Project M Community MU Chart [αlpha]

[AuraMaudeGone]

Updated.
Kinda need some input for these chars:

 

[menotyou135]

Link should almost never recover against Marth if he knows how to edgeguard, and once Marth has Link cornered he can probably net a kill.

I am calling BS. My main practice partner is a link and we have learned each other's characters in reverse so that we can play the matchup from each other's perspective.

If you use Up B only to recover you are right. However, the chain is not nearly as easy for marth to cover. If he predicts it and holds ledge, you can use AGT bombs and up B to get back to the stage and if the doesn't grab edge, you can use the chain freely. It's called a mixup, and it is something that you can easily react to. That isn't even mentioning stalling your recovery with the bomb throw up B to try to recover high or using AGT>Airdodge

If you can't recover against marth, you need to watch some top level links. Watching players like Hero of Time. He has no issue recovering against marth.

Links that ONLY up B or ONLY chain are easy as hell to beat because there are counterplays to those things, but any link with a decent amount of awareness can tell "Oh, he is holding ledge. Better not tether" or "Oh, he is standing on stage at fsmash/dtilt/counter range, better not up B." If you can't do that, you need to work on the matchup because you are playing it wrong. Try playing as marth against a friend so that you can see exactly what he can and cannot do to your character.

BTW, I showed said friend your post about recovering and he laughed out loud.

 

[EmptySky00]

I am calling BS. My main practice partner is a link and we have learned each other's characters in reverse so that we can play the matchup from each other's perspective.

If you use Up B only to recover you are right. However, the chain is not nearly as easy for marth to cover. If he predicts it and holds ledge, you can use AGT bombs and up B to get back to the stage and if the doesn't grab edge, you can use the chain freely. It's called a mixup, and it is something that you can easily react to. That isn't even mentioning stalling your recovery with the bomb throw up B to try to recover high or using AGT>Airdodge

If you can't recover against marth, you need to watch some top level links. Watching players like Hero of Time. He has no issue recovering against marth.

Links that ONLY up B or ONLY chain are easy as hell to beat because there are counterplays to those things, but any link with a decent amount of awareness can tell "Oh, he is holding ledge. Better not tether" or "Oh, he is standing on stage at fsmash/dtilt/counter range, better not up B." If you can't do that, you need to work on the matchup because you are playing it wrong. Try playing as marth against a friend so that you can see exactly what he can and cannot do to your character.

BTW, I showed said friend your post about recovering and he laughed out loud.

Drop down bair harder. Grab ledge better. Zair is pretty ****ing slow. I have absolutely no issue destroying Link's recovery. Your own shortcomings do not dictate the facts of the MU. Don't ****ing come at me because you disagree with it. I only contributed to this **** because I was asked to not because I wanted to be attacked by a ****ing cesspool of salty randoms. **** off until you can approach disagreements in a civil manner. Until that point, I hold no obligation to be civil back or even recognize your argument.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Hey hey. Keep it civil in here.

 

[menotyou135]

Drop down bair harder. Grab ledge better. Zair is pretty ****ing slow. I have absolutely no issue destroying Link's recovery. Your own shortcomings do not dictate the facts of the MU. Don't ****ing come at me because you disagree with it. I only contributed to this **** because I was asked to not because I wanted to be attacked by a ****ing cesspool of salty randoms. **** off until you can approach disagreements in a civil manner. Until that point, I hold no obligation to be civil back or even recognize your argument.

I was being civil. You aren't

My post didn't include any cursing, comments on your character, or derogatory language aimed at you. The worst thing I said to you was that my link partner laughed at your comment, which isn't even my opinion. I probably shouldn't have done that and I apologize. The seccond worst thing I said was that I was calling BS on your edgeguarding statement followed by reasons why I thought so, which is also not an attack on you.

Rather than addressing any of my points, you reverted to an ad hominem attack claiming that my arguments are invalid because of my "shortcomings" and that I am "a salty random". You were the one not being civil. Rather than talking about the points you talked about me because you misinterpreted my dissenting opinion as an attack when anybody should be able to easily tell it wasn't.

Every one of my paragraphs has to do with countering your opinion except for the last one which I just apologized for. Having an opinion other than yours is not an attack on you.

Please quote the part of my post where I personally attacked you. I am interested. Even the part I apologized for wasn't even my view and thus was not a personal attack.

 

[menotyou135]

Simplified form of what just happened:

Me: I don't agree that links recovery is easy to edgeguard and this is why

You: You suck and that is why link is easy to edguard.

Which one is civil?

 

[PeanutReaper486]

Neither of you are civil. ヽ( ͡°╭͜ʖ╮͡° )ﾉ

Back to the discussion. Link vs Marth = Even.

Neutral is hell for Marth, Link can up-air Marth fahdayz, Marth can combo Link rather easily, yada yada yada.

It's a slobberknocker, and prolly one of my least favored matchups.

 

[Thor]

Link isn't always dead vs Marth offstage, but it's very hard to get back vs a competent Marth. I think a lot of it relies on how well you mix it up and where you start [getting back from an fsmash you DI perfectly, where you have the potential to AGT and just land onstage, is MUCH easier than being forced to go low or up+B onstage, since then the low mixup is a lot harder to cover carefully].

I disagree with Empty on a few MUs, that part aside:

Lucario: Really doesn't feel -3, but I have no idea how to quantify it. Mostly neutral feels like a constant silly battle of baiting down+B and punishing... because Lucario down+B has at least 12 frames of startup and no I-frames on cancel, if you spin attack or SH nair one when it's incoming, Lucario will ALWAYS be hit, and it's a strong hit or a semi-spike on spin attack, neither of which are punishable beyond CC percents. Link can do retreating boomerangs to bait side+b and fsmash Lucario for doing so, and at close range, spacing nairs is hard for Lucario to get through. We can gimp Lucario decently, if not fantastically, and our CC game at low percentages is usually strong enough to stop him from converting at zero. It also doesn't hurt that Link can combo the mess out of Lucario.

I feel like this is another case of people not knowing how to neutral game against Lucario and pretending he some great neutral. He really doesn't - it's not the worst, but it's not terribly good. I honestly do not believe this is a -3 MU though. I think Lucario mains have said in 3.5 it was Link favored [or at least people complaining about how to get through Link's stuff], and Link mains said it was Lucario favored [again, people unsure of how to deal with Lucario's down+b], so I think nailing this one down at even, and waiting for someone to explain exactly how neutral should be working and what should be going on for both chars would be useful [IPK vs Hero of Time happening would be useful for watching it at the highest level, but that sadly didn't happen at the recent tournament].

Falco: I said it was +2 earlier for a reason. Powershield his lasers and half his neutral is gone - and unlike Fox, Falco is not very fast [Link and Falco have similar speeds]. We have the nair to combat his and can do a decent job spacing with fair as long as we can make lasers not a threat [which is very hard to do, no question there]. Falco's shield pressure is also not truly effective against Link, outside of multishining - frustrating yes, but Link can respond offensively, a tremendous upgrade over dealing with Fox drillshine pressure.

Ganondorf: I might be biased by playing a not-bad Ganon main, but I feel like this MU is only +1 Link, and that Link is even or loses on a few stages [notably Yoshi's]. Ganondorf's incredible waveland is fantastic for moving around platforms and avoiding projectiles, and Ganondorf can convert a ridiculous amount off of any move [except MAYBE jab if you don't shield and let him grab you], because he will push you back and make projectiles very unsafe. Link can land several blows in neutral and potentially be alright, but Ganon only needs a single touch [outside of MAYBE a non-CC'd jab] to gain an upper hand that he can often press into a stock. He can also chaingrab Link to 50% with platforms to save Link and higher without, and his gimps on Link can be quite devastating [yay tipman...]. It often seems that the battle comes down to throwing out projectiles when it's safe, and attempting to outspace each other with fair or nair whenever Ganon corners you. Cape is technically a reflector as well [and was buffed in 3.6 beta I believe], so he can reflect a boomerang and if you don't already have a bomb in hand, he can and will close the gap quickly.

IDK if this MU is wrong, but I'm gonna point out two things you missed that are often important in the Mario MU: zair goes through fireballs and can still hit Mario [and zair spaced is safe on shield due to spacing, even though it's -9 Mario can't punish that], and Mario can CG Link at low percents [to about 40?). I think both characters gimp each other well, although gimping Mario is harder for Link than vice versa.

 

[PeanutReaper486]

Ganondorf: I might be biased by playing a not-bad Ganon main, but I feel like this MU is only +1 Link, and that Link is even or loses on a few stages [notably Yoshi's]. Ganondorf's incredible waveland is fantastic for moving around platforms and avoiding projectiles, and Ganondorf can convert a ridiculous amount off of any move [except MAYBE jab if you don't shield and let him grab you], because he will push you back and make projectiles very unsafe. Link can land several blows in neutral and potentially be alright, but Ganon only needs a single touch [outside of MAYBE a non-CC'd jab] to gain an upper hand that he can often press into a stock. He can also chaingrab Link to 50% with platforms to save Link and higher without, and his gimps on Link can be quite devastating [yay tipman...]. It often seems that the battle comes down to throwing out projectiles when it's safe, and attempting to outspace each other with fair or nair whenever Ganon corners you. Cape is technically a reflector as well [and was buffed in 3.6 beta I believe], so he can reflect a boomerang and if you don't already have a bomb in hand, he can and will close the gap quickly.

Definitely agree with +1. Have you guys even played a Ganon worth their salt?

"Just throw projectiles. Free win." It's so much harder than that. A proper ganon can deal with that really easily.

Link works super hard to tack on 40%, then he hits you twice and you're offstage. If you can't recover high, then your upB is about to get stomped. Granted when Ganon's offstage, he'll be begging to get back. Then he flubs an upB or something and now it's a sideB and wheeee you're both in the blastzone.

 

[Swigo]

I think the Kirby-Wolf matchup is either even or +1 in Kirby's favor, Wolf can camp with lasers and force Kirby to approach, but kirby can duck under a lot of those, and Wolf gets edguarded ridiculously easy by Kirby, and his punish game isn't as strong cause Kirby's pretty floaty. This is just my opinion though, and I'm by no means an expert so if somebody else thinks otherwise feel free to speak up

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Updated Pikachu's and Mario's spreads. Thanks Pika boards! Might be able to move on to the next phase soon.

 

[PlateProp]

vs
65 : 35
Hard counter.
Squirtle approaches are pretty linear and he suffers a little bit of the Pikachu syndrome (stubby arms, no decent ground options, aerials get ****ed by CC DSmash), even worse when all his other unconventional options are covered by basic stuff.
Did he Withdraw ? DSmash, byebye armor and turtle.
Did he jump and did whatever ? Anti air Nair.

This is only accurate for a Squirtle who doesn't use water gun and smart grounded bubble. Peach has no way to force Squirtle to approach because he can just water gun turnips out of the air then catch them, giving him access to his grounded glide toss (which covers the length of almost every stage). SHWG will also beat Dsmash because they arc over the hitboxes into Peach's hurtboxes. And if the Squirtle baits out a dsmash, they can punish with their own dsmash since it has enough disjoint to go through Peach's dsmash. As for nair, Squirtle just has to stick to the ground. Wavedash back >Bubble will shoot Peach away, she cant go high enough to avoid it without not being able to hit nair unless they try to drop down on the Squirtle (Which would be obvious, meaning Squirtle can just Wavedash away or contest it by charging up water gun).

Both characters can kill one another if they get their hands on the other, but this MU is not a hard counter. Squirtle just has to play closer to the ground, very similar to how Marth has to stick to the ground more when playing against Sheik. This MU is 55:45 in Peach's favor at worst, but most likely even.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Both characters can kill one another if they get their hands on the other, but this MU is not a hard counter.

I disagree with you entirely.

 

[PlateProp]

I disagree with you entirely.

You've never played a squirtle that was even semi decent at the character then

 

[Zmorris94]

What's the matchup like for marth vs Mario?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

What's the matchup like for marth vs Mario?

The chart reports it's in Marth's advantage, but if you want a in depth explanation as to why, consult either the Mario or Marth boards.

 

[Farquaad]

You've never played a squirtle that was even semi decent at the character then

To be fair, those are few and far between since most Squirtles suck (myself included, we comin up)

 

[ECHOnce]

I was skimming over the average values and the rounding seemed kinda off on a few; prob due to updates and the AVG being a pain to recalculate every time lol. There's no real need for this to be used since the MU chart still has a bit of a way to go until things are completely filled out and agreed on, but here:

Spoiler: Alphabetical

Character | Current Value | Fixed Value | (6 digits, unrounded) | MUs Missing
|-2.2|-2.2|-2.2|0
|0.5|0.5|0.525|0
|-0.4|-0.3|-0.325|0
|0.1|0.1|0.10810|3
|-1.3|-1.2|-1.24324|3
|---|0.9|0.92105|2
|---|1.3|1.30612|1
|0.3|0.3|0.29545|6
|-0.9|-0.8|-0.84615|1
|-0.8|-0.7|-0.71794|1
|---|0.1|0.09375|7
|-0.3|-0.3|-0.25641|1
|-0.5|-0.5|-0.48571|5
|-0.8|-0.8|-0.79487|1
|---|0.3|0.27586|11
|---|0.1|0.11111|4
|---|0|0|8
|0.3|0.3|0.25|0
|-0.2|-0.2|-0.175|0
|0.2|0.2|0.2|0
|0.8|0.9|0.85|0
|0.9|1.0|0.975|0
|0.5|0.6|0.56410|1
|-0.6|-0.6|-0.59459|3
|-0.4|-0.3|-0.31578|2
|---|0.3|0.25|8
|-0.2|-0.1|-0.10810|3
|---|-1.3|-1.33333|16
|---|0.1|0.13513|3
|---|0.3|0.33333|8
|---|0.3|0.31428|5
|---|0.5|0.45714|5
|---|-0.4|-0.36956|4
|0.1|0.1|0.13888|4
|---|-0.1|-0.0625|8
|---|0.8|0.75757|7
|-0.4|-0.3|-0.34210|2
|---|0.7|0.67647|6
|---|-0.3|-0.25925|13
|-0.6|-0.6|-0.56410|1
|-0.1|-0.1|-0.1|0

Spoiler: By Average MU Spread

Character | AVG Value | MUs Missing
| 1.30612 | 1
| 0.975 | 0
| 0.92105 | 2
| 0.85 | 0
| 0.75757 | 7
| 0.67647 | 6
| 0.56410 | 1
| 0.525 | 0
| 0.45714 | 5
| 0.33333 | 8
| 0.31428 | 5
| 0.29545 | 6
| 0.27586 | 11
| 0.25 | 0
| 0.25 | 8
| 0.2 | 0
| 0.13888 | 4
| 0.13513 | 3
| 0.11111 | 4
| 0.10810 | 3
| 0.09375 | 7
| 0 | 8
| -0.0625 | 8
| -0.1 | 0
| -0.10810 | 3
| -0.175 | 0
| -0.25641 | 1
| -0.25925 | 13
| -0.31578 | 2
| -0.325 | 0
| -0.34210 | 2
| -0.36956 | 4
| -0.48571 | 5
| -0.56410 | 1
| -0.59459 | 3
| -0.71794 | 1
| -0.79487 | 1
| -0.84615 | 1
| -1.24324 | 3
| -1.33333 | 16
| -2.2 | 0

EDIT: Added a reordered chart by MU spread, since SmashBoard charts aren't smart enough to order negative values correctly lol (when you hit the arrows). Nbd, given that these values aren't weighted and their sources aren't reliable either (or even complete). But it's neat/convenient for reference.

 

[Kneato]

Hey Aura, two statistics I find helpful that you may or may not wanna add to your chart.

Match Up Ratio (MUR): Number of positive matchups compared to number of negative matchups. I feel like in PM, because of the massive cast of viable characters, this number is important in deciding the "worth" of a character along with their AVG.
=(COUNTIF(C2:AQ2,">0")-(COUNTIF(C2:AQ2,"<0")))

Uncertainty: Number of missing data points. I know the ultimate goal is to have every MU filled, but for now, it helps remind people to take certain averages and ratios with a grain of salt.
=40-(count(C3:AQ3))

EDIT: I just realized you don't calculate the AVG if there are any missing MUs, so I guess uncertainty would only be worth it if you DID calculate AVG and MUR for those cases.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I was skimming over the average values and the rounding seemed kinda off on a few

That's because I floored all of the averages.
Kirby, Pit and Yoshi seemed to be the most unexplored and/or unexposed characters so far this patch.

 

[menotyou135]

What's the matchup like for marth vs Mario?

Long and short of it is that mario has a rough time because he has short stubby arms with have trouble getting in vs marth's sword. His combo, edgeguard, and projectile game are good against marth, but marth just straight up wins the neutral and combos/edgeguards mario about as well as mario combos him.

Down tilt and fair walls in particular are rough for mario to deal with, and mario can't come down easy when marth is below him.

Basically, mario can definitely win, but he has to be super careful in neutral and try harder than marth. In melee it was a bit worse for mario/dr. mario.

 

[eideeiit]

But why is Mario approaching?

Because he fears getting dtilted to death?

Now I know nothing, but it feels like the CC-dash or whatever Dakpo made a video out of could be a huge game changer in the MU.

 

[menotyou135]

But why is Mario approaching?

Because he fears getting dtilted to death?

Now I know nothing, but it feels like the CC-dash or whatever Dakpo made a video out of could be a huge game changer in the MU.

Mario doesn't have to approach. He can use fireballs to force marth to approach. However, marth has plenty of tools to accomplish this. His wavedash is super long allowing him to shield fireballs and WD OOS to approach. He can swat away fireballs with a SHFF Fair, and his movement in general is really good for baiting out mario to do something.

Mario then has to retreat in order to keep up the fireball usage until he either runs into the edge or commits to something to deal with marth's dash dance. If he runs into the edge, then he doesn't have the options to keep marth out and marth now has great stage position. One mistake will lead to mario being in a recovery situation. If he retaliates before this, then marth's defensive options are better than mario's offensive options. Marth cannot be forced to commit in neutral. Mario can.

Basically, marth's offense beats mario's defense and mario's offense loses to marth's defense assuming equal level of skill.

Obviously This is a simplified version of what is happening and it isn't insurmountable for mario by any means, but it is a legit issue mario mains have to deal with. They need to outplay the marth in order to go even. The marth player only needs to play as well as the mario player to win. That is why it is in marth's favor. If the mario player plays 10% better than marth, they will win, but anything less than 5% better and they will lose (again simplified)

Marth's defense does have holes that mario can exploit to get in, but marios defensive holes are bigger. Marth's offense has weakness that can be exploited in the matchup, but mario's offensive weaknesses are bigger.

The difference isn't huge, but it does exist. Thus why I say it is 55-45 in marth's favor (melee was probably almost 60-40 for D.Mar.)

 

[Taytertot]

Id like to bring this up as i cant agree with some of the MUs listed for roy.

these are posts ive made in the roy boards but figured i could have a more open discussion by bringing in other mains. These are my thoughts and in no way am i suggesting that i have to be correct but im not going to agree with other opinions without counter-arguements.

my roy boards posts:

idk if itd be easy to make an opinion of every MU for roy so soon, especially since the 3.6 changes (from the beta and the full release) have effected MU's it may be too soon to say other then a hand full of MUs.
Edit: ok maybe i do have a fair amount of opinions about these MU's hahaha

however i would say that i strongly disagree with charizard being -2 because i think roy destroys charizard. id say DK should be the worst MU on the roy chart for roy i feel.
I think jigglypuff would be even since roy's reverse UpB kills jiggly at 0% if jiggly doesnt DI really well or is on a low ceiling/platform.
Im very curious how link is -2 for roy. link and roy go pretty even or slightly in roy's favor in my experience because roy has much better mobility and combos link really well and should be able to mitigate link's projectiles easily considering that none of them are very fast. Link also doesnt have the moveset to safely poke roy with his sword while roy can easily bait out upB OoS from link or just pressure his shield from a safe distance. As soon as roy gets link in the air its really easy to keep link from landing and take a stock in the process whereas link does not have the same ability to juggle roy forever due to roy's sideB stalls and link's laggy uair.
snake i feel should be in roy's favor. roy combos snake so easily that its kinda gross. snake's grenades are easy to deal with and avoid, roy's sword allows him to win any priority game and snake's recover is really easy for any character with disjoint to beat. If snake tries to sweetspot the ledge its pretty obvious ahead of time so roy can simply grab ledge and drop off and dj with the invincibility to smack him with bair or fair until he cant make it back and if snake recovers high then roy just frame traps him with an uair and then juggles him forever. snake on the other hand doesnt have very safe options to pressure roy and has to rely on punishing roy if roy has somewhat poor spacing.
ganon i feel is slightly in roy's favor because ganon doesnt have great ways of dealing with lots of close range pressure whereas in comparison marth tries to keep others at a distance which works to help ganon in that MU but roy can get in and also juggles ganon more easily then marth does. Roy's dtilt also does amazing work in this MU since ganon only has dair which can be interrupted by flurries of uairs. marth's dtilt on the other hand doesnt give him nearly as much reward against ganon. roy's ftilt also has more range then any of marth's moves so roy can poke at ganon from father away.

counter argument from X0dus (just for context sake of my next post):

I have a lot of Charizard experience and Charizard is really bad for Roy. Roy combo's charizard really well at low, mid, and to a certain extent, high percents but he also struggles to kill him if it isn't on a small stage. You have to either get a read or tech chase into a kill (And he is heavy so your throws are a little slower to act out of). He has huge range and because you rely on the hilt, he can easily space you out and your best option is f-tilt, but its hard to get much off of it from the tip. Charizard also combos the hell out of you and it is hard to get him off of you. His down tilt also makes it very easy to edgeguard you. He is also very strong and does a lot of damage, has multiple jumps, a glide, and a pretty decent up-b. You have to really outplay him to win.

And I've played a lot of Jigglypuff/Roy recently, this is not fun at all. In my opinion, Roys revolves around how well he combos his opponent, can he combo them at high or kill percents, and how well he converts that combo into a kill or kill move. He can't combo Jigglypuff, he struggles to kill her, and he can't combo her into a kill. She has no problem comboing him, she has no problem killing him, and she can combo him into a kill move. You can't challenge her in the air, its hard to approach her, and your only option is to space her out with up-tilt and f-tilt and camp the hell out of her. Yes, you can kill her with up-b, no, that doesn't make the match up any better because that only works if she misses a rest.

my counter argument to the charizard/jiggs MUs:

Im fairly inclined to believe you on jiggs being bad for roy but i wouldnt say that its that bad. jiggs does have a better aerial game but i disagree about being able to challenge her in the air, roy has a sword and thats going to beat any of her aerials unless roy is trying to get a meaty hilt attack. not to say that roy has a better air game then jiggs but if roy picks his moments carefully he should be able to swat her without trading. characters like jiggs and luigi i feel are MUs where roy does in fact have to switch to a more slow paced tipper game where roy is just trying to tack on bits of damage here and there rather then trying to push in in a MU that doesnt allow for it. once they are at a high enough percent roy has to be patient and try to find safe kill options with ftilt and other large range moves and since jiggs is the lightest character in the game it'll kill at a somewhat more reasonable percent then it would against the rest of the cast. though marth would do this much better and should probably be used instead for jiggs (which even if the roy player doesnt play marth they should be able to handle this MU better considering the similar moveset and better MU vs jiggs).

charizard does combo the hell out of roy but charizard's neutral game is not even close to as good as roy's. roy should be DD camping until charizard attempts to throw out a commitment which roy can then get his combo game going. charizard on the other hand doesnt have a very good DD because his dash is short which doesnt allow him to avoid very much unless his spacing is incredible or his opponents spacing isnt great. I dont think that roy struggles to kill charizard all that much because there are a few pretty easy combos that end in an fsmash that work much more easily against heavy characters at higher percents (uair and dair are the most prominent and straight forward). I also disagree about gettting little off of tipper ftilt, charizard's techs arent very fast and roy has great tech coverage with moves like nair and dtilt. roy can use this to pretty easily box charizard in a corner where roy's tech coverage becomes even more dangerous. I also dont think that charizard's is difficult to edgeguard. his upB is pretty easy to ledgehog and if he tries to recover high then roy just has to uair him since charizard doesnt have enough range on his dair or enough speed in his nair to cover below him. if charizard tries to recover with a glide just above the ground then a well spaced ftilt will beat anything he can do. as far as relying on the hilt goes, i feel this is the wrong way to think about it. using tippers allows roy to punish from a safe distance and setup his opponent to be at a disadvantage on stage space. this allows roy to commit even less while his opponent has to commit even more to get back space. as long as roy keeps poking them towards the ledge they will eventually have to commit to something that allows roy to connect those meaty hilt attacks without needing to endanger himself with an overly aggressive attack. I think that this strategy works particularly well against charizard who doesnt have a whole lot of fast moves with low end lag. even charizard's jab is a little bit on the slow side though it does cover a large distance. charizard also doesnt have any way to deal with tipper ftilt or dtilt on shield because his shield grab doesnt reach and neither does upB OoS and charizard's wavedash is pretty short which allows roy to attack shield with tipper dtilt and keep charizard at a disadvantage if he wavedashes out without having to commit to more then DDing. charizard on the other hand also has safe pokes on shield but charizard cant keep you in shield after throwing an attack out (like tipper dtilt/ftilt) without roy having plenty of time to wavedash out. I agree that charizard can edgeguard roy pretty well though idk if charizard can keep roy from sweetspotting the ledge with dtilt, though i imagine that charizard might be able to use the ending hitbox of nair to catch roy out of his upB for a kill while only taking a couple points of damage. but again i think roy can pretty easily edgeguard charizard as well by just waiting for charizard to setup the spacing of either glide or upB which can be ledgehogged or if charizard glides/uses multiple jumps to recover high then roy just uairs into combos.

Im really sorry that this is so long and im not trying to call anyone out by posting all this here id just like other people's opinions and figured that itd be helpful to provide all info on whats been discussed from the roy boards on my personal disagreements in the community chart thus far (since id like to know why others have post certain MUs as being what they are on the chart). If anyone else from the roy boards has different disagreements with the charts i'll let them post on this thread themselves. again im willing to hear any opinions but i will point out things that i disagree with and why and hopefully everyone does the same for my points.

id also like to add that i think ivy should be either even or +1 for roy instead of +2 as i feel that ivy has a lot of tools to keep roy from getting in. razor leaf can force specific approaches from roy so roy cant just approach in any manner he chooses, bair keeps roy from many aerial approaches (idk if ivy's bair size reduction changes this significantly so maybe im wrong), and if roy does run up shield to block razor leaf then ivy can get a grab which will give ivy some charge, a short combo at the very least and reset the situation where roy has to find a way in and ivy just has to hold her ground.

id also put DK as -2 because DK has range on roy, just a good if not better DD speed/distance, grab combos that can 0 to death roy if roy DI's poorly or kill roy after 2-3 grabs in one stock, and out ranges all of roy's attacks by a solid margin. This all forces roy to have to play differently and imo much more conservatively then he does in other MUs which is generally a sign of a pretty bad MU in my experience. while i dont think that this is a definitive point, i would like to say that many if not most roy's seem to feel that DK is roy's worst MU and that is not even remotely clear based on the MU community chart.

 

[ECHOnce]

My input on squirtle's matchups, Diddy no better than 1, DK 1, Falco 2, Fox -1, Ganon -1, Lucario -1, Marth 0, Roy -2, Snake 1, Zelda -1

Zelda gets pretty messed up in neutral. She can't use Din's fire nearly as effectively as in other matchups because of squirtle's speed and maneuverability she has a hard time comboing squirtle and struggles to edge guard. Her downB is her best option in against squirtle.

EDIT: @Vulvasaur can you confirm whether or not you meant to give Squirtle a disadvantageous MU vs. Zelda in your post on the first page? You described it as bad for Zelda, but gave Squirtle a -1 score.

Spoiler: Original Post

@ AuraMaudeGone questioning the Zelda-Squirtle MU ratio. How is it only -1 for Zelda? Looking through the thread, the scores it has received are -2 (myself), -1* (Vulvasaur), and -3 (Vitriform). Zelda boards is almost unanimous in agreement (from past discussions) that this MU is -3 (I'm an outlier). Not sure what the Squirtle boards are saying, but I doubt it's enough (+4) to offset this thread's -2 average score .___.
*Actually +1...?

 

[PlateProp]

wrong thread sorry

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

EDIT: @Vulvasaur can you confirm whether or not you meant to give Squirtle a disadvantageous MU vs. Zelda in your post on the first page? You described it as bad for Zelda, but gave Squirtle a -1 score.

Spoiler: Original Post

@ AuraMaudeGone questioning the Zelda-Squirtle MU ratio. How is it only -1 for Zelda? Looking through the thread, the scores it has received are -2 (myself), -1* (Vulvasaur), and -3 (Vitriform). Zelda boards is almost unanimous in agreement (from past discussions) that this MU is -3 (I'm an outlier). Not sure what the Squirtle boards are saying, but I doubt it's enough (+4) to offset this thread's -2 average score .___.
*Actually +1...?

Good catch. Corrected and adjusted.

 

[Kneato]

The Jiggs/G&W matchup is even on one half of your chart and "?" on the other.

If you are in the middle of updating and just haven't changed it yet, my mistake.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

The Jiggs/G&W matchup is even on one half of your chart and "?" on the other.

If you are in the middle of updating and just haven't changed it yet, my mistake.

Got it, and fixed.
Looking forward to the performances @ Paragon.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

Got it, and fixed.
Looking forward to the performances @ Paragon.

Semms to me like the jiggs G&W matchup is completly one sided in favor of game and watch. Hbox got destroyed by mr.lz

 

[Taytertot]

Hbox could have had a lack of practice with the G&W MU.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Hmm. There aren't that many Puffs I can consult about this. D;

@ SoulPech wrote the MU was +2 in Jigg's favor, but ofc G&W players would feel otherwise at this point.

 

[SoulPech]

I'm open to discussion, especially because of Paragon.

I initially wrote off as a +1 matchup because of GnW's precise hiboxes (aka sweet and sour spots) and if you poorly space against Puff when she is shielding or crouching, it's a free rest. Additionally, she can edgeguard game and watch very well because of his limited recovery (he has options, but if Puff knows them it makes it easier). Unfortunately, I did not watch the set between HBox vs Mr. LZ, but I'll be watching that later today.

 

[menotyou135]

Bacon and upsmash are pretty relevant in the matchup.

 

[Taytertot]

i still have several disagreements with roy's MUs on the chart.
i think charizard is in roys favor by at least +1.

Id say link vs roy should be 0

DK id put at -2 vs roy instead of -1

i would also put ganon and snake as slightly in roy's favor

and i feel like ivy is just +1 if its in roy's favor at all but i might even say its even.

 

[Phresh123]

Damn nobody here truly knows Ice Climbers because not many people play them at such a high level, such as myself and @Sharkz.

Think i've made a name for myself well enough to discuss MU's:

Worst Matches:

Peach (70:30)
LOL FUCC HER AND YOU @NOTMalachi


Zelda (70:30)
Recently beat Zhime, but in all honesty this MU is super hard IF you don't know how to play it right. Personally, just weave around Zeldas areials. Using blizzard/Ice blocks works to an extent, until she starts using her neutral B. Poweshielding works wonders in this MU.

WD OOS Jab is bread and butter also. Have to be very careful about desyncing since she can split the 2 up fast. Desyncing isin't safe unless you have some good space between you. Killing her off the top works around 87%+ (stage dependable).

Ivy (60:40)
I never lost a set to Ivy lol. Recently dropped a game in my set to Yung Quaff, and what I can say is that Iv'y bair, fair is his bread and butter. Razor leaf can be trouble if your not great at powershielding. Honestly think the reason this MU is how it is, is simply BECAUSE of bair. It priotizes so much space and hinders netural.

Best bet is to desync ice blocks/blizzards to gain neutral. In addition, Ivy is perfect weight for near ledge handoffs, and can be killed off the top early. Once in air, up-airs juggle lots of damage.

Samus (60:40)

I've only lost to my boy @Boiko Samus and learned some good ****ttt. Samus weight makes it easy for her to SDI down throw dair and down throw squall. Her OOS up-b game is crazy good, and missles EASILY splits the two up fast.

IMO to beat Samus you have to be up on her ar all times. WD OOS helps alot to get close to her. Up-airs work a ton also. When grabbed, it's best to just charge a smash move. Boiko survived off the sides at high %'s, so what's best is to kill her off top. Powershielding is probably the biggest factor in this MU for you to win, for it shuts down Samus main aspects against you.

Luigi (50:50)

My boy @zubat and Eli gives me a hard time in this MU. Luigi is another whose weight class makes it difficult for the two getting regrabs. His floaty ass smh. Feel like you have to always have neutral control to win. When grabbed, use smash moves dont go for regrabs. His areials all are good in this match. Zone him out with iceblocks/blizzards and wait for him to approach. Smash moves synced works well, and infact, being synced works a ton since he splits them up pretty well.

Well, just wanted to surface all MU's i feel that's hard for IC's. I honestly think they do fairly well with the rest of the cast. IMO they're definately top 15 in the game, but they need to be credited higher in tournies (which I been doing so far!) and understood a bit more to many that think they're not so good without infinites.

 

[Narelex]

Damn nobody here truly knows Ice Climbers because not many people play them at such a high level, such as myself and @Sharkz.

Think i've made a name for myself well enough to discuss MU's:

Well, just wanted to surface all MU's i feel that's hard for IC's. I honestly think they do fairly well with the rest of the cast. IMO they're definately top 15 in the game, but they need to be credited higher in tournies (which I been doing so far!) and understood a bit more to many that think they're not so good without infinites.

How's MK feel Phresh?

 

[Kneato]

So it looks like the biggest gaps in the data right now are, in ascending, Peach, Squirtle, Yoshi, and Pit. With those matchups filled in, most of the chart would be complete.

I assume Pit is so uncertain because of his recent overhaul. Perhaps Bowser's matchups should also be re-evaluated once more data comes in about his redesign?

However, we could probably do something about Peach, Squirtle, and Yoshi for the shortrun. I think the only issue is the lack of mains for these characters.

What are Bladewise's thoughts on Peach's matchups? Hamyojo would probably have some good feedback about Yoshi even if he doesn't play him as much anymore. And I know Wombat knows a bunch of Squirtle tech, does he place well enough at tournaments to be a viable source of info?

 

[eideeiit]

Dad, Dirtboy and maybe Daftatt and Zwarm are the squirtmen to listen to.

Also Zubat for Yoshi.

 

[Phresh123]

How's MK feel Phresh?

IMO I think its 60:40 IC's favor or 50:50

Like once I put up the desync blizzard/Iceblock wall, literally MK can't do anything. His nair can get punished on shield since it's two of us. He works best when he gets the two off stage. But even then Sopo can matchup with MK if you play it paitent.

Down throw chains work crazy good with Sopo. MK dies farily quick off the top too (85%+). MK can't just run in with the pressure unless he wants to get grabbed up. Also handoffs near the ledge are super easy to do on MK. WD Jab is really good for IC's in this MU as well.

MK favors in splitting up the two and hopes of gimping their recovery. Once separated, It can be hard to get them back together, in which MK excells at doing. When split, MK can juggle Nana with up airs, nairs, and just zone her out while taking minimum to no damage from Popo. Stage dependancy works to a CERTAIN extent, since IC's have crazy disjointed upairs when synced, if MK tries to camp platforms, timjng upairs right can hinder his camping ability.

Here's some footage of really good MK players in my region; check it out:

vs Almighty: http://youtu.be/Jy_Z9Q7HBnA (Most Recent)
vs Almighty: http://youtu.be/sLJW63VTxUI (Fairly Recent)

vs Gurukid: http://youtu.be/nQ9DAESdv4k (Most Recent)