Project Ganondorf - Help get de-cloneing Ganon in smash ultimate trending!

[BronzeGreekGod]

i dont know how the shield break mechanic works, but if it takes 3-4 orbs to break one at that charge i think it would work out if those later orbs are given different physics compared to the 1-2 orbs. The shield breaker orbs could give a little bit of outward knockback that stacks with how many hit the target while they stun, much like his final smash. Just an idea though.

The time to charge the attack that could potentially destroy a shield (3-4 latter orbs) is about the same as marth's shield breaker, so it shouldn't imbalance the character.

Wouldn't hurt to add some aesthetic sparks on the latter orbs to differentiate them as well, if possible.

This is good
im not sure but does knockback stock up automatically?

 

[Buffskin McThunderfists]

This is good
im not sure but does knockback stock up automatically?

Now that i think about it, i guess it does. I can't recall any situation in project M where stun attacks have significant stacking knockback though, it'd be interesting to play with for sure, especially in team matches.

 

[Patcheresu]

- what would you suggest other than changing the angle?
Not much else comes to mind.

- what do you mean exactly? the angle of what?
The angle the attack comes from. Bair and fair go at the same angle it seems. That makes landing fair either tricky or insanely easy.

OOT fights as if he should ALWAYS be above the opponent. So when he's below them, he suffers a bit because:

Nair is nice for racking up damage but lacks purpose on its final hit. It needs more knockback.
- if you finish nair in the air it is a light meteor. Because you can hold the attack in air, if i made the meteor more powerful i feel it would be way OP. Use it off stage to suck enemies in and then have them fall to their dooms at high damages
- That being said maybe i need to make it more powerful?

Again, I would really appreciate it if there was some moveset documentation. I had no idea it did anything besides hurt a bunch and restrict my movement.

Side-B needs bigger hitboxes or bigger windboxes because it is in the category of never useful compared to other moves.
- In project m his cape is weaker than mine
- the real use of this attack is in the air - if you connect with the body hitboxes, it is a semi spike
- im thinking of making him have armour at the start of the animation
- i dont think it needs to be more powerful but i could be wrong - what would you say it needs to do?

That would be nice to know. Also, armor sounds lovely. One hit sounds good. Because of its range, if you give it too much armor he can just jump offstage and become a floating iron wall of reversals.

I still don't understand what ftilt is even supposed to do.
- a direct hit damages enemies similairly to vBrawl ganons jab
- A charged version has wind boxes which should be used to push enemies away - especially recovering enemies (Edge guarding)

I'll try it out for edgeguarding and get back to you.

Down-B deserves to be a killmove. It isn't. It should be.
- really? Like down b in the air? or the uppercut?

Uppercut. I should have been more specific. Air Down B is just fine.

Forward smash has too much charge time for too little payoff. Why not use down smash? It does similar damage and has far less charge time to be devastating. Maybe it should be angle-able.
- the tip of f smash is the money maker (all electric attacks are this way except down smash)
- Do you think it needs to be stronger still?

The problem with so many sweetspot moves is that if I can't land my sweetspot, what good is the move?
Hopefully the answer is mediocre otherwise the move is shelved unless I can get a hard read.
I don't want him to be "stronger" I want him to be more balanced in the sense of a scale. Some moves should have the tippers deal less but non-tippers deal more or just have no sweetspots at all like up-tilt. It's reliable.

Up-tilt is nice for damage racking up but not for getting the pressure off of you.
- any suggestions here?
- Its good to start air combos too...

Okay, so when I get that air combo going, I'm left with pretty much nair if I'm out of range for a fair sweetspot.

His cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die BEST moves, fair and dair, require him to be above someone to hit. Just make them different, but not opposite angles.
- What do u mean?

Like having fair go from W to E instead of from W to SE while keeping bair going from E to SW.

Meanwhile...

Every throw besides back throw is a joke. Back throw is insanely overpowered in damage and knockback. Try less 15~20% more 5~10%.
- i know back throw needs toning down
- what would you suggest? maybe a stronger f throw?
- cant make all the throws super kills
- maybe up or down throw need angle altering? What would you suggest?

Again, I don't want him stronger. His sweetspots hit like a tank. But I want him more versatile.

Forward throw and back throw are kinda like Ness.

Down throw and Up throw are usually combo throws. They should put people in disadvantageous situations for tech chases and combos.
Down-B never seems to make anyone bounce. Up-B, however, doesn't really do much besides be a bouncy Down-B

- huh?

Got confused. Down-THROW never does what it should, and make people bounce off the ground.

Up-THROW does.

But because of the endlag, its hard to hit em with something of use.

I could use dair, but his slow mobility limits sweetspot dairs as an option. The reason Lucas has such teeny and demanding hitboxes is because he has the mobility to overcome his sub-par size and a move that makes his hitboxes bigger.

Neutral B is the exact opposite of helpful in almost any scenario.
- the single orb is the most useful right now- but im aware it needs work
- any suggestions (on the single orb shot, the charge phase, OR the fully charged attack?)
Global accuracy increase.
Spread the extra orbs out more.
- its meant to bring enemies far away close to you/stun them so you can attack.
I can't get it to land at all.

- this is something i want to know more about - what do you think about the damage %'s in general? What attacks are too high?
SWORD Bair and fair hit worse than Ike or Marth when sweetspotted and hit like Ike when they don't.
SWORD Up-air on sweetspot. Why does that have one and why does it kill when it does?

- however f and back air have a lot of horizontal coverage dont they?
Yes, if you are above the opponent. Otherwise, fair is actually either useless or amazing depending on the sweetspot whereas bair is much much easier to deal huge damage with. When I keep saying change the angle I mean change fair's angle so you have at least one aerial which can hit someone that isn't below you besides nairing into them.

- Ive aimed for anything with multi hits to be balancd out by making the MAIN hit do less damage. Other than attack100 (which needs work) im not sure how much the multi hits are really used to rack up damage.

- test out the knockback more on some attacks.. i think you havent yet caught on to the sweetspots.
That is true. I'd really appreciate it if you provided more documentation.

- that being said what attacks specifically do you think SHOULD 100% have more knockback (maybe removing some sweetspots and making them more rounded would be a good idea?)
JAB. It is unquestionably overpowered.
And for more allroundedness, fair knockback wise, forward smash knockback wise, make bairs sweetspot for knockback harder to get OR tone down knockback on the sweetspot.

Really, your sweetspot ideas are cool you just have way too many. He feels like a slow fat Marth who cast spells. Since Ganondorf's only tool to control enemy placement is double jump, he needs more well-rounded moves since making him faster or making double jump longer just enables his moves to drag out, which feels counter productive to the quick speed of PM.
-----

As for Sword Ganon, I changed my mind on nair. It doesn't need to be any faster because it hits like Marth's dair when it tippers which is downright OP. I can just stand on ledge and shorthop nair and immediately spike anyone who attempts to recover from below. It's speed and damage is fine, just don't let it spike so badly. Nair should never give such a good benefit for a tipper.
- k ya i was thinking about that tip. i want it to be a BIT more powerful than the rest of the sword, but i guess it can use some toning down. Would u think that concept could work fine with some tweaking?

In addition to Sword Ganon, I would like the court to record the damages nair and fsmash do and really ponder how a move with such speed, powerful tippers, and coverage really should be doing (at its best) double the damage of a fully charged fsmash. I cry everytime I see Ganondorf attempt to elbow someone while holding his sword like an awkward smartphone punch and see those puny hitboxes.
- so again what attacks need damage %'s toned down?
- From this comment im seeing the f-smash elbow as well as the 2nd sword swing attack?
- any other that need toning down?
Didn't know fsmash had a second hit. Now its good.

Since he has such range, you could do to reduce tipper damage on a whole. He either hits on the small scale like he has some powerful combo setups he does not or he hits like Ike on a good day plus spikes and meteors.
- so would you say his "A" attacks need to do less damage on the tips?
- are the "B" attacks fine since theyre specials and such?

I for one will argue for Side-B meteors to be kept the way they are. They're hilarious and far more reliable than dair. Really, dair is kinda useless now that I can use side-B for deadly reads (especially since it does the opposite of kill people when it doesn't tipper and sweetspot).
- should i make down air easier to sweetspot?
No. It's okay the way it is. If he has zero bad moves he'd be S tier.

- im slightly confused about this comparison
- just not sure what ur getting at, probably just a brain fart on my end

Basically because of the overabundant sweetspots, key moves that are fast, deal heavy damage, and are easy to sweetspot become the extent of the practical moveset, and when that is removed, you are left with a bad character who needed those crutches to be where he was. Kirby has really gimmicky moves and a good aerial punish game, so his neutral basically becomes what gimmick will he use this time.

How can I best say it:
-Range
-Power
-Combos
-Sweetspots
-Speed

Pick three and make the last two his crutches. PM Dorf has Power, Combos, no range outside of key moves, some sweet spots, and a few fast moves so that he won't get constantly bullied all of the time.

Sword Ganon currently has Power, Extra Range, Extra Sweetspots, and On Hit Cancel for Combos. Which is kinda stupid when I can chain 4-5 nairs into each other.

OOT Ganon currently has Sweetspots, Wonky Range, and traded some Power for Windboxes and Hard To Aim with horrid Combo capacity and low Speed.

I can't name exact moves right now but when it comes to OOT, he needs less extreme sweet/normal differences.

Sword Ganon needs less powerful tippers (he can keep the extra effects, but OHC is debatable) and weaker hits that aren't sweetspots to counteract. Speed is not an issue since he can make the entire neutral area of Yoshi's Island unsafe with just the flick of a c stick. And Since Speed is not an issue, for the formula above, consider his Range as a two count.

Since Sword Ganon is meant to have that range with that tipper, he should keep Power, Combos, or his Sweetspots. He can't have them all because when you do you get stupid stuff like killing a Zelda at 80% with a bair.

In other words, less sweetspots and more like Ike, less damage and sweetspots and more like Marth, much less power but keep the sweetspots on some moves, or a light mixture of the three. There's also another route, change his mechanics. He has a lot of dunks, so do you want to make him a combo guy with some heavy hits like DK? Because currently you're asking for humongous range, fair power, but an unfair sweetspot mechanic to go with it. He just either hits just fine or OP.

What do you want these characters to be and what should their greatest setbacks be? Who should they be worst at fighting? Who should they be best at?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

- what would you suggest other than changing the angle?
Not much else comes to mind.

- what do you mean exactly? the angle of what?
The angle the attack comes from. Bair and fair go at the same angle it seems. That makes landing fair either tricky or insanely easy.

OOT fights as if he should ALWAYS be above the opponent. So when he's below them, he suffers a bit because:

Nair is nice for racking up damage but lacks purpose on its final hit. It needs more knockback.
- if you finish nair in the air it is a light meteor. Because you can hold the attack in air, if i made the meteor more powerful i feel it would be way OP. Use it off stage to suck enemies in and then have them fall to their dooms at high damages
- That being said maybe i need to make it more powerful?

Again, I would really appreciate it if there was some moveset documentation. I had no idea it did anything besides hurt a bunch and restrict my movement.

Side-B needs bigger hitboxes or bigger windboxes because it is in the category of never useful compared to other moves.
- In project m his cape is weaker than mine
- the real use of this attack is in the air - if you connect with the body hitboxes, it is a semi spike
- im thinking of making him have armour at the start of the animation
- i dont think it needs to be more powerful but i could be wrong - what would you say it needs to do?

That would be nice to know. Also, armor sounds lovely. One hit sounds good. Because of its range, if you give it too much armor he can just jump offstage and become a floating iron wall of reversals.

I still don't understand what ftilt is even supposed to do.
- a direct hit damages enemies similairly to vBrawl ganons jab
- A charged version has wind boxes which should be used to push enemies away - especially recovering enemies (Edge guarding)

I'll try it out for edgeguarding and get back to you.

Down-B deserves to be a killmove. It isn't. It should be.
- really? Like down b in the air? or the uppercut?

Uppercut. I should have been more specific. Air Down B is just fine.

Forward smash has too much charge time for too little payoff. Why not use down smash? It does similar damage and has far less charge time to be devastating. Maybe it should be angle-able.
- the tip of f smash is the money maker (all electric attacks are this way except down smash)
- Do you think it needs to be stronger still?

The problem with so many sweetspot moves is that if I can't land my sweetspot, what good is the move?
Hopefully the answer is mediocre otherwise the move is shelved unless I can get a hard read.
I don't want him to be "stronger" I want him to be more balanced in the sense of a scale. Some moves should have the tippers deal less but non-tippers deal more or just have no sweetspots at all like up-tilt. It's reliable.

Up-tilt is nice for damage racking up but not for getting the pressure off of you.
- any suggestions here?
- Its good to start air combos too...

Okay, so when I get that air combo going, I'm left with pretty much nair if I'm out of range for a fair sweetspot.

His cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die BEST moves, fair and dair, require him to be above someone to hit. Just make them different, but not opposite angles.
- What do u mean?

Like having fair go from W to E instead of from W to SE while keeping bair going from E to SW.

Meanwhile...

Every throw besides back throw is a joke. Back throw is insanely overpowered in damage and knockback. Try less 15~20% more 5~10%.
- i know back throw needs toning down
- what would you suggest? maybe a stronger f throw?
- cant make all the throws super kills
- maybe up or down throw need angle altering? What would you suggest?

Again, I don't want him stronger. His sweetspots hit like a tank. But I want him more versatile.

Forward throw and back throw are kinda like Ness.

Down throw and Up throw are usually combo throws. They should put people in disadvantageous situations for tech chases and combos.
Down-B never seems to make anyone bounce. Up-B, however, doesn't really do much besides be a bouncy Down-B

- huh?

Got confused. Down-THROW never does what it should, and make people bounce off the ground.

Up-THROW does.

But because of the endlag, its hard to hit em with something of use.

I could use dair, but his slow mobility limits sweetspot dairs as an option. The reason Lucas has such teeny and demanding hitboxes is because he has the mobility to overcome his sub-par size and a move that makes his hitboxes bigger.

Neutral B is the exact opposite of helpful in almost any scenario.
- the single orb is the most useful right now- but im aware it needs work
- any suggestions (on the single orb shot, the charge phase, OR the fully charged attack?)
Global accuracy increase.
Spread the extra orbs out more.
- its meant to bring enemies far away close to you/stun them so you can attack.
I can't get it to land at all.

My overall recommendation is less multi-hits, more knockback, more horizontal coverage in midair. Change the angle and the percents, because 15% on an attack that leads into itself (fair) is incredibly stupid. I suggest changing fair to shoot forward instead of down forward. Also keep in mind that the longer it takes me in startup to hit someone the more bang I am expecting for my buck otherwise that move is kinda pointless. On Sword Ganon, neutral B hits for only 15 but the move has so much versatility and knockback I'd use it in neutral for sure as a hard read if I had the timing. Forward smash, with its small hitbox and small damage, not so much. Unless I want to do the riskiest juggle ever by the endlag, I don't see a reason to anything other than spam jabs, down B, down smash, and back throw on ground, use nair exclusively as a neutral destroyer, and fair and bair to kill if I think down throw is too mean.
- this is something i want to know more about - what do you think about the damage %'s in general? What attacks are too high?
- however f and back air have a lot of horizontal coverage dont they?
Yes, if you are above the opponent. Otherwise, fair is actually either useless or amazing depending on the sweetspot whereas bair is much much easier to deal huge damage with. When I keep saying change the angle I mean change fair's angle so you have at least one aerial which can hit someone that isn't below you besides nairing into them.

- Ive aimed for anything with multi hits to be balancd out by making the MAIN hit do less damage. Other than attack100 (which needs work) im not sure how much the multi hits are really used to rack up damage.

- test out the knockback more on some attacks.. i think you havent yet caught on to the sweetspots.
That is true. I'd really appreciate it if you provided more documentation.

- that being said what attacks specifically do you think SHOULD 100% have more knockback (maybe removing some sweetspots and making them more rounded would be a good idea?)
JAB. It is unquestionably overpowered.
And for more allroundedness, fair knockback wise, forward smash knockback wise, make bairs sweetspot for knockback harder to get OR tone down knockback on the sweetspot.

Really, your sweetspot ideas are cool you just have way too many. He feels like a slow fat Marth who cast spells. Since Ganondorf's only tool to control enemy placement is double jump, he needs more well-rounded moves since making him faster or making double jump longer just enables his moves to drag out, which feels counter productive to the quick speed of PM.
-----


As for Sword Ganon, I changed my mind on nair. It doesn't need to be any faster because it hits like Marth's dair when it tippers which is downright OP. I can just stand on ledge and shorthop nair and immediately spike anyone who attempts to recover from below. It's speed and damage is fine, just don't let it spike so badly. Nair should never give such a good benefit for a tipper.
- k ya i was thinking about that tip. i want it to be a BIT more powerful than the rest of the sword, but i guess it can use some toning down. Would u think that concept could work fine with some tweaking?

In addition to Sword Ganon, I would like the court to record the damages nair and fsmash do and really ponder how a move with such speed, powerful tippers, and coverage really should be doing (at its best) double the damage of a fully charged fsmash. I cry everytime I see Ganondorf attempt to elbow someone while holding his sword like an awkward smartphone punch and see those puny hitboxes.
- so again what attacks need damage %'s toned down?
- From this comment im seeing the f-smash elbow as well as the 2nd sword swing attack?
- any other that need toning down?
Didn't know fsmash had a second hit. Now its good.

Since he has such range, you could do to reduce tipper damage on a whole. He either hits on the small scale like he has some powerful combo setups he does not or he hits like Ike on a good day plus spikes and meteors.
- so would you say his "A" attacks need to do less damage on the tips?
- are the "B" attacks fine since theyre specials and such?

I for one will argue for Side-B meteors to be kept the way they are. They're hilarious and far more reliable than dair. Really, dair is kinda useless now that I can use side-B for deadly reads (especially since it does the opposite of kill people when it doesn't tipper and sweetspot).
- should i make down air easier to sweetspot?
No. It's okay the way it is. If he has zero bad moves he'd be S tier.

Meta wise it seems like there are some really OP moves and some really really bad moves, so right now he feels kinda gimmicky like Kirby. With Kirby the rest of my moveset eventually leads me to my real moveset, dash attack, neutral B, up tilt, down B, shorthop side B, and up B when I'm not in maximum gimp mode. Which is of course, at low percents, initiated by neutral B
- im slightly confused about this comparison
- just not sure what ur getting at, probably just a brain fart on my end

Basically because of the overabundant sweetspots, key moves that are fast, deal heavy damage, and are easy to sweetspot become the extent of the moveset, and when that is nerfed, you are left with a bad character. Kirby has really gimmicky moves and a good aerial punish game, so his neutral basically becomes what gimmick will he use this time.

How can I best say it:
-Range
-Power
-Combos
-Sweetspots
-Speed

Pick three and make the last two his crutches. PM Dorf has Power, Combos, no range outside of key moves, some sweet spots, and a few fast moves so that he won't get constantly bullied all of the time.

Sword Ganon currently has Power, Extra Range, Extra Sweetspots, and On Hit Cancel for Combos. Which is kinda stupid when I can chain 4-5 nairs into each other.

OOT Ganon currently has Sweetspots, Wonky Range, and traded some Power for Windboxes and Hard To Aim with horrid Combo capacity and low Speed.

I can't name exact moves right now but when it comes to OOT, he needs less extreme sweet/normal differences.

Sword Ganon needs less powerful tippers (he can keep the extra effects, but OHC is debatable) and weaker hits that aren't sweetspots to counteract. Speed is not an issue since he can make the entire neutral area of Yoshi's Island unsafe with just the flick of a c stick. And Since Speed is not an issue, for the formula above, consider his Range as a two count.

Since Sword Ganon is meant to have that range with that tipper, he should keep Power, Combos, or his Sweetspots. He can't have them all because when you do you get stupid stuff like killing a Zelda at 80% with a bair.

In other words, less sweetspots and more like Ike, less damage and sweetspots and more like Marth, much less power but keep the sweetspots on some moves, or a light mixture of the three. There's also another route, change his mechanics. He has a lot of dunks, so do you want to make him a combo guy with some heavy hits like DK?

What do you want these characters to be and what should their greatest setbacks be? Who should they be worst at fighting? Who should they be best at?

Still reading.. but the move documentation is on my blog. theres a moveslist page!

 

[devnew]

when i used the rsbe that you provided i can nolonger use y on asl stages. how do i do about removing this?
(Y bans all stages)
(i dont need Y to ban any stage)

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

- that being said what attacks specifically do you think SHOULD 100% have more knockback (maybe removing some sweetspots and making them more rounded would be a good idea?)

Jab, or attack100?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

when i used the rsbe that you provided i can nolonger use y on asl stages. how do i do about removing this?
(Y bans all stages)
(i dont need Y to ban any stage)

Um.. i duno why this is happening. Thats odd.

You could add the one code into your GCT that ive posted a few times on this thread. If you can look around for it that would be good cause im doing a million things and have to leave soon!

 

[WEK-Sector Pirate]

I got it to work, but my sound is still broken,any help?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

- what would you suggest other than changing the angle?
Not much else comes to mind.

- what do you mean exactly? the angle of what?
The angle the attack comes from. Bair and fair go at the same angle it seems. That makes landing fair either tricky or insanely easy.

OOT fights as if he should ALWAYS be above the opponent. So when he's below them, he suffers a bit because:

Nair is nice for racking up damage but lacks purpose on its final hit. It needs more knockback.
- if you finish nair in the air it is a light meteor. Because you can hold the attack in air, if i made the meteor more powerful i feel it would be way OP. Use it off stage to suck enemies in and then have them fall to their dooms at high damages
- That being said maybe i need to make it more powerful?

Again, I would really appreciate it if there was some moveset documentation. I had no idea it did anything besides hurt a bunch and restrict my movement.

Side-B needs bigger hitboxes or bigger windboxes because it is in the category of never useful compared to other moves.
- In project m his cape is weaker than mine
- the real use of this attack is in the air - if you connect with the body hitboxes, it is a semi spike
- im thinking of making him have armour at the start of the animation
- i dont think it needs to be more powerful but i could be wrong - what would you say it needs to do?

That would be nice to know. Also, armor sounds lovely. One hit sounds good. Because of its range, if you give it too much armor he can just jump offstage and become a floating iron wall of reversals.

I still don't understand what ftilt is even supposed to do.
- a direct hit damages enemies similairly to vBrawl ganons jab
- A charged version has wind boxes which should be used to push enemies away - especially recovering enemies (Edge guarding)

I'll try it out for edgeguarding and get back to you.

Down-B deserves to be a killmove. It isn't. It should be.
- really? Like down b in the air? or the uppercut?

Uppercut. I should have been more specific. Air Down B is just fine.

Forward smash has too much charge time for too little payoff. Why not use down smash? It does similar damage and has far less charge time to be devastating. Maybe it should be angle-able.
- the tip of f smash is the money maker (all electric attacks are this way except down smash)
- Do you think it needs to be stronger still?

The problem with so many sweetspot moves is that if I can't land my sweetspot, what good is the move?
Hopefully the answer is mediocre otherwise the move is shelved unless I can get a hard read.
I don't want him to be "stronger" I want him to be more balanced in the sense of a scale. Some moves should have the tippers deal less but non-tippers deal more or just have no sweetspots at all like up-tilt. It's reliable.

Up-tilt is nice for damage racking up but not for getting the pressure off of you.
- any suggestions here?
- Its good to start air combos too...

Okay, so when I get that air combo going, I'm left with pretty much nair if I'm out of range for a fair sweetspot.

His cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die BEST moves, fair and dair, require him to be above someone to hit. Just make them different, but not opposite angles.
- What do u mean?

Like having fair go from W to E instead of from W to SE while keeping bair going from E to SW.

Meanwhile...

Every throw besides back throw is a joke. Back throw is insanely overpowered in damage and knockback. Try less 15~20% more 5~10%.
- i know back throw needs toning down
- what would you suggest? maybe a stronger f throw?
- cant make all the throws super kills
- maybe up or down throw need angle altering? What would you suggest?

Again, I don't want him stronger. His sweetspots hit like a tank. But I want him more versatile.

Forward throw and back throw are kinda like Ness.

Down throw and Up throw are usually combo throws. They should put people in disadvantageous situations for tech chases and combos.
Down-B never seems to make anyone bounce. Up-B, however, doesn't really do much besides be a bouncy Down-B

- huh?

Got confused. Down-THROW never does what it should, and make people bounce off the ground.

Up-THROW does.

But because of the endlag, its hard to hit em with something of use.

I could use dair, but his slow mobility limits sweetspot dairs as an option. The reason Lucas has such teeny and demanding hitboxes is because he has the mobility to overcome his sub-par size and a move that makes his hitboxes bigger.

Neutral B is the exact opposite of helpful in almost any scenario.
- the single orb is the most useful right now- but im aware it needs work
- any suggestions (on the single orb shot, the charge phase, OR the fully charged attack?)
Global accuracy increase.
Spread the extra orbs out more.
- its meant to bring enemies far away close to you/stun them so you can attack.
I can't get it to land at all.

- this is something i want to know more about - what do you think about the damage %'s in general? What attacks are too high?
SWORD Bair and fair hit worse than Ike or Marth when sweetspotted and hit like Ike when they don't.
SWORD Up-air on sweetspot. Why does that have one and why does it kill when it does?

- however f and back air have a lot of horizontal coverage dont they?
Yes, if you are above the opponent. Otherwise, fair is actually either useless or amazing depending on the sweetspot whereas bair is much much easier to deal huge damage with. When I keep saying change the angle I mean change fair's angle so you have at least one aerial which can hit someone that isn't below you besides nairing into them.

- Ive aimed for anything with multi hits to be balancd out by making the MAIN hit do less damage. Other than attack100 (which needs work) im not sure how much the multi hits are really used to rack up damage.

- test out the knockback more on some attacks.. i think you havent yet caught on to the sweetspots.
That is true. I'd really appreciate it if you provided more documentation.

- that being said what attacks specifically do you think SHOULD 100% have more knockback (maybe removing some sweetspots and making them more rounded would be a good idea?)
JAB. It is unquestionably overpowered.
And for more allroundedness, fair knockback wise, forward smash knockback wise, make bairs sweetspot for knockback harder to get OR tone down knockback on the sweetspot.

Really, your sweetspot ideas are cool you just have way too many. He feels like a slow fat Marth who cast spells. Since Ganondorf's only tool to control enemy placement is double jump, he needs more well-rounded moves since making him faster or making double jump longer just enables his moves to drag out, which feels counter productive to the quick speed of PM.
-----

As for Sword Ganon, I changed my mind on nair. It doesn't need to be any faster because it hits like Marth's dair when it tippers which is downright OP. I can just stand on ledge and shorthop nair and immediately spike anyone who attempts to recover from below. It's speed and damage is fine, just don't let it spike so badly. Nair should never give such a good benefit for a tipper.
- k ya i was thinking about that tip. i want it to be a BIT more powerful than the rest of the sword, but i guess it can use some toning down. Would u think that concept could work fine with some tweaking?

In addition to Sword Ganon, I would like the court to record the damages nair and fsmash do and really ponder how a move with such speed, powerful tippers, and coverage really should be doing (at its best) double the damage of a fully charged fsmash. I cry everytime I see Ganondorf attempt to elbow someone while holding his sword like an awkward smartphone punch and see those puny hitboxes.
- so again what attacks need damage %'s toned down?
- From this comment im seeing the f-smash elbow as well as the 2nd sword swing attack?
- any other that need toning down?
Didn't know fsmash had a second hit. Now its good.

Since he has such range, you could do to reduce tipper damage on a whole. He either hits on the small scale like he has some powerful combo setups he does not or he hits like Ike on a good day plus spikes and meteors.
- so would you say his "A" attacks need to do less damage on the tips?
- are the "B" attacks fine since theyre specials and such?

I for one will argue for Side-B meteors to be kept the way they are. They're hilarious and far more reliable than dair. Really, dair is kinda useless now that I can use side-B for deadly reads (especially since it does the opposite of kill people when it doesn't tipper and sweetspot).
- should i make down air easier to sweetspot?
No. It's okay the way it is. If he has zero bad moves he'd be S tier.

- im slightly confused about this comparison
- just not sure what ur getting at, probably just a brain fart on my end

Basically because of the overabundant sweetspots, key moves that are fast, deal heavy damage, and are easy to sweetspot become the extent of the practical moveset, and when that is removed, you are left with a bad character who needed those crutches to be where he was. Kirby has really gimmicky moves and a good aerial punish game, so his neutral basically becomes what gimmick will he use this time.

How can I best say it:
-Range
-Power
-Combos
-Sweetspots
-Speed

Pick three and make the last two his crutches. PM Dorf has Power, Combos, no range outside of key moves, some sweet spots, and a few fast moves so that he won't get constantly bullied all of the time.

Sword Ganon currently has Power, Extra Range, Extra Sweetspots, and On Hit Cancel for Combos. Which is kinda stupid when I can chain 4-5 nairs into each other.

OOT Ganon currently has Sweetspots, Wonky Range, and traded some Power for Windboxes and Hard To Aim with horrid Combo capacity and low Speed.

I can't name exact moves right now but when it comes to OOT, he needs less extreme sweet/normal differences.

Sword Ganon needs less powerful tippers (he can keep the extra effects, but OHC is debatable) and weaker hits that aren't sweetspots to counteract. Speed is not an issue since he can make the entire neutral area of Yoshi's Island unsafe with just the flick of a c stick. And Since Speed is not an issue, for the formula above, consider his Range as a two count.

Since Sword Ganon is meant to have that range with that tipper, he should keep Power, Combos, or his Sweetspots. He can't have them all because when you do you get stupid stuff like killing a Zelda at 80% with a bair.

In other words, less sweetspots and more like Ike, less damage and sweetspots and more like Marth, much less power but keep the sweetspots on some moves, or a light mixture of the three. There's also another route, change his mechanics. He has a lot of dunks, so do you want to make him a combo guy with some heavy hits like DK? Because currently you're asking for humongous range, fair power, but an unfair sweetspot mechanic to go with it. He just either hits just fine or OP.

What do you want these characters to be and what should their greatest setbacks be? Who should they be worst at fighting? Who should they be best at?

K great feedback! I'll have to analyze everything youve said more closely and put some thought into everything. In the meantime hopefully you're okay to keep playing to see if any of your opinions change (just cause some of the issue might be learning curve). Thats not to say your points arent valid, theyre totally making me ponder everything!


Now a couple things i wanted to ask again to confirm...

so you didnt specifically say i need to drop damage %'s on anything other than (i think) sword up and back air. Is that all? Are all my other attacks fine damage wise?

On that same note though, you also mentioned when f air and back air hit properly theyre worse than marth, but when they dont sweetspot theyre better than ike? Are you sure? Cause the back air is pretty danm strong with the sweetspot, and not that strong on the shaft.. F-air is much weaker and more meant as a range aerial poke. The sweetspot is more just to just create a bit extra distance. Maybe i misunderstood your points?

also you dont think up air should have a tipper at all? i kinda like how it works - what is the problem you're feeling with it?

next, sword nair - if i eased up on the tip would that be fine? I didn't see a response to that part

for oot ganon, up and down throw
Should they be flipped?
Do i need to change their trajectory after the bounce?

you also didnt comment further (from what i can see) on the multi hits issue. i asked about


I think thats everything i wanted to clear up.

Thanks again


Edit: I know this msg is longer than the previous 2 i posted, so just make sure u dont miss those as well when you see your notifications!

(actually its just one you didn't respond to yet - you liked the one about the moveset list )

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

This is honestly a super great mod! Playing Ganondorf has never felt more like playing Ganondorf.

Just curious, do Ganondorf skins work with Sword Ganondorf or do they have to be custom made for the mod?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

This is honestly a super great mod! Playing Ganondorf has never felt more like playing Ganondorf.

Just curious, do Ganondorf skins work with Sword Ganondorf or do they have to be custom made for the mod?

Right now they have to be the same ones ive provided

 

[Patcheresu]

K great feedback! I'll have to analyze everything youve said more closely and put some thought into everything. In the meantime hopefully you're okay to keep playing to see if any of your opinions change (just cause some of the issue might be learning curve). Thats not to say your points arent valid, theyre totally making me ponder everything!


Now a couple things i wanted to ask again to confirm...

so you didnt specifically say i need to drop damage %'s on anything other than (i think) sword up and back air. Is that all? Are all my other attacks fine damage wise?

I think Sword Ganon would not suffer from losing a global -5% on anything that isn't already 6% or below. His tippers kill at 80%. That is unbelievably broken. Otherwise, his moveset is okay besides On Hit Canceled Nairs, which I am still wary about.

What I was trying to communicate is that the reason why Ganondorf should hit hard is because his damage makes up for his weaknesses. Sword Ganon lacks these weaknesses, so the damage feels extraordinarily powerful at times.

On that same note though, you also mentioned when f air and back air hit properly theyre worse than marth, but when they dont sweetspot theyre better than ike? Are you sure? Cause the back air is pretty danm strong with the sweetspot, and not that strong on the shaft.. F-air is much weaker and more meant as a range aerial poke. The sweetspot is more just to just create a bit extra distance. Maybe i misunderstood your points?

I was referring to Sword Ganon when I compared the damage to Marth and Ike. When I said "worse" I meant "worse for the guy getting destroyed".

If you alter fair's trajectory such that it doesn't string into itself, its fine. I just really wish both fair and bair were not at the same angle.

Yes, I am absolutely sure they're better than Ike. It hits like a better version of Normal PM Ganondorf's backair. I have no desire to ever hit the sourspot and would automatically aim for the sweetspot by default given the move's range.

also you dont think up air should have a tipper at all? i kinda like how it works - what is the problem you're feeling with it?
Because it is a kill move. The problem with every move having a tipper, is that you can't just make every move he has have insane range, combo capabilities, and have a sweetspot that kills at 80%. It is super broken. Try to pick a single one per move from that list of three. Two is on the edge of broken, three is completely broken.

next, sword nair - if i eased up on the tip would that be fine? I didn't see a response to that part
Your website promised sword nair had no tipper. Also, the problem is that it On Hit Cancels and spikes extraordinarily hard. It should do neither of these to be balanced given its speed given its range. It's comparable to Shulk's or Ike's so use those as a good comparison. (Yes I meant Sm4sh Shulk).

for oot ganon, up and down throw
Should they be flipped?
Do i need to change their trajectory after the bounce?
I am trying to tell you that the up throw and down throw don't work as possibly intended. Down-throw will never bounce anyone off of the ground like every other character's down throw including Sword Ganon

you also didnt comment further (from what i can see) on the multi hits issue. i asked about
I will stand by my earlier statement of less multi-hit more combos. I'd rather moves be faster, smaller, and hit a max of two times.

You keep not responding when I say jab is extremely broken. Jab is extremely broken. Please make the knockback on it send people away from Ganondorf and away from the vacuum as well (so behind him). I watched someone Smash DI as hard as they could, and on flat ground, they couldn't get out for 40 damage. I can think of one move that does 40 damage in PM. It's Oil Panic.

---

I apologize, but over time my opinions keep changing. For the most part, I can say given learning curve time, yes Sword Ganon is very broken. He deals far too much damage and knock-back especially on tipper. If he's going to hit as fast as Marth or try and space people out like Marth, with more range than Marth, he should probably hit as hard as Marth.

Dair is fine. Normal Ganon can meteor for far less with dair. Really, in hindsight, the moves I'd say aren't too powerful are dair, neutral B, side B, down B, up B, up-air (excluding the tipper), up-tilt, ftilt, downtilt, down taunt + a, and jab which actually needs a buff.

When it comes to OOT Ganon, I have a harder time really placing it. When it comes to bair, the sweetspot really doesn't matter. It's still incredibly useful without it. Just that I usually have absoutely no problem whatsoever hitting the sweetspot multiple times in a row. And with fair, I can jump + fair, fast fall, repeat until they get so high in damage, they can't be juggled anymore. The sweetspot is really unnecessary. If its supposed to be the crowning jewel of the move, then make not hitting the sweetspot a bad idea for me. These moves are fast, reliable, and easily controllable, so they somewhat help OOT Ganondorf's strong weakness of having his options closed off when he is being jumped at in close range. But they're too good. After you fix neutral B and change up-B, this might change. But right now, certain key attacks because of the lengths you need to go to get a sweetspot, are kinda iffy, like fsmash.

So, just like last post, Sword Ganon needs a good toning down. And OOT Ganon needs to be normalized a little more on his lighning moves (so hitting the final bolt is less powerful and miss it is less painful allowing for more consistency. If these moves were less extreme in damage and KB difference, a lot of these would really be just fine.

(PS: For extra style, consider changing OOT Ganon's grab pummel to him slamming you into the ground instead of whatever it is right now, I can't really tell from the animation, sorry.)

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

K great feedback! I'll have to analyze everything youve said more closely and put some thought into everything. In the meantime hopefully you're okay to keep playing to see if any of your opinions change (just cause some of the issue might be learning curve). Thats not to say your points arent valid, theyre totally making me ponder everything!


Now a couple things i wanted to ask again to confirm...

so you didnt specifically say i need to drop damage %'s on anything other than (i think) sword up and back air. Is that all? Are all my other attacks fine damage wise?

I think Sword Ganon would not suffer from losing a global -5% on anything that isn't already 6% or below. His tippers kill at 80%. That is unbelievably broken. Otherwise, his moveset is okay besides On Hit Canceled Nairs, which I am still wary about.

What I was trying to communicate is that the reason why Ganondorf should hit hard is because his damage makes up for his weaknesses. Sword Ganon lacks these weaknesses, so the damage feels extraordinarily powerful at times.

On that same note though, you also mentioned when f air and back air hit properly theyre worse than marth, but when they dont sweetspot theyre better than ike? Are you sure? Cause the back air is pretty danm strong with the sweetspot, and not that strong on the shaft.. F-air is much weaker and more meant as a range aerial poke. The sweetspot is more just to just create a bit extra distance. Maybe i misunderstood your points?

I was referring to Sword Ganon when I compared the damage to Marth and Ike. When I said "worse" I meant "worse for the guy getting destroyed".

If you alter fair's trajectory such that it doesn't string into itself, its fine. I just really wish both fair and bair were not at the same angle.

Yes, I am absolutely sure they're better than Ike. It hits like a better version of Normal PM Ganondorf's backair. I have no desire to ever hit the sourspot and would automatically aim for the sweetspot by default given the move's range.

also you dont think up air should have a tipper at all? i kinda like how it works - what is the problem you're feeling with it?
Because it is a kill move. The problem with every move having a tipper, is that you can't just make every move he has have insane range, combo capabilities, and have a sweetspot that kills at 80%. It is super broken. Try to pick a single one per move from that list of three. Two is on the edge of broken, three is completely broken.

next, sword nair - if i eased up on the tip would that be fine? I didn't see a response to that part
Your website promised sword nair had no tipper. Also, the problem is that it On Hit Cancels and spikes extraordinarily hard. It should do neither of these to be balanced given its speed given its range. It's comparable to Shulk's or Ike's so use those as a good comparison. (Yes I meant Sm4sh Shulk).

for oot ganon, up and down throw
Should they be flipped?
Do i need to change their trajectory after the bounce?
I am trying to tell you that the up throw and down throw don't work as possibly intended. Down-throw will never bounce anyone off of the ground like every other character's down throw including Sword Ganon

you also didnt comment further (from what i can see) on the multi hits issue. i asked about
I will stand by my earlier statement of less multi-hit more combos. I'd rather moves be faster, smaller, and hit a max of two times.

You keep not responding when I say jab is extremely broken. Jab is extremely broken. Please make the knockback on it send people away from Ganondorf and away from the vacuum as well (so behind him). I watched someone Smash DI as hard as they could, and on flat ground, they couldn't get out for 40 damage. I can think of one move that does 40 damage in PM. It's Oil Panic.

---

I apologize, but over time my opinions keep changing. For the most part, I can say given learning curve time, yes Sword Ganon is very broken. He deals far too much damage and knock-back especially on tipper. If he's going to hit as fast as Marth or try and space people out like Marth, with more range than Marth, he should probably hit as hard as Marth.

Dair is fine. Normal Ganon can meteor for far less with dair. Really, in hindsight, the moves I'd say aren't too powerful are dair, neutral B, side B, down B, up B, up-air (excluding the tipper), up-tilt, ftilt, downtilt, down taunt + a, and jab which actually needs a buff.

When it comes to OOT Ganon, I have a harder time really placing it. Just that I usually have absoutely no problem whatsoever hitting the sweetspot multiple times in a row. And with fair, I can jump + fair, fast fall, repeat until they get so high in damage, they can't be juggled anymore. These moves are fast, reliable, and easily controllable, so they somewhat help OOT Ganondorf's strong weakness of having his options closed off when he is being jumped at in close range. After you fix neutral B and change up-B, this might change. But right now, certain key attacks because of the lengths you need to go to get a sweetspot, are kinda iffy, like fsmash.

So, just like last post, Sword Ganon needs a good toning down. And OOT Ganon needs to be normalized a little more on his lighning moves (so hitting the final bolt is less powerful and miss it is less painful allowing for more consistency.

(PS: For extra style, consider changing OOT Ganon's grab pummel to him slamming you into the ground instead of whatever it is right now, I can't really tell from the animation, sorry.)

Sword Ganon stuff:


the 5-6% global damage loss sounds good. Just to get more specific though, would you say this is more important to the tips? Or just straight up all hit bubbles that do more than 6% already? - and if yes would this go for specials as well (even though the specials were on the good list) or are specials fine in the damage department as well?


Nair - ya i did make a last minute switch to the tip of nair. I was trying it out and liked it, i did have a feeling it would need toning down though. Is the tip the MAIN issue? Like is the trajectory of the shaft fine as far as you can tell so far? (i know you said the on hit cancels are another problem, i have that in mind too!)


F and Bair - i realised you were talking about sword ganon here What i didnt get was worse meant for the enemy - did u mean better for the enemy as well?

- to remedy this, would you say i should make the shaft hits more powerful, and the tips weaker?

- What would you say about the trajectories of the shafts vs the tips? Do they need any changing?

- what do you mean about fair stringing into itself? Do you mean you can chace the enemy easily and do another f-air?

- When you say you have no desire to hit the sourspot - isnt that the point? The sourspot sucks, so it's important to aim properly with the tip? Like yes the long range is nice, but you have to actually catch the right spot or you'll hit the sourspot or even completely miss. I actually had some highly skilled players telling me (both ganons) knockback power wasnt high enough, and it should be easier to tip catch the tips, so i slightly buffed the size and knockback. (of course this is all up for change just sayin)

- on the previous point about sourspots - what kind of benefits/rewards would you say sourspots should provide to make you WANT to use the sourspot (cause it seems that is what you were saying was also needed, unless i misunderstood)
- and more specifically what do you think my sourspots need?

Uair- If i toned down the tip would that be acceptable?




OOT ganon stuff:


Does OOT ganon need to have a damage % drop on any attacks?

I'll see if i can tone down the multi hits wisely

I did comment on OOT jab lol thats why at the end of the last msg i mentioned to not miss my previous msg. Anyway i was asking is JAB broken or Attack100.. Now it sounds like it IS attack100 (correct me if im wrong there). I know what i need to fix to be able to escape, it has to do with the trajectories of the hitboxes mostly - and maybe they need to hit less often. I dont think the 1st jab is the issue (if it is jab 1 can u explain a bit more, cause i didnt understand what u meant by the jab should be hitting them "behind him" or whatever). On the attack100 note - other than it catching too well and being un escapable, if that issue is fixed how do u feel about the wind boxes pulling enemies in?

- And any notes on the other wind boxes for f tilt?


For oot pummel - do you mean his catch attack?
and what do u mean by slamming into the ground?



When it comes to OOT Ganon, I have a harder time really placing it. Just that I usually have absoutely no problem whatsoever hitting the sweetspot multiple times in a row.

- which sweetspot are you talking about here F-air?

And with fair, I can jump + fair, fast fall, repeat until they get so high in damage, they can't be juggled anymore.

- So do i need to change this trajectory? or the Base knockback maybe?

These moves are fast, reliable, and easily controllable, so they somewhat help OOT Ganondorf's strong weakness of having his options closed off when he is being jumped at in close range.

- so is this a good thing then? I'm getting mixed msgs here lol.
- What i am thinking is the f and b air need to be nerfed/changed and his other options need buffs - yes?

After you fix neutral B and change up-B, this might change.

- Whats wrong with up b?


OOT Ganon needs to be normalized a little more on his lighning moves (so hitting the final bolt is less powerful and miss it is less painful allowing for more consistency.

- By final bolt do u mean for all the electric attack's tips?
- also are the lightning attacks some of the BIGGEST issues with the darkness attacks being okay-ish other than the specific things you mentioned - like attack100

Also, what do you think off OOT D-air? I was told its TOO GOOD - is this the case? It has a meteor sweetspot at the tip as well - so i feel like THIS sweetspot should stay as is no? Or is there something you'd change here?


Lastly, could you point out to me what OOT attacks are Good to Okay for you (if any), the way you did with Sword Ganon? Just so i have an idea what needs less attention.



I realize opinions will change over time - thats why i urged people to give some time for the learning curve before they start giving opinions

buttt the dialogue is still good. Im making notes, but am giving it time to hear more opinions from more people as well! I like the way you are analysing though it helps me pick your brain a bit and understand the issues, so thanks for that! I appreciate all your feedback!

 

[Patcheresu]

Today, I'm going to do a full write up on these two. It'll be up around 9PM EST at the latest but definitely not before 6PM EST.

Because in that post above and others I keep making key typos and mistakes that marr my points.

For example, still don't know what an Attack 100 is, but yes I mean the Darkness Trap. That's broken.

In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you looked over the percent damage and knockback a move on Sword Ganon does with and without tipper and compare it to characters who hit fast and hard like Ike and Normal Dorf and compare tipper damage to characters like Marth and Roy.

I'd still like to know your design philosophy with these two? What should be their greatest weaknesses and strengths? What is core to their attack style that you don't want to remove? Is it supposed to be like Captain Falcon, where you deliberately miss sweetspots on moves so that you can combo and use sweetspots to kill, but missing a sweetspot is deadly if you opened with a move like knee? Or more like Marth and Roy where you must secure a primary distance from your opponent and the tipper is just icing on the cake?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Today, I'm going to do a full write up on these two. It'll be up around 9PM EST at the latest but definitely not before 6PM EST.

Because in that post above and others I keep making key typos and mistakes that marr my points.

For example, still don't know what an Attack 100 is, but yes I mean the Darkness Trap. That's broken.

In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you looked over the percent damage and knockback a move on Sword Ganon does with and without tipper and compare it to characters who hit fast and hard like Ike and Normal Dorf and compare tipper damage to characters like Marth and Roy.

I'd still like to know your design philosophy with these two? What should be their greatest weaknesses and strengths? What is core to their attack style that you don't want to remove? Is it supposed to be like Captain Falcon, where you deliberately miss sweetspots on moves so that you can combo and use sweetspots to kill, but missing a sweetspot is deadly if you opened with a move like knee? Or more like Marth and Roy where you must secure a primary distance from your opponent and the tipper is just icing on the cake?

Good question. Here's what i'm going for:


Sword ganon
As you said, in a way yes i'd like him to work a bit like c falcon where if you miss the tip in some cases can create combo potential, and when you get the tips (on certain moves) you can finish enemies off.
There are also some attacks where im aiming to give you some spacing as well like f-air (there aren't too many of these I don't think).

One thing about comparing to marth is, marth has a tiny sword and is a tiny man, so I feel like ganon would naturally be a more powerful marth. And co counteract the power he is slower than marth. In this sense he's almost an ikeXmarth crossover.

That being said, what changes do u think I should make in that design philosophy, and/or where do you think I've failed my own design phylosophy?


Oot ganon
First off,I think I agree mostly with normalizing his lightning attacks. I'm thinking still keep the tip ever so slightly more powerful, but make the whole attack more powerful overall.

I want oot ganon to be a good aerial character. I want him to be good at setting up combos in the air (to complement his float mechanic). I also am aiming to give him some good combo tools on the ground to set up air attacks (up tilt and down b fof examole - which is why down b isn't a kill -though at a full charge perhaps I can give it kill power).

I also want him to have a good grab game but be tricky to pull off. I think I need his grab game to be slightly easier, and I need to tone down back throw.

That leaves his darkness attacks. I think they're the least broken (would you agree?). There is some minor tweaking to be done here which is the easiest to do.

Now all this being said the design philosophy for him is going to change. Originally I wanted the air game, and I wanted darkness attacks to be dangerous close up, and electric attacks dangerous from far away (for opponents). This will change a bit as I will normalize most lighting attacks. I also want him to be slow but powerful, with a couple of quicker, weaker attacks that can deal with fast characters (up tilt down tilt jab1 and cape) which could be used for spacing. These were also meant to set up possible finishers like electric tippers or other sweetspots like in air cape. I also gave him stun tools that would leave enemies open for attack - like down smash's shock wave for close range and neutral b at long range. Lastly, most of the multi hits were created for logistic purposes because of the visual concept of attacks i came up with - i'll see how much i can tone down these multi hits.


As a side note, up air is under revision. It's a bit of a place holder now, and a trial attack to see how it feels to everyone.


Hope this wasnt to all over the place, and i hope i didnt miss anything.


PS. Can you try to comment on all my questions from my previous post in your write up if possible? I know you're gona have certain points to make that you have in mind, but I just wana make sure that all the things I'm unsure about are clear as well

Thanks!

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

I haven't actually played as it, and probably could use the rebalancing from what I'm hearing, but thematically it makes a lot of sense that OoT Ganondorf would want to be generally above the opponent at all times, both given his characterization and his boss battle.

 

[mikeyn1gm]

Can't say how many hours i've put into these lol......And thats with me knowing all the tricks and mechanics immediately. The only thing I didn't realize till recently was that OOT Ganon takes double damage when flying which makes sense with his aerial power (In Ocarina of Time he was also powerful but could get his ass handed to at the same time by Link while flying Lmao)

Since I finally gotta get back2 my skool stuff.....imma put some more feedback here:

OOT Ganon:


Rapid Jab:
I may have to agree about the Jab COMBO with what somebody said above. It's one of those things I couldn't talk about immediately because I needed a 2nd player to try this one out (Most of the time a LV9 cpu just wants to let you give it them lol). If it really does so much damage with the continuous hits in the dark cloud and the opponent isn't able to escape when hitting the sticks then it could be a problem. Functionally the move works well which is why I hope you won't change it too much.

Down B:
I really don't think Down B uppercut should be a kill move and I never expected it to be. The purpose of charging the down b is to extend the flying time as you said in the movelist which I was aware of. I take the hit from the uppercut as a small bonus for somebody who approaches. The uppercut isn't even one of Ganon's canon moves lol.

Side B:
Side B is okay (ground and air property attacks). It will still be a low priority move but at the same time......it's not like it's supposed to be right? The only thing I would say is that I feel the reflect box should be larger? or longer? or more in front? idk.......basically most of the time if I reflect something, the timing would be when the projectile gets to ganon's body rather than in front of him with cape. Usually with Mario's cape it would reflect as far as where the cape extends. I take it that your cape has the same properties of Project M's cape because their ganon cape sucks, or at least they made it so that the reflect time is tighter than it should be. But hey, if it stays how it is then it's cool. It's not a big deal, just more of whether you wanna maximize it's expected function while maintaining reason.


Neutral B:
We talked about Fully charged Neutral B already with the other 2 dudes. It's in your hands xD.

Up B:
For Up B sometimes I have a problem recovering back to the stage up from a vertical angle if I'm close to the wall. Usually this is the case with sloped walls and I don't really think you can fix that. I don't think it's too much of an issue though. I take it as "his recovery back to the stage is medium to mediocre since he can already freaking fly with his 2nd jump lol" and you can't give ganon everything. This also notes that picking a stage with curved walls below the ledge is stage advantage against Ganon (a "counterpick" stage against ganon if I said that correctly). Basically if this is what you intend with his recovery then it's all good


Up Tilt:
I think up tilt is fine and it's also one of the things that makes him unique with the range and juggle. If I want to deal with somebody above me or sort of close then I throw out Up Smash, short hop Uair, short hop Dair (then press down to pop em back up or if I'm near the ledge I do the meteor smash variation), Down B or sometimes rarely Down Smash if I'm lucky. There's a lot you can do to replace the "common up tilt" as long as you don't try to play ganon like a common character. You made him very unique and I highly respect something new and functional on the table.


Side tilt:
First I love that you incorporated Ganon's self made Brawl palm strike which I thought would be getting the shaft because the melee jab but you gave it OOT instead Twilight which is cool. The only thing is the Dark push end of it. Now don't get me wrong I understand the function of it and I liked the idea but the thing is that you also made Jab with a Dark push. The problem isn't that they both have the same function somewhat but it's more that it seems much more practical to go for the Jab if I want the push. In my experience I found it more easier to throw out jabs for pushing then charging the Ftilt for a Level 4 or even a Level 3 push. Here's an idea. despite his jab strength in vBrawl.......since it has now upgraded to Ftilt.....give it a small slight buff on the knockback. Just a bit but not so much that it overshadows the power from his thrust punch. Just somewhere still between light-medium knockback. For the purple haze stuff, I would say keep the charging but instead of push being the main function maybe you can give non-knockback/low knockback damaging properties. Basically the more charged, the more damage but if the opponent is close enough then they'll be knocked back by the palm. If this still stays the same then it's fine. This can be one of Ganon's low priority or "character weakness" moves.


Side Smash:
Keep it the same. It doesn't need to be better. It's powerful but low priority move. Ganon is better in the air right? lol


Jab:
speaking of jab....jab is fine by the way. Keep it how it is.


Aerial Attacks
All the Aerial attacks work fine, I have no problems making Upair work. It's so cool how Nair has 3 functions. (The 3rd function only works if you use it while flying). Fair is definitely Ganon's most iconic tool which you can do offensively and defensively while flying. I need just a slight bit more time on this but maybe you should take off the "Kill spot" from the Fair. DAMMIT I LOVE IT SO MUCH but maybe that's a problem LMAO. I think it might still be an awesome move without it and probably keeps thing balanced. It's also possible that it's fine the way it is but I'm so undecided xD. The fact that he takes double damage while flying might make it balanced. For what it's worth Btilt still got some kill strength in it. Dair also already has great sweetspot and that shouldn't be changed.


Grab
Like I said....try making the windbox more powerful pushing back to the grabbox. I think you'll get exactly what you want.


Grab Pummel
DON'T YOU DARE TAKE OFF THE FORCE CHOKE! YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN YOURSELF. THAT **** IS AWESOME! I can't tell you how many times I said "This Bronze Roman dude is a genius" Lmao


Throws
Fthrow is fine......You know what to do with Bthrow but try to maintain it as his best kill move within reasonable strength if you want. I think Dthrow is fine....I see it more as combo starter, but I personally need more time with it since it doesn't always go my way (It could just be DI....so it's probably good). Up throw is....almost questionable but not too much of an issue at the same time. When the chokeslam is finished, the opponent almost always gets up quickly with extremely small time for ganon to follow up. Usually what I do is I shield for their getup attack but Ganon is the type of character I would never shield grab with since he doesn't throw it out instantly so from there I either drop the shield and hope I get em quickly enough with a Dtiltspark to DtiltThrustpunch. The 2nd scenario is for me to shield immediately again but this time do UpSmash "out of shield" (Jump cancel the shield to Upsmash immediately). The 3rd scenario is that I would jump immediately and I would probably be setup for sweetspot Dair. These are all assuming they getup in place with a getup attack or just stand up. If they roll back or something like that then I guess that's a tech chase opportunity right there. Is this what you intended with Upthrow? If it is then it's fine....I just need some more work with it. It wouldn't be the most popular throw for me to go for personally but at the same time I might use randomly to mix things up and even to setup a sweetspot from Dair if I predict that they'll do a getup attack.


Everything else I didn't mention is fine.







Sword Ganon

Jab & Dtilt: Like somebody said earlier in the thread......these sword pokes might be a tad slow. But at the same time it's kinda cool that his kick is faster and it makes sense. I would say to make it slightly faster but not by too much.....just enough that it feels more safe to do as a Jab but still not more reliable than the fast kick if somebody right in yo' face lol. Keep that Sword long range, Kick short range game or else it's just always going to be sword even if they're up close unless they want a kill from the boot. It makes this ganon unique.

Up Smash: The attack is nice......theres just times when even on hit you can still miss the kill. Whether you wanna change that or not is fine. Where it is now with me is a "Wild card kill move" for Sword Ganon.

Side Smash: I believe that there are times that enemy would escape after I got em with the elbow despite the fact that It's supposed to lead into the sword slash. Since the elbow is weak I would of thought that the sword hit is guaranteed. If this is intended then it's cool. If it's not intended then I would try looking at how Toon Link's vBrawl Side smash works since the first hit of it indefinitely sets up for the 2nd hit.

Special Moves: B moves are all good.

Nair: This move is great but you should probably take off the Meteor Smash from this. The reason why is because it's more of a prominent damaging approach tool already and Ganon has other options for meteors like his Air Side B which I thought was very awesome. I think his Dair even has meteor if you time it correctly. But don't take off the On-hit cancel attacks....that really helped with giving this character a fresh feel from the other sword users. Making it more like Marth would be stripping of his uniqueness. If you must do something about the On-hit cancel then just make the attack lesser damaging.



Everything else I didn't mention feels great!






For a 1.0 version release I give this mod a 10/10 within making something awesome while making it balanced.

Remember to make sure that the people have read your moveset stuff and understand the characters fully while giving them a lot of time and patience. I can guarantee you that I have and I will love play it more.

If u want some gameplay vids of anything I mentioned or just seeing how I make the characters work then lemme know

You're an awesome dude. There needs to be more people out there that wants to bring justice to all these characters

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Can't say how many hours i've put into these lol......And thats with me knowing all the tricks and mechanics immediately. The only thing I didn't realize till recently was that OOT Ganon takes double damage when flying which makes sense with his aerial power (In Ocarina of Time he was also powerful but could get his *** handed to at the same time by Link while flying Lmao)

Since I finally gotta get back2 my skool stuff.....imma put some more feedback here:

OOT Ganon:


Rapid Jab:
I may have to agree about the Jab COMBO with what somebody said above. It's one of those things I couldn't talk about immediately because I needed a 2nd player to try this one out (Most of the time a LV9 cpu just wants to let you give it them lol). If it really does so much damage with the continuous hits in the dark cloud and the opponent isn't able to escape when hitting the sticks then it could be a problem. Functionally the move works well which is why I hope you won't change it too much.

Down B:
I really don't think Down B uppercut should be a kill move and I never expected it to be. The purpose of charging the down b is to extend the flying time as you said in the movelist which I was aware of. I take the hit from the uppercut as a small bonus for somebody who approaches. The uppercut isn't even one of Ganon's canon moves lol.

Side B:
Side B is okay (ground and air property attacks). It will still be a low priority move but at the same time......it's not like it's supposed to be right? The only thing I would say is that I feel the reflect box should be larger? or longer? or more in front? idk.......basically most of the time if I reflect something, the timing would be when the projectile gets to ganon's body rather than in front of him with cape. Usually with Mario's cape it would reflect as far as where the cape extends. I take it that your cape has the same properties of Project M's cape because their ganon cape sucks, or at least they made it so that the reflect time is tighter than it should be. But hey, if it stays how it is then it's cool. It's not a big deal, just more of whether you wanna maximize it's expected function while maintaining reason.


Neutral B:
We talked about Fully charged Neutral B already with the other 2 dudes. It's in your hands xD.

Up B:
For Up B sometimes I have a problem recovering back to the stage up from a vertical angle if I'm close to the wall. Usually this is the case with sloped walls and I don't really think you can fix that. I don't think it's too much of an issue though. I take it as "his recovery back to the stage is medium to mediocre since he can already freaking fly with his 2nd jump lol" and you can't give ganon everything. This also notes that picking a stage with curved walls below the ledge is stage advantage against Ganon (a "counterpick" stage against ganon if I said that correctly). Basically if this is what you intend with his recovery then it's all good


Up Tilt:
I think up tilt is fine and it's also one of the things that makes him unique with the range and juggle. If I want to deal with somebody above me or sort of close then I throw out Up Smash, short hop Uair, short hop Dair (then press down to pop em back up or if I'm near the ledge I do the meteor smash variation), Down B or sometimes rarely Down Smash if I'm lucky. There's a lot you can do to replace the "common up tilt" as long as you don't try to play ganon like a common character. You made him very unique and I highly respect something new and functional on the table.


Side tilt:
First I love that you incorporated Ganon's self made Brawl palm strike which I thought would be getting the shaft because the melee jab but you gave it OOT instead Twilight which is cool. The only thing is the Dark push end of it. Now don't get me wrong I understand the function of it and I liked the idea but the thing is that you also made Jab with a Dark push. The problem isn't that they both have the same function somewhat but it's more that it seems much more practical to go for the Jab if I want the push. In my experience I found it more easier to throw out jabs for pushing then charging the Ftilt for a Level 4 or even a Level 3 push. Here's an idea. despite his jab strength in vBrawl.......since it has now upgraded to Ftilt.....give it a small slight buff on the knockback. Just a bit but not so much that it overshadows the power from his thrust punch. Just somewhere still between light-medium knockback. For the purple haze stuff, I would say keep the charging but instead of push being the main function maybe you can give non-knockback/low knockback damaging properties. Basically the more charged, the more damage but if the opponent is close enough then they'll be knocked back by the palm. If this still stays the same then it's fine. This can be one of Ganon's low priority or "character weakness" moves.


Side Smash:
Keep it the same. It doesn't need to be better. It's powerful but low priority move. Ganon is better in the air right? lol


Jab:
speaking of jab....jab is fine by the way. Keep it how it is.


Aerial Attacks
All the Aerial attacks work fine, I have no problems making Upair work. It's so cool how Nair has 3 functions. (The 3rd function only works if you use it while flying). Fair is definitely Ganon's most iconic tool which you can do offensively and defensively while flying. I need just a slight bit more time on this but maybe you should take off the "Kill spot" from the Fair. DAMMIT I LOVE IT SO MUCH but maybe that's a problem LMAO. I think it might still be an awesome move without it and probably keeps thing balanced. It's also possible that it's fine the way it is but I'm so undecided xD. The fact that he takes double damage while flying might make it balanced. For what it's worth Btilt still got some kill strength in it. Dair also already has great sweetspot and that shouldn't be changed.


Grab
Like I said....try making the windbox more powerful pushing back to the grabbox. I think you'll get exactly what you want.


Grab Pummel
DON'T YOU DARE TAKE OFF THE FORCE CHOKE! YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN YOURSELF. THAT **** IS AWESOME! I can't tell you how many times I said "This Bronze Roman dude is a genius" Lmao


Throws
Fthrow is fine......You know what to do with Bthrow but try to maintain it as his best kill move within reasonable strength if you want. I think Dthrow is fine....I see it more as combo starter, but I personally need more time with it since it doesn't always go my way (It could just be DI....so it's probably good). Up throw is....almost questionable but not too much of an issue at the same time. When the chokeslam is finished, the opponent almost always gets up quickly with extremely small time for ganon to follow up. Usually what I do is I shield for their getup attack but Ganon is the type of character I would never shield grab with since he doesn't throw it out instantly so from there I either drop the shield and hope I get em quickly enough with a Dtiltspark to DtiltThrustpunch. The 2nd scenario is for me to shield immediately again but this time do UpSmash "out of shield" (Jump cancel the shield to Upsmash immediately). The 3rd scenario is that I would jump immediately and I would probably be setup for sweetspot Dair. These are all assuming they getup in place with a getup attack or just stand up. If they roll back or something like that then I guess that's a tech chase opportunity right there. Is this what you intended with Upthrow? If it is then it's fine....I just need some more work with it. It wouldn't be the most popular throw for me to go for personally but at the same time I might use randomly to mix things up and even to setup a sweetspot from Dair if I predict that they'll do a getup attack.


Everything else I didn't mention is fine.







Sword Ganon

Jab & Dtilt: Like somebody said earlier in the thread......these sword pokes might be a tad slow. But at the same time it's kinda cool that his kick is faster and it makes sense. I would say to make it slightly faster but not by too much.....just enough that it feels more safe to do as a Jab but still not more reliable than the fast kick if somebody right in yo' face lol. Keep that Sword long range, Kick short range game or else it's just always going to be sword even if they're up close unless they want a kill from the boot. It makes this ganon unique.

Up Smash: The attack is nice......theres just times when even on hit you can still miss the kill. Whether you wanna change that or not is fine. Where it is now with me is a "Wild card kill move" for Sword Ganon.

Side Smash: I believe that there are times that enemy would escape after I got em with the elbow despite the fact that It's supposed to lead into the sword slash. Since the elbow is weak I would of thought that the sword hit is guaranteed. If this is intended then it's cool. If it's not intended then I would try looking at how Toon Link's vBrawl Side smash works since the first hit of it indefinitely sets up for the 2nd hit.

Special Moves: B moves are all good.

Nair: This move is great but you should probably take off the Meteor Smash from this. The reason why is because it's more of a prominent damaging approach tool already and Ganon has other options for meteors like his Air Side B which I thought was very awesome. I think his Dair even has meteor if you time it correctly. But don't take off the On-hit cancel attacks....that really helped with giving this character a fresh feel from the other sword users. Making it more like Marth would be stripping of his uniqueness. If you must do something about the On-hit cancel then just make the attack lesser damaging.



Everything else I didn't mention feels great!






For a 1.0 version release I give this mod a 10/10 within making something awesome while making it balanced.

Remember to make sure that the people have read your moveset stuff and understand the characters fully while giving them a lot of time and patience. I can guarantee you that I have and I will love play it more.

If u want some gameplay vids of anything I mentioned or just seeing how I make the characters work then lemme know

You're an awesome dude. There needs to be more people out there that wants to bring justice to all these characters

Still reading but quick thing about up b - you can also control him a bit the way you can control lucarios up b - difference being you can't see exactly where ganon is. But you'll get the hang of that with play time

 

[mikeyn1gm]

Still reading but quick thing about up b - you can also control him a bit the way you can control lucarios up b - difference being you can't see exactly where ganon is. But you'll get the hang of that with play time

Oh yeah I know..but usually I end up not reaching the ledge and I'm farther from it. Unless you're saying I can curve it like a "C" shape then I will practice it more

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Can't say how many hours i've put into these lol......And thats with me knowing all the tricks and mechanics immediately. The only thing I didn't realize till recently was that OOT Ganon takes double damage when flying which makes sense with his aerial power (In Ocarina of Time he was also powerful but could get his *** handed to at the same time by Link while flying Lmao)

Since I finally gotta get back2 my skool stuff.....imma put some more feedback here:

OOT Ganon:


Rapid Jab:
I may have to agree about the Jab COMBO with what somebody said above. It's one of those things I couldn't talk about immediately because I needed a 2nd player to try this one out (Most of the time a LV9 cpu just wants to let you give it them lol). If it really does so much damage with the continuous hits in the dark cloud and the opponent isn't able to escape when hitting the sticks then it could be a problem. Functionally the move works well which is why I hope you won't change it too much.

Down B:
I really don't think Down B uppercut should be a kill move and I never expected it to be. The purpose of charging the down b is to extend the flying time as you said in the movelist which I was aware of. I take the hit from the uppercut as a small bonus for somebody who approaches. The uppercut isn't even one of Ganon's canon moves lol.

Side B:
Side B is okay (ground and air property attacks). It will still be a low priority move but at the same time......it's not like it's supposed to be right? The only thing I would say is that I feel the reflect box should be larger? or longer? or more in front? idk.......basically most of the time if I reflect something, the timing would be when the projectile gets to ganon's body rather than in front of him with cape. Usually with Mario's cape it would reflect as far as where the cape extends. I take it that your cape has the same properties of Project M's cape because their ganon cape sucks, or at least they made it so that the reflect time is tighter than it should be. But hey, if it stays how it is then it's cool. It's not a big deal, just more of whether you wanna maximize it's expected function while maintaining reason.


Neutral B:
We talked about Fully charged Neutral B already with the other 2 dudes. It's in your hands xD.

Up B:
For Up B sometimes I have a problem recovering back to the stage up from a vertical angle if I'm close to the wall. Usually this is the case with sloped walls and I don't really think you can fix that. I don't think it's too much of an issue though. I take it as "his recovery back to the stage is medium to mediocre since he can already freaking fly with his 2nd jump lol" and you can't give ganon everything. This also notes that picking a stage with curved walls below the ledge is stage advantage against Ganon (a "counterpick" stage against ganon if I said that correctly). Basically if this is what you intend with his recovery then it's all good


Up Tilt:
I think up tilt is fine and it's also one of the things that makes him unique with the range and juggle. If I want to deal with somebody above me or sort of close then I throw out Up Smash, short hop Uair, short hop Dair (then press down to pop em back up or if I'm near the ledge I do the meteor smash variation), Down B or sometimes rarely Down Smash if I'm lucky. There's a lot you can do to replace the "common up tilt" as long as you don't try to play ganon like a common character. You made him very unique and I highly respect something new and functional on the table.


Side tilt:
First I love that you incorporated Ganon's self made Brawl palm strike which I thought would be getting the shaft because the melee jab but you gave it OOT instead Twilight which is cool. The only thing is the Dark push end of it. Now don't get me wrong I understand the function of it and I liked the idea but the thing is that you also made Jab with a Dark push. The problem isn't that they both have the same function somewhat but it's more that it seems much more practical to go for the Jab if I want the push. In my experience I found it more easier to throw out jabs for pushing then charging the Ftilt for a Level 4 or even a Level 3 push. Here's an idea. despite his jab strength in vBrawl.......since it has now upgraded to Ftilt.....give it a small slight buff on the knockback. Just a bit but not so much that it overshadows the power from his thrust punch. Just somewhere still between light-medium knockback. For the purple haze stuff, I would say keep the charging but instead of push being the main function maybe you can give non-knockback/low knockback damaging properties. Basically the more charged, the more damage but if the opponent is close enough then they'll be knocked back by the palm. If this still stays the same then it's fine. This can be one of Ganon's low priority or "character weakness" moves.


Side Smash:
Keep it the same. It doesn't need to be better. It's powerful but low priority move. Ganon is better in the air right? lol


Jab:
speaking of jab....jab is fine by the way. Keep it how it is.


Aerial Attacks
All the Aerial attacks work fine, I have no problems making Upair work. It's so cool how Nair has 3 functions. (The 3rd function only works if you use it while flying). Fair is definitely Ganon's most iconic tool which you can do offensively and defensively while flying. I need just a slight bit more time on this but maybe you should take off the "Kill spot" from the Fair. DAMMIT I LOVE IT SO MUCH but maybe that's a problem LMAO. I think it might still be an awesome move without it and probably keeps thing balanced. It's also possible that it's fine the way it is but I'm so undecided xD. The fact that he takes double damage while flying might make it balanced. For what it's worth Btilt still got some kill strength in it. Dair also already has great sweetspot and that shouldn't be changed.


Grab
Like I said....try making the windbox more powerful pushing back to the grabbox. I think you'll get exactly what you want.


Grab Pummel
DON'T YOU DARE TAKE OFF THE FORCE CHOKE! YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN YOURSELF. THAT **** IS AWESOME! I can't tell you how many times I said "This Bronze Roman dude is a genius" Lmao


Throws
Fthrow is fine......You know what to do with Bthrow but try to maintain it as his best kill move within reasonable strength if you want. I think Dthrow is fine....I see it more as combo starter, but I personally need more time with it since it doesn't always go my way (It could just be DI....so it's probably good). Up throw is....almost questionable but not too much of an issue at the same time. When the chokeslam is finished, the opponent almost always gets up quickly with extremely small time for ganon to follow up. Usually what I do is I shield for their getup attack but Ganon is the type of character I would never shield grab with since he doesn't throw it out instantly so from there I either drop the shield and hope I get em quickly enough with a Dtiltspark to DtiltThrustpunch. The 2nd scenario is for me to shield immediately again but this time do UpSmash "out of shield" (Jump cancel the shield to Upsmash immediately). The 3rd scenario is that I would jump immediately and I would probably be setup for sweetspot Dair. These are all assuming they getup in place with a getup attack or just stand up. If they roll back or something like that then I guess that's a tech chase opportunity right there. Is this what you intended with Upthrow? If it is then it's fine....I just need some more work with it. It wouldn't be the most popular throw for me to go for personally but at the same time I might use randomly to mix things up and even to setup a sweetspot from Dair if I predict that they'll do a getup attack.


Everything else I didn't mention is fine.







Sword Ganon

Jab & Dtilt: Like somebody said earlier in the thread......these sword pokes might be a tad slow. But at the same time it's kinda cool that his kick is faster and it makes sense. I would say to make it slightly faster but not by too much.....just enough that it feels more safe to do as a Jab but still not more reliable than the fast kick if somebody right in yo' face lol. Keep that Sword long range, Kick short range game or else it's just always going to be sword even if they're up close unless they want a kill from the boot. It makes this ganon unique.

Up Smash: The attack is nice......theres just times when even on hit you can still miss the kill. Whether you wanna change that or not is fine. Where it is now with me is a "Wild card kill move" for Sword Ganon.

Side Smash: I believe that there are times that enemy would escape after I got em with the elbow despite the fact that It's supposed to lead into the sword slash. Since the elbow is weak I would of thought that the sword hit is guaranteed. If this is intended then it's cool. If it's not intended then I would try looking at how Toon Link's vBrawl Side smash works since the first hit of it indefinitely sets up for the 2nd hit.

Special Moves: B moves are all good.

Nair: This move is great but you should probably take off the Meteor Smash from this. The reason why is because it's more of a prominent damaging approach tool already and Ganon has other options for meteors like his Air Side B which I thought was very awesome. I think his Dair even has meteor if you time it correctly. But don't take off the On-hit cancel attacks....that really helped with giving this character a fresh feel from the other sword users. Making it more like Marth would be stripping of his uniqueness. If you must do something about the On-hit cancel then just make the attack lesser damaging.



Everything else I didn't mention feels great!






For a 1.0 version release I give this mod a 10/10 within making something awesome while making it balanced.

Remember to make sure that the people have read your moveset stuff and understand the characters fully while giving them a lot of time and patience. I can guarantee you that I have and I will love play it more.

If u want some gameplay vids of anything I mentioned or just seeing how I make the characters work then lemme know

You're an awesome dude. There needs to be more people out there that wants to bring justice to all these characters

Thanks for the awesome feedback! May I ask if you're generally a competitive player or just for fun kinda guy? Just cause I need to know what direction the feedback is coming from. I want this to appeal to competitive as well as casuals to some extent like project m does well in my opinion (even though the super casuals usually don't like pm)

Oh yeah I know..but usually I end up not reaching the ledge and I'm farther from it. Unless you're saying I can curve it like a "C" shape then I will practice it more

Ya u can curve like a c shape!

 

[jackal27]

Maaaaaaan BronzeGreekGod thanks for listening to everyone's feedback. Having something you poured so much time and energy into be picked apart and analyzed must be hard, but I'm glad to see you're handling it well. Excited to see what types of things you've got in mind for good ol Dorf

 

[Patcheresu]

EDIT: I figure some of you may have never seen an .ods file in your life, so I made a Google Docs version of the document (It's a type of Libre Office Calc/MS Office Spreadsheet).
Badaboom.

Google Docs online link here.

LEGEND:
BLACK=N/A
BLUE=Buff pls
JADE(Unused)=Consider buffing
GREEN=Good
YELLOW=Consider nerfing
RED=Nerf pls, see notes

KNOCKBACK? Goes from Inconsistent to more to Fair to Less to Unfair to INSANE/GODLIKE


One thing that was abhorrently obvious was that you tried to use PM 3.6 Dorf's percentages as a starting template. While that is okay for your first release, keep in mind he has three times the range normal Dorf has and thus does not need to have that much power on his faster moves. Hence the global 5% semi-joke I made last thread.

OOT Dorf should not be racking up the percent he does that fast. More like he need as a global 5% loss.

QUESTION TIME:

Spoiler

- Is up tilt not useful at all? Would you suggest a speed up there? I dont want it to be OP so not sure about it!

Up-tilt is most definitely OP. See ods.

- What would you do out of shield normally? Just so i have a better idea of where your problem here lies

Hard to say. That's a cool weakness of his, no super fast options. I recommend you keep it that way. Grab actually needs a nerf. See ods.

- also what do you mean exactly by less chance? Is it cause of the travelling angle?
Meant angle. It was intentional. Please disregard question.

- So youd suggest i speed up a move or 2? Down tilt NEEDS to be slow in my opinion cause when perfected, that tipper can be lethal
Disregard.

- maybe neutral air can be faster, as well as f-air
PLEASE DISREGARD.

- i duno if id make up and back air stronger either cause of their tippers
- thoughts?
I WAS A FOOL (a fool in love, earth angel~) PLEASE DISREGARD.

- as i mentioned i plan on speeding up jab and down tilt - do you think those would be the right choices? or maybe up tilt - or other?
I like him having this weakness, please don't speed up too many moves besides jab or else he'll go straight to S tier.

-So N-air is ok? I was thinking it should be fine cause its got a lot of coverage and its a semi spike. it should be pretty easy to pull off - but would you suggest a slight speed increase?
OH GOD NO, REMOVE ON HIT CANCEL PLEASE

- what would you suggest other than changing the angle [of OOT fair and bair]?
Fixing their high damage. Not much else.

- That being said maybe i need to make it more powerful?
I would lower nair's hit count a little to 10 hits for 10% max.

- i dont think it needs to be more powerful but i could be wrong - what would you say it needs to do?
Less damage and knockback overall. OHKO is fine.

- really? Like down b in the air? or the uppercut?
Down B, see ods.

- Do you think it needs to be stronger still?
F-smash, see ods.

The reason why I keep mentioning fair and bair is because their defense and combo-ability is too good together.

this is something i want to know more about - what do you think about the damage %'s in general? What attacks are too high?
See ods. For the most part tippers are too strong. I'll mention it if a non-tipper is bad.

- that being said what attacks specifically do you think SHOULD 100% have more knockback (maybe removing some sweetspots and making them more rounded would be a good idea?)
Nair on Sword Ganon along with a removal of OHC. Up air Sword. The rest just need to be toned down.

-Would u think that concept could work fine with some tweaking?
Yes, his tippers need to be less extreme because he has like 9-14 killmoves just because of the tippers. Some tippers could be damage and some knockback but either way they all need toning down on both counts, see ods.

- should i make down air easier to sweetspot?
No

- are the "B" attacks fine since theyre specials and such?
See ODS

 

[shikamaru12]

Hey, I added the sawnd files and the code you posted, but now for some random reason OoT Ganon has no voice.

 

[mikeyn1gm]

Thanks for the awesome feedback! May I ask if you're generally a competitive player or just for fun kinda guy? Just cause I need to know what direction the feedback is coming from. I want this to appeal to competitive as well as casuals to some extent like project m does well in my opinion (even though the super casuals usually don't like pm)

I could say both maybe.

Define what "competitive" is for you and what "just for fun" is for you

Are you competitive or a just for fun guy yourself?

 

[GFD]

I played around with this mod for a while in training and against random lvl 9s. As a casual who has never designed a Smash character, I have some input to offer, since you seem to be looking for people's thoughts on these movesets.

Twilight Princess / Sword Ganondorf:

• D-tilt (fists): Reverting this is an unnecessary and alienating nerf.
• Side-b (fists): I fail to see why it's necessary to alter his combo tree this much from vanilla PM. This is easily one of the most alienating changes you could make, as Ganondorf mains will know his existing combo tree out of side-b very well.
• U-tilt (fists): I don't understand why this was changed.
• D-taunt: Is it intentional that you can edge-cancel the taunt right after the sword comes out to be able to use it immediately? This is an AT I actually like a lot, 'cuz it can be pretty useful, but it's also situational and difficult to execute (the timing's pretty strict). I'd keep that the way it is.
• Neutral-b: You can move surprisingly well in the air while using this, which might make it too powerful, as shorthop neutral-b makes it much easier to connect the initial hits that set up into the jump slash. I've also had uncommon situations where I only got a 1% hit during the jump slash.
• Down-b: This needs either an increase in damage or a decrease in startup; probably the latter. As well, the position of the sword and its hitboxes during grounded startup seem to jump around a bit in an unnatural way, which also results in a jagged sword trail.
• Side-b: I love using jump-cancelled grounded side-b as a movement option to give Ganondorf more aerial momentum, but this doesn't work for a small timeframe around when the red overlay shows up in debug mode. It should be fixed so it always gives him more aerial momentum when jc'd. (What's with that red overlay, anyway? I've never seen that colour overlay for a character in PM's debug mode before.) Definitely focus on this AT.
• Jab: This does very little knockback and damage, and is quite slow; it's hard to imagine a situation where it outclasses every other option. Its sole advantage is its range relative to his other grounded options, which isn't much of an advantage. Perhaps you could rework this into a 1-2 jab combo, by using a modified vanilla jab as jab 1, and then the sword thrust for jab 2, since he uses opposite arms for each jab.
• U-tilt & u-smash: These are much too similar. If I were making this, I would swap their animations and purposes. The lightning strike would a high-knockback smash attack. The short upward swing would lose the first hit and some of its knockback and damage, but become faster, to make it a good combo tool.
• U-tilt: I don't understand this gap in its hitboxes.
• D-tilt: Like jab, this also does very little knockback and is quite slow, but it has high damage, which makes it truly bizarre. Every time I've hit with this move, I've been punished for it. I would rework this into a low-damage but fast setup tool that sends victims upwards (like his vanilla PM d-tilt). The animation is also a bit awkward; it looks like the second half of the animation is just the first half reversed.
• F-smash: The 4-frames increased startup compared to vanilla is an interesting decision that I don't understand. I would use the faster startup, and spread the damage output a bit more evenly between the elbow and the sword. You could also decrease the damage and endlag on the first hit, so you don't have to commit if you realise the second hit won't connect.
• D-smash & u-smash: The charging animations for these are unnatural; I assume these are placeholders.
• D-smash: Above 150%, the first hit knocks victims too high to get hit by the second hit, making it punishable on hit.
• Dash attack: I'm curious as to why it has three hitboxes when it doesn't look like it needs them (example). The animation is also kind of awkward and unnatural, specifically how his legs move and catch up to his body really late.
• Aerials: Autocancel windows on all of his aerials seem way too early. It's stupidly easy to wall out opponents with constant autocancelled aerials.
• N-air: Being cancellable on hit is silly. It's already a good move without that. The tipper also needs to be toned down; 14% is way too much damage here.
• F-air: The first frame that the sword trail and hitboxes appear seems weird, and results in a weird bump in the sword trail (frame 2, frame 3). This part of the animation could be fixed up.
• U-air: Due to how far the sword moves on the Z-axis, from the side it sometimes looks like hitboxes should be connecting when they aren't (example). (This might be applicable to more attacks than just u-air, but u-air is where I noticed this.)
• B-air: Its animation feels stiff and unnatural; he just kinda spins around, somehow. No sense of weight to it.
• Wait 2: The transition from wait 2 to idle is stiff and unnatural. Could be animated better.
• D-taunt attack: As it is, it's an unreflectable multi-hit projectile that can easily do a true combo of 21% up close. I would rework it into a single-hit that does less damage the longer it's out, so people can punish more easily instead of having to sit in shield until it goes away. The timing is also too strict; letting it activate when d-taunt and attack are pressed on the same frame would go a long way. It also doesn't seem to activate if d-taunt is released before attack is pressed. Alternatively, you could change it to tap/hold like vanilla PM, ie. hold d-taunt to throw the sword, or tap it to put it away.
• Grab: The huge increase in grab range when his sword is out is an interesting decision that I don't understand. Seems like an unnecessary buff since he already has plenty of range on his normals.

Ocarina of Time / Prince of Darkness Ganondorf:

• Neutral-b: The orbs' trajectory is too horizontal for my liking, but I can also understand why that's useful. Ideally, I'd like to see this become angle-able. I also like the idea mentioned earlier about letting it cancel into down-b.
• Side-b: The voice clip used here seems to be pitched lower and significantly louder than his other voice clips.
• Jab: Jab 1 seems too similar to f-tilt, and the darkness trap seems problematic. I would rework this to have the trap never lose its range, but slowly push victims away from you, so they'll take more damage the closer they are to you when the combo starts, and have an obvious option for expediting escape (sdi away). Also, some part of his shadow seems to wiggle back and forth rapidly during jab combo, which looks silly.
• U-tilt: Victims seem to fall out of the multihit quite easily. I'd personally make this move single-hit, a bit faster, have less endlag and damage, and cover less space horizontally, to make it a quick, precise move for popping victims up into the air. I feel this would give it more utility. Right now it's difficult to see myself ever wanting to use it, because it takes about as long as downsmash but offers little defence on whiff.
• U-smash & d-smash: Why do these moves move him forward slightly? If anything, f-smash would be doing this. As well, just like sword Ganondorf, their charging animations are unnatural; I assume these are placeholders.
• D-smash: I'm curious as to how it'd feel if this move had faster startup and less kill power. Like, Ganondorf just punches the ground without jumping up first (less startup lag), releasing buffed shockwaves to stun opponents and knock them away. This would make it a good "get off me" move, which might have more utility in his moveset.
• N-air: Performing a n-air right after jumpsquat will result in either impact land or a n-air with almost no endlag after the final hit, 'cuz he lands right after the final hitbox comes out. This is a bit silly; he should probably stop moving downwards during his autocancel window so this doesn't happen.
• U-air: While this does feel like a placeholder move, I also think it's good that his u-air doesn't have range and disjoint, as otherwise it'd be too easy for Ganondorf to float around juggling opponents with it.
• F-air & b-air: The landing hitboxes need to be seriously toned down in damage and knockback. It's not difficult to true combo the aerial hitbox into the landing hitbox, which does 27% and 24% for f-air and b-air respectively. This is very overpowered.
• Grabs: With the incredible strength of back-throw and his many other strengths, it's difficult to advise giving him a better grab game than he has now. However, changing how far away the grab boxes are between grab, dash grab, and pivot grab, to give him more options for positioning the grab boxes relative to himself, would be pretty cool. This can already be done a little bit, as dash jump-cancel grab will slide significantly farther forward and thus reach farther than dash grab.
• Dodges: Changing how his ECB moves during these so the camera doesn't jitter painfully would be really nice. Either slowly move his ECB across the whole animation, or just move it once.
• Victory poses: Having the hover SFX play repeatedly during his hover victory pose is weird, since I can't think of any other victory poses that have repeating SFX. His head is also cut off during this pose (example).
• D-taunt: Taunt-cancelling this can be supremely annoying. The laughing voice clip here also seems to be pitched much lower than the rest of his voice clips.
• Air dodge: As a result of the portal effect on his airdodge, his wavedash leaves a visual effect at the point of initiation for quite a while afterward, which looks weird and out of place.

I realise this is mostly critiques, but also including my praise would've made this an even longer read. There's definitely a lot of hard work and polish put into this so far, and some good thought and design here. It's a great start. I also tried not to repeat other advice already given in this thread. And hey, I experienced zero crashes or freezes or any other issues during my entire time using this mod (with items off, using a USB loader on console), so great work on the stability of the code!

 

[mikeyn1gm]

I would refer to GFD and Patcherasu's post on damage percentages. I just realized I didn't talk too much about that and they both sound reasonable. I was too busy to get into percentages I guess and it was much more easier to talk about the more obvious things.

 

[GFD]

I didn't go into damage percentages too much, as Patcheresu's advice in this area seemed to be quite agreeable. Besides, it's difficult to confidently make micro-balancing suggestions for new and in-development characters.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I could say both maybe.

Define what "competitive" is for you and what "just for fun" is for you

Are you competitive or a just for fun guy yourself?

WELL compared to the tourny guys, im just for fun, but me n my friends are super competitive with each other.
To me smash 4 and brawl are designed for REALLY "for fun" people. So i play smash 4 but its boring and unbalanced to me.

Project m is just right.. Does this help define it? lol

 

[Patcheresu]

I didn't go into damage percentages too much, as Patcheresu's advice in this area seemed to be quite agreeable. Besides, it's difficult to confidently make micro-balancing suggestions for new and in-development characters.

I think he has too many strong suits for his damage output.

When you think Ganondorf you should think slow and small range but strong. He's supposed to turtle up a little and punish rather than be offensive. When he does go on the offensive, he's punishable and has low safe options.

These Dorfs have the same damage and knockback but range to spare as well as extra from tippers they never really needed to be good. I don't even know any tech skill and I can dominate with these characters' ridiculous damage gain when they KO so early. If these properties were toned down he could stay exactly this way (I'm so glad someone else agrees on Nair being silly) and I would have no real qualms.

BTW if you need an up-air idea, try a Mario-forward air-speed darkness fist swing overhead kinda like his up-B when he's normal Dorf. The sweetspot is at the first possible frame you can hit it.

 

[Buffskin McThunderfists]

I may have missed if anyone has mentioned this, but the original dorf has had many moves revert back to their brawl forms, which slows him down a fair bit when his sword is not out (downtilt, smash attacks, neutral b, etc.). as well, his side b has an outward knockback on the ground and different aerial effects than the PM version. Is this going to be fixed in future releases, or did this relate to the filesize issues and become something we just have to live with?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I didn't go into damage percentages too much, as Patcheresu's advice in this area seemed to be quite agreeable. Besides, it's difficult to confidently make micro-balancing suggestions for new and in-development characters.

hey what do u mean by autocancel for sword ganons aerials? I'm missing some of the vocab for some techniques i think

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I may have missed if anyone has mentioned this, but the original dorf has had many moves revert back to their brawl forms, which slows him down a fair bit when his sword is not out (downtilt, smash attacks, neutral b, etc.). as well, his side b has an outward knockback on the ground and different aerial effects than the PM version. Is this going to be fixed in future releases, or did this relate to the filesize issues and become something we just have to live with?

Ya ill fix most of that. Its odd cause i didnt alter these though!

 

[mikeyn1gm]

WELL compared to the tourny guys, im just for fun, but me n my friends are super competitive with each other.
To me smash 4 and brawl are designed for REALLY "for fun" people. So i play smash 4 but its boring and unbalanced to me.

Project m is just right.. Does this help define it? lol

oh lol.......We're exactly the same then. Whatever you would call me and you. I don't go to tournys but I play like a tourny person (except I don't edgehog). I play against my friends super competitively

I can only like brawl a little with tripping removed.

I hate smash 4's joke of a roster.......The only thing that appealed to me was 8p Smash but you can't even play it online.

Project M tries to catch the nice gameplay of Melee while maintaining a respectable roster

 

[Buffskin McThunderfists]

one other thing i noticed wasn't mentioned, swordorfs side b when fully charged and timed properly (extra red slash/explosion,~35%, screen shakes, wii has a seizure kind of thing) can instakill any heavyweight off the pedestal (i did bowser consistently). I was thinking perhaps the knockback should be toned down a little bit on the reverse swing due to how easy it is to hit. Forward finish (the explosion) is much more predictable and harder to sweetspot though, so maybe it can stay. This is only for the strongest hits though, the premature attacks or untimed hits are well done, and dont have this issue.

 

[Patcheresu]

hey what do u mean by autocancel for sword ganons aerials? I'm missing some of the vocab for some techniques i think

Let me say this one more time:

When nair hits a person, no matter where they are, as long as it comes in contact with someone, Ganondorf enters a state called On Hit Cancel. This means nair can have its endlag cancelled into another aerial, including nair. In other words, I am guaranteed a sweetspotted nair if I get a sour nair, simply because they get knockbacked just right for the OHC (On Hit Canceled) nair. This is incredibly broken. There are two scenarios this is permitted. A) Turbo Mode. B)Playing Lucario. Neither of these lets you do the same move over and over again.

one other thing i noticed wasn't mentioned, swordorfs side b when fully charged and timed properly (extra red slash/explosion,~35%, screen shakes, wii has a seizure kind of thing) can instakill any heavyweight off the pedestal (i did bowser consistently)..

That's supposed to be a OHKO on purpose.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

• Grabs: With the incredible strength of back-throw and his many other strengths, it's difficult to advise giving him a better grab game than he has now. However, changing how far away the grab boxes are between grab, dash grab, and pivot grab, to give him more options for positioning the grab boxes relative to himself, would be pretty cool. This can already be done a little bit, as dash jump-cancel grab will slide significantly farther forward and thus reach farther than dash grab.
• Dodges: Changing how his ECB moves during these so the camera doesn't jitter painfully would be really nice. Either slowly move his ECB across the whole animation, or just move it once.
• Air dodge: As a result of the portal effect on his airdodge, his wavedash leaves a visual effect at the point of initiation for quite a while afterward, which looks weird and out of place.

I realise this is mostly critiques, but also including my praise would've made this an even longer read. There's definitely a lot of hard work and polish put into this so far, and some good thought and design here. It's a great start. I also tried not to repeat other advice already given in this thread. And hey, I experienced zero crashes or freezes or any other issues during my entire time using this mod (with items off, using a USB loader on console), so great work on the stability of the code!

Remember if i make his grab game a bit better, i'll also be toning down back throw!

for dodges is ecb the transN bone? I cant move the transN the way you're suggesting cause that messes up when dealing with slopes. He clips, and his feet dont know what to do. Im looking for a solution with camera control if possible.

I noticed the air dodge thing just before release, but left it in as a test. is it annoying/ugly? I was thinking it might make sense cause the portal almost was initiated there but was cancelled.

Everything else youve mentioned ive made notes on.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[mikeyn1gm]

Let me say this one more time:

When nair hits a person, no matter where they are, as long as it comes in contact with someone, Ganondorf enters a state called On Hit Cancel. This means nair can have its endlag cancelled into another aerial, including nair. In other words, I am guaranteed a sweetspotted nair if I get a sour nair, simply because they get knockbacked just right for the OHC (On Hit Canceled) nair. This is incredibly broken. There are two scenarios this is permitted. A) Turbo Mode. B)Playing Lucario. Neither of these lets you do the same move over and over again.



That's supposed to be a OHKO on purpose.

I just checked this move again now. As much as I like it and was for keeping it......It does A LOT of damage.

='(


BronzeGreekGod What was your purpose/intention in putting OHC on Nair cuz it definitely got my good attention lol.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

oh lol.......We're exactly the same then. Whatever you would call me and you. I don't go to tournys but I play like a tourny person (except I don't edgehog). I play against my friends super competitively

I can only like brawl a little with tripping removed.

I hate smash 4's joke of a roster.......The only thing that appealed to me was 8p Smash but you can't even play it online.

Project M tries to catch the nice gameplay of Melee while maintaining a respectable roster

you dont like the roster of smash 4? I really like it! With the exception of lucina - what a stupid waste lol

Let me say this one more time:

When nair hits a person, no matter where they are, as long as it comes in contact with someone, Ganondorf enters a state called On Hit Cancel. This means nair can have its endlag cancelled into another aerial, including nair. In other words, I am guaranteed a sweetspotted nair if I get a sour nair, simply because they get knockbacked just right for the OHC (On Hit Canceled) nair. This is incredibly broken. There are two scenarios this is permitted. A) Turbo Mode. B)Playing Lucario. Neither of these lets you do the same move over and over again.

K just making sure thats what autocancel meant - it didnt seem like thats the way it was being used cause it was being referred to all aerials! EDIT: (also i wasnt referreing to your post here lol)

 

[mikeyn1gm]

you dont like the roster of smash 4? I really like it! With the exception of lucina - what a stupid waste lol

Lucina - one of the many pieces of my suffering with the game lol, theres also Dark Pit....others and pretty much whats "not in the game"

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I just checked this move again now. As much as I like it and was for keeping it......It does A LOT of damage.

='(


BronzeGreekGod What was your purpose/intention in putting OHC on Nair cuz it definitely got my good attention lol.

I thought it would be a unique addition. I wanted to have ganon hit people down and then have the opportunity to follow up - what i may do is add more frames between the hit and when you can cancel - as well as altering the power of the hitboxes to help fix this. I may be able to disallow repeating Nair over and over as well