This is going to sound scathing but I'll give it my all. I really like playing with this, but I can't help feeling these things below. Please don't take this to heart, its obvious you put real effort into this mod, and the last thing I want is you to be too offended and dismiss anything I say or worse, get into a funk and stop working on it.
Bair and fair are bad together. Fair is too good but doesn't have the knockback, bair is too good at knockback. So together they can pretty much take a stock by themselves and not be bad at it.
Consider changing the angle.
OOT fights as if he should ALWAYS be above the opponent. So when he's below them, he suffers a bit because:
Up-air hits like a nair. If you could make him shoot something upwards or otherwise make upair actually hit something above him that'd be great. Remember what made Ganondorf's "Construction Boots" up-air so destructive even in melee? It hit with strong knockback, it hit at a decent speed, and it covered the air above him.
Nair is nice for racking up damage but lacks purpose on its final hit. It needs more knockback.
Side-B needs bigger hitboxes or bigger windboxes because it is in the category of never useful compared to other moves.
I still don't understand what ftilt is even supposed to do.
Down-B deserves to be a killmove. It isn't. It should be.
Forward smash has too much charge time for too little payoff. Why not use down smash? It does similar damage and has far less charge time to be devastating. Maybe it should be angle-able.
Up-tilt is nice for damage racking up but not for getting the pressure off of you.
His cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die BEST moves, fair and dair, require him to be above someone to hit. Just make them different, but not opposite angles.
Meanwhile...
His entire moveset seems dedicated to racking up huge damage from multi hit moves in singular usage rather than combos, then finishing with backthrow, bair, or fair. It's an interesting design philosophy but rather incompatible with PM.
Every throw besides back throw is a joke. Back throw is insanely overpowered in damage and knockback. Try less 15~20% more 5~10%.
Down-B never seems to make anyone bounce. Up-B, however, doesn't really do much besides be a bouncy Down-B
Jab combo needs serious work. It seems nigh unstoppable without some pretty solid smash-DI.
Neutral B is the exact opposite of helpful in almost any scenario.
The exception is launching it at someone and having them be pulled towards you, past you, and off ledge for a nice dair.
Otherwise it is far too inaccurate. I haven't been able to tell, but make sure it reflects on perfect shield. I can clearly tell what you were going for, however its angle is far too funny to hit anyone who is standing in a normal position. Some directional control would be nice. I would research how G&W's Chef can be controlled. (B->Down causes the projectiles to only go in low angles, up is the opposite.)
My overall recommendation is less multi-hits, more knockback, more horizontal coverage in midair. Change the angle and the percents, because 15% on an attack that leads into itself (fair) is incredibly stupid. I suggest changing fair to shoot forward instead of down forward. Also keep in mind that the longer it takes me in startup to hit someone the more bang I am expecting for my buck otherwise that move is kinda pointless. On Sword Ganon, neutral B hits for only 15 but the move has so much versatility and knockback I'd use it in neutral for sure as a hard read if I had the timing. Forward smash, with its small hitbox and small damage, not so much. Unless I want to do the riskiest juggle ever by the endlag, I don't see a reason to anything other than spam jabs, down B, down smash, and back throw on ground, use nair exclusively as a neutral destroyer, and fair and bair to kill if I think down throw is too mean.
When it comes to things I loved about OOT Ganon, his taunts, his style, his dair, his up smash, his opening jab, his dtilt.
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As for Sword Ganon, I changed my mind on nair. It doesn't need to be any faster because it hits like Marth's dair when it tippers which is downright OP. I can just stand on ledge and shorthop nair and immediately spike anyone who attempts to recover from below. It's speed and damage is fine, just don't let it spike so badly. Nair should never give such a good benefit for a tipper.
In addition to Sword Ganon, I would like the court to record the damages nair and fsmash do and really ponder how a move with such speed, powerful tippers, and coverage really should be doing (at its best) double the damage of a fully charged fsmash. I cry everytime I see Ganondorf attempt to elbow someone while holding his sword like an awkward smartphone punch and see those puny hitboxes.
Since he has such range, you could do to reduce tipper damage on a whole. He either hits on the small scale like he has some powerful combo setups he does not or he hits like Ike on a good day plus spikes and meteors.
I for one will argue for Side-B meteors to be kept the way they are. They're hilarious and far more reliable than dair. Really, dair is kinda useless now that I can use side-B for deadly reads (especially since it does the opposite of kill people when it doesn't tipper and sweetspot).
Meta wise it seems like there are some really OP moves and some really really bad moves, so right now he feels kinda gimmicky like Kirby. With Kirby the rest of my moveset eventually leads me to my real moveset, dash attack, neutral B, up tilt, down B, shorthop side B, and up B when I'm not in maximum gimp mode. Which is of course, at low percents, initiated by neutral B.
First of all - no worries, i appreciate the feedback and the dialogue!
second here are the things that came to mind when reading (let me know what you think after you read my responses!):
Bair and fair are bad together. Fair is too good but doesn't have the knockback, bair is too good at knockback. So together they can pretty much take a stock by themselves and not be bad at it.
- what would you suggest other than changing the angle?
- I'm considering shortening the range of back air
- also you know onlt the beginning of back air is a kill right? the long range is a light hit
- and to that point f air's tip is the kill spot
Consider changing the angle.
- what do you mean exactly? the angle of what?
OOT fights as if he should ALWAYS be above the opponent. So when he's below them, he suffers a bit because:
Up-air hits like a nair. If you could make him shoot something upwards or otherwise make upair actually hit something above him that'd be great. Remember what made Ganondorf's "Construction Boots" up-air so destructive even in melee? It hit with strong knockback, it hit at a decent speed, and it covered the air above him.
- up air im considering other options for already
Nair is nice for racking up damage but lacks purpose on its final hit. It needs more knockback.
- if you finish nair in the air it is a light meteor. Because you can hold the attack in air, if i made the meteor more powerful i feel it would be way OP. Use it off stage to suck enemies in and then have them fall to their dooms at high damages
- That being said maybe i need to make it more powerful?
Side-B needs bigger hitboxes or bigger windboxes because it is in the category of never useful compared to other moves.
- In project m his cape is weaker than mine
- the real use of this attack is in the air - if you connect with the body hitboxes, it is a semi spike
- im thinking of making him have armour at the start of the animation
- i dont think it needs to be more powerful but i could be wrong - what would you say it needs to do?
I still don't understand what ftilt is even supposed to do.
- a direct hit damages enemies similairly to vBrawl ganons jab
- A charged version has wind boxes which should be used to push enemies away - especially recovering enemies (Edge guarding)
Down-B deserves to be a killmove. It isn't. It should be.
- really? Like down b in the air? or the uppercut?
Forward smash has too much charge time for too little payoff. Why not use down smash? It does similar damage and has far less charge time to be devastating. Maybe it should be angle-able.
- the tip of f smash is the money maker (all electric attacks are this way except down smash)
- Do you think it needs to be stronger still?
Up-tilt is nice for damage racking up but not for getting the pressure off of you.
- any suggestions here?
- Its good to start air combos too...
His cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die BEST moves, fair and dair, require him to be above someone to hit. Just make them different, but not opposite angles.
- What do u mean?
Meanwhile...
Every throw besides back throw is a joke. Back throw is insanely overpowered in damage and knockback. Try less 15~20% more 5~10%.
- i know back throw needs toning down
- what would you suggest? maybe a stronger f throw?
- cant make all the throws super kills
- maybe up or down throw need angle altering? What would you suggest?
Down-B never seems to make anyone bounce. Up-B, however, doesn't really do much besides be a bouncy Down-B
- huh?
Neutral B is the exact opposite of helpful in almost any scenario.
- the single orb is the most useful right now- but im aware it needs work
- any suggestions (on the single orb shot, the charge phase, OR the fully charged attack?)
Otherwise it is far too inaccurate. I haven't been able to tell, but make sure it reflects on perfect shield. I can clearly tell what you were going for, however its angle is far too funny to hit anyone who is standing in a normal position. Some directional control would be nice. I would research how G&W's Chef can be controlled. (B->Down causes the projectiles to only go in low angles, up is the opposite.)
- its meant to bring enemies far away close to you/stun them so you can attack.
My overall recommendation is less multi-hits, more knockback, more horizontal coverage in midair. Change the angle and the percents, because 15% on an attack that leads into itself (fair) is incredibly stupid. I suggest changing fair to shoot forward instead of down forward. Also keep in mind that the longer it takes me in startup to hit someone the more bang I am expecting for my buck otherwise that move is kinda pointless. On Sword Ganon, neutral B hits for only 15 but the move has so much versatility and knockback I'd use it in neutral for sure as a hard read if I had the timing. Forward smash, with its small hitbox and small damage, not so much. Unless I want to do the riskiest juggle ever by the endlag, I don't see a reason to anything other than spam jabs, down B, down smash, and back throw on ground, use nair exclusively as a neutral destroyer, and fair and bair to kill if I think down throw is too mean.
- this is something i want to know more about - what do you think about the damage %'s in general? What attacks are too high?
- however f and back air have a lot of horizontal coverage dont they?
- Ive aimed for anything with multi hits to be balancd out by making the MAIN hit do less damage. Other than attack100 (which needs work) im not sure how much the multi hits are really used to rack up damage.
- test out the knockback more on some attacks.. i think you havent yet caught on to the sweetspots.
- that being said what attacks specifically do you think SHOULD 100% have more knockback (maybe removing some sweetspots and making them more rounded would be a good idea?)
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As for Sword Ganon, I changed my mind on nair. It doesn't need to be any faster because it hits like Marth's dair when it tippers which is downright OP. I can just stand on ledge and shorthop nair and immediately spike anyone who attempts to recover from below. It's speed and damage is fine, just don't let it spike so badly. Nair should never give such a good benefit for a tipper.
- k ya i was thinking about that tip. i want it to be a BIT more powerful than the rest of the sword, but i guess it can use some toning down. Would u think that concept could work fine with some tweaking?
In addition to Sword Ganon, I would like the court to record the damages nair and fsmash do and really ponder how a move with such speed, powerful tippers, and coverage really should be doing (at its best) double the damage of a fully charged fsmash. I cry everytime I see Ganondorf attempt to elbow someone while holding his sword like an awkward smartphone punch and see those puny hitboxes.
- so again what attacks need damage %'s toned down?
- From this comment im seeing the f-smash elbow as well as the 2nd sword swing attack?
- any other that need toning down?
Since he has such range, you could do to reduce tipper damage on a whole. He either hits on the small scale like he has some powerful combo setups he does not or he hits like Ike on a good day plus spikes and meteors.
- so would you say his "A" attacks need to do less damage on the tips?
- are the "B" attacks fine since theyre specials and such?
I for one will argue for Side-B meteors to be kept the way they are. They're hilarious and far more reliable than dair. Really, dair is kinda useless now that I can use side-B for deadly reads (especially since it does the opposite of kill people when it doesn't tipper and sweetspot).
- should i make down air easier to sweetspot?
Meta wise it seems like there are some really OP moves and some really really bad moves, so right now he feels kinda gimmicky like Kirby. With Kirby the rest of my moveset eventually leads me to my real moveset, dash attack, neutral B, up tilt, down B, shorthop side B, and up B when I'm not in maximum gimp mode. Which is of course, at low percents, initiated by neutral B
- im slightly confused about this comparison
- just not sure what ur getting at, probably just a brain fart on my end
Thanks for the feedback, i hope you can get back to me on all this!
