomerangs. Bombs are great but Falcon's fast enough to punish a lot of pulls or at least pressure Link, and considering he has knee, jab, and a great grab, he actually can pressure Link's shield as long as it's in very short bursts. Falcon grab game on Link is amazing for Falcon, although without 3.5 uthrow knees aren't as ridiculously free as they were. One of Link's problems is still that he's slower and basically has to play an anti-approach game, which is difficult to do Falcon's fantastic DD [and the fact that Link has to play RPS to determine whether to jab utilt or nair to shut out certain options, as stomps sometimes seem to go over jab, nair can space around utilt, and fair/bair can trade or beat nair if spaced properly], and another big issue is that if he survival DIs any non-lethal blow, it's usually just a double knee that then kills him.

: Fox wins (+3 based on the numbers outlined in the OP): Waveshining is godlike. Fox is faster, can outcamp Link [well, he has to spend a lot of time running away, but given the risks in approaching Fox, good Links won't blindly charge in, giving you extra lasers and percent], and Link is still very shine-spikeable (double down or do other things after). Link can gimp Fox effectively and his grab game is devastating, but Fox has a great grab game as well, and I already mentioned shine. Oh, and Fox has a frame 7 grab with 30 total frames that grabs people out of the air, not an 11 frame grab with over a full second in duration that can only grab grounded people with the exception of one tiny handbox. Fox can also nairplane through boomerang when at close range [less practical at long range but doable], so it's not safe to throw them up close [unlike with Falco's gun where as long as they don't go over it you're good]. Fox shine dair pressure is basically impossible for Link to deal with... he can shield drop but has to be on a platform, and his two fastest options [Oos, nair and spin attack, at 9 frames each] are too slow if Fox dair is still -5/-6 on shield. If people were consistently ISSDIing stuff it'd be less bad, but if Fox gets him in shine dair pressure on a not-platform, Link is forced to buffer something or pray you mess up.

Reminder to people trying to tell me that Hero of Time beat Mew2king: I said waveshining is godlike for a reason. If we had Hax or Leffen waveshining for M2K whenever he landed a shine, I firmly think the set would've looked very different game 1 (given how close it already was) and possibly a different winner games 2 and 3 [as much as I love Hero of Time's Link]. Converting off a frame 1 move into 20 more damage into your best KO move is bonkers, especially when Link not being at KO percents just means Fox then gets uairs and other juggles.

: Falco wins (I'll go with +2): Falco doesn't have Fox's strongest tool in the Fox Link MU (if Falco could waveshine Link the way Fox can it'd be +3 easily), but with the final reversion of Link's boomerang to Melee speed, if Falco stands back and spams a SHL, Link can't pull a bomb, throw a boomerang, shoot an arrow any meaningful distance, or generally do anything ranged to combat Falco between lasers. Hylian shield helps some, and Link's walk is fast relative to his run, but a good Falco will aim lasers over and under the shield. Powershielding [and well-timed ducking?] is an answer, but if Falco is shooting them from far enough away you need to powershield multiple in a row to make headway. Falco's shield pressure can actually be hit with spin attack out of shield [or nair] if Link gets the read on when the nair/dair is coming, although this isn't terribly practical (Link cannot interact with true multishinining except to buffer something, but he can interact with double shine wavedash down double shine etc. if he's quick immediately following the second shine). Falco combos the mess out of Link, but Link can do the same, and Falco is even more gimpable than Fox [and fortunately Falco's best gimping tools are moderately effective on Link, but not devastingly so, to the point where Link isn't always 100% dead offstage]. I'm not positive, but I haven't had issues teching dair when I do a reel-in on tether because I believe the spike angle launches me into the stage when dair is done from the ledge, which is quite convenient [although tether is still extremely punishable by just getting onstage and dsmashing...].

Link wins (+1/+2) I could give the long explanation, but I'll give the conclusions. Link wins this in Melee, and as in Link outcamps Samus [Link bombs are great and you can nair through missiles], so Samus has to approach. Link has all the KO tools, and now zair makes it worse for Samus, being a great way to get her into a free uair or up in the air for juggles [completely safe on shield when spaced too]. Samus grab is still bad so Link can shield a lot more than in most MUs [his bad OoS options are made mostly irrelevant], and Link has the tools to gimp Samus (especially with buffed arrows), while Samus's usual tools for gimping aren't terribly effective [though she still has solid options that mean Link shouldn't be recovering the majority of the time, but they're in general less effective options, which is why they aren't used in most other MUs]. I'll admit I'm not fully sure how useful Ice mode is in the matchup, or crawl attack [and they seem decent], but Samus being forced to approach someone with a ridiculous uair for juggling, strong tools to KO her, and a sword is a losing combination [as ice mode doesn't really help her get in, and crawl attack is punishable on shield (or resets to neutral) and somewhat obvious].

These are ones I feel relatively confident posting about, based on discussion about Link MUs elsewhere and based on how stuff went down in Melee and what's changed between here and there.

 

[Hylian]

IC's:

Why am I playing this character again?:
Toon Link, Ivysaur, Peach

Hey I can do this:
Everyone not mentioned

Free winz:
Bowser

 

[FlashingFire]

Changes I would make to the Snake section:

vs
Change 3 to 1 (or maybe 2)
Bowser is surprisingly good at making Snake cry the moment he has Snake above him. Long-range aerials and tilts make landing or recovering as Snake a serious ordeal. Snake still combos the mess out of Bowser and should do at least 60% off of a single grab, but Bowser is one of the few characters that can take more punishment than Snake, meaning Snake has to extend his combos/edgeguards for a long time or net a spike to seal the deal. Bowser can eat trades pretty well too.

vs
Change -2 to 0
I remember asking Junebug in his AMA about the Snake/Diddy matchup, and he agreed that the matchup was quite even. Diddy wins neutral of course and can rack up damage effectively, but can have trouble KOing, whereas Snake's lethal punish game on a fastfaller like Diddy and myriad edgeguarding options against Diddy's Up-B even the odds.

vs
Change -1 to +1
Game&Watch is largely an anti-approach character that stuffs a lot of traditional spacing methods with his lasting disjoints. Snake doesn't really play the game that G&W thrives off of, though - he beats approaches pretty handily himself with grenades and strong OoS options, and doesn't need to go on the offensive much. Snake also has a field day comboing the paperweight, netting early kills with C4 setups and Uthrow > Fair. Recovering is admittedly quite hard as Snake, but if you go high you can often force a lot of trades that favor the much heavier Snake.

vs
Change -1 to 0
This MU is a huge combofest. Lucas likes to go in and gets rewarded if he does it right, but he gets messed up if his execution is imperfect or predictable. Both characters get great punishes off of grabs and stray hits. I don't see either character having much of an advantage over the other.

vs
Change -1 to -2
Needles destroy Snake when used properly. It's really sad. They can force approaches, negate traps, and lead into combos, all from a safe distance or from the air. Also Sheik can transform to remove C4 while still having an advantageous MU as Zelda, and then transform back after getting a solid hit in neutral.

vs
Change -1 to 0
I've played against Dad and a fair number of other Squirtles. Yeah, Squirtle runs circles around Snake in neutral, but he just has to work soooo hard to actually take a stock. Snake capitalizes harder off of openings, has effective CC options, can punish Side-B on shield (with Up-B), and benefits from trades.

vs
Change -1 to +1
I have no idea what makes anyone think this matchup is bad for Snake. Snake has superior range, similar ground mobility, and a peculiar toolset that works well against Wario's peculiar toolset (e.g. Cypher makes Wario's Dair bounce off a recovering Snake harmlessly). I also have a fair bit of experience playing against Strong Bad - I can take games off of his Wario in tournament despite him being the better overall player.

 

[Ripple]

here's all of DDD's MUs as of 3.6b

-4

-3

-2

-1

=

+1

+2

+3


don't know or

 

[Saproling]

Updated my list after thinking it over the last week and asking around.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Updated with the recent posts.
Wow @ D3 though. Chart's almost filled, yay!

 

[FlashingFire]

Updated with the recent posts.
Wow @ D3 though. Chart's almost filled, yay!

Looking at the chart, I see that some of my suggestions for Snake MUs were implemented (Bowser, Gdubs, Lucas), but not all (Diddy, Sheik, Squirtle, Wario). Is there a method to how you select which changes to make?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Looking at the chart, I see that some of my suggestions for Snake MUs were implemented (Bowser, Gdubs, Lucas), but not all (Diddy, Sheik, Squirtle, Wario). Is there a method to how you select which changes to make?

Whoops. I missed Snake. Thanks for reminding me.
Edit: If it doesn't match your post then the other Snakes/character's vote is influencing it.

 

[Poilu]

It would have been nice to insertt a commentary for each MU for DDD, I was curious, especially for the Ivy one (-4 ? o.o)

 

[MTL Kyle]

Added. Thanks @ SoulPech !
There are some more conflicting views though.

@ MTL Kyle Gonna finish your Peach spread?

Maybe.
Or I will put the matchups I know at least.

You still should ask reputable people in the community to write those.

 

[kinje]

here's all of DDD's MUs as of 3.6b

-4

-3

-2

-1

=

+1

+2

+3


don't know or

I'd 100% agree with all of this with the exception of a few placements. The only thing I'd strongly disagree with, though, is Ganon's positioning. I'd argue he's one of the few characters we have an advantage against in neutral (on most stages) and can gimp relatively easily. Only flaw might be that he has really solid punishes on us if we do lose neutral, as we're super fat and could easily take like 60+ damage any time he gets a grab. But I really see any reasons we'd ever be forced to let that happen. Also, Sheik lost her throw mix-ups, but she still has needles and double-jump bair.
Mine'd look like:


-4

-3

-2

-1

=

+1

+2

It would have been nice to insertt a commentary for each MU for DDD, I was curious, especially for the Ivy one (-4 ? o.o)

Ivy has something to beat out all of Dedede's tools in neutral, challenges him in terms of range, can combo him super hard, has a ton of really great options to edgeguard Dedede's non-sweetspottable recovery, and can charge solar beam and heal by using aerials on waddles.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

You guys may wanna talk out that Ganon MU. Possibly some Ganons can add their input also.

 

[menotyou135]

I have a ganon. I can make one.

 

[menotyou135]

Ganon matchups. He is my secondary so take most of these with a grain of salt.

-3
Might just be -2, but this matchup is infamous for being rough.

-2
Lasers wreck ganon and he wrecks ganon on small stages, but still winnable. Might be -1.
Ganon has no answer to projectile spam, can be juggled forever and has a hard time against the tether recovery
Can just runaway laser and shine gimps ganon super easy
Basically sheik that can wall of pain you and isn't as free, but dies easier
Squirtle is too short to grab or jab, combos the hell out of ganon, and can get in super easy. Might be -3


-1
Gets gimped hard and has trouble approaching but also edge guards snake better than anybody else
Basically just a faster, better ganon
Ganon doesn't have a real answer to banana and diddy edge guards him way too easy
Ganon can't approach olimar so he gets free powered up pikmin.
Not as bad as link. Easier to edgeguard and kill.
Neutral and recovery game isn't as hard as the other species but still is hard.

0

Not too sure of this one
Ganon gets comboed hard, but lucario has a hard time getting in

+1

Not too sure about this, but ganon's arms beat the sword and he punishes harder than marth. Might be even.
Everything ganon hits them with separates them
Fair outranges bair and ganon kils early but ganon has a lot of laggy stuff that can be rested, or comboed into rest
Was pretty even in melee, but ganon has much better tools now. Not completely sure about this.
Sonic can win if he gets in, but ganon's long ass arms make that almost impossible if the ganon plays smart.

+2
Basically marth that is easier to kill and gets walled out harder than marth. Might not actually be this bad but it is at least +1

+3
Bowser can't deal with grabs and side B wrecks him, especially when you tech chase. Also Chain grabs him for a while.

No Idea:

 

[EmptySky00]

I'll just write about the ones I've played enough to have at least a moderate understanding of. I'm not on my own computer because the hard drive crashed and it's late so I don't really have the time to format and make this look pretty. Sorry.

Spoiler

Ike: 0 or +1. Ike punishes incredibly hard if he can get in, but he has no defensive options. Link's goal in this matchup is to keep him struggling to push through to get his punish game rolling. Ike doesn't really have a neutral at all outside of QD, so Link can completely dominate him there. He can also put Ike into bad positions that he doesn't have the tools to escape from (the patented Up Air Forever combo) and keep him there until he dies. Conversely Ike can just obliterate Link from a grab. So it's really just a toss up. If I had to give the slight edge to someone it would be Link because of the neutral game. Ike punishes a bit harder than Link can punish him but Link is a lot better in neutral.

GnW: +2. Game and Watch struggles to get in on Link and Link has a very good punish game on him. He's yet another character that can punish Link very well, but Link has the tools to prevent that and can make it a real headache for GnW to get anything started. Game and Watch also has a weight that facilitates boomerang conversions and the like. Dthrow Dair utterly slays him around 100 or so if you land a grab. Fair obliterates him. He dies pretty early from Uair and doesn't have a good way to contest it. His up B escape option isn't really that great against Link because Link has disjoint to prevent getting thrown out of his conversion, and GnW doesn't really want to be above Link where his descent is perpetually halted by Uair.

Zelda: +2. Zelda has no real way to get in on Link and Link can exploit this in neutral until the cows find their GPS and head homeward. She loses to opponents that don't have to interact with her as her entire character falls apart when the opponent doesn't have to play into her punishment game. Nayru's does virtually nothing against Link's projectiles; bombs usually hit the ground before doing anything meaningful when reflected and boomerang can be thrown in angles that make reflecting it useless, not to mention she's also stuck in endlag so she can't net anything off of it anyway. This is obviously provided she uses it grounded and doesn't land cancel, but using SH Nayru's has its own set of problems and nets similar dividends of nothing in the MU. She too has no good way to get down past Link's Uair and her fall speed makes her die early to it. Din's does absolutely nothing in the camping war against Link (or anyone for that matter). As long as Link doesn't plant his face into stray kicks he should be fine.

Bowser: +2 or +3. This seems like an obvious assumption. Of course the projectile character beats Bowser, what else is new? This is actually a lot on speculation, as I believed Bowser had the tools to deal with this MU in 3.5. His punishment game on Link is/was extremely strong thanks to his edgeguarding with Nair (Link's up B could never get past it and if he recovered high he got effed up). Of course, Link could mitigate this with good bomb placement on the ledge, but Bowser could play around that and still net the kill. He also had decent tools for getting around Link's projectile game and closing off space with his large hitboxes. He could dash attack a jump for Zair or Boomerang on reaction, effectively cutting off those options if he was ready for them. I still feel like Link held the advantage, but it didn't feel as lopsided as one would expect from a first glance. I don't know how much worse this got for him, but as a start he has literally no answer to Uair strings now that his Nair's armor was weakened significantly, so Link can probably just grab and put him in the air then go to town watching him bounce up and fall down.

Marth: 0. I think a lot of people's opinions about this MU come from urban legends that Link soft countered Marth in Melee. That being said, I've played this MU on both sides. With Link it feels extremely volatile, like he can randomly kill you any second thanks to his punish game, and his punish game on Link is very strong indeed. Link should almost never recover against Marth if he knows how to edgeguard, and once Marth has Link cornered he can probably net a kill. On the Marth side, Projectiles in neutral can be really hard to deal with and I find that I end up getting hit a lot if I try to force my way in since dash dancing is effectively shut off as an option if Link is in a position to throw things. However, I was able to absolutely destroy Link on contact if he couldn't keep me out. Link also has the ability to Uair Marth forever thanks to his lack of options to combat opponents from a disadvantaged position. What, you think I think Uair is good? You're right. in the end, I think this MU is roughly even. It can be difficult on both sides for different reasons and I wouldn't particularly be looking forward to playing it on either end.

Roy: +2. Link has a much better combo game on Roy and Roy's worse neutral makes it much easier to keep him out. Also, Roy's edgeguarding game isn't as strong as Marth's. The tradeoff is obviously that he can just outright convert into kill options, but Link has the tools to prevent that from happening and overall from experience this leads to Link living a fair bit longer against Roy. Roy, like everyone else I guess, has a strong combo game on Link, but Link has Uair and Australian Frisbees.

Ivysaur: +2. I don't particularly have a ton of insight into this matchup, but I've played solid Ivysaurs before and it felt like it was in my favor. Link doesn't have to play into Ivysaur's defensive walling options such as Bair and razor leaf and whatever else. She also gets punished pretty hard by Link and I don't really see the same on the other end. That's basically all I have to say.

Sheik: -3. I don't know how the throw changes would affect this, but I'm just sticking with this. This is traditionally one of Link's hardest matchups. Her punish game is extremely strong on Link and she can just get him offstage and slaughter him. Link's punish game on her isn't even close to being in the same league and projectiles aren't really amazing against her. Regardless, when playing against Sheik you have to exploit her weak neutral game and punish as hard as possible when you get her and don't drop position because you may be dead before you get it back. It's extremely hard to escape from her once she gets in and she has good defensive options. It's rough.

Lucario: -3. This isn't from a ton of experience, but I find it very hard to win neutral against this character, and his punishment game on me is astounding. He can exploit Link's lack of defensive options to its fullest. That being said, Link has a solid punishment game on him as well thanks to his overall poor air physics (fall speed, mobility, etc.) which lets Link... You guessed it.. Uair him forever. But this requires actually getting him in the first place which can be very difficult. Projectiles don't seem particularly strong against him. I would assume you would want to utilize superior disjoint to beat him out in some way to start a conversion.

Fox: -3. Link can absolutely not play neutral against this character. So he's in the same boat as basically everyone else. Once Fox gets position on you it's incredibly hard to get him off of you. He can just start pressure and keep it until he gets the kill. If Link can get him to around 40%, he has a pretty disgusting combo game on Fox, but a lot of his best conversions require a grab which we all know is not going to happen often or are soft to CC such as with dash attack. If you manage to actually catch Fox, then you absolutely have to kill him. The only way to beat this character is to win the punish game and win it hard. It also doesn't help that Link can't even begin to have the speed to keep up with this character.

Falco: -3. Once again Link can't play neutral against this character so it forces him to approach Falco and play right into his pressure game. Overall you want to set up the same conversion options that you use against the other spacies with dash attack, Dsmash, Uthrow, or the like then take it as far as possible, preferably into a kill. He's really just a difficult character to fight for Link. The only redeeming part of these MU's is that Link has a good punish game on them.

Mario: -1. Pills are hard to deal with in neutral and make Link's projectile game more lackluster. Link can Nair through pulls but that leaves him open to all sorts of punishment if the Mario plays it correctly. Mario also has a good punish game on Link and is pretty hard to kill. He too however has difficulty getting down from juggles.

Luigi: 0?. I honestly don't know how to quantify this matchup. No offense to Luigi players, but I absolutely hate playing the game against this character. It's one of the most miserable and frustrating experiences involving this game I have ever experienced, perhaps mostly due to my inability to play it correctly. I feel like I can't convert on him meaningfully but his punishment game is a lot stronger than mine. His invincible ledge drop Bair eats my recovery but I can't edgeguard him. The entire experience feels like I'm grinding my head into a wall. The redeemable part on Link's side is that Luigi doesn't like disjoint so you can make neutral difficult for him. Nevertheless even when I'm playing this MU well, I feel like when I lose it's because I lose the punishment game. And that's really what it comes down to; punishment feels weak on him outside of Uair strings which is prone to a lot of escape opportunities and is miserable to set up in neutral. Also, him WD'ing in shield towards you can lead into up B OoS and a death at around 80 or so. This isn't to berate the character or say Link loses or anything, I just don't know what to make of the MU, but I'm almost certain it's even.

Meta Knight: -2. He's Small, Fast, Everything, All you ever wanted, etc. I have a hard time catching him and once he gets me it feels like I can never get away from him until I'm dead. If he gets a grab I just get trapped in a choke hold until I'm being edgeguarded. His small size also makes him difficult to hit out of his movement. His combo weight is pretty bad though, so winning lies in exploiting that.

Yoshi: +2. I think that the key to winning against characters whose moves always win interactions is to not fight them. Lo' and behold, Link has the tools to not actually engage Yoshi and to force him to play into his attacks. Don't directly confront the character because your moves will just lose then you'll explode. Do that and you'll be fine.

Samus: +1. Overall a miserable MU on both sides. Very campy, time-consuming, frustrating, and grindy. I think the thing that gives Link the edge in this is that he can juggle her forever and she can't really escape. Also, her lack of OoS options with her terrible grab makes it a lot easier for Link to pressure her safely. Link doesn't really have to worry about up B OoS because of his disjoints. Just get her into the air and keep hitting her until she dies. Don't play into her CC game. Don't run into missiles. Etc. Nair beats missiles, Zair beats missiles, and so on.

Peach: +1. Boomerang stuffs her air approaches and makes it extremely hard for her to get in or gain footing once she loses it. I played against Hanky Panky and Umbreon in this MU. Hanky Panky bodied me with tournament nerve johns and Umbreon had trouble with me. So I don't know how to interpret it. If you can stuff her approaches and beat her out like that it's probably in Link's favor.

Ganondorf: +2. Only Link can defeat the etc. Basically keep him outside of a range in which he's threatening. Don't run into his attacks because you're disrespecting them. Punish hard. He just folds in neutral.

King DeDeDe: +2. I don't know how this character is supposed to get in to do anything against Link, and Link can convert super hard against him with boomerang or Zair. He can edgeguard really well, but I've no idea how he's supposed to get in to set those up. He's just a big target. Don't play into his CC or shield grab and you should be fine I think.

Kirby: +2. I don't enjoy this MU or this character. Optimal play of the MU involves hardcore camping and throwing **** forever and trying to keep him staggered until he dies. If you actually engage him you're opening yourself to a lot of nonsense, so the advantage once again lies in your ability to not do that.

Toon Link: -1. Pick a better character. Play the mirror. TL's just an overall stronger character than Link. Even the advantage we had over him in boomerang has been watered down slightly. His bombs are infinitely better, his grab is infinitely better because he has the movement to facilitate it and has really strong conversions, and his attacks in general tend to be better.

Captain Falcon: -2. He has a very strong punishment game on us and it's hard to keep him out. A single hit can lead to lethal conversions. It's a scary matchup. We do have a good punish game on him at mid percents, but winning in neutral if he's playing it correctly is a daunting task.

And that's all I can think of for now. It's almost 4 and I need to be up in a few hours. If anyone has any problems with it, I'm sorry. I'm not good at quantifying MU's. I prefer to articulate my experiences and analyze the interactions from both sides. Even then, I could be off base. But I try. Then I assign a number to it without trying to blow it out of proportion. Because I hate that.

 

[PajamasM]

You put falco as -2 against ganon on the spreadsheet, I'm no expert on the matchup but that just doesn't quite seem right. Probably meant +2?

Might as well also throw in my 2 cents.

40:60
Diddy Kong seems to be able to dominate the neutral vs. Ivy thanks to just the better movement and bananas that Ivy can't deal with as well as a lot of other characters, and the punish game is way better for diddy than for Ivy. Not to mention that Diddy's fair is able to actually compete with Ivy's range. But it is a pretty easy edgeguard for Ivy, so its not all impossible. Also, Junebug and Seagull I remember saying that this was pretty easy for Diddy on a few different occasions.

45:55
Kirby may have some problems with the range of Ivy's moves in neutral, but ultimately it is a lot harder for Ivy to get more than some stray hits in, while Kirby can punish Ivy really hard with techchases, fairs, and up-tilts that Ivy seems to be at the perfect combo weight for. Ivy also can't really edgeguard Kirby to the same degree which she can edgeguard so many other characters, while Kirby has no problems guarding Ivy with either a bair, dair, or nair as Ivy is hanging below Kirby, or a fair/hammer as she reels in. It is also worth mentioning that Kirby gets a free solarbeam when she inhales Ivy, so that's a thing. But Ivy does beat Kirby in neutral just due to the sheer range of all her moves. It kind of reminds me of the Sheik:Marth MU in melee in a way.

50:50
This reminds me a lot of the Marth:Falcon MU in melee, as Ivy seems to have the range and the better neutral, edgeguards, and a really good juggle game. Meanwhile Falcon has the vastly superior combo and punish game, as well as an improved recovery from melee. What really makes this MU different however, is Ivy has Razor Leaf to help combat dash-dance, and an easier time edgeguarding compared to Marth. However, Captain Falcon has a really harsh punish game on Ivy's tether with either an uair or fair on the reel-in for combos/resetting the edgeguard respectively. Falcon also manages to combo Ivy even harder than almost any other characterit feels to me.

60:40
G&W just seems to have trouble against any characters that can outrange all of his moves, and Ivy is no exception. Ivy can pretty much stuff any approaches by G&W with bair, and has an incredibly easy edgeguard. G&W isn't completely without tools, as the punish game on Ivy is really strong, and the SH double bacon is useful in neutral, however the edgeguard is slightly lacking vs. Ivy. G&W can also Cc Dtilt Ivy if he doesn't space his approaches properly, which can lead to a prety big combo, but if the Ivy plays it safe and spaces properly, there isn't too much G&W can do