Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[PyroTakun]

King Dedede is either the game's top tier or one of Ike's worst matchups. I just faced Gentleraine from Reddit, perhaps the best person I've ever played in Smash. But more about Dedede.

>Nearly unpunishable on every move he makes. Can get away with even DSmash and not be punished on shield or dodge.
>DTilt is used as his "get out of jail free" card. Starts up instantly and counters potential punishes. Also unpunishable
>FTilt is used randomly. Hard to see coming.
>Gordos grant him an invincibility frame on startup. This befits him for simultaneous offense and defense, as well as HEAVY damage if you're hit by the hammer and Gordo up close
>FSmash is serious mindgames. Has the HIGHEST hitbox and arc of any attack in the game, so jumping over it to punish is suicide. Very hard to punish on shield or dodge unless you're already behind him. Jump air-dodging is risky and likely not worth it. Countering is also suicide as he can just charge-time it to mess you up.
>Air game is full of Bair spam. He is safe on every one of these, making him impossible to approach
>His Fair beats yours in both range and speed and equals your power.
>DThrow to Uair/Fair combo does heavy damage
>Grab range beats yours.
>Up B cancel gives him moderate air control, which he can use to fake you out from the corner as he goes for the ledge. Attempting to punish results in YOU getting punished.
>Can control the Gordos so that they make a "wall" to keep you from approaching. He'll mix you up with a grab if you try to shield them, and if you attack, you'll just get hit by the Gordo instead.
>Is the heaviest character in the game. You will not finish him off quickly.
>Contrary to appearances, hitting Fair on his Gordo is not as effective, at least not in lag. Plus he can just run up and punish you with Ftilt/Fair/Bair while you're busy recovering from your move.

The only mild advantages you have are:

>His air game involves heavy use of Gordo. You *can* punish him with Fair for a possible early kill

Dedede's game revolves strongly around his aerials, Gordo, long grab range, and great defense. Even when you're not playing rushdown, he can still get you by punishing with grabs. And as mentioned before, even easy-looking punishes like his FSmash will get you killed because he's fairly safe.

If anyone has good Dedede tactics, please go ahead and respond to this post.

I haven't come across any stellar DDDs, but I'll throw out some advice:
- D-throw > Aether is an easy way to rack up damage on them
- UAir beats out their Up B
- Jab 1 beats Gordos (Credit to @Yoh who mentioned this in the Strategy Discussion)
- BAir is very easy to hit with against DDD
- Counter is great vs DDD if you can catch the reads

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Well hello there!

What do you think about the Ness MU?

 

[LionMagnus]

Any tips on the Lucario MU? I can deal with some of them fairly well at first, then they just started to play the keep away game at all time (especially when they are at high percentage). It's really hard for Ike to catch I feel.

 

[Mario766]

Every time I play against a Yoshi, I feel like the match-up gets worse and worse. It's really hard to get him in a bad position, and his aerials all but beat ours. Yoshi also has a severe knack to go too high for grab combos to work, and when you try them he can Nair through them for a trade.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Hey guys allisbrawl ladder is here!!! PARTICIPATE PLEASE IM LONELY AS THE ONLY IKE D;

 

[san.]

Hey guys allisbrawl ladder is here!!! PARTICIPATE PLEASE IM LONELY AS THE ONLY IKE D;

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[EvilShadow777]

Every time I play against a Yoshi, I feel like the match-up gets worse and worse. It's really hard to get him in a bad position, and his aerials all but beat ours. Yoshi also has a severe knack to go too high for grab combos to work, and when you try them he can Nair through them for a trade.

Yoshi is an enemy you're going to want to fight center stage mostly. He's as heavy as you are, he has better rush in, and his fair spike is reliable and can end your life quickly if you don't respect it.

The key is going to be your ability to space. Holding jab and nairs will help protect against egg poke and you're going to want to hit him with ftilt, dtilt, pivot grabs, and retreating Bairs. Your recovery is better than his so if you build a lead you can outlast him and look for a kill.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Hey guys allisbrawl ladder is here!!! PARTICIPATE PLEASE IM LONELY AS THE ONLY IKE D;

I fought you yesterday. I go by Xuan Wu at NintendoDojo.

Anyway, any tips against R.O.B.? User Raffi-X 3-stocked me using him. ^-^

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

Any advice on how to deal with Sheik? That's just one character I am trying to fight efficiently with Ike. I know on ground jab is really good against her but other than that I don't know what else to do.

 

[KingKilik]

So today I learned that Quick Draw runs right through that little ******* Luma, and now I've finally won a match against Rosalina. Usually I get forced out and can't ever get in.

Any tips on the Lucario MU? I can deal with some of them fairly well at first, then they just started to play the keep away game at all time (especially when they are at high percentage). It's really hard for Ike to catch I feel.

Usually I'm able to get by reading a smash or tilt and short hop Fair-ing over it.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Thanks for the heads up.

Join please ;~;

 

[LionMagnus]

So today I learned that Quick Draw runs right through that little ******* Luma, and now I've finally won a match against Rosalina. Usually I get forced out and can't ever get in.

Usually I'm able to get by reading a smash or tilt and short hop Fair-ing over it.

Thanks for the reply. It might be a wifi issue then, if I shield his smash I go for a dash grab he usually can roll away or spot dodge. I also tried Fair-ing, but my Fair spacing still needs work. Also good find on the Rosalina MU,

 

[Planet God Venus]

I've found vs Dabuz that when fighting him and being precise with all of my attacks I can get in between him and Luma and deal big damage from a combo when he commands Luma to do something. You guys should pick up on this! Could help you guys a lot.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Sonic, Diddy, and Falco are pretty detrimental. All have far-reaching attacks with virtually no startup time or hitlag, making them hard to punish.

 

[KingKilik]

How is Sonic detrimental? I mean, sure he's fast and has lots of approach options, but he's pretty light, and you outrange him.

 

[-RedX-]

Sonic can play time out if you lack a projectile. He's very annoying to catch.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How is Sonic detrimental? I mean, sure he's fast and has lots of approach options, but he's pretty light, and you outrange him.

>FSmash covers considerable range and cannot be punished if blocked
>Not that light at all. Pretty sure he's a midweight and can survive quite a few circumstances
>Spin Dash jump into Nair kill at 130%
>Bthrow kill off the edge at 110%
>Moves so fast that most of your kill attempts will whiff, including Bair.
>Keeping him at range with spaced nairs just makes him Spin Dash punish you on land

Your best bet is Ftilt because Sonic players tend to get overzealous.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, Ftilt is not your best bet. That's actually a pretty bad idea and will get you punished.

Stick with Jab, Dtilt, Utilt, Fair, Nair, Bair, Uair, Grabs, Counter occasionally. If he tries to Uthrow -> Up B -> Uair you can try to wavebounce Eruption to peg him if you're feeling risky (KOs if it hits though). Usmash to cover ledge options is a pretty good idea as well, just don't go that way all of the time as he can punish it for free with a homing attack. If he's spinning towards you, shield. That covers the majority of his options and if he tries to get out of it before hitting you, you'll be able to react. You can use Quickdraw to try to cover ground quickly but you have to be careful with it.

Spacing with Nair is fine. Just don't do it if he's sitting there waiting for an easy punish. Or go for Fair covered by Dtilt thanks to its auto-cancel frames.

If he's getting desperate for a KO and starts fishing with Fsmash, Counter it once. Watch Fsmash disappear out of fear of being read and KO'd by it. Though honestly his Dsmash hit me a lot more than Fsmash ever did when I played a couple of Sonics in tournament. What I described above all worked for me, beat both of them.

 

[EvilShadow777]

Tbh against sonic I usually just do a normal defensive play style and try to read his approach. Only move I'd just never use against him is fmash, he will dodge it 100% of the time if he's paying attention.

Side b may seem like an attractive option but it cancels vs many of Sonics attacks and forces you into his range, so it should be used less than usual. Ftilt is decent if you read a side b tho his down b has the same animation.

What you wanna watch is his movement - if he's flying sideways and bouncing at small arcs that's easy to hit with a well timed upward ftilt. If he's bouncing in a zigzag or sticking right on the ground without much momentum, he's wanting to approach/bait a hit. Ftilt will pretty much always fail vs his downb. You have to watch his movements closely to get accurate reads but each hit will count a lot.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I made a separate thread for these matches, but in case anyone doesn't seem them on the front prage or would rather view them here, I made four videos for Mario...

http://youtu.be/h6owlbF1T_o
http://youtu.be/1rt1JtXTt48
http://youtu.be/8bNqxi7ePkM
http://youtu.be/osaIYhLWAnA
http://youtu.be/SNCWH9dW7Rs

two for Zero Suit Samus...

http://youtu.be/8w1uwWWWFXk
http://youtu.be/o1aMrPymBYI

And I have three more Mario vids coming, complete with a few new techniques I tried.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Sonic can play time out if you lack a projectile. He's very annoying to catch.

I don't catch Sonic mains, I time them out.

 

[gsninja]

Sonic, Diddy, and Falco are pretty detrimental. All have far-reaching attacks with virtually no startup time or hitlag, making them hard to punish.

I dunno about Sonic, he's definitely one of Ike's more manageable matchups. Diddy can go **** himself forever.

I always underestimate how strong Eruption is, I'm constantly surprised at how far an uncharged/barely charged one sends characters flying.

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

Though it seems like it's already been done, disregard what I said earlier, I read the MU threads early on in this discussion! Sorry I am new to this site. D:

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Little Mac:

>Perfectly punishes any move you make, including from a distance
>Outprioritizes any of your moves. His FTilt beats your FTilt, his jabs beat your jabs.
>Due to Ike's launching range having vertical direction, Little Mac can often recover without needing Side B.
>DTilt, DTilt, KO Punch. When the DTilt connects, this cannot be escaped. You can also be KO'd from this combo at 0%.
>You cannot punish Little Mac's Smashes on shield. He's safe on block.
>Punishes you for trying to edgeguard him. If you DTilt when he recovers, he can airdodge and Up B before your DTilt animation ends.
>Can punish your landing without you using an aerial or an airdodge. His Ftilt can get you in the air.
>His edgeguarding can completely and utterly cripple you. His DSmash can beat your Side B.
>He can also use FSmash to punish Aether if you are even the SLIGHTEST bit above the edge. Think Mario's FLUDD, and take note, without your second jump, you've just lost a stock.
>You cannot use Eruption to punish his recovery unless he is quite far away. Otherwise, he will simply slink under it and punish with Up B when he recovers.
>If you attempt to Counter his Up B, he can also do it extremely low from the ground.
>Little Mac can Up B immediately after the airdodge. He can use this to punish moves instantaneously in the air, including edgeguarding attempts.

As I've said, it's practically impossible to punish him at all. You just have to hope he Smashed wrong so you can get the Bair in. Your next best bet is, when he's recovering, read his airdodge and Fair him. Using Counter also helps, but only works so many times before he picks up on it and whiffs a move purposely to make you feel safe, bait your Counter, and then punish you.

I honestly feel this is 70-30 in Little Mac's favor. He will punish your every move while you cannot punish his. And some players make it look like his recovery isn't so bad since they can manage the right airdodges and don't even have to use his Side B. They just jump or use Up B in a clever fashion.

I played Renegade's Little Mac and he consistently 2-stocked my Ike. I'll have to upload some videos, but this matchup is absolute hell.

 

[Planet God Venus]

At high level play Ike is only good on Smashville, Town and City, and Battlefield. No Counterpicks aid him in this game at higher levels of play... This is just my personal observation if you find a CP that is good for Ike please post it here and I shall tell you why it is not.

 

[⑨ball]

At high level play Ike is only good on Smashville, Town and City, and Battlefield. No Counterpicks aid him in this game at higher levels of play... This is just my personal observation if you find a CP that is good for Ike please post it here and I shall tell you why it is not.

Obvious first picks would be Delfino and Halberd for the low ceilings. I've been looking into Kongo Jungle 64, Duck Hunt and Castle Siege lately too since I'm pretty surprised they're more often than not legal.

Thoughts?

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

At high level play Ike is only good on Smashville, Town and City, and Battlefield. No Counterpicks aid him in this game at higher levels of play... This is just my personal observation if you find a CP that is good for Ike please post it here and I shall tell you why it is not.

Can you explain why Lylat isn't? I understand the blastzones at the sides can be kinda lame, also with the stage tilting lol, but don't platforms usually help Ike out??

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Little Mac:

>Perfectly punishes any move you make, including from a distance
>Outprioritizes any of your moves. His FTilt beats your FTilt, his jabs beat your jabs.
>Due to Ike's launching range having vertical direction, Little Mac can often recover without needing Side B.
>DTilt, DTilt, KO Punch. When the DTilt connects, this cannot be escaped. You can also be KO'd from this combo at 0%.
>You cannot punish Little Mac's Smashes on shield. He's safe on block.
>Punishes you for trying to edgeguard him. If you DTilt when he recovers, he can airdodge and Up B before your DTilt animation ends.
>Can punish your landing without you using an aerial or an airdodge. His Ftilt can get you in the air.
>His edgeguarding can completely and utterly cripple you. His DSmash can beat your Side B.
>He can also use FSmash to punish Aether if you are even the SLIGHTEST bit above the edge. Think Mario's FLUDD, and take note, without your second jump, you've just lost a stock.
>You cannot use Eruption to punish his recovery unless he is quite far away. Otherwise, he will simply slink under it and punish with Up B when he recovers.
>If you attempt to Counter his Up B, he can also do it extremely low from the ground.
>Little Mac can Up B immediately after the airdodge. He can use this to punish moves instantaneously in the air, including edgeguarding attempts.

As I've said, it's practically impossible to punish him at all. You just have to hope he Smashed wrong so you can get the Bair in. Your next best bet is, when he's recovering, read his airdodge and Fair him. Using Counter also helps, but only works so many times before he picks up on it and whiffs a move purposely to make you feel safe, bait your Counter, and then punish you.

I honestly feel this is 70-30 in Little Mac's favor. He will punish your every move while you cannot punish his. And some players make it look like his recovery isn't so bad since they can manage the right airdodges and don't even have to use his Side B. They just jump or use Up B in a clever fashion.

I played Renegade's Little Mac and he consistently 2-stocked my Ike. I'll have to upload some videos, but this matchup is absolute hell.

LM is a fairly easy MU dude. Not a cakewalk, but if you know how to go about it properly you should be winning. For one, he does not "outprioritize" anything of ours outside of Jab. We have disjointed range with no hurtbox attached. He has no disjoint. Disjoint > nondisjoint unless they clash in which case the situation is back to neutral. His might be faster in some cases or have super armour but he's not ourprioritizing anything unless he does something like hit our Jab with Fsmash. Also why on earth are you using Ftilt against a character with possibly the fastest ground punish game?

LM should not be coming back from being off stage against Ike almost ever, unless the knockback was almost straight up. And Ike has loads of horizontal launching tools. Use those at killing percents. Heck, just use Bthrow, its a pure horizontal launching tool, using it off stage and he's forced to second jump which greatly limits his already limited recovery options. At nonkilling percents use vertical launching tools, laugh at him in the air as all he can do is Counter to try to get back down. Bait it then punish.

Why on earth are you trying to edgeguard with Dtilt? Its Eruption or go off stage and smack him in the face with your giant sword he can only cry at. Or Counter, which is why sometimes you run off and do nothing to fake him out and make him mistime Counter. Off stage he should be dead. Plain and simple. Also, use your Eruption better. He's Eruption bait, its all on you. Its not like he has Pikachu's Up B. Both his Side B and Up B are easy to hit thanks to a rather massive hitbox and him having to throw his hurtbox at it face first.

His Ftilt shouldn't be hitting you if you are retreating your Fairs and Bairs properly. If he's getting super aggressive with trying to punish your aerials, throw out a Counter after he's been conditioned to try to punish.

Aim your recoveries better. You can Aether so you can't be hit/so it hits on stage where he's waiting, do that. You can (most likely, I'd actually need to test this one) Side B lower and still grab the stage or (this will work) higher and above his Dsmash and still auto-cancel the landing lag/land on a platform. Do that.

Why on earth are you trying to Counter his Up B?

He can't instantly Up B after an airdodge. Everyone has recovery time afterward an airdodge. Learn it.

To be a bit blunt... you should probably be asking for help with MUs more than trying to write up MU breakdowns. A lot of the ones you've written up are fairly off. LM should only be a real issue on FD/Omega stages. Its not 3:7, its more like 6:4.

 

[-RedX-]

Small tip: Because Little Mac's UpB does not ledge snap at all, you can space a downward angled Ftilt on his way up for a quick gimp.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

LM is a fairly easy MU dude. Not a cakewalk, but if you know how to go about it properly you should be winning. For one, he does not "outprioritize" anything of ours outside of Jab. We have disjointed range with no hurtbox attached. He has no disjoint. Disjoint > nondisjoint unless they clash in which case the situation is back to neutral. His might be faster in some cases or have super armour but he's not ourprioritizing anything unless he does something like hit our Jab with Fsmash. Also why on earth are you using Ftilt against a character with possibly the fastest ground punish game?

LM should not be coming back from being off stage against Ike almost ever, unless the knockback was almost straight up. And Ike has loads of horizontal launching tools. Use those at killing percents. Heck, just use Bthrow, its a pure horizontal launching tool, using it off stage and he's forced to second jump which greatly limits his already limited recovery options. At nonkilling percents use vertical launching tools, laugh at him in the air as all he can do is Counter to try to get back down. Bait it then punish.

Why on earth are you trying to edgeguard with Dtilt? Its Eruption or go off stage and smack him in the face with your giant sword he can only cry at. Or Counter, which is why sometimes you run off and do nothing to fake him out and make him mistime Counter. Off stage he should be dead. Plain and simple. Also, use your Eruption better. He's Eruption bait, its all on you. Its not like he has Pikachu's Up B. Both his Side B and Up B are easy to hit thanks to a rather massive hitbox and him having to throw his hurtbox at it face first.

His Ftilt shouldn't be hitting you if you are retreating your Fairs and Bairs properly. If he's getting super aggressive with trying to punish your aerials, throw out a Counter after he's been conditioned to try to punish.

Aim your recoveries better. You can Aether so you can't be hit/so it hits on stage where he's waiting, do that. You can (most likely, I'd actually need to test this one) Side B lower and still grab the stage or (this will work) higher and above his Dsmash and still auto-cancel the landing lag/land on a platform. Do that.

Why on earth are you trying to Counter his Up B?

He can't instantly Up B after an airdodge. Everyone has recovery time afterward an airdodge. Learn it.

To be a bit blunt... you should probably be asking for help with MUs more than trying to write up MU breakdowns. A lot of the ones you've written up are fairly off. LM should only be a real issue on FD/Omega stages. Its not 3:7, its more like 6:4.

I don't think you understand what you're up against. I don't want to bore you, so I'll post a few videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GbvC0pQOw8&list=UUo1csVwAdPVQrWnSZTd-zrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXSt-D9Euxk&list=UUo1csVwAdPVQrWnSZTd-zrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTwJ2u3LIJo&list=UUo1csVwAdPVQrWnSZTd-zrA

Let me add that this is Renegade we're talking about - someone who knows the Ike MU inside and out. Little Mac isn't Eruption bait if his Up B gets you before you can even launch it. Also keep in mind that the horizontal attacks angle at 45 degrees or so, which means he can still go without using Side B. He just needs to go lower for a very low Up B, using it RIGHT before you can Bair him into the corner.

You're welcome to watch the rest of the matches if you want, but even though I could take down his Link, his Little Mac was ruthless and was a nightmare to try and grab with Side B.

Small tip: Because Little Mac's UpB does not ledge snap at all, you can space a downward angled Ftilt on his way up for a quick gimp.

It actually does if he Up B's right near it rather than at a lower angle.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Like you said, its Renegade. I believe he used Ike back in Brawl IIRC?

Its a case of him knowing the MU better than you do. Time your Eruptions better. It doesn't auto-snap. You should know the horizontal range he has to be in order to make it back while using Up B, and then let go once he enters it. Its a lingering hitbox, he's going to run into it or at least hit your super armour provided you've been charging it long enough.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Like you said, its Renegade. I believe he used Ike back in Brawl IIRC?

Its a case of him knowing the MU better than you do. Time your Eruptions better. It doesn't auto-snap. You should know the horizontal range he has to be in order to make it back while using Up B, and then let go once he enters it. Its a lingering hitbox, he's going to run into it or at least hit your super armour provided you've been charging it long enough.

We're actually about to play soon.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Did not know those videos were private. These are my matches against Renegade's Little Mac. I posted them in the video critique thread, but for the sake of seeking matchup advice, I'm posting them here as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOELxh-k0L8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4oQjC2JBMg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMGmGJJjZlM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBPPPlJiA3M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky35mVdhNUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJl6AmssYEY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-AUxwGrEs4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilgd5n30VJY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTwJ2u3LIJo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeJ6rYLdUiI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXSt-D9Euxk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GbvC0pQOw8

 

[⑨ball]

Little Mac:

>Perfectly punishes any move you make, including from a distance

This is a player issue not a MU issue.

>Outprioritizes any of your moves. His FTilt beats your FTilt, his jabs beat your jabs.

No. Please learn how to properly space with Ike. At the very worst you should be clashing or nipping his super armor.
His jabs come out on frame 1 or 2 compared to Ike's frame 3(I believe) obviously you're going to lose if you're trying to have jab battles with Little Mac for some god forsaken reason.

>Due to Ike's launching range having vertical direction, Little Mac can often recover without needing Side B.

Same can be said of Ike, but it's a much rougher position for Little Mac since if you jump off stage after him he has to gamble with a momentum halting counter, or air dodging and getting baited.

>DTilt, DTilt, KO Punch. When the DTilt connects, this cannot be escaped. You can also be KO'd from this combo at 0%.

*Shrug*
Lots of characters have kill combos and setups in this game. KO punch is obnoxious, but considering how a back throw and a good read near the ledge means Little Mac is done, it seems pretty fair.

>You cannot punish Little Mac's Smashes on shield. He's safe on block.

Not true, as evidenced in your own videos with both regular shield and perfect shield. You also have the option to spot dodge. They can harder to punish if he spaces them well but that's also the range Ike prefers.

>Punishes you for trying to edgeguard him. If you DTilt when he recovers, he can airdodge and Up B before your DTilt animation ends.

A max range Dtilt is not getting hit by anything Little Mac do from offstage. Beyond that, Dtilt why? Ftilt has much more range and hits at a much better angle for gimping Little Mac.

>Can punish your landing without you using an aerial or an airdodge. His Ftilt can get you in the air.

Landing traps are not exclusive to Little Mac and nothing new to playing Ike.

>His edgeguarding can completely and utterly cripple you. His DSmash can beat your Side B.
>He can also use FSmash to punish Aether if you are even the SLIGHTEST bit above the edge. Think Mario's FLUDD, and take note, without your second jump, you've just lost a stock.

Having bad sideB's and UpB's beaten out is also nothing new or exclusive to the Little Mac MU.

>You cannot use Eruption to punish his recovery unless he is quite far away. Otherwise, he will simply slink under it and punish with Up B when he recovers.

It's all in the timing and also the spacing, why are you close enough to the ledge that UpB can hit you? Eruption has a decent enough horizontal hitbox that you don't need to be offstage. It also hits below the ledge on all neutrals making on edge usage really really questionable.

>If you attempt to Counter his Up B, he can also do it extremely low from the ground.

???
Not sure when exactly you'd be trying to counter his UpB that he'd doing it from the ground. In anycase, though counter is better in Smash 4 it's still one of Ike's worst moves and should only be used for hard reads and instant ledge hop punishes to 4 glory tactics(herpaderp charge smash).

>Little Mac can Up B immediately after the airdodge. He can use this to punish moves instantaneously in the air, including edgeguarding attempts.

Everyone can do this. It's not even relevant to a character like Ike who has a disjointed hitbox on most of his attacks.

As I've said, it's practically impossible to punish him at all. You just have to hope he Smashed wrong so you can get the Bair in. Your next best bet is, when he's recovering, read his airdodge and Fair him. Using Counter also helps, but only works so many times before he picks up on it and whiffs a move purposely to make you feel safe, bait your Counter, and then punish you.

I honestly feel this is 70-30 in Little Mac's favor. He will punish your every move while you cannot punish his. And some players make it look like his recovery isn't so bad since they can manage the right airdodges and don't even have to use his Side B. They just jump or use Up B in a clever fashion.

I played Renegade's Little Mac and he consistently 2-stocked my Ike. I'll have to upload some videos, but this matchup is absolute hell.

I didn't even watch all of your videos, but I can tell you this from watching three:You really need to learn how to space with Ike. Most of the time it looks like you were trying to hit with Ike's wrists or something.

Being able to punish is more often than not a player issue, not a character issue. Counter is bad. Reserve it for hard reads like you would your smashes. Not being able to edgeguard Little Mac is again, a player issue. He has so little options to recover it takes quite a large gap in player skill to even suggest this much is hard. MU numbers are typically thought of as a measure of character strength between players of equal skill. From what I saw, Renegade is a much better player than you. It'd be like judging Sheik vs Ike as 70-30 Sheik because 4glory Ike's get fair gimped all day.

A good Little Mac can certainly put some fear into their opponent since his ground game is so powerful, but there's no way Little Mac should be consistently beating Ike's in tournament.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

What options does Mac have once he´s offstage? nothing, except a succesful counter. Eruption ftw

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Alright, I took your advice and implemented a few new tactics. I stopped using easy-to-read moves like FTilt, tried to gimp him a little better, and use Eruption from the side. Here's what happened today when I faced Rayquaza07's Little Mac. Keep in mind I think I got a bit better near the end if you'd rather watch the last few videos.

http://youtu.be/WC-oGNyea5w
http://youtu.be/Il5AoYgwdCM
http://youtu.be/lyVhAt62g2c
http://youtu.be/dVyFAaoZgTM
http://youtu.be/61k7NiGAeEE
http://youtu.be/zkeY2qWHaRA
http://youtu.be/Tg8iCCz3D88
http://youtu.be/5mJixGPlTHE
http://youtu.be/2gkiVqOomWs
http://youtu.be/wOMxRYBgtXg
http://youtu.be/UzKLaiqlBOU
http://youtu.be/SMrYT5-w6yc
http://youtu.be/Pl08qq1HN3I

Any critique is of course welcome.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

(I have only seen the last one) I think you should get closer to the edge when using eruption. Maybe throw in some counters because that Little Mac only grabbed you once. Not too many though because obvious. And was the side b at the end an accident or did you try to take him by surprise? because that move is super laggy and a bad idea, especially against Mac!

 

[Pazzo]

Rosalina is a very bad matchup for Ike as far as I experienced...whenever you wanna approach she will block it and punish you hard. If you're in the air she can juggle you like there's no tomorrow. Dunno,I kinda have the impression that Ike never should engage in a fight and rather need to wait for the enemy to do a mistake...and people with range will rarely let that happen.

So,any advices how to play Ike,like beginning a fight without getting punished by your lag? Even my shorthopping combined with nair or fair is getting punished. I have the same problem with Sonic being way too predictable with my spin...I guess I will drop Sonic for that reason and start playing Sheik or Falcon like people advising me.

 

[PyroTakun]

Rosalina is a very bad matchup for Ike as far as I experienced...whenever you wanna approach she will block it and punish you hard. If you're in the air she can juggle you like there's no tomorrow. Dunno,I kinda have the impression that Ike never should engage in a fight and rather need to wait for the enemy to do a mistake...and people with range will rarely let that happen.

So,any advices how to play Ike,like beginning a fight without getting punished by your lag? Even my shorthopping combined with nair or fair is getting punished. I have the same problem with Sonic being way too predictable with my spin...I guess I will drop Sonic for that reason and start playing Sheik or Falcon like people advising me.

Rosalina is definitely a tough MU for my Ike; I've gotten bopped by Forte every time we've played. There's a bit of Rosalina advice in the OP, hopefully it helps.

As for different ways to start matches, I usually do N-air/ F-air, or dash into shield cancel. Maybe rising air dodge could help out a bit too.

 

[Pazzo]

Rosalina is definitely a tough MU for my Ike; I've gotten bopped by Forte every time we've played. There's a bit of Rosalina advice in the OP, hopefully it helps.

As for different ways to start matches, I usually do N-air/ F-air, or dash into shield cancel. Maybe rising air dodge could help out a bit too.

Alright. Thx. I read something important in this thread right now. One shouldn't short hop and Nair/Fair the whole time if the opponent stays and just waits for you to land on the ground for a punish. Only do that if you see him coming to your range.

But yeah...it seems that you need to be patient and wait for the right time to approach or else you get easily shield grabbed by the lag your attacks are causing.