Project Database

[KayLo!]

-____________________________-

But yeah, that list was just a few moves off the top of my head.... I'm sure there are many more that are worth looking into, and we'll find something to use for the top of the shield. Out of all those characters, there's gotta be a move ideal for it.

I have all of Veril's formulas I think! (I keep a complete list of all formulas I find just in case I need one. =X) But you post some too in case I missed one.

 

[thexsunrosered]

kaylo: the encyclopedia of formluas

 

[SuSa]

I was running under the impression that a shield does not "poke" through a shield, but rather hits the characters hurtbox which is not covered by the shield. This is what makes angling the shield to insure your hurtbox is covered so important.

In this sense, you would have to determine a characters "pokability" not by a move - but rather how much of the characters hurtboxes are covered by their shield, for how long, and if angling helps. This would cause all moves to technically have the same ability to "poke" through a shield - so long as they hit the enemy hurtbox.

Am I wrong on this assumption? I don't remember any variable about shield poking.. only shield damage (EG: Marth's Neutral-B and DK's side-B and Jigglypuff's Pound all have an increased shield damage variable)

 

[KayLo!]

Pokability is just a word that came off the top of my head, but you're right that a better way to describe moves would be by their ability to pressure/wear down shields (shield damage). Didn't exactly think out how to word it, but it'll hopefully be more clear once I write up an "official" proposal.

The positioning of a hitbox still has some effect on how well it'll poke (in my experience, high/low ones are better even with tilting), but that's more of a function of the shielding character's vulnerability than the move itself.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Here's an idea.....
The shield stays out for 361. We divide that by 10 and drop the 1 for 36. 1 is when the shield is the most vulnerable and 36 is when it is completely fresh.

All we need to do is figure out how much damage an attack does to the shield to lower that number. ie Sheik's f-tilt does 5. So 36-5=31.
The next thing we need to figure out is when a character can be shield poked.
For example.....
Sheik
feet are poked at 33
front arm is poked at 25
head is poked at 18

Then if you really wanted to be technical it could be.....
front arm is poked at 25, with tilting it can be protected until 18


So the formula for shield pressure is....
A x T + Y= S
A= attack, T= how many times does it hit, Y= duration (how many frames is the shield held up?) and S= the solution
To make sure that the formula works Y will have to be reduced. ie 10=1
Now lets say you are going to hit them with more than one attack. The new formula would be....
S x N + Y= ??
N= number of time it is repeated and Y will have to be how many frames the shield is kept up between each hit.

So lets say for example....
A= MK's Tornado which= 2
T= 12
Y= 40

2 x 12 + 4= 28
36 - 28= 8
Sheik's feet, head and front arm can now all be poked due to this one move.
(or)
S x N x Y= ??
28 x 2 + 20= 68
36 - 68= -32
So it is safe to say that we have just popped their shield.



It is a lot of data, but once we have it all gathered it will be super easy to figure out a way to put on shield pressure and make poke them.







I am mathematically challenged, so tell me if I got anything wrong or if I looking at this the wrong way.

 

[Luxor]

@Susa: You're correct, calling it 'shield poking' is sort of misleading but w/e.

@saviorslegacy: Yep, that's basically how you do it, although I'd leave it in units of 361 frames just because. Veril's got a formula floating around here somewhere for % damage --> shield damage that I can't look for off my itouch. All the data we really need is at what frame of shield life a specific hitbox will hit the exposed hurtbox. Once we have that, we can use shield damage numbers and go backwards in time to see if strings such as MK Nair --> Dtilt will guaranteed poke when shields are on XX%. For manipulating the data I'd say stick with frames, and use percents in the final release so the public understands easier.

Again, shield damage is already established and doesn't need to be tested. The actual 'poking' does.

 

[saviorslegacy]

If that is the case then this project just became really easy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLg5rgoh1mw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7wFEhHVs0U&feature=related

Any volunteers on doing the rest of the cast?

 

[Luxor]

Turns out those aren't actually hurtbubbles. They're Smash Ball Aura points, apparently. That's why Bionic's how-to thread on it was shut down. Unfortunately, going in in frame advance and doing some kind of binary search algorithm to find the right frame is the only way.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Alright, I do not know how to do this hacking part. I can probably come up with an alternative though.

 

[thexsunrosered]

whats a smash ball aura point o.o

 

[SuSa]

Go break a smash ball. It's the points on the character in which the aura is shown from.

/my guess

 

[Yikarur]

"
In this sense, you would have to determine a characters "pokability" not by a move - but rather how much of the characters hurtboxes are covered by their shield"

Attacks itself can have a pokability, a shield gets poked if you a hitbox only hit the hurtbox without touching the shield bubble so if a attack has a very big hitbox it's unlikely that it pokes but a small flat hitbox like Mks dtilt pokes mostly with ease.

 

[KayLo!]

Attacks itself can have a pokability, a shield gets poked if you a hitbox only hit the hurtbox without touching the hitbox so it a attack has a very big hitbox it's unlikely that it pokes but a small flat hitbox like Mks dtilt pokes mostly with ease.

You mean hit the hurtbox without touching the shield, right?

 

[Yikarur]

don't be so fast, I've already edited it xD

 

[SuSa]

That's not really a data though, but how the attack avoids the shield. =\

It's not like you can point at it like you can base knockback and such, it's rather misleading. Some moves are more likely to avoid the shield but that's more of an observational thing, then something you could rank using data.

 

[KayLo!]

My bads, hehe. =X

I see what you're saying, but I think the "pokability" factor has more to do with character vulnerability than the actual moves. For example: Pika's dsmash is a viable poke on characters like MK and Olimar.... but it's not very useful as a poke against someone like Snake. Its pokability (this word sounds more ridiculous the more you use it, rofl) varies based not on the move but on the character you use it on.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

 

[Luxor]

Well, some shields are highly susceptible to pokes (*cough* RESEARCH *cough*) and some moves are good at poking. I still say we find the untilted shield health # at which MK Dtilt pokes for everyone in the cast.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Okay, I am having trouble with shield pokes.
So I'm gonna put it off for the moment and do Sheiks frame data. Someone mentioned it at the last meeting and I volunteered to do it for them.

 

[phi1ny3]

Well, some shields are highly susceptible to pokes (*cough* RESEARCH *cough*) and some moves are good at poking. I still say we find the untilted shield health # at which MK Dtilt pokes for everyone in the cast.

Isn't this quantified in that large "Attributes" sheet? It probably hasn't been made into a ratio, but couldn't the shield values be easily turned into it?

 

[KayLo!]

Is there any sort of list of optimal SDI directions for different moves? I realize that it differs from character to character and whatnot, but I played San this past weekend and saw how much SDI made a huge difference in his game..... made me wanna look into it a bit. A starting point would be nice.

 

[Luxor]

San or Mr. Doom?

I want to say there's a list like that somewhere, but I'm not going to wade through the search for it. As far as SDI goes, I'm pretty interested in this. Link here. Would be pretty cool to look into, if not really *useful*.

 

[Yikarur]

"GOD-DI" lol
it's ASDI.

 

[Luxor]

No, it's not ASDI. It's SDI'ing into the ground when your're knocked into the air during hitlag. Lucas' Usmash is not a multihit move.

And I would kill to see that in a real match.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas' Usmash is a multihit move. It can be SDI'd/DI'd out of at high percents.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Wtf is asdi >__>

Automatic sdi? Lol

 

[Luxor]

It is multihit lol, just looked that up.

Still, the GDI phenomenon is cool and deserves attention.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It's when you get hit by a multi-hit move low enough to the ground in which you're not on the ground anymore by the second hit and you SDI into the ground. At least that's my understanding of it. It probably has to do with the way it's read by the game that hitting the ground when you're airborn comes before knockback, therefore disrupting the flow.

 

[Yikarur]

I didn't notice that you were talking about that here, I hope I clarified every question in the neighboure topic

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah Yika, I still want you to make that thread. I'll proof it for you since English isn't your native language

 

[Yikarur]

Yeah of course.. but I'm a bit lazy right now, I've done so much for brawl the last years v_v
I should start to do something for school *cough*
but the thread will come soon! I already got the beginning.