That looks great, but without everyone in it, it's not of much use. I guess some time next weekend would probably be best.
-
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Project GENO - MarioDK Demo out
- Thread starter Shadic
- Start date
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Cosmic Geno doesn't use a Motion file.
I should just end technical support for old versions of Geno. Meh.
IMPORTANT:
Geno is basically going to be revamped from the beginning, as well. Here's a few basic things to discuss:
What version of Brawl should Geno be made for? VBrawl (Please god no), Brawl+, or ProjectM? I know that I'm kind of in the minority for having P:M right now, but it seems like most of the B+ community is going to migrate over. And I detest VBrawl.
Physics - Should Geno be quick, light, and fall quickly, like Fighter Geno currently does? Or a bit slower and floaty?
Move Concepts: Should Geno's B moves refer to his Specials from SMRPG? Or should we go for a bit more creativity? A mix and match? Are all of his attacks going to have some good distance to them, or will he have some physical punch/kick moves as well? Watch SMRPG's cutscenes for some inspiration here.
Piks - Can you please try and change Toon Link's grapple hook into a hand (the end of it) with string attaching it to his base? I think you can figure out what I'm talking about, but I can do some (depressingly) basic mock-ups tonight if you need more detail. Thanks.
I hated this re-imagining of Geno Boost when I first saw it. Originally, I felt that Geno Boost would be best served as a Final smash and Geno Flash as a Star Fox style up-b.
Now that I'm thinking about this again, I realize that Geno Boost as an up-b has really grown on me. It's imaginative, functional(in theory), unique to the brawl cast, and it really fits brawl's design very well. Frankly, I'm now convinced that no better alternative exists.
Concerning its functionality, last time I played the hack(I used cosmic) Geno Boost didn't seem to provide a drastic enough change to the aerials to be worth using. It's rather difficult to use because its vertical movement is quite large and you cannot cancel out of it into an aerial. If you do manage to land a hit out of it, it's not obvious that the aerial was boosted and it's simply not worth the trouble.
Personally, I'd prefer a Geno Boost that buffs Geno's aerials as much as doubling their damage output and knock back. This change would need to be balanced, without a doubt, though I don't feel comfortable making balancing suggestions of this nature without the moveset being finalized.
I'll revisit this concern once the new model's moveset is in place.
I'd also like to see an addition to Geno Boost that allows for a timed input that adds a small super armor buff to the boosted decent. What are your thoughts on this?
tl;dr Geno Boost as an up-b recovery is incredibly imaginative and unique, although its functionality is a little lacking. I'd be very disappointed if Geno Boost as an up-b were to be removed.
I'd like to be involved in this. Please keep me in the loop if the event goes private.
What about Balanced Brawl? I'd like to see a version of Geno adapted for the high level play popular mod(whichever it will end up being), but I don't personally like the physics of B+ or ProjectM so I do not use them.
He strikes me as floaty. I've actually been deterred from using Fighter Geno just because the physics don't feel like Geno, to me.
uB - Boost
dB - Blast
B - Beam
sB - Whirl
Geno has 5 specials in SMRPG and 5 specials slots in Brawl.
Stepping away from this would feel very awkward and would be a betrayal of the character, from my perspective. I really like the creativity in the re-imagined Geno Boost and further changes like this might be welcome, but to completely replace a special would seem unacceptable.
Though I like the idea of using a rocket punch to tether, it seems unnatural to give Geno a tether move. Let me elaborate:
a) "Geno should have a tether. What could we use as a tether? Rocket Punch would be cool!"
b) "ToonLink has a tether. What could we use as a tether? Rocket Punch would be cool!"
I feel like thought process 'b' is what has happened here. Though I understand that nothing from SMRPG blatantly states that Geno shouldn't have a tether move, I must emphasize that nothing from SMRPG suggests that Geno should have a tether.
Rocket punch would be a cool idea for a tether, if he needed one, but he doesn't. Giving Geno a tether is just catering to ToonLink, which isn't appropriate, anymore.
ds22
Smash Lord
A Project M Geno could also work in Brawl+, right?
I mean, the Physics and fighting style would be a bit of, but aside from that it would still be playable.
Talking about the Physics, I think he should be a bit slower and floaty, like you suggested.
I mean, the Physics and fighting style would be a bit of, but aside from that it would still be playable.
Talking about the Physics, I think he should be a bit slower and floaty, like you suggested.
Alright thanks, and for the question, project M please.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
BBrawl and VBrawl have the exact same physics. Incredibly floaty, no real air momentum to speak of, auto-snapping edges, no hitstun, etc.
since ima on me lunch break i don't have alot of time to say much but...
maybe the geno boost could be still used as a recovery, but it works differently on the ground, what i mean is
in the air, when you use it, geno boosts(lol...) high into the air kind of like warios up b.
on the ground, instead, it buffs geno for like 5-10 seconds(however long you thikn would be ok) and slightly increases his attack power, and if you press the timing right, also slightly increases his knockback resistance, not by a huge amount that makes him insanely strong, but just a little bit, and if used in the air after already having used it on the ground for the buff, it gets rid of the buffs, but propels him just a *TINY* bit higher then normal.
/flame shield
just an idea...
one thing i know for certain though;
his final smash shold most definatly be the geno blast, the flash, even though its his strongest attack, doesn't look anywhere near as cool as the geno blast does in the game.
maybe the geno boost could be still used as a recovery, but it works differently on the ground, what i mean is
in the air, when you use it, geno boosts(lol...) high into the air kind of like warios up b.
on the ground, instead, it buffs geno for like 5-10 seconds(however long you thikn would be ok) and slightly increases his attack power, and if you press the timing right, also slightly increases his knockback resistance, not by a huge amount that makes him insanely strong, but just a little bit, and if used in the air after already having used it on the ground for the buff, it gets rid of the buffs, but propels him just a *TINY* bit higher then normal.
/flame shield
just an idea...
one thing i know for certain though;
his final smash shold most definatly be the geno blast, the flash, even though its his strongest attack, doesn't look anywhere near as cool as the geno blast does in the game.
Matteron
Smash Ace
I'm saying brawl +, because a B+ character doesn't feel that much different in vbrawl, but a VB character does feel different in b+
Xaranid
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2009
- Messages
- 151
I personally love the current set of special moves. The ^B is an incredibly creative way to incorporate a mario rpg move into a usable moveset without being overpowered. The geno whirl side B is insane, thats probably my favorite move on the moveset. I LOVE the timed hit function, and i think it gives the character a mario-rpg feel that really makes him unique. The down B is amazing visually, and i think as long as it's toned down power wise a bit it can be an entirely balanced and imaginative move. Neutral B pretty much gets the same attention as geno whirl, the timed hit feature is great. Overall, i think more of his moves could incorporate a timed hit, and of course he needs the finger fun as an attack. Personally, i liked the a-combo and forward smash of cosmic geno (with a timed hit for bonus damage of course). I'm glad this project's picking up speed again, and i can't wait to see the next version!
btw, i vote Vbrawl...im a minority, i know lol Ive never played P:M, but either way the moveset will be entirely usable in VBrawl, so i say go for what you think is best. Also, i love the tether grab, it pushes the puppet thing more, and looks cool lol Final smash could probably use some work, but i think the attack that was chosen (with the cannon...i cant remember the name this second) is great.
btw, i vote Vbrawl...im a minority, i know lol Ive never played P:M, but either way the moveset will be entirely usable in VBrawl, so i say go for what you think is best. Also, i love the tether grab, it pushes the puppet thing more, and looks cool lol Final smash could probably use some work, but i think the attack that was chosen (with the cannon...i cant remember the name this second) is great.
Uncle0wnage
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Messages
- 55
maybe for the final smash, you have a crosshair like dragoon target and you can aim where to fire, and when you do a canon shoots the blast at the crosshair, and you can time a button press to double the explosion size, but i don't know....
Matteron
Smash Ace
Geno for Link
Hey guys, for people like who don't want to take ToonLink away, but don't give a **** about normal link, I've compiled this pack so you can replace Link with Geno. This pack comes with Fighter Geno.
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---------------------------------------
Glitches
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Grab problem - When he grabs someone, he can't throw or hurt them.
Freeze at end - When a match ends the game freezes, because Toonlink/Geno uses a file called FitToonLinkResult.pac, which is not used by Link, and thus can't be replaced, the easiest way of fixing this is via PSA(Shadic Help!).
---------------------------------------
Credits
---------------------------------------
Shadic - PSA
Pik - Vertex
Manic - Color Changes
Italian Stallion - Red Color Change.
Hey guys, for people like who don't want to take ToonLink away, but don't give a **** about normal link, I've compiled this pack so you can replace Link with Geno. This pack comes with Fighter Geno.
---------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
Glitches
---------------------------------------
Grab problem - When he grabs someone, he can't throw or hurt them.
Freeze at end - When a match ends the game freezes, because Toonlink/Geno uses a file called FitToonLinkResult.pac, which is not used by Link, and thus can't be replaced, the easiest way of fixing this is via PSA(Shadic Help!).
---------------------------------------
Credits
---------------------------------------
Shadic - PSA
Pik - Vertex
Manic - Color Changes
Italian Stallion - Red Color Change.
libertyernie
Smash Ace
Hmm... I'm working on replacing my Link slot with Toon Link (why? just because) and I'm not having any freezes on the result screen.
I did have freezes whenever TL used his hookshot, but I copied the data from EscapeAir to replace AirCatch and took out everything in Catch so it won't freeze.
I did have freezes whenever TL used his hookshot, but I copied the data from EscapeAir to replace AirCatch and took out everything in Catch so it won't freeze.
Piks
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2007
- Messages
- 396
I actually started when Necro Toad posted the concept, heh. I'll have it ready soon.Piks - Can you please try and change Toon Link's grapple hook into a hand (the end of it) with string attaching it to his base? I think you can figure out what I'm talking about, but I can do some (depressingly) basic mock-ups tonight if you need more detail. Thanks.
Matteron
Smash Ace
Wait, did you out in the FitToonlinkResult.pac?
Yes, but a moveset balanced for vBrawl might well not be balanced for Balanced Brawl. This is what I meant, and what I thought you meant.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but a character balanced for B+ would be extremely awkward in serious play with BBrawl. A generalized example of this is that intentionally included combos would no longer exist and there would be no compensation for this, thus weakening the character overall.
I completely understand, now, that you're uninterested in mods that use Brawl's original physics and are therefor not motivated to make a version a Geno for them. That's reasonable and I respect that. Make Geno for B+ and I, or someone else before I get around to it, will balance him for BBrawl, if he needs it.
EDIT: Also, I know this is looking rather far into this project's future, but I have a suggestion for Geno's official stage that I essentially want to call dibs on. My idea is a stage hazard for the texture hacked Subspace Jungle stage(which I really like):
Bowyer arrows
Part 1:
The idea is that Bowyer arrows would periodically rain down on the stage, temporarily freezing anyone hit by them. Anyone hit by an arrow would enter the same state that Razanak7's Dark Link causes when he hits someone with his neutral-B(the opponent stops exactly as they are, even in the air- they are not put into ZS stun, or shield break state).
Part 2:
It would also be interesting in there were three buttons on the stage that would be hit by arrows with a particular timing and order. The buttons would read "R", "A" and "B". If you remember the Bowyer fight in SMRPG, you know what the buttons would do. For those of you who do not, if the "B" button is hit with an arrow, the b-button on all players' controllers is disabled for a short set amount of time.
This idea is obviously not for high-level competitive play as it would completely wreck certain characters, but I think it would be an extremely unique and fun stage hazard for casual play.
I realize that creating this is currently not comprehensible, but I wanted to propose the idea so it could be considered.
Uncle0wnage
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Messages
- 55
project m, for sure, I'll get that when it comes out.
Necro Toad
Smash Apprentice
My points:
ProjectM: For me, this not make much sense! First because Geno isn't a character from Melee, and second, I don't see any advantage on it!
VBrawl: I think that make a character for a unbalanced game is not a good idea! And by the way, to get Geno in Brawl, the person will have to hack his game, and the most part of the people that hacked his game, has changed this for some other style (Brawl+, ProjectM, BBrawl)
Brawl+: in my opinion, this is a great choice! This mod is balanced and very famous! So, this is a great idea!
BBrawl: This is a good point too! This mod have the same style of the VBrawl (that any one in here played a lot of time!), and is very balanced!
So we have two options: BBrawl and Brawl+! I think that the criterion here should be the most popular!
In Mario RPG, there are 2 things about the battle experience: The strategy and the timed hits. So we need add this 2 things in the game.
I think that a Geno less faster (like Cosmic), give the player, a battle focused on timing and strategy, while a faster Geno give the player a combo experince (and this choice isn't like SMRPG's style)!
thinking in the creativity, the Geno's UpB has done a good job! Maybe we don't need to removed this, but only edit.
We can make something like link2702 said. Only launch Geno in the air when used on air (like Link's UpB)! But we should make the length of this move be based on time (the time his effect stay in the character should be based on the sucess of the Timed Hit). Like link2702 said, the effect can be based on the Timed Hit success too!
For the others specials, i think that they are already good. The only thing that I don't like, is the fact that the length to do a perfect Timed Hit is very extensive.
The GenoBlast shoud come of a very high place and have a vertical damage area, like Pikachu's DownB! but I'm not sure about this...
And about the grab (z button), if we are not going to use this like a UpB recovery (to resolve the fact that Geno don't have any move in SMRPG that launch he in the air), we should not use this, like toddtj said, since this move don't exists in SMRPG.
About the distance of Geno's moves, I think that A attacks should have a mid range, something like Olimar's range. Maybe, make the physic and the trajectory of his projectiles like pikimins when launched, might be a good idea.
I'm sure whichever project you guys build him for, he can be ported to others later. Are you gonna use Toon Link as a base to rebuild from, or one of the geno's as a base? I'm sure whatever you guys do will be great. But as a request from a Fighter Geno user, I think you should keep the f-air. The way that move felt when executed was pure awesomeness.
Uncle0wnage
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Messages
- 55
i think his aerials should have the "pull" effect of fair, like the toy is being pulled by another power, it would add to his air game.
Uncle0wnage
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Messages
- 55
I'm fine with brawl+ also, whatever you guys think is best.
Matteron
Smash Ace
Eggman
Smash Apprentice
I'm probably with the minority when I say vBrawl... but having a Brawl+ character in vBrawl won't be that much of an issue, I suppose.
I honestly think making the character for anything but Vbrawl or Bbrawl is a terrible idea. The point is to get Geno into brawl. Most people play standard brawl so we should make it for the largest audience. Normally I'd say it only makes sense to make it for VBrawl at first and then to adjust it for all the other hacks. In this case though BBrawl is basically a balanced version of standard brawl and a bbrawl character will work perfectly well in standard brawl.
Making Geno compatible with other hacks are individual projects. I don't see the point in catering to a relatively small crowd of people (though they are likely the most vocal). I want something I can get my friends (and other people's friends) to play and none of them play brawl hacks (well they play BBrawl if I bring it).
Also I know I've said this several times but something like a vote would be a hell of a lot easier in a chat room. I think saturday or sunday night would probably work well.
Making Geno compatible with other hacks are individual projects. I don't see the point in catering to a relatively small crowd of people (though they are likely the most vocal). I want something I can get my friends (and other people's friends) to play and none of them play brawl hacks (well they play BBrawl if I bring it).
Also I know I've said this several times but something like a vote would be a hell of a lot easier in a chat room. I think saturday or sunday night would probably work well.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
More people who mod their Wiis probably play Plus, Minus, or something else, however.
Matteron
Smash Ace
You know what, Shadic, what do you play? Because it would be a pain for you to test out a character you're making.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
I'm a developer for Project M. I know everybody else isn't so lucky, however.
Matteron
Smash Ace
Lol, of course it's the one project that almost no one else has XDI'm a developer for Project M. I know everybody else isn't so lucky, however.
Right but I think the goal should be to get it out to as many people as possible and I know a lot of people who think Brawl+ is just crap because it alters the original game so much. That doesn't mean they aren't fans of Geno.
I think it would be better just to release the character for Vbrawl or BBrawl (since it's so similar and a character made for it is practically identical to a standard brawl character). Then the communities for other hacks can add him and adjust him to fit their hack. A Brawl+ character would not at all work for Balanced Brawl and it would probably be a little off in Standard brawl too.
I mean it's not like we can balance one character for VBrawl, BBrawl, Brawl+ and Project M. That's a bit of an unrealistic goal. We'll pretty much need 4 versions, well maybe 2 or 3. So for now since people are using to adjusting VBrawl characters for hacks I think something like that makes the most sense.
Eldiran
Smash Lord
Actually, in my experience, it's pretty easy to convert from v/BBrawl to Brawl+. Halve aerial landing lag, speed up a couple moves, maybe increase falling speed. Make sure there aren't any glitches and momentum only carries when it should...
That's the bare minimum, but it would do. Project M may be a lot harder to convert to/from.
That's the bare minimum, but it would do. Project M may be a lot harder to convert to/from.
ds22
Smash Lord
That may be true, but remember this:
Most people around here find that VBrawl's gameplay failed (hence the existence of the Brawl codesets).
Most movesets around here were made for Brawl+ gameplay, since that is (for now) the most popular codeset.
Making this PSA for VBrawl would not be a good idea, since not that people around here use VBrawl (please correct me if I'm wrong on that point).
And your argument about getting Geno into Brawl is in my view invalid, since Brawl+, Brawl-, BBrawl, VBrawl and to a point Project M are all Brawl.
Only different codesets (or no codeset for VBrawl).
So I'm of opinion that for starters a Brawl+ (or Project M) version should be made and then edited to match the gameplay styles of Brawl-, Project M/Brawl+ and BBrawl (since you already stated that BBrawl and VBrawl have the same gameplay style).
I agree that BBrawl is wider audience, although they are less vocal, and that making a new character for a niche, first, is a awkward choice; however, I disagree that this decision should be left up to a vote: whoever will be doing the work on the PSA(is that only you, Shadic?) should choose whatever mod they are most familiar with and most comfortable working with.
How much work would it be to convert a B+ non-melee character to ProjectM, Shadic?
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Converting from B+ to ProjectM would be a lot easier than VBrawl to ProjectM, I'm assuming. The biggest issues comes in the fact that I think B+ still (dumbly) modifies character attributes (Run speed, jump speed, physics, etc.) in a code, instead of the character .pac file. I'm pretty sure P:M doesn't, and BB and VB obviously do not.
Honestly, I think it mostly comes down to two audiences:
VBrawl/BBrawl
B+/P:M
I think most B+ players will "convert" to P:M once there's a beta release, and VB/BB are honestly so much alike that there's not really a need to mess with character balance for the two of them - Just make it so Geno doesn't suck in VBrawl, and he'd be fine in BB.
If people are willing to temporarily modify their .gct codes to remove Toon Link's gravity mod, I think doing a hybrid B+/P:M development would be best. Somebody who actually likes VB/BB could do the conversion to those for any major character releases. It would basically be the opposite process that Eldiran mentioned - Slow down some moves, double landing lag, increase floatiness.
Honestly, I think it mostly comes down to two audiences:
VBrawl/BBrawl
B+/P:M
I think most B+ players will "convert" to P:M once there's a beta release, and VB/BB are honestly so much alike that there's not really a need to mess with character balance for the two of them - Just make it so Geno doesn't suck in VBrawl, and he'd be fine in BB.
If people are willing to temporarily modify their .gct codes to remove Toon Link's gravity mod, I think doing a hybrid B+/P:M development would be best. Somebody who actually likes VB/BB could do the conversion to those for any major character releases. It would basically be the opposite process that Eldiran mentioned - Slow down some moves, double landing lag, increase floatiness.
humble
Smash Ace
Being that P:M is an up and coming project with a large fan base which currently appears to hold the most potential for the largest audience, and has so far proven to be directed in such a manner to best facilitate it's continued success. Currently it has a well organized team of some of the most skilled hackers in the community who have been working on it for month's to ensure it will be an extremely polished product and as such that is why we have no beta yet, I feel that Geno would be most benefited and enjoyed by the majority of people who will be converting to play P:M upon it's release, as from what has been shown P:M has garnered the support of the majority of B+ players, Melee players, and vBrawl/BBrawl players, I believe upon release it will be the largest and most successful product to date, because it has the most work invested and is being meticulously overseen and directed, and supported. Drawing from the reactions of the community, I believe it to have the potential to surpass all the previous projects in sheer numbers of players. More to the point from my obvious bias towards that particular project, the head person designing Geno (Shadic) is a team member of P:M with access to the project, and if he is going to put in the extensive work necessary to revamp this character, I believe he would wish to do so in the project he has invested time in and most prefers-
And conversion would not be an overly difficult process, if it comes down to it I myself would make the different variations after Shadic finishes, it's hardly an enormous undertaking and could be completed easily once we have the new Geno to convert. Why not have Shadic design the character for his own project, and after he finishes we can simply modify some attributes, frame data, and fit him for all the other mods available.
Shadic, do you have a specific plan for everything, or are you still taking input on the character? I'm sure another wall of text or two couldn't hurt...
Necro Toad
Smash Apprentice
yep, Shadic, I agree with you!
but a character made from a hybrid of Brawl+ and P:M will not become unplayable in Brawl+, because of the hardcore fetures of ProjectM?
By the way, there is someone to do the animations?
but a character made from a hybrid of Brawl+ and P:M will not become unplayable in Brawl+, because of the hardcore fetures of ProjectM?
we can start making the project for ProjectM, and when it is finished we port this to the other mods!
By the way, there is someone to do the animations?
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Most everything is still up for debate. I tried getting some physics responses, and only got a few.. Most comments were for what project to aim for.. But I think P:M does indeed make the most sense. And seeing that Geno could easily take a couple of months, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a P:M release made public before that time has come. No reason to change gears mid-attempt, I think. That settles it, Geno will be initially developed for Project M. First thing: figure out a character who's physics would be most appropriate for Geno. First, let's talk falling speed and aerial mobility. I liked my build of Geno for the physics, but some others may disagree. The thing I liked most was the speediness of all of his movements, and the humongous first jump.Shadic, do you have a specific plan for everything, or are you still taking input on the character? I'm sure another wall of text or two couldn't hurt...
Nobody is currently doing animations, but anybody who is willing and able should begin now. Honestly, if you come up with an attack and it works well, you'll have a good chance of having it in the project. Later on, ideas may be improved upon or removed, but anything is currently better than what we've got. Use either Geno as a base for basic attack ideas, or use neither Geno. It's all up to you for now! Criticism can come after people have thrown out ideas and put animations where their mouth is. Seriously, anybody can and should take initiative here. I'm more of a Project Head than anything. I'll try and steer conversations to be productive, and speak my mind when necessary, but feel free to collaborate with anybody talented and willing to work on Geno as well.
Matteron
Smash Ace
You know, you can just make a poll...
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Polls are a shallow way of making choices. Especially if you can't go back and change your vote later due to a persuasive argument.
And, you know, not all voices are equal.
And, you know, not all voices are equal.
libertyernie
Smash Ace
I just didn't include the FitToonlinkResult.pac file. All that happens is that the pig isn't there and Toon Link's baton is replaced with the end of the hookshot in his taunt.
Eggman
Smash Apprentice
I'm no animator or PSAer, so I can't really contribute much... all I can say is that I really wish you guys luck. I'll be cheering on the sidelines!
If you're more comfortable making it for Project M that's fine I suppose I just don't want to see the project get finished and no one has any interest in altering it for any of the other hacks.
Ummm is wood heavier than flesh? I'm not really sure. I think it would be, in which case I'd say he should be closer to fox than to say kirby. I don't know to what degree though. I think it really depends on his moveset as well.
I think what you have now is pretty good. Oh and for no particular reason, could you alter his air mobility only after the second jump?
Ummm is wood heavier than flesh? I'm not really sure. I think it would be, in which case I'd say he should be closer to fox than to say kirby. I don't know to what degree though. I think it really depends on his moveset as well.
I think what you have now is pretty good. Oh and for no particular reason, could you alter his air mobility only after the second jump?