• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Pres. Bush calls "crisis meeting" over $700B bailout (hijacked by Libertarians)

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
You did not make a reasoned post as to why the further deregulation of the market will fix this while deregulation is what CAUSED this.
I never said further deregulation of the market was a good idea, seeing as how, as it stands, the economy is going to crumble without some form of regulation.

My point was that if the laissez faire system had been implemented at a time when our economy wasn't ****ed over, we wouldn't have the problems we have now. Bad businesses would go out of business. End of story. No bailing (or burning of money) involved.


I am going to pose a question to you: would you rather place yourself in the control of business, or in the control of a government? Give reasons to why and why not in your answer.
The government is crucial in establishing what the rules should be; I.E. protecting the rights of individuals and businesses in the first place. Government is necessary, but it should never reach into my back pocket to pay for the mistakes of a business that should not survive.

Other than that, I'm not really sure what you were driving at with that question.
 

Eor

Banned via Warnings
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Messages
9,963
Location
Bed
I think libertarianism is a terrible philosophy because it's based on the idea that poor people are lazy and is unrealistic about how much the free market can change by itself. Also Ayn Rand is a terrible author and Ron Paul is a terrorist
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
Right. Those things must be true just because you assert that they are.

The majority of poor people wouldn't be poor if they weren't lazy. Public school is free. Get educated, do good in school, and get scholarships for college.

Instead, people complain about the current state of the world and then do nothing about it. Stop whining and further yourselves.
 

SuperRacoon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
344
Location
It's a Secret to Everybody!
Dave Ramsey is very prominent economist, and has written several books about money management and debt elimination.

He has a very clear stance against the way they are handling the bailout.
He basically says that it is stupid because bailing out the company doesn't fix the source of the problem. Instead, he proposes that legislation is in place to control sub prime loans and a means to get rid of them all together. Just bailing out the company itself doesn't do anything for the economy.

Anyway, if you want to read more about this click this link.

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/fed_bailout/economic_cleanup_10887.htmlc
 

The Executive

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
1,434
Location
Within the confines of my mortal shell in T-Town.
Right. Those things must be true just because you assert that they are.

The majority of poor people wouldn't be poor if they weren't lazy. Public school is free. Get educated, do good in school, and get scholarships for college.

Instead, people complain about the current state of the world and then do nothing about it. Stop whining and further yourselves.
This.

10this.
 

Doxa

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
14
Location
League City, Texas
I never said further deregulation of the market was a good idea, seeing as how, as it stands, the economy is going to crumble without some form of regulation.

My point was that if the laissez faire system had been implemented at a time when our economy wasn't ****ed over, we wouldn't have the problems we have now. Bad businesses would go out of business. End of story. No bailing (or burning of money) involved.




The government is crucial in establishing what the rules should be; I.E. protecting the rights of individuals and businesses in the first place. Government is necessary, but it should never reach into my back pocket to pay for the mistakes of a business that should not survive.

Other than that, I'm not really sure what you were driving at with that question.
Laissez faire was a terrible economic system. The best example of it being used would be the Gilded Age, or late 19th century America. In that time businesses took advantage of the proletariat. The lower class was **** on continuously while business owners thrived. To uphold the social mobility intrinsic to America the government had to be used. Because of that we still have held on to one of the most socially mobile countries in the world.

Bad business...can you expand that term for me? Ones that are parasitic or ones that break social contracts or what?

I drove the question at you to figure your general position in libertarianism.
 

GreenKirby

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,316
Location
The VOID!
NNID
NoName9999



The hell you talking about? Libertarianism is the best political philosophy.

It's people like liberal socialists that are ruining the economy (or at least trying to *COUGH* OBAMA *COUGH*).


I thought the majority of the national government was Republicans for the last 8 years.
 

Eor

Banned via Warnings
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Messages
9,963
Location
Bed


The majority of poor people wouldn't be poor if they weren't lazy. Public school is free. Get educated, do good in school, and get scholarships for college.
I NEVER REALIZED HOW EASY THIS IS

Because obviously everyone is born equal, right? Just about everyone that's smart gets full blown scholarships! It's just lazy peopel that are poor. No one is born poor and therefore has to work early just in order to eat and therefore can't keep their schoolwork up enough to get full scholarships, no one has parents that can't instill the importance of learning into kids. It's not like there's an entire subculture that promotes dropping out of school and being a thug that kids look up to as early as they can.

If someone is lazy enough that it'd affect them economically, then of course they'll generally be poor. But whenever I see a libertarian arguing, they usually phase it as "poor person doesn't want to work so he demands free money", which is such a ridiculous statement that I don't want to reply because it shows that they have no idea what they're talking about. It's like when someone claims to be well informed about current events, but only gets everything through a blog and is surprised to find out that Neocon wasn't made up by the author.

I was very interested in libertarianism, and looked into it, but after a talk with Eric I just can't agree with it economically. If Socialism dissolves the upper class into the middle and low class, then Libertarianism dissolves the middle class into the lower class. I can't agree with something that is based off such an insane idea that an entire class is made up of "lazy" people, while everyone else is hard working and smart. To be honest, it seems borderline racist. Social libertarianism is something completely different, I tend to agree with it. Not so much as some as I don't think heavy addictive drugs should be legal, but otherwise then yes.

A large problem with debating libertarianism is that the degree of it changes. There's people that basically want anarchy, those that just want to abolish the department of education and so forth, and those that just want less government control in the economy but no major upheavals.

My Ayn Rand and Ron Paul stuff was a joke. Well party, I do think Ayn Rand is a terrible terrible author and her philosophy is even worse, and her herself was a bigoted *****. Ron Paul I don't agree with because he seems to think that every problem just solves itself.

With that said, I don't think Socialism is a good alternative. Socialism is too much of the collective over the individual, while full-blown libertarianism is too much of the individual over the collective, in which both eventually wipe the underdog out. People don't always act in their best interest. The government doesn't always either, of course, but that's why I think there should be a balance.

For example, let's say a farmer wants to get the most profit out of his land within five years. So he just rips through it and farms it, and at the end of the five years the soil is useless, so the farmer leaves, and does the same elsewhere. He gets the most profit, but when the farmers do that on a large scale basis then we get trouble. Now Libertarians would say that the farmers would realize that and not do it, but that would be under the assumption that they'd work in their best long term interest, which is not how people act. People work for their best interest only if the cause and reasoning is clear and close. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that global warming is real. And now let's take away the governments ability to stop regulating. Do you really think that enough people will stop in order to affect it? Even if there was 0 doubt of global warming existing?

In the end I just think Libertarianism is an unrealistic approach, just like how socialism is unrealistic in the idea that socialism doesn't kill the work ethic and freedoms of a civilization.

And Lew Rockwell killed Jesus
 

The Executive

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
1,434
Location
Within the confines of my mortal shell in T-Town.
Capitalism seems to have worked good for America in the past; greed, negligence, corruption, free passes, and the inherent stupidity of irresponsible people with credit cards are what seem to be doing us in. Surprisingly, those are all inevitable byproducts of capitalism. If only people were more responsible.
 

1048576

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
3,417
Right. Those things must be true just because you assert that they are.

The majority of poor people wouldn't be poor if they weren't lazy. Public school is free. Get educated, do good in school, and get scholarships for college.

Instead, people complain about the current state of the world and then do nothing about it. Stop whining and further yourselves.
It isn't someone's fault if they are lazy. Free will doesn't exist. I addressed eveything you keep saying. Upbringing, intelligence, natural aptitude, blah blah blah, it isn't a person's fault if he/she is poor.

Read my entire post. It wasn't for my health
 

Dodongo

rly likes smoke
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Messages
12,190
Location
Dodongo's Cavern
You're right, there are some poor people in America who are that way because of no fault of their own, and in a true free market some of them might be alienated.
However, socialism is far more unfair, and that's what the bailout is. You can't make everyone pay for everyone else because people are not equal, it's just reality.
 

Eor

Banned via Warnings
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Messages
9,963
Location
Bed
I honestly don't fully understand the full part of the bailout. My gut reaction is to say it's bad because it's rewarding failing companies, that if they ran their business into the ground then it's their fault. But I'm not sure what ramifications it would actually have on the rest of the economy, if the failing companies would cause worst economic crisis on us then having to foot the tab will.
 

NES n00b

Smash Master
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
4,272
Location
Oxford, Mississippi. . . . permanent n00b
If I remember correctly, the biggest portion of poor people are mentally ill (it was like 40% right?) and the next biggest group of poor people is substance abusers (like 20%?). The point isn't really they are lazy, but why should people give money (involuntarily) to people who do not have the right qualities to contribute to society through the government which doesn't give all the money taxed for welfare to those people. Sorry to sound heartless, but why is it the government's job to help people who will most likely not contribute much to society in the future?

Edit: Either way it causes more economic problems. However, it keeps the companies that made these mistakes to continue and make more bad mistakes.
 

1048576

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
3,417
Bailout is not socialism. Bailout is taxing poor people to pay for rich people. That's stupid.

You can either forgive people who suck, or you can punish them. Letting them starve to death is inhumane, especially when putting them out of their misery makes the rest of society better off.
 

GreenKirby

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,316
Location
The VOID!
NNID
NoName9999
Right. Those things must be true just because you assert that they are.

The majority of poor people wouldn't be poor if they weren't lazy. Public school is free. Get educated, do good in school, and get scholarships for college.

Instead, people complain about the current state of the world and then do nothing about it. Stop whining and further yourselves.
Oh lord, another neocon who thinks most poors are lazy. Most poors are not lazy.

And who cares if public school is free. It's severely flawed. And of course, the public schools in rich neighborhoods are unfairly given much more support than the ones in urban areas.
 

cheap_josh

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
914
Location
Northern Virginia
Well in some places, people just use welfare to sit around and do nothing all day. Why go through school or even have a job if you can just get welfare and then go buy alcohol and do more nothing? It got to the point where the government had to come and say no welfare unless your kids are in school and you have X amount of time to get a job (I think this is just Wisconsin). Doesn't seem to be working though.

So in a sense he's right, but no you can't apply this to everyone.

I honestly don't fully understand the full part of the bailout. My gut reaction is to say it's bad because it's rewarding failing companies, that if they ran their business into the ground then it's their fault
From what I know, it is basically forgiving all the companies for making bad mistakes. Normally we'd just say too bad cry more. But when a few companies get so big that it can break the whole economy, the government is suggesting stepping in.

But yeah, I think we're screwed anyway. Congress is just being dumb, only caring if they're repub or demo and not getting anything done. I think they went in to meet but got nothing accomplished.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,774
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
I never said it wasn't the government's fault. I put the blame on other people/ things as well. The banks, the sue everything mentality, the lack of a proper education system about simple economics, dumb people (who either just didn't know how to fill out applications, lied about the financial status, and/or threatened to sue), the national government being occupied elsewhere and not really caring about the economy, greedy businesses, etc.

What the government needs to decide is whether or not they should bail out these insurance and bank companies. Banks are going down because they lent people money or got investments based off of lent money from other banks. The insurance companies are going down cuz the banks insured their money w/ them.

I'm surprised is that nobody saw this coming. Did nobody put two and two together when they learned about the Great Depression and the recent rise of foreclosures? I saw this coming when I was 13, but I admit I didn't expect it to happen now as I was concerned more about my grades and college. Now I might not even be able to go to college >_>;

The ideology that everybody has an equal chance in this society to become rich is plain dumb. What you really need to become rich is connections, some startup money from your parents, and luck. Notice how I didn't mention a college education. A degree just lessens the luck factor to a degree and gives you a chance to make connections.

Wonderful news to go along with this: That nice guy (Chavez?) in Venezuela now has nukes. You know that country, where we get oil from, and doesn't like the US very much but likes Russia. He even called the US imperialistic for starting the war Georgia had vs. Russia and supported Russia.
 

Eor

Banned via Warnings
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Messages
9,963
Location
Bed
You know who also had nukes? Soviet Union. They did much worse then calling us imperialistic.
 

GreenKirby

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,316
Location
The VOID!
NNID
NoName9999
I never said it wasn't the government's fault. I put the blame on other people/ things as well. The banks, the sue everything mentality, the lack of a proper education system about simple economics, dumb people (who either just didn't know how to fill out applications, lied about the financial status, and/or threatened to sue), the national government being occupied elsewhere and not really caring about the economy, greedy businesses, etc.
All the banks had to do was simply tell the guys that couldn't repay a loan for an expensive house and suggest houses more in their price range.

A smaller loan that would have a better chance of getting paid back. People get houses.

Everyone wins!
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
I thought the majority of the national government was Republicans for the last 8 years.
Did I ever say anything remotely close to anything about Republicans? No. All I mentioned was how socialist ideology is stupid and rewards people who don't contribute to society.

I NEVER REALIZED HOW EASY THIS IS

Because obviously everyone is born equal, right? Just about everyone that's smart gets full blown scholarships! It's just lazy peopel that are poor. No one is born poor and therefore has to work early just in order to eat and therefore can't keep their schoolwork up enough to get full scholarships, no one has parents that can't instill the importance of learning into kids. It's not like there's an entire subculture that promotes dropping out of school and being a thug that kids look up to as early as they can.
The main point I was driving at was that under our current state of affairs, of course libertarianism seems ridiculous because not everyone starts out on equal footing. However, if you're someone who truly works hard and actually has something of value to contribute to society, you'll most likely be recognized as such and at least make something of yourself. For those who are born poor, you just have to work a little (or a lot, depending on the circumstances) bit harder than those born into a wealthy family.

Don't get me wrong, though--I despise inherited wealth just as much as I dislike unproductive people. In fact, I hate the idea of some rich yuppie brat inheriting all his money from successful parents and using it for ridiculous and frivolous things much more than I hate the idea of poor people being lazy.


I was very interested in libertarianism, and looked into it, but after a talk with Eric I just can't agree with it economically. If Socialism dissolves the upper class into the middle and low class, then Libertarianism dissolves the middle class into the lower class. I can't agree with something that is based off such an insane idea that an entire class is made up of "lazy" people, while everyone else is hard working and smart. To be honest, it seems borderline racist. Social libertarianism is something completely different, I tend to agree with it. Not so much as some as I don't think heavy addictive drugs should be legal, but otherwise then yes.
But the point I was trying to make was that if a Libertarian system had been adopted within a better economic and social climate than the one we have now, most of the arguments against Libertarian thinking wouldn't even exist.

A large problem with debating libertarianism is that the degree of it changes. There's people that basically want anarchy, those that just want to abolish the department of education and so forth, and those that just want less government control in the economy but no major upheavals.
I definetely don't think government should be abolished. I just think it should be limited to protecting the rights of individuals and, to an extent, the welfare of the country as a whole (military-wise). I just don't agree with people taking money from those who earned it and giving it to those who don't contribute to society anyway. All it does is stifle innovation and progress.

My Ayn Rand and Ron Paul stuff was a joke. Well party, I do think Ayn Rand is a terrible terrible author and her philosophy is even worse, and her herself was a bigoted *****. Ron Paul I don't agree with because he seems to think that every problem just solves itself.
I'm really not that hot for Ron Paul either.

For example, let's say a farmer wants to get the most profit out of his land within five years. So he just rips through it and farms it, and at the end of the five years the soil is useless, so the farmer leaves, and does the same elsewhere. He gets the most profit, but when the farmers do that on a large scale basis then we get trouble. Now Libertarians would say that the farmers would realize that and not do it, but that would be under the assumption that they'd work in their best long term interest, which is not how people act. People work for their best interest only if the cause and reasoning is clear and close. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that global warming is real. And now let's take away the governments ability to stop regulating. Do you really think that enough people will stop in order to affect it? Even if there was 0 doubt of global warming existing?
This is just attacking a hypothetical argument. I could say this about anything, including socialism. You're just predicting how people might or might not act to push an agenda.

The reasoning is still valid, but again--it's a hypothetical. I don't see why that should even be a concern at this point.


It isn't someone's fault if they are lazy. Free will doesn't exist. I addressed eveything you keep saying. Upbringing, intelligence, natural aptitude, blah blah blah, it isn't a person's fault if he/she is poor.

Read my entire post. It wasn't for my health
You will probably counter with the idea that poor people are at fault for being poor, and they deserve the low utility they have. You desire social justice over utility, and as such, you are in favor of a laissez-faire system. I think we can both agree that many factors which influence a person's wealth (intelligence, upbringing, natural aptitude, opportunity, blind luck) are uncontrollable. I would further argue that because we are both rational beings, we both believe that effects have causes. The choices we make are not spontaneously generated by us, but are effects caused by natural stimuli. I believe free will is an illusion, and as a result, nobody is technically at fault for any actions or thoughts they harbor. Because all inequity is unearned in this regard, I would argue that we are morally obligated to equalize the distribution of wealth so that utility is maximized.
How is it not a person's fault for what they do and don't do? So I guess if I come to your house and murder you right now, you'd have absolutely no problem with that.

I think I've answered this question before in the God thread, but I'd like to know why exactly you believe humans have no choice whatsoever in the way they conduct themselves. While things like natural stimuli, opportunity, and "blind luck" do play a part (to an extent), that's not the crux of who we are. Our worth is tied up in what we do with what we're given.

That's basically why I favor Libertarian thinking over Socialist thinking.


Oh lord, another neocon who thinks most poors are lazy. Most poors are not lazy.
WTH? Whoever said I was a neocon? I hate Republicans.

Just because I'm Libertarian doesn't automatically mean I should be associated with conservatism. Nice shotgun blast there.


And who cares if public school is free. It's severely flawed. And of course, the public schools in rich neighborhoods are unfairly given much more support than the ones in urban areas.
Have you followed any part of the conversation so far? I suggest you go back and read before saying dumb-**** things.

@Eor:

About the whole Libertarian vs. Socialist thing, I was basically driving at the point that doing absolutely nothing to advance yourself in the world is unacceptable. If you're born poor, that sucks, but it's not a reason to sit on your butt and collect welfare money. Make the best out of what you have available to you, and you'll at least go somewhere.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,774
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
All the banks had to do was simply tell the guys that couldn't repay a loan for an expensive house and suggest houses more in their price range.

A smaller loan that would have a better chance of getting paid back. People get houses.

Everyone wins!
Did you skip over the part where people didn't know how to accurately fill out the forms or that they intentionally lied to be able to get those loans?

It's the people's fault they don't know simple economics.

It's the government's fault that its citizens don't know simple economics.

It's the people's fault that they elected a government that doesn't care if they were educated.

Blame really does not matter.

So far I really don't see a way out of this situation until everybody simply looses their money and they have to earn it all again. Giving money to companies delays the inevitable. Giving money to people raises inflation making it useless.
 

Deathcarter

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
1,358
Did you skip over the part where people didn't know how to accurately fill out the forms or that they intentionally lied to be able to get those loans?

It's the people's fault they don't know simple economics.

It's the government's fault that its citizens don't know simple economics.

It's the people's fault that they elected a government that doesn't care if they were educated.

Blame really does not matter.

So far I really don't see a way out of this situation until everybody simply looses their money and they have to earn it all again. Giving money to companies delays the inevitable. Giving money to people raises inflation making it useless.
I pretty much agree with that last part. The only thing I can add to that is that the government needs a major retooling so it does not heavily favor corrupt business men and factors the welfare of the middle class and small business owners more. Lord knows that isn't going to happen.
 

cheap_josh

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
914
Location
Northern Virginia
But if we give the money to the companies and banks, it can clean the slates and then people can actually buy stuff again, stimulating the economy. It doesn't seem right I know, but I think it's a better idea than having everybody suffer because of a "why should I it aint my fault" attitude.

Of course I don't know the whole situation, nobody does (Not even top financial advisors do which is why the whole proposal is such a big risk), but it seems like it could work.

But I also heard that every person would have to give up 2000 something dollars x the amount of people in your home, which is probably a lot to ask for most people.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,774
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
Well the way I see it, giving money to the companies would help, but it might only delay the inevitable. That's what the government did last year. The longer we hold it back, the bigger the problem becomes.
 

1048576

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
3,417
The thing is, socialism isn't communism. People still have a motive to earn money if they are able, because then they will get more money. Also, I agree that if you aren't doing anything, like if you're a crippled ******, then the govt. should let you starve. I guess that's a libertarian view, though.
 

GreenKirby

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,316
Location
The VOID!
NNID
NoName9999
It was only shut down because it was an election year.

Otherwise, it would have been unanimous

But at least the CEOs can finally NOT get away with their crap this time. They SHOULD pay for their own screw ups.
 

Crimson King

I am become death
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
28,982
The bailout had no legs to begin with. All that would have happened was the government buys all the bad debt (somehow despite our deficit), and then it would own tons of property and business and wealthy politicians would be even more wealthy.
 

F1r3w0lf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
118
Location
Stop having a boring tuna...stop having a boring l
When i heard about the 700B bailout this went through my head

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj0F2KfCvhg

So its going to be the opposite of the 1930 then? Instead of a president helping stop the depression the president makes one...
Congratulations. You win our debt. Ask some other people who know FF7 to help you with it. (I'll get you started. bad idea: burn our life energy.)
 
Top Bottom