Project GENO - MarioDK Demo out

[IndigoFenix]

Oh, Shadic, would you mind replacing version 1.18 with 1.2 on the front page? I won't ask you to do this every time, but 1.18 had a few major bugs (back throw, for example) since it was rushed.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/gtmtnzm3ma0/CosmicGenoVersion1.2.pac

 

[Shadic]

I tried out cosmic and fighter geno but it doesnt work and the geno texture doesnt work either. :/

That's because you're doing the codes wrong. Go get Brawl+ or BBrawl, which should have the codes included. It's not very hard.

And Indigo - No problem. It's easy to update a link, I was just a bit busy yesterday.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Oh, regarding attaching pokeball/assist trophy attacks to playable characters, Bigsharkz from Elite Smash Hackers is in the process of figuring it out. He's making a Ryu that uses some of Little Mac's moves. Here's the link before:

http://elitesmashhackers.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/teaserteaserteaserteaserteaser/

 

[xepherthree]

Shadic, I just finished playing with fighter geno for a while, and I'd like to say my opinions/possible edits for some moves.

A:Solid. Could use a little less startup lag, but it works.
Dash Attack: I likey. :D
Ftilt: I find the hitbox is a little too small, almost the exact same thing as the jabs. In fact, the rang on them seems really similar to me. I would try and add a little more horizontal range, I'm missing when I"m pretty close with it.
Utilt: I'd add a little more horizontal hitbox, and maybe more vertical, as the move is confusing because the hitbox is smaller than the sparkles.
Dtilt: Not my favorite move, but I like the idea.
Fsmash: I likey.:D
Usmash: I likey:D Effects look great, too.
Dsmash: I likey. :D
Nair: Great, works really well. The only thing that confuses me is why Geno does a back flip? I'm guessing to hit with his legs.
Fair:I likey. :D
Bair: Like nair, works really well, but i'm confused as to why Geno does a flip forward for his backward air.
Uair: I likey.:D
Dair: I already said my opinion on this a bit back, too fast for how it is right now. Or with that speed, leave the orbs out for longer, because I find it ridiculously hard to hit with, as I feel the attack is done before the animation is.
Neutral Special: Love it. I think you said you planned on fixing the lack of sound, right? the silence makes it eerie XD
Side B: I likey. :D
Up B: Pretty good, an aspect I love is how you can hit someone standing on the stage when you use it and grab the ledge. The one problem I find with this move is that when on FD, the speed at which Geno shoots up makes the corner a killer. I think it would work just as good slowed down a bit.
Down-B Aerial: Still not working for me. The problems with this is that there's a slight pause when you activate the move so you opponent can dodge in that time, and after the pause the hitbox is underwhelming. It's confusing, how the sparkles on the UpB hit but not on the down. When I (rarely) hit someone with it, They don't tend to be brought down with me, the just kinda get hit up a bit.
Down B Ground: I likey. :D Are you using the wario-dsmash hit box though? Kinda like if you hit someone with it once then it doesn't hit them again? Because if your opponent shields at the beginning at the move, you hit their shield, then they get a free hit. =/
Grab:Hookshot?
Throws: I likey. :D

Overall, Fighter Geno is definitely better than the first version, but could use some work. On a different tangent, I don't really like his falling speed, being pretty light. Due to his falling speed + fast upB he can be easily edgeguarded because often you need to use UpB the first moment you can, making his recovery pretty predictable.
The Idea for Lucarios final smash for geno blast would be **** epic.
Time to go test Cosmic Geno :D

 

[IndigoFenix]

I've been testing out move swaps with Geno to see what works, what freezes, what looks weird, etc... I'll give my current findings:

Altogether, what I'm finding is that the size of different character's heads, combined with differences in their body posture, makes it hard to judge who has similar body shapes and sizes.

Pretty much all of Mario's animations not only work without freezing, but the size fits pretty much perfectly. Pick and choose when appropriate. I'm thinking Bair is a possibility, although it does have a bit of choppiness near the end since his falling animation is different.

Fox seems like a good candidate - flexible and limber goes well with a doll, yes? His down-smash (split) works well - deceptively, Fox's limbs are about the same size as Toon Link's. On the other hand, Fox's head is much smaller, and Toon Link's head-to-limbs ratio kind of makes it look a little weird (the legs extend only a little out past the sides of the head). Not sure if it's better than the Nova Shell, though... I also tried his up-tilt, which worked...except his leg vanished during the kick .

There are two recurring issues - one is that, for ground animations, his feet are often lifted off the floor, with degrees varying from barely noticeable to severely weird. The other is that almost all move swaps cause his hat to become stiff and stick out.

Most importantly, I want to make sure that whatever Geno's moveset is, it should fit him. I don't want to jump on the moveset-swapping bandwagon just because I'm able to, but it does open up new possibilities.

I haven't tested Ness or Lucas yet, but I suspect that they might actually be too small.

 

[xepherthree]

Indigo, does just the hat become stiff or does geno go into a t-stance?

 

[IndigoFenix]

Indigo, does just the hat become stiff or does geno go into a t-stance?

In most cases, when a character with some kind of flexible extra part (Link's hat, tails, etc.) takes a move from another character, that flexible part stays in its neutral position because it has no animation data. The degree of weirdness this causes depends on the move (if it's a move where the character is spinning or moving forward really fast you probably wouldn't notice the difference) but for some animations it can be significantly annoying, for example, trying to swap Toon Link's standing or falling animations. Not as bad as a T-stance, but still something unwanted.

 

[xepherthree]

In most cases, when a character with some kind of flexible extra part (Link's hat, tails, etc.) takes a move from another character, that flexible part stays in its neutral position because it has no animation data. The degree of weirdness this causes depends on the move (if it's a move where the character is spinning or moving forward really fast you probably wouldn't notice the difference) but for some animations it can be significantly annoying, for example, trying to swap Toon Link's standing or falling animations. Not as bad as a T-stance, but still something unwanted.

Alright, I was actually thinking you could incorporate a spinning move, or if the animation permits a fast rocket pawnch where the hat wouldn't be noted.

 

[LightSpineSonic]

I got bbrawl recently but cosmic geno stil isnt working -_- Someone please help me with this D:

 

[Shadic]

Try Brawl+ instead. I don't know much about BBrawl codes and don't care enough to do Tech-Support on it, especially when you're being terribly unhelpful with what you're doing, what's happening, etc.

Also, for those who didn't like my Bair - Fret not! It's being changed in the next set! And it will be AWESOME.

Also - Sword and shield is gone. HYPE.

 

[xepherthree]

Well, after playing around with Cosmic Geno, I must say Indigo, I REALLY like it. You did a great job balancing him out, and I think that you're really close to perfection.
Two minor gripes: I haven't gotten f-throw to work, ever; and that having the same effect on fair and dair makes it confusing which one is which. I liked the fire better, actually.

-is hyped for next fighter geno-

 

[Shadic]

Next set also has a new Dair, as well as Uthrow, Fthrow, and Bthrow! Whoo!

 

[xepherthree]

-is excited for dair-

 

[MK26]

indigo, why not request to a mod that you take control of post 2 or get a post of yours inserted between posts 2 and 3?

 

[Shadic]

Is there anything wrong with how I've got it situated? I think it works fine.

Edit: Also - People who comment on random thread elements who haven't commented about either of the characters yet make me sad.

 

[Andydark]

The forward throw is randomly buggy depending on character slot, it seems...


In a Geno ditto, one player could f-throw, and the other one could not f throw.

 

[Shadic]

Which Geno are you talking about? And are you on the newest set for either?

 

[IndigoFenix]

Hey Shadic, I'm taking a guess that you're using a drilling attack for Down-A, right? Might I suggest Ness' downwards kick instead? It doesn't look quite as weird with the bouncing... unless you can figure out how to remove it, that is.

 

[Shadic]

I think the bouncing is indeed what's screwing up my hitboxes. I'm tempted to talk to PhantomWings about it, seeing as how there is obviously behavior that's NOT in PSA that's character specific.

 

[Megaman X]

Cosmic Geno suffers from two problems from what I can see:

1) He's too good in 3-4 player brawls
- Down B attack goes through objects and the spray is incredible
2) He's not good enough in 1 on 1 matches.
- His charge moves, namely Geno Beam, take too long to charge. I also think Geno Beam should be chargeable mid-air, so that he can land and then fire.
- Smash has horrible range, which is fine, but it might be too short.
- Geno Whirl takes a little too long to start for use in 1v1 matches imo.

These are just initial impressions; as I use him more things might change.

Both Genos are an incredible accomplishment. Congratulations to both of you.

 

[IndigoFenix]

Cosmic Geno suffers from two problems from what I can see:

1) He's too good in 3-4 player brawls
- Down B attack goes through objects and the spray is incredible
2) He's not good enough in 1 on 1 matches.
- His charge moves, namely Geno Beam, take too long to charge. I also think Geno Beam should be chargeable mid-air, so that he can land and then fire.
- Smash has horrible range, which is fine, but it might be too short.
- Geno Whirl takes a little too long to start for use in 1v1 matches imo.

These are just initial impressions; as I use him more things might change.

Both Genos are an incredible accomplishment. Congratulations to both of you.

Cosmic Geno is a lot better in multiplayer than 1 on 1, provided that the opponents aren't paying attention to him. Of course, since this advantage comes mainly from a powerful, slow-charging move, if the opponents decide he's causing too much trouble and gang up on him, that advantage is pretty much null.
Geno Beam is tricky to hit with, but if you save it for specific situations it works very well as a KO move. Try using it for edge-guarding.
Smash has horrible range? I'm assuming you're talking about the previous version's Down Smash, try using the latest version.
Geno Whirl had better be tough to hit with - it's a one-hit kill move on reasonably high damage. My advice is to practice hitting Sandbag with it and then use it as a punishing move, although if you get really good you can even hit moving opponents as well. I like using it while I'm jumping back to the edge and the opponent is focused on being offensive - most people rarely see that coming.
Altogether, he's meant to have a high learning curve. Also, don't spam his specials, they're meant to be used sparingly.

 

[Shadic]

I've changed the Dair again. Kinda works like a one-hit, non-momentum ending version of Lucario's. Working on the exact hitbox/animation properties, but it's pretty close to finished now.

Indigo - Have you done any more work on the grabs? I know you were mentioning before how it was pretty confusing, so I was just curious.

Also -

- Geno Whirl takes a little too long to start for use in 1v1 matches imo.

I disagree. It's an extremely powerful move that can be a bit hard to hit with, but it's still extremely powerful. The only thing I'd change on it would be to give it the transcendent property, to prevent it from clashing with other attacks.

Both Genos are an incredible accomplishment. Congratulations to both of you.

Thank you.

 

[Megaman X]

I agree, Geno Whirl is potentially really good, maybe I'm just not using it right. It only seems to land when people aren't paying attention, which is usually when two other people are duking it out and I just kinda sucker punch them, KOing them both, much to their anger. In one on one, my opponents rarely if ever whiff moves; if they do, it's something relatively unpunishable like a tilt. I'm just worried we'll end up with some move(s!) that have almost no use or are always outshined by better options, like Ness's original PK Flash. It's too early do draw conclusions; I'll mess with it some more.

The smash I'm talking about is his forward smash. I downloaded the build day before yesterday so I don't think that's it. Is it supposed to have decent range? It's whiffing way more than it seems it should. Fighter Geno's forward smash seems to land fine.

Also, it seems alot of his moves are un-absorbable by Ness/Lucas (Which is ok I guess), but they're also un-counterable by Marth and Ike, which seems ... sort of not ok.

From my perspective, one on one design should take priority over 3+ player design. Mob attacks are nice, but one on one matches are really where the intensity is at. You make a strong one on one fighter, you usually have a strong character regardless of how many are on the screen. The converse is not necessarily true, however. Though, I'm not here to tell you guys how to do this, I'm just making suggestions based on initial observations and my history with Smash. Take them with a grain of salt.

 

[zephyrnereus]

I tried out the cosmic Geno and I LOVE it! just a few complaints/suggestions/glitches.

• I find myself getting easily punished after sucessfully hitting with Bair.
• Areal downB would be more useful if it had some slight knockback, or remove the helpless fall state.
• The Geno Boost should be saved if you land on the ground.
• Sometimes, upB flies horizontal instead of vertical. it helps to grab the edge sometimes, but it has cost me a stock many times.
• Change Geno's grounded upB move. right now, all it does is give you super armor. you can spam it and become invincible for as long as you want. its ridiculous...maybe go with he charges his next areal attack, and if you press at the right time during the end of the charge, you get an additional charged areal. the window of the button activation should be small (maybe the same as the powershield's) and have a small amount of super armor. (a little more than Olimar's downB)
• You should be able to charge B in the air. that would help place Geno in a good position to use the attack. also the first charge should be a bit faster with less damage. its about the same startup speed as Geno Whirl and has much less reach. don't forget the fact that if used stategically and correctly, Geno Whirl is THE BEST (and coolest) KO move in Geno's asernal makes uncharged Geno Beam totally worthless.
• sometimes the sword appears in his hand. I dont remember during which attacks though.
• having 4 Genos at the same time freezes the game (probably due to graphics overload)
• it would be nice if the standard A combo had autojab, but it's not necesary.
• sometimes, Fthrow (I think) makes the opponent appear behind Geno while doing the attack.
• Uthrow should be a kill throw (based on the fact that Geno's strongests moves are vertical)

other than that, Cosmic Geno is pure awesome! I love the fact that he DOES feel like SMRPG's Geno! (with the "press A at the right time to achieve stronger attacks" mechanism, as well as having attacks that were based directly from the game)

EDIT: now that I notice, I may be using an older version of the pac...

 

[IndigoFenix]

Megaman, are you getting the double hit with his Forward Smash?

I'm a little worried with the 4 at the same time freezing... He doesn't even get close to the graphics limit anywhere except with his Final Smash (oh, possibly Geno Blast, I'm guessing that several fully-charged Geno Blasts at the same time may cause their graphical effects to fail, although I've never tried it), and I've never heard of freezing due to graphics overload anyway... Has this happened more than once? It could have been a one-time fluke.

 

[IndigoFenix]

Just to note, Cosmic Geno was designed as a one-on-one fighter. The fact that he happens to do much better in multiplayer was an unintended side effect. Part of the problem, I think, is that people are trying to spam his specials, which is a very bad idea. His special moves are designed to be used sparingly and in very specific circumstances - for example, Geno Beam is only good if you have enough time to charge it (naturally, its uncharged form is practically worthless in comparison to his other moves, it's just there to make it a little less risky to use), and while Geno Whirl can land a killing move, you have to be really good at it to hit an opponent, especially one who's moving, so it's best used for punishing or hitting someone who's charging an attack. If you spam it, you'll never land it - don't use it until you have a clear opening. Geno Beam and Geno Blast are both great edge-guarding moves, but with different purposes - Beam to KO or knock opponents away, Blast to rack up damage (both of these attacks can actually hit someone while they're hanging from the ledge). One nod I gave to Geno's turn-based RPG origins is that many of his most powerful moves require you to plan ahead to use effectively. He's a very finesse-based character as far as specials are concerned.

 

[xepherthree]

Not to sound like an @$$, but when I play brawl+(which is quite often), I'll even go as far as to say I main Geno. xD So true or not, I feel like I have a good amount of Geno experience, relatively.(This about cosmic Geno, btw)I feel like I can speak with authority in a way(less than that of Shadic and Indigo), about how I feel geno works.

Now that my tangent is over, I will say:
I find cosmic Geno to e an amazing 1v1 fighter. Indigo is right in that you can't spam his specials, I rarely ever use geno beam, sometimes down b, but I actually use Whirl quite often. I main ROB in vBrawl, and I actually find many of their moves to be incredibly similar. On the ground, Geno should mainly go by tilts. Ftilt has amazing range, utilt can faux combo people if they don't DI, and dtilt is a great combo starter. Also, jab spam>grab is quite easy to pull off.When you do use smashes, I only use fsmash if I can get the second shot, as I don't find it that useful otherwise. Running, Usmash is ********; the first two hits give it a huge range that really helps geno get people up into the air. Dsmash is beast, it can really be tricky to dodge and has good knockback.
But regardless, Cossmic geno really shines in the air. You'vs got to have really good timing to be good with his moves, and when you do, Cosmic Geno can be a *****. The fair is a good surprise move, throwing a rocket fist wrench into your opponents plans. Nair is a lot better then it used to be, again being a good interception to throw your opponents off beacuse you can travel a long distance with the hitbox. Uair is a good move, made better by that lingering hitbox that keeps your opponents juggled. A major reason that I like geno is becuase of his UpB, the fact that your aerials are actually STRONGER after you use it really makes it easy to juggle you opponents. I've actually busted a combo like this before on one of my friends:
Dtilt>uair>fair>bair>FF>utilt x3>usmash>UpB>bair.
Given that friend isn't the best brawl player, but you have a lot of possibilities. On the specials, as I said, I don't use them a ton on 1v1, but Whirl is actually pretty good. I prefer to use it in the air due to the slight angle of how tilts down, not many moves have an effect like that so people don't expect a move to come at them from a diagonal.

So yeah, that was abit explanation on Cosmic Geno. :D

 

[IndigoFenix]

Wow, Xepher, I didn't know anyone was maining Geno yet. Maybe you could play a Wifi match against my brother (Money113) sometime so he can try playing against someone who's actually good? Although I shudder to think at how much lag could wreak havoc with timed hits... maybe.
I have a hard time testing for balance, because he always wins no matter who we play as.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Not to be a pest but how soon do you plan on making videos with these two Genos? I'd really like to see how they play out.

 

[xepherthree]

Wow, Xepher, I didn't know anyone was maining Geno yet. Maybe you could play a Wifi match against my brother (Money113) sometime so he can try playing against someone who's actually good? Although I shudder to think at how much lag could wreak havoc with timed hits... maybe.
I have a hard time testing for balance, because he always wins no matter who we play as.

Haha yes! I think Geno is really good, and fits my playstyle of racking together random chains of hits, ala ROB. XD I just really like the feel of him, and in the last update you really balanced him out.(Epic bair **** XD)
But as I said before, the only things I would change (for now, maybe switch around some animations but keep the effects) is to fix the f-throw, and change the effect for dair back to what it originally was. your momentum really translates into that move, and with the sparking effects staying in place i really can't tell between it and fair.

And I'd love to play your brother, I probably am not that good with geno due to lack of good people to play against, but I think I'm pretty good.

And balance wise, I can't say I exactly know he's balanced 100% against the rest of the cast, but I know you balanced him much better overall on the last update.

Edit @ Fat(sorry XD):
I can't record myself, but I have afriend who does so I may send some replays to him and he can put them up.

 

[Megaman X]

Megaman, are you getting the double hit with his Forward Smash?

Yeah I'm doing both hits. What's the range supposed to be like?

 

[money113]

Eh, if you want to play, Xepher, we can play right now?
And he says to make sure you're playing with version 1.2 when you're ready.

EDIT: And, Brawl+ (5.0) only.
We also have Zero on, I'll play as him if'n you want or if you don't have him, I won't touch link.

 

[xepherthree]

Eh, if you want to play, Xepher, we can play right now?
And he says to make sure you're playing with version 1.2 when you're ready.

Alright, that'll work. I haven't gone on wifi on Brawl+, can you just play like normal? or do you have to have separate b+ roster?

EDIT: O have 1.2 and 5.0. I don't have zero, I'd like to see him though.
Hacked chars I have are Geno, Wisp, Mewtwo, Avatar Ness, Roy, and a ganon hack that fails XD
I'm thinking of getting zero, as I don't play link.

 

[zephyrnereus]

@Indigo:

I only did it once since I was showing/checking out Tlink's textures. we moved around, did probably 2 specials and it froze (along with the annoying beep). I didn't want to retry it since my friends and I were playing, and testing it out would kill some of the brawl-playing time.

what Xeph said about Cosmic Geno is pretty much true. I love Geno Whirl! I've been able to KO a Falcon with it while both of us were moving in the air various times. its WAY more satisfying than The Knee since you get the epic Homerun Bat sound (it also deals OVER 9000 DAMAGE! XD).
I love Cosmic Geno so much, I'd main him, if it wasn't for the fact that my wii can't read Tlink. D:

 

[Shadic]

Well, I've cleaned up all of my throws, so I'm pretty sure I'm done with those for now. Still gotta work on the grab - Indigo, did you ever figure out how to change the range/size of a grab?

Also, I feel like my Geno needs a safe approach option. Anybody have any recommendations? I've changed a few moves since my last release, but I still figure I may as well throw the question out there.

 

[D.B.K.]

Well, I've cleaned up all of my throws, so I'm pretty sure I'm done with those for now. Still gotta work on the grab - Indigo, did you ever figure out how to change the range/size of a grab?

Also, I feel like my Geno needs a safe approach option. Anybody have any recommendations? I've changed a few moves since my last release, but I still figure I may as well throw the question out there.

I'm pretty sure that the 2nd parameter in Throw Collision is the size.

 

[Shadic]

Gah. I gave him all of Mario's throw data, but after grabbing somebody, you can't throw them. You hold on until they break free.

 

[IndigoFenix]

Yeah... Apparently, Tink can't handle throws properly without the hookshot. The same thing happened a while back when I tried removing it altogether, before even changing the throws. That's why I had to leave it in for at least one frame. Did you say you could remove the graphic for the hookshot? Try copying my grab action and see if it works. I still haven't tested moveswapping throws - they tend to cause more problems than other actions - but maybe if the grab is good, the throws will work. Maybe.

 

[Shadic]

I fixed the grab, thanks much, Indigo. All I had to do was make the hookshot appear for the single frame that the grab came out on.

 

[monkeybeast0]

I'm loving Cosmic Geno, thought it feels like his basic melee attacks have very little range. Maybe this was intended, but it kind of offsets everything. If I'm reading correctly, specials are to be used sparingly sort of like surprise attacks, the problem is it almost feels like you have to use specials to be relatively accurate. Maybe its just the fact that I haven't had to get use to, whats basically, a whole new character.