Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[-RedX-]

I only have decent MU exp with Rosa so far.
In regards of getting Luma out of the way, Ike excels at this simply because of range and damage. It takes around 10%(need to test more) to send Luma flying and if near the edge of stage, Luma is gone for a bit. Fair, Bair, Ftilt and Dash attack are ideal for Luma kills. Even if Rosa shields, Luma still gets hit so that shield grab against a mis-spaced aerial is probably worth it if you kill Luma. Just make sure you get back to neutral safely.
Now you have Rosa by herself, start spacing aerials/Dtilt and mixups with empty short hops/grabs. She's very tall so retreating Bair is pretty good against her. Nair of course is great as well. I feel like these are still good even with Luma around because we have range and power. She's also quite floaty and light which is just asking to be Usmash'd. Dies around 70-80 with decent Rage. Her recovery is also Eruption bait. If you have to deal with Rosa and Luma and you need a grab, don't use Dthrow or pummels. Luma can interrupt both. Any other throw done right after grabbing then attacking Luma is reccomended. Kinda like how ICs were dealt with in Brawl.
When jabbing Rosa, you might have to do slight delays if you want the whole string to connect because she gets knocked up pretty high. I think this might be iffy with Luma around because they'll mash something out if you whiff/delay the 2nd or 3rd hit too much.

 

[Nysyarc]

I won't be able to contribute too much to match-up discussions until the WiiU version is released, currently playing Ganon almost exclusively on 3DS. That said...

Any Ike's want to discuss the Diddy, Rosa, Greninja, Sheik MU with me? I think I got a lot of info to share... and there are some things I want to debate on actually

Diddy I have some experience with, and it's tough. I recall mentioning a few points about the match-up in another thread. Diddy's air game seems better than ours overall, although our Bair can beat a lot of his approach options (especially effective against his sideB in the neutral game, pretty much completely shuts it down as long as he doesn't catch you off guard). When above Diddy we can't safely challenge his Uair with our Dair, so you have to kind of maneuver around him as best you can. His horizontal air speed isn't the greatest so it's not too difficult to do this, just be wary of air-dodging because his aerials are quick enough to frame trap.

Our approach options are pretty limited, especially if he's holding a banana. Nair and Fair aren't really safe on whiff or shield as long as he reacts quick enough, auto-canceled Bairs spaced really well are the only thing we can kind of throw out to approach, and Jab/dash grab can work too if you make a read. When you get him off-stage you absolutely have to try and bait the sideB recovery and punish it, because hitting him out of his upB is relatively very difficult. Running in and then retreating a Usmash can work and is pretty safe even if you don't bait the sideB.

His low and mid percent combo game is annoying but there's not much we can do about it. Vector away and try to get a Nair or Bair out first, it'll work at mid percents. Whatever you do, don't air-dodge immediately after being thrown at higher percents, it's an easy read and Uair/Fair for him. No matter how you cut it, we have to work a lot harder in this match-up than Diddy and we have to do our best to bait and punish his approaches, because our approaches are generally pretty unsafe due to his ground speed and attacks with quick start-up. Capitalizing as hard as we can when he's in the air above us (shark with Uair/Utilt, try to bait air-dodges) or offstage is really important too. I don't think he has any strong attacks with enough disjoint to hit us out of Aether, so recovery shouldn't be a problem for you as long as you're vectoring well and not putting yourself in situations where you're forced to use Quickdraw or burn your double-jump early.

 

[deakolt]

anyone have advice on ganon MU? I have trouble approaching - he can either shield all my aeriel approaches, and approaching on ground with dash/powershield often gets punished by command grab . halp1!

 

[Nysyarc]

anyone have advice on ganon MU? I have trouble approaching - he can either shield all my aeriel approaches, and approaching on ground with dash/powershield often gets punished by command grab . halp1!

Having played both characters quite a lot, I feel like Ganon benefitted more from the changes to mechanics in this game and may be a better character than Ike overall (can provide further thoughts on that later), but the head to head match-up is probably pretty close to even.

You definitely don't want to be the one approaching if at all possible, because even though Ike's approaches aren't the greatest, Ganon's are worse. Ganon's major redeeming qualities are his punish and follow-up games; he can get enormous reward for small reads and baits. So what you have to do is just play safe and not overcommit to anything. Ganon has no practical way of dealing with the disjoint on Ike's Bair, it will hit him out of his dash attack, downB and sideB and beats Ganon's own Bair.

If he is forcing you to approach (has a percent lead and refusing to do so himself), just dash in and retreat to see what he does. His sideB and downB are easy to react to and punish as long as you're anticipating them, what you don't want is to commit to something like dash attack or a grab and give him a free opportunity to hit you. You could also commit to something quick like run-up Jab a few times to condition him into shielding and then just run up dash grab him when he's hiding in his shield, but this is risky due to what I mentioned about his punish game.

Ganon has no guaranteed follow-ups after his sideB on Ike, which means if you buffer wake-up attack, stand up, roll in or roll out immediately, he can't hit you with Jab or Dtilt like he can many other characters. What he can do is read what way you like to get up, so be sure to mix it up often and in ways he can't predict. Do not approach with or use Quick Draw offensively at all in this match-up, if he shields it he gets a free Fsmash (default Quick Draw that is). Be wary about using Counter as well, and definitely don't fall into a habit of doing it.

When you have Ganon is the air, his air speed is terrible so his only options are to air dodge, Dair or downB. Your Uair beats his Dair but downB is weird, I've had cases where Uair beats it and other cases where it wins and ends up killing Ike off the top at like 70%, so be careful about challenging it in the air. Bait it by empty jumping and then just punish the landing lag with a Usmash or something. If you're in the air above Ganon, don't try to challenge his Uair with an attack of your own, it will win. And don't air-dodge into the ground either, that's a free sideB (or anything really) for him. Just maneuver away from him and reset to neutral game on the ground.

Off-stage, avoid recovering too low with Aether, try to vector well and high to the corner and save your double jump so you can mix up your recovery. The reason I say this is that Ganon can very easily jump above Aether and Dair spike you out of it when it's at its apex. If you notice him going for it, vector towards the stage and try to tech. This doesn't mean you want to recover exclusively with Quick Draw, because he can also punish that pretty hard if he reads it. The good news is that you can do things to Ganon when he's off-stage as well. Try to bait a sideB in situations where he'd want the Ganoncide (he's at high percent and you're really low, you're both on last stock, etc) because it's easy to punish, obviously just be careful to not get grabbed by it though. If he recovers from low off-stage you can walk-off Dair him out of his upB and it's a stock, just make sure you hit directly above him, if you fall in front of him he may grab you with the upB instead.

Kinda rambled there, hopefully that was helpful and not just completely tl;dr, haha.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

It's imperative to watch out for Zelda.

>FTilt can outrange your own
>FSmash on block is safe from your attacks, including Bair
>Phantom CAN gimp your Aether on edge
>Is probably the worst character to attempt Smashes on due to Farore's Wind lethality, Bair, and Fair

Let me add Peach as well,

>Blocked Peach Bomber cancels into Fair after hit. Block.
>Blocked Peach Comboer cancels into Nair after hit. Don't dash forward.
>Full-range blocked jab is punished by dash grab
>Side B recovery is punished by Dair, Turnip, or a well-timed Fair. In fact, NEVER Side B recover. Even when you trade blows, she still has time to fastfall, pull a turnip, and hit you before you're back
>Nair kills at 150% around midstage. Bair does as well.
>Nair cancels from any of her aerials, primarily the Dair she abuses so much
>Dair has good range and combos well at low percentages
>Sheik-esque Fair combo/follow-ups to gimp you or combo you on-stage
>Nair is an immediate lag-cancel into slaps or another move. Do not try to punish a landing Nair Peach
>Fair can knock you far at mid-percents
>Fair > your Fair. Beats in range and speed. At best, you will trade. This is her favorite weapon since it's powerful and can kill.
>Peach Bomber punishes Back roll
>Toad not only gimps, but now KILLS you for using Aether
>Peach is incredibly durable compared to the rest of the middleweights. Survives sweetspot UTilt at 110$% with red-lightning effect
>Jab combo will whiff the third attack, even when both hits connect. This is completely punishable with a Nair or a Fair.
>USmash has supreme range. Will beat you from above her fingertips.
>Will throw out random Peach Bombers. These cannot be punished on block as listed above. These are also used to bait fastfall nairs, which will not hit behind if timed
>Crossup Fairs to keep her safe if she hits your shield while landing.

However, Peach has detrimental weaknesses.

>Peach players are attack cannons. Due to their love of canceling, they attack a lot, especially with Fair and Peach Bomber. Counter WILL save your life.
>Eruption. They love to recover high. Gimp them and they have no choice to but to try and recover low. Charge Eruption no matter what. Watch out if they try and use Toad before Parasol. If Peach recovers horizontally with Parasol, this will hit 100% of the time if she goes for the edge. Remember to watch her fakeout. She'll go for it, go back, and forward again at the lowest point.
>UTilt. They get in close quickly. This takes care of that.
>USmash. Yes. With their varying angles, they stay in the air most of the match, so if they try to crossup a Fair on you from above, this is a great way to put her down or to exploit any potential landing lag.
>Punish her neutral A's by blocking hers, then countering with your own. It's usually landing Nair into slap-slap. You block this into Jab.
>Early gimping Fair. Peach is great with air control and reading your movements. Wait for her to hover a bit. You can get her at around 70%
>Nair beats all of her aerials.
>Bair is your FRIEND. Remember that she is a tall character and highly susceptible to it. It's as useful to you as Fair is to her, plus it can outrange it and punish the attack on block as well if the two of you are close enough.

Above all else, you must remain patient. Do not Fair her while on the ground because she will shield grab or Peach Bomber you. Side B is a recipe for suicide unless you're mixing it up or recovering from up high. You don't want to get Turnip gimped, right? Recover low with Aether to beat the Toad.

Peach has very few vulnerable points. Her weakness, ironically, is in the air. Your Fair and Nair outrange her completely. Your USmash can catch her on landing. Same goes for UTilt, which also keeps her off of you. Stress Peach out with Eruption when you beat her high recovery. I made BLUE (For Glory) completely miss his recovery window because I know he was going for a low and thought Eruption was coming.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Let me warn you guys right now. I played messhia_dark on GameFAQs and I will tell you Ganondorf is not to be underestimated. He has a bad reputation in Brawl for being bottom tier. In spite of how hard he is to use and is still sluggish here, I can assure you that his Brawl rep has nothing to do with his power in this game. In an Ike matchup, you will soon find Ganondorf is incredibly hard to beat.

>Faster attacks than anything you can do
>Deceptive hitlag on powerful attacks such as Warlock Kick in the air
>Multiple, fast killing attacks at 100% damage, such as FTilt, Warlock Kick, diving Warlock Kick, Dair, and Bair
>Do NOT edgeguard a desperate Ganondorf and chase him in the air. Not only can his Up B spike you into the stage, his Uair can do just that as well as knock you too far away from the stage to recover
>While you recover, Ganondorf has a mindgame that involves using Warlock Kick from the middle of the stage to off-stage. He is NOT vulnerable at this point. When he's off-stage, he immediately cancels into Uair. This is used to bait and punish, sometimes kill.
>FTilt is a great kill move if you take a stock off Ganondorf. He'll just move around the stage a little, enough to get you in close, then pop it out of nowhere.
>Diving Warlock Kick is an ideal spike while you recover, Contrary to the fact that you can't just do a second air-hop out of it, a good Ganondorf player can jump high enough to keep from dying.
>Ganondorf can rack up damage much quicker than you can. If Ike can do DThrow into Fair/Uair/Nair three times to get him up to 56% or so, Ganondorf can just FTilt, jab, DTilt, Side B, or grab you a few times and rack up that kind of damage with ease
>Side B is their primary favorite move. Defensive Ikes are subjected to many of these
>Following up Side B, Ganondorf has the following options
-DTilt, sometimes to kill
-Side B again
-FSmash in the opposite direction. If you roll past Ganondorf after Side B, FSmash will always hit. This results in a kill around 90%
>To mixup Side Bs, Ganondorf will use dash attacks. This punishes back rolls.
>Ganondorf's Up B uppercut can beat your Eruption. Also, if you whiff the edgeguard Eruption, they can clip the ledge and punish you with a damaging Uair
>>>>>>>>>Last, and most importantly, NEVER EDGEGUARD A GANONDORF WHO IS LOW ON HEALTH.

A desperate Ganondorf who actually knows how to play the character will mindgame you into thinking you can knock them off the stage. No. They Side B you off the stage. One of Ike's most powerful tools is his edgeugarding game. He relies on shorthop Nairs, bairs, Eruption, and waiting at the stage. Ganondorf has something no other character does, and that's his Side B that allows an instant suicide death. If you're both on last stock, you have 120% on him and you've taken 10% damage, he wins.

It sounds like common sense, but so does thinking Ganondorf is bottom tier and you can do whatever you want to take him down with ease. It's not that easy. I remember facing Vermanubis' Ganondorf back in Brawl and he gave me all kinds of trouble. Ganondorf is a remarkably durable character with ways to both rack up your damage percents and Smash you for an early kill. Your durability and your blade range keep you safe, but it's also your hitlag that is Ganon's greatest weapon. One ill-timed Smash or Fair can get you killed before you realize you're dead.

And as I've stressed before, don't bother trying to edgeguard Ganondorf from the front. His hits have enough knock back to send you too far away from the stage to recover or stage-spike you with Uair or Up B.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Let me warn you guys right now. I played messhia_dark on GameFAQs and I will tell you Ganondorf is not to be underestimated. He has a bad reputation in Brawl for being bottom tier. In spite of how hard he is to use and is still sluggish here, I can assure you that his Brawl rep has nothing to do with his power in this game. In an Ike matchup, you will soon find Ganondorf is incredibly hard to beat.

>Faster attacks than anything you can do
>Deceptive hitlag on powerful attacks such as Warlock Kick in the air
>Multiple, fast killing attacks at 100% damage, such as FTilt, Warlock Kick, diving Warlock Kick, Dair, and Bair
>Do NOT edgeguard a desperate Ganondorf and chase him in the air. Not only can his Up B spike you into the stage, his Uair can do just that as well as knock you too far away from the stage to recover
>While you recover, Ganondorf has a mindgame that involves using Warlock Kick from the middle of the stage to off-stage. He is NOT vulnerable at this point. When he's off-stage, he immediately cancels into Uair. This is used to bait and punish, sometimes kill.
>FTilt is a great kill move if you take a stock off Ganondorf. He'll just move around the stage a little, enough to get you in close, then pop it out of nowhere.
>Diving Warlock Kick is an ideal spike while you recover, Contrary to the fact that you can't just do a second air-hop out of it, a good Ganondorf player can jump high enough to keep from dying.
>Ganondorf can rack up damage much quicker than you can. If Ike can do DThrow into Fair/Uair/Nair three times to get him up to 56% or so, Ganondorf can just FTilt, jab, DTilt, Side B, or grab you a few times and rack up that kind of damage with ease
>Side B is their primary favorite move. Defensive Ikes are subjected to many of these
>Following up Side B, Ganondorf has the following options
-DTilt, sometimes to kill
-Side B again
-FSmash in the opposite direction. If you roll past Ganondorf after Side B, FSmash will always hit. This results in a kill around 90%
>To mixup Side Bs, Ganondorf will use dash attacks. This punishes back rolls.
>Ganondorf's Up B uppercut can beat your Eruption. Also, if you whiff the edgeguard Eruption, they can clip the ledge and punish you with a damaging Uair
>>>>>>>>>Last, and most importantly, NEVER EDGEGUARD A GANONDORF WHO IS LOW ON HEALTH.

A desperate Ganondorf who actually knows how to play the character will mindgame you into thinking you can knock them off the stage. No. They Side B you off the stage. One of Ike's most powerful tools is his edgeugarding game. He relies on shorthop Nairs, bairs, Eruption, and waiting at the stage. Ganondorf has something no other character does, and that's his Side B that allows an instant suicide death. If you're both on last stock, you have 120% on him and you've taken 10% damage, he wins.

It sounds like common sense, but so does thinking Ganondorf is bottom tier and you can do whatever you want to take him down with ease. It's not that easy. I remember facing Vermanubis' Ganondorf back in Brawl and he gave me all kinds of trouble. Ganondorf is a remarkably durable character with ways to both rack up your damage percents and Smash you for an early kill. Your durability and your blade range keep you safe, but it's also your hitlag that is Ganon's greatest weapon. One ill-timed Smash or Fair can get you killed before you realize you're dead.

And as I've stressed before, don't bother trying to edgeguard Ganondorf from the front. His hits have enough knock back to send you too far away from the stage to recover or stage-spike you with Uair or Up B.

I question your info sometimes, you make characters seem scary when they aren't.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I question your info sometimes, you make character seem scary when they aren't.

Only going by personal experience and things to watch out for. You also have to consider this game has roughly 50 characters. With only a month of life in this game, it's nigh-impossible to have good matchup experience with everyone on the roster, especially the ones that aren't Sheik, Rosalina, Captain Falcon, Sonic, and the like. There's people using "lesser-known" characters commonly, so each battle almost feels like a fresh experience.

 

[Mario766]

Your info isn't correct.

For one, Ganon's moves are on-par if not slower than Ike's. The only things Ganon gets off a throw is a really tight timed up-air, or a N-Air which is VIable. VIing away should get you out unless he reads it and you don't dodge.

Ganon literally gets ZERO options besides a tech chase out of side-b. You can buffer a roll or tech it and get off scot-free from it.

Ganon should never be able to side-b you at the ledge with your disjoint, dtilt and f-tilt will beat it. If you're truly scared, do a retreating F-Air. There's no way Ganon gets through Ragnell with side-b unless he's going for the stage and you...which results in a free F-Air.

The main trick Ganon will use with customs is gonna be Dive Kick, which does edge cancel. That's the main thing to be wary about with Ike because Side-B turns into a tech chase every time. Spaced F-Air should keep Ganon out of most options.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Well, every time I tried to tech out of Side B, I couldn't. So at the very least, I won't doubt that lag was largely involved.

 

[Mario766]

You gotta tech it early, it's doable.

Not that you have to on Ike, if Ike is in the grounded position he can't be hit by Ganon at all unless you wait for it to wear off.

 

[Planet God Venus]

 

[Mario766]

Ike can hold all these buffs.

 

[Turbopasta]

I'm not an Ike main, but it seems like vs Shiek he's at a severe disadvantage. His attacks do around triple the damage of Shieks, but he has no way of punishing most of her attacks out of shield since she's so fast, which makes it really hard to win with a defensive playstyle. And that's not even taking the needles into account.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Villager is really bad for Ike.

>Incredibly small, so Bair goes right through him
>Incredibly midweight, so more durable than most of the roster and can survive things that would kill most characters
>Adept at luring you to the edge. Has the advantage off the edge with Fair and Side B missiles
>Fair and Bair all day. Ike's large hitbox makes him more vulnerable
>Bowling Ball FSmash off the ledge. This renders Aether recovery at a disadvantage, especially if you can't Quick Draw back to the stage
>DTilt is one of his favorite weapons against you. This includes behind him, where it will also hit you.
>Can combo aerials, like Nair into Fair
>Can easily gimp you with Uair (turnips)
>His Ftilt is very fast

It largely comes down to his fast attacks and superior aerials vs. your slow attacks and hitlag. You have midrange, but his midrange keeps him protected and his long range is your biggest weakness. I played nick on For Glory and had some tough matches. I would argue Villager is at least as bad for Ike as Olimar is.

 

[Mario766]

Villager's best weapon is playing passive and chipping damage.

A LOT of Villagers will use drop ledge jump F-Airs to stop anything you can do near the ledge, it's annoying but effective. Lloyd Rockets can be easily power shielded for little to no disadvantage.

Aerials combo you for days, daysssss. Bowling Ball shouldn't be a problem if you Aether properly though. It's also not that strong in terms of a smash unless you're already in kill percent.

You'll kill Villager much faster than Villager will if you don't mess up.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Villager is really bad for Ike.

>Incredibly small, so Bair goes right through him
>Incredibly midweight, so more durable than most of the roster and can survive things that would kill most characters
>Adept at luring you to the edge. Has the advantage off the edge with Fair and Side B missiles
>Fair and Bair all day. Ike's large hitbox makes him more vulnerable
>Bowling Ball FSmash off the ledge. This renders Aether recovery at a disadvantage, especially if you can't Quick Draw back to the stage
>DTilt is one of his favorite weapons against you. This includes behind him, where it will also hit you.
>Can combo aerials, like Nair into Fair
>Can easily gimp you with Uair (turnips)
>His Ftilt is very fast

It largely comes down to his fast attacks and superior aerials vs. your slow attacks and hitlag. You have midrange, but his midrange keeps him protected and his long range is your biggest weakness. I played nick on For Glory and had some tough matches. I would argue Villager is at least as bad for Ike as Olimar is.

hes not really bad, just outplay the little thing.

 

[megamain]

How do you think Ike fairs against Robin?

Robin vs Ike: http://youtu.be/UdT4S1EL2rc

 

[san.]

He's fine vs Robin.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

hes not really bad, just outplay the little thing.

Villager is incredibly annoying for his Fairs and Bairs.

How do you think Ike fairs against Robin?

Robin vs Ike: http://youtu.be/UdT4S1EL2rc

Completely in Ike's favor. Better mid-range, better close-range, stronger attacks, better edgeguarding, and more kill options. Robin has problems whether he/she is up close or at sword range.

 

[san.]

Villager is incredibly annoying for his Fairs and Bairs.

Doesn't our aerials completely go through his fair/bair? I thought we can aerial wall most of his longer ranged attacks.

Edit: I went to a local for the Wii U version and did fine, but I still think that Ike theoretically has difficulty vs Sheik. Although I say theoretically, Ike has an easy time racking up damage when he finally gets the nair/grab/dtilt and kills so much earlier. Feels kind of weird like Brawl Sonic vs Ike on theoretical difficulty in neutral vs. compounding risk vs reward. By design, the game felt even when Ike was at 100 and Sheik at 50.

 

[Yoh]

Villager is weird, but Ike isn´t that bad against him. We kill him so much earlier and all those aerials work just fine against his projectile game, at least for me. You just have to play a little patient, like against Sheik I still feel even, even if I got like 50% more damage than him. Thx to ragemode.

Right know everything feels like its winnable, the only character which gives me the feeling of a huge disadvantage is diddy.

 

[gsninja]

Right know everything feels like its winnable, the only character which gives me the feeling of a huge disadvantage is diddy.

Diddy and Jigglypuff are easily my worst matchups, but in the end it still comes down to spacing all day. Ike's vastly improved aerial game is doing wonders for his overall performance, and his FTilt and UTilt are pretty quick considering their killing power.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Any tips on Ike vs Shulk? I have a hard time in this match up. One of Ike's best qualities is his range but Shulk completely outclasses him in this regard.

 

[KingKilik]

In my incredibly limited experience, I did better when I stuck to the ground against Shulk. I stuck to throws, punishing with A combo, Dtilt, and shorthop Bairs.

 

[Vinchenzo200]

I played at a local tourny the other day and took third behind a diddy kong and a godlike jiggly puff. Those two matchups feel pretty god damn hard. It feels like they shutdown a lot of Ike's options.

 

[Robin1613]

My 2 cents on Sheik:

As of 1.0.4
This character has everything going for her besides one thing: Kill power
This may seem minor but this is crucial against heavies like Ike because of the new rage mechanic.
While she may dish out 30% combos after most of her hit confirmations, she won't be killing Ike till hes way into high 100s. Meanwhile a bair from Ragnell will kill her at around 110%
Sheik won't be killing you with needles anytime soon so you're going to be getting hit by those a lot, even with great maneuvering from an Ike a decent sheik is going to be able to net up the damage pretty quickly but this is where he shines.
In this matchup the most ideal situation is when you're at high percentages so that you can capitalize on Sheik's more risky kill options. Doing things like a fullhop quickdraw to bait out a bouncing fish/dash grab and punishi with dtilt into fair.
Offstage is not where you want to be at any point in this battle avoid challenging her here at all costs!
Be on the look out for for mispaced aerials as Ike's Utilt can end Sheik at around 90%

I have a write-up on diddy that ill get around to posting hopefully this weekend

 

[elliottc92]

Can anyone give me some tips on the Falcon match up? Went against a decent Falcon player earlier today who kept pressuring me with constant dashing into dash attacks or grabs and it was hard to keep up with him.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Can anyone give me some tips on the Falcon match up? Went against a decent Falcon player earlier today who kept pressuring me with constant dashing into dash attacks or grabs and it was hard to keep up with him.

spot dodge

 

[Oblivion129]

Can anyone give me some tips on the Falcon match up? Went against a decent Falcon player earlier today who kept pressuring me with constant dashing into dash attacks or grabs and it was hard to keep up with him.

I'll assume he approached you and not the other way around, which is good. Retreating aerials will beat his dashes, or retreating pivot grabs, or most things, really.
Remember you have the range advantage and try not to stay in the air to avoid getting Uair combo'd. Don't spam attacks, either, because he's faster and will punish you. Instead, react to his attacks.

 

[Xuan Wu]

The ZSS match-up is one of, if not the most common match-up for me. I do believe I've fought the character extensively enough to provide input. ^-^

Every ZSS I have encountered likes to stun you with fully charged Paralyzer shots. They tend to follow-up with Dash Attack, or with F-smash if you are stunned close enough. Evade the shots by simply jumping over them and strike with F-air, N-air, or Jab as she is vulnerable during the animation.

You can also choose to shield or powershield the shots. Doing so should result in one of following three responses from the ZSS player.

1. Another Paralyzer shot.
2. Retreat, followed by a Paralyzer shot.
3. Dashes toward you, followed by either Grab or Dash Attack

For the first situation, respond with an aerial or Jab as in the above; for the second, pursue the ZSS, then assume the same strategy as in the first situation; for the third, I like to input a spot dodge and then attack using a strong attack, like F-tilt, if the ZSS attempts to grab me. She has one of the more punishable grabs if it misses, so it should leave you ample time to punish accordingly. If the ZSS comes after you with Dash Attack, retreat and then input a pivot F-tilt as there is considerable ending lag on her DA. I also found retreating F-airs and B-airs useful.

 

[gsninja]

Diddy is a pretty gross matchup. Only one person I know uses him, but he was already the best Diddy I knew in Brawl and continues to be really good in Smash 4.

Nysyarc pretty much nailed everything we need to know about the matchup so far. Approaching Diddy's is incredibly tough and usually forces Ike to play defensively throughout the entire match, and there's not much Ike can do against Diddy's throw game. Diddy's UAir is quick and deceptively powerful, and you're pretty much done if he catches you with it towards the top blast zone.

Again, as with most of Ike's matchups, spacing is beyond important. I found that keeping NAir walls up is effective so long as you're not jumping into them, and baiting Diddy's Side B is one of the best ways to get a quick punish. BAir is by far Ike's best option for dealing with aerial approaches, and DTilt is fantastic for racking up percentage for ground whiffs. I also recommend against the full jab combo; Jab 1 to grab is typically a much, much better choice.

Also like Nysyarc said, Diddy's air game is better. Way better. The best thing you can do is maneuver and only air dodge when it's absolutely necessary because that's what Diddy players expect you to do, especially when you're above him.

As far as Diddy's projectiles, stay defensive for as long as you need to be. You can jump over the peanuts easily, but any decent Diddy player will shoot before Ike is even remotely a threat with an approach, and will punish that. Bananas are obviously not nearly as good as they were in Brawl, but Diddy also doesn't need them nearly as much as he did then. Either way, again, be defensive and avoid the banana.

 

[Planet God Venus]

N-AIR VS EVERYBODY!

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Olimar is the toughest s*** ever.

>Next to no hitlag on any move he has
>DSmash has hitlag, but shield-pushes you too far away to punish
>Relies heavily on grabbing, which goes far is hard to punish properly
>Can damage you from long range with White and Red Pikmin, which are hard to shake off
>In addition, he'll attempt to punish you if you try to jab or nair them off of you
>Relies on grabs and DSmash to punish your landing
>Very hard to hit as many of his ground attacks out-range your own
>Purple Pikmin and Blue Pikmin kill early with DSmash
>Has an excellent gimping game

Olimar has three primary weaknesses

>Air
>Durability
>Recovery

In the air, all of your attacks beat his, all the way down to Nair. It's about catching the little ******* that the challenge hits. But if you can stay on him in the air, you'll do great damage to him. His durability is so weak that he can die at under 100% from a properly-timed Uair. And his recovery can be blocked in a number of ways. The Olimar I faced was -Coco- from Nintendodojo. He often preferred to recover high, or at least use his double jump early before either getting back on stage or going for the ledge and either grabbing it or hitting Up B to reach it.

Olimar is quite vulnerable to Aether as a result, especially while recovering. Don't waste jumps trying to catch up to him if you just knocked him off the stage. He can still out-maneuver you in the air and evade you properly with superior recovery. His Up B from below his highly vulnerable to Eruption. Time it well and he will be roast. Sometimes he'll try to Up B over you. Again, a fully-charged Eruption tends to blow him up if he tried to do it from below the stage's edge.

Never waste random aerials while he's on the ground. ANYTHING you do is punishable, even from afar. Doing nothing in the air and fast-falling into a shieldgrab tends to prove effective a good bit. Use this to BThrow him off the stage to set up damage or a kill or DThrow him to either Fair/Nair/Uair combo him or fake him out and whack him with Uair for the kill.

Landing with Counter also works to beat his land-punishing USmash/FSmash/DSmash. This has actually killed him far from the edge.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

King Dedede is either the game's top tier or one of Ike's worst matchups. I just faced Gentleraine from Reddit, perhaps the best person I've ever played in Smash. But more about Dedede.

>Nearly unpunishable on every move he makes. Can get away with even DSmash and not be punished on shield or dodge.
>DTilt is used as his "get out of jail free" card. Starts up instantly and counters potential punishes. Also unpunishable
>FTilt is used randomly. Hard to see coming.
>Gordos grant him an invincibility frame on startup. This befits him for simultaneous offense and defense, as well as HEAVY damage if you're hit by the hammer and Gordo up close
>FSmash is serious mindgames. Has the HIGHEST hitbox and arc of any attack in the game, so jumping over it to punish is suicide. Very hard to punish on shield or dodge unless you're already behind him. Jump air-dodging is risky and likely not worth it. Countering is also suicide as he can just charge-time it to mess you up.
>Air game is full of Bair spam. He is safe on every one of these, making him impossible to approach
>His Fair beats yours in both range and speed and equals your power.
>DThrow to Uair/Fair combo does heavy damage
>Grab range beats yours.
>Up B cancel gives him moderate air control, which he can use to fake you out from the corner as he goes for the ledge. Attempting to punish results in YOU getting punished.
>Can control the Gordos so that they make a "wall" to keep you from approaching. He'll mix you up with a grab if you try to shield them, and if you attack, you'll just get hit by the Gordo instead.
>Is the heaviest character in the game. You will not finish him off quickly.
>Contrary to appearances, hitting Fair on his Gordo is not as effective, at least not in lag. Plus he can just run up and punish you with Ftilt/Fair/Bair while you're busy recovering from your move.

The only mild advantages you have are:

>His air game involves heavy use of Gordo. You *can* punish him with Fair for a possible early kill

Dedede's game revolves strongly around his aerials, Gordo, long grab range, and great defense. Even when you're not playing rushdown, he can still get you by punishing with grabs. And as mentioned before, even easy-looking punishes like his FSmash will get you killed because he's fairly safe.

If anyone has good Dedede tactics, please go ahead and respond to this post.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Pikachu

>USmash beats your fastfall Nair
>Fair is hard to punish since his auto-cancels
>Recovery is hard to punish if he recovers high or mid since he moves so fast with Quick Attack and is relatively unpredictable
>Rushdown game is hard to avoid. He will get you before you can move away or strike back.
>Safe gimping game with either Thunder or stage-spike Nair.

Best thing I know to do is USmash backwards when he recovers because sometimes he will try to grab the ledge and then jump into Fair back on stage.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Durango maybe you should stop losing to everyone so you can see that some Match ups are not as bad as you think. = . =

 

[Mario766]

Most of what I find from Pikachu is


>Your disjoint is your most powerful tool
>Don't get gimped, be unpredictable with recovery
>You both can combo each other, but you kill much faster
>Catch recovery in air, or Pikachu can recover from QA's landing lag pretty quick making it unable to be punishable unless read.
>Pikachu doesn't have many options off the stage before going into QA, you can kill at this point.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Most of what I find from Pikachu is


>Your disjoint is your most powerful tool
>Don't get gimped, be unpredictable with recovery
>You both can combo each other, but you kill much faster
>Catch recovery in air, or Pikachu can recover from QA's landing lag pretty quick making it unable to be punishable unless read.
>Pikachu doesn't have many options off the stage before going into QA, you can kill at this point.

Now let me tell you something that actually helps, don't do aerials vs a grounded pikachu, and spotdodge is the worst thing you can do in the neutral game vs Pikachu. Don't follow this character offstage either because he will gimp you if you miss a kill opportunity. So all together Jab is what you will use most of the time similar to brawl where you wait for opportunities to punish.

Errr don't get grabbed or you get ****ed up similar to brawl.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Ike also should have no problem vs D3 other than the Gordo spam. He actually shouldn't be able to gimp you unless you have predictable recovery patterns. AND HOW ABOUT PLAY THE MU LIKE BRAWL AND DONT GET GRABBED.