Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[PyroTakun]

So I was at the Xanadu Arcadian today, went 2-2 and drowned in pools.

Managed to beat Rosa and Pikachu, but lost to Diddy Kong and Peach, both MUs I'm not too familiar with. Diddy's Banana put in all the work, but I just couldn't figure out Peach for the life of me. Any advice for that MU?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Hmm... I have no idea how to fight a good Bowser Jr. How do I approach, specifically, getting through his walling with Fair? What can I punish? What do I do when he's above me planning to use one of his Dair combos, if he aims to land behind me so I can't shield grab him?


Also, the Ryu matchup seems more annoying than I thought, entirely because of his Focus Attack dash cancel and True Shoryuken. Focus Attack allows him to stay mobile while having armored frames, and True Shoryuken can be used out of a dash to bop us when we go for an aerial approach. Since Ike has very few multi-hit attacks, it becomes an infuriating guessing game of trying to time when it's safe to go for an attack. So how do I deal with a Ryu using lots of Focus Attack?

As a former Bowser Jr. main, I can sum up some points.

1) Don't try to challenge his Dair with Nair. That damn drill will get you from above.
2) Jump-Z grab the Mechakoopas. They hate when you use their own weapon back at them.
3) In spite of the Dair, Bowser Jr. is combo food. They get juggled greatly since they're as heavy as us.
4) Uair will combo from UThrow for a true kill at 101%, just like with Captain Falcon. Maybe even a little earlier.

For Ryu, I can't give you anything solid, only prospective. I've only faced one on Smashladder, but he wasn't very good. I would figure it's more productive to stay in the air and use plenty of grabs to avoid FADC. Getting him off stage is necessary.

PyroTakun

Having played a Diddy at HotS today, I can bet you likely choked against Diddy. They will put so much pressure on you it's not even funny. I know this because Stockfield took my first game and 2-stocked me. But I managed to pull back.

1) If he has the Banana, let him have the banana. There is nothing you can do. Once he loses it, that's your cue to strike. If he throws the banana at your shield, you can jab him since he's coming in for dash grab. DTilt works if he's at range.
2) Diddy is bait for UThrow into Fair/Nair. He combos like no other. Use as many grabs as you can since they rely on using safe moves to bait you and shieldgrab you.
3) Be patient with the Peanut Popgun camping. Not much you can do. You could tomahawk grab over a peanut since you know he's going to shield. Dash-shielding also works if you perfect shield.
4) Be wary of your Nair usage. His Fair is the best in the game for being long-ranged and comes out super fast. However, it's your best spacing weapon as always.
5) Your best punishment opportunities come from his whiffed or shielded Smashes. I'm sure you know what to do here.

I find it very hard to gimp Diddy for a number of reasons. He's overall very unpredictable. However, they're so easy to juggle and combo it actually puts us in a favorable position the moment we hit a Nair.

 

[Hanku Hirru]

Also, the Ryu matchup seems more annoying than I thought, entirely because of his Focus Attack dash cancel and True Shoryuken. Focus Attack allows him to stay mobile while having armored frames, and True Shoryuken can be used out of a dash to bop us when we go for an aerial approach. Since Ike has very few multi-hit attacks, it becomes an infuriating guessing game of trying to time when it's safe to go for an attack. So how do I deal with a Ryu using lots of Focus Attack?

I tell you h'wat...FA is annoying, but as mentioned before, the best means of combating it is anticipating it with good reads. You could respond with a grab or a jab if you anticipate he's going to fully charge FA, but even then, it's a highly punishable risk that I wouldn't advise taking. Ike just doesn't have a solid, safe answer for FA, so it's best to reset to neutral whenever and try to read him out.

 

[san.]

You have to space against focus attack where you won't get hit even if he attacks, or attack from below and fall fast enough.

It's definitely tricky near the ground when Ryu can focus attack cancel... cancel.. into an attack, but Ryu is still taking good damage from tanking hits.

 

[Arrei]

The biggest concern for me when dealing with his FA dash is that using True Shoryuken gives him invincibility on startup while also being his deadliest kill move, allowing him to intrude on our space then challenge our moves with invulnerability. It's a free punish on block, but it's simple enough for him to go for mixups with other moves instead.

 

[Crelrn]

Any suggestions against DDD? I'm having an extremely hard time punishing his aerials, especially his bair and nair

 

[Arrei]

If he's facing you in the air, come in from below. If he's facing away, come in from above. If he's floating above you, use Uair to stop his Nair, or use Aether if he's angled just right - he's a huge target so Aether really shines against him. If he's floating around waiting for you to approach, consider waiting him out too as he has much less area coverage once he's forced to fight on the ground and you can hit back attempts to cover his landing with Gordo.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

If he's facing you in the air, come in from below. If he's facing away, come in from above. If he's floating above you, use Uair to stop his Nair, or use Aether if he's angled just right - he's a huge target so Aether really shines against him. If he's floating around waiting for you to approach, consider waiting him out too as he has much less area coverage once he's forced to fight on the ground and you can hit back attempts to cover his landing with Gordo.

You're really good at this matchup stuff. Dedede has always been a problem, but only recently have I been incorporating Uair into my main game.

 

[Crelrn]

If he's facing you in the air, come in from below. If he's facing away, come in from above. If he's floating above you, use Uair to stop his Nair, or use Aether if he's angled just right - he's a huge target so Aether really shines against him. If he's floating around waiting for you to approach, consider waiting him out too as he has much less area coverage once he's forced to fight on the ground and you can hit back attempts to cover his landing with Gordo.

ooh the hitboxes for aether seem like a really good idea. Didn't think about challenging vertically as well. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Arrei]

It's just that I've played a decent amount of Dedede myself and took note of where his blindspots are. Both I and other Dededes I've faced like to float around keeping foes guessing before going for an option - Fair, which doesn't swing below him very well, or Bair, which doesn't hit above him at all but has autocancel possibility, dropping onto opponents' heads with Nair, or pulling out an Inhale or B-reverse Inhale if you like to shield a lot. And every one of these options relies on the opponent being hesitant to challenge him so a smart aggressive player can get a big reward here, since he'll almost always be doing this somewhere diagonally above his opponent and we know Dedede's combo fodder. And Ike has the unique advantage of being able to throw a transcendent projectile upwards - just make sure you don't rely on it too much.

If anything, now that I think about it a defensive Dedede might pose a bigger threat to us on the ground, since he has a disjointed jab and Ftilt to beat out our sword, similar grab combos, and Ike can't really stop Gordo while on the move since his dash attack has longer startup and takes a step forward before attacking. The good Dededes I've run across have focused more on walling me out than trying to go on the offensive a lot, but the same tactic can work for us too since it's harder for him to punish our tilts than it is for us to punish his.

 

[Crelrn]

It's just that I've played a decent amount of Dedede myself and took note of where his blindspots are. Both I and other Dededes I've faced like to float around keeping foes guessing before going for an option - Fair, which doesn't swing below him very well, or Bair, which doesn't hit above him at all but has autocancel possibility, dropping onto opponents' heads with Nair, or pulling out an Inhale or B-reverse Inhale if you like to shield a lot. And every one of these options relies on the opponent being hesitant to challenge him so a smart aggressive player can get a big reward here, since he'll almost always be doing this somewhere diagonally above his opponent and we know Dedede's combo fodder. And Ike has the unique advantage of being able to throw a transcendent projectile upwards - just make sure you don't rely on it too much.

If anything, now that I think about it a defensive Dedede might pose a bigger threat to us on the ground, since he has a disjointed jab and Ftilt to beat out our sword, similar grab combos, and Ike can't really stop Gordo while on the move since his dash attack has longer startup and takes a step forward before attacking. The good Dededes I've run across have focused more on walling me out than trying to go on the offensive a lot, but the same tactic can work for us too since it's harder for him to punish our tilts than it is for us to punish his.

Yeah the player I lost to tended to set up diagonally in the air A LOT. I knew what he was going to do but I didn't have the match-up knowledge to properly punish his habits. One of the top players in my area said that once you learned how to beat this (specific) player's D3 there will be basically no way I'll ever lose to him haha. What do you think about challenging his aerials with counter?

Also looking for knowledge in the Peach match-up. Having a difficult time punishing her since her aerials (especially fair) seem so safe. I can grab her pretty often but can't seem to capitalize off of it since she's so floaty. She has pretty safe recovery (or so it seems) so getting her off-stage doesn't seem to be netting me very many kills.

 

[Mario766]

Go out and hit her for floating. She can't do anything in that situation. If you wait for her to do something you'll be sitting around for a long time.

 

[the king of murder]

Do you guys feel like Ike completly invalidates Kirby and Jigglypuff? Whenever I fight some of the pink puffballs I just throw out my giant, autocanceled disjoints and they don't know how to deal with it. Ike kills them so damm early, it's not funny and they don't have the speed nor range to pressure me into anything. When they ask me for advice against Ike, I just couldn't give them any because I seriously don't know how they can deal with Ike besides shielding.

I know I am wrong on this but this MU seriously feels like this MU is free(I don't think it is). Maybe some of you who may have faced better Kirby/Jiggs can offer your opinion?

 

[Crelrn]

Do you guys feel like Ike completly invalidates Kirby and Jigglypuff? Whenever I fight some of the pink puffballs I just throw out my giant, autocanceled disjoints and they don't know how to deal with it. Ike kills them so damm early, it's not funny and they don't have the speed nor range to pressure me into anything. When they ask me for advice against Ike, I just couldn't give them any because I seriously don't know how they can deal with Ike besides shielding.

I know I am wrong on this but this MU seriously feels like this MU is free(I don't think it is). Maybe some of you who may have faced better Kirby/Jiggs can offer your opinion?

Jigs is basically 90/10 in Ike's favor. I'd disagree with Kirby being a gimme, but maybe that's because I've been bodied by a Kirby too hard in the past and it's clouding my judgement haha. If Kirby mixes in ducking with his fairly fast spot dodge it becomes pretty hard to punish him effectively, imo.

 

[the king of murder]

I mean Dtilt alone outranges everything Kirby has on the ground, he can't punish it and it hits him out of ducking. He is also slow in the air which means spaced Fair and Bair become a nightmare. He has some great combos and great smashes but that is about it.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Did some lab sessions with MrLuma on Smashladder. Basically, we were just trying things. First is Nair punishes (offense), second is Nair punishes (defense, such as when Rosalina loses her Luma and camps you out with safe moves), and third is punishing falling Bair on stages like Battlefield and Dream Land.

By the looks of it, you can punish her approaching Nair with DTilt. If she attempts to jab, your DTilt will come out first and she will be hit along with Luma. If she shields, Luma WILL be hit by DTilt, giving you the opportunity to punish it. If she chooses to attack you, you can essentially hold the Luma hostage and attack Rosalina instead if she uses an unsafe move, like dash attack.

In video two, it truly is hard to punish her Nairs or any retreat option if the Luma is lost. I may be missing something.

In the final video, falling Bair is truly unpunishable. However, MrLuma told me you can turn this into a chase option instead.

 

[Mario766]

I found out that super secret strat to play the Olimar MU

You don't N-AIr
You Jab like it's Brawl
You get Olimar in the air and don't care.

Then you win.

 

[Arrei]

Alright, Pac-Man's keepaway game is irritating me to no end. How do I catch this slippery little cheese wheel? He lays trampolines and hydrants in the way to force an aerial approach, as otherwise the water ruins your spacing and the trampoline forces you into the air, but he's way more maneuverable in the air than Ike is. Chasing him in the air to pursue an advantage is futile, as he can drop a hydrant while outside of your attack distance to force you to back off.

Furthermore, is his dash attack safe on shield? Because it feels like it, I can't punish that for the life of me.

 

[Mario766]

It's not. Time it to the hits.

Btw Bowser Jr boards say they beat Ike.





Kappa

 

[Arrei]

Well, I'd believe it. Good Jrs are rare, but he's got strong ground keepaway with his Mechakoopa which also sets up for combos, his disjoints and Nair for close combat, his lingering Fair for stopping approaches, myriad approach options out of his side special, and he's heavy.

Part of it was inexperience at the matchup, but I had no idea how to deal with the good Jr. I ran into a while ago.

 

[Mario766]

Our options cover Side-B, which works the same as Spin Dash, which we know we're good at beating out, only he has even less options to cancel it.

Mechakoopa is easy enough to destroy or use against him, and he can't honestly play keepaway against us because he doesn't have the mobility nor strong enough projectiles to do it. His main gameplay is mechakoopas into Kart for combo starters, otherwise his neutral gets swatted away by our huge disjoint.

HIs killing ability also pales to ours.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Curious about the Mario match up...I'm having a hard time figuring out who has the advantage in this one...

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oMZlbJXqKPtHEBFgA&sig2=EHHGjIVNUfg2aRjloRr9Qg we are currentlydiscussing ike at the maRio boards and would love your input.

 

[Arrei]

We've generally accepted that Mario has a small advantage over Ike, correct? His frame data is better than ours, but we have much greater reach. The imbalance becomes apparent with how easily he can end us with his cape for low Quick Draws and FLUDD when we're forced to use Aether though.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Reflex got me real hard with his gimping. I think Ike definitely wins the neutral game on Wario given the disjoint and jabs, but he got me by staying above my jab range and gimping me hard off stage. All things considered, what could I have done differently?

He also has a great way of waiting for me to airhop so he can fastfall Fair me. I try to go low for Aether, but don't want to get hit with a Dair spike, and I avoid going high or to the ledge with Side B since I feel Wario can trade Quick Draw with an aerial.

Also, he punished my roll. Faked it out, made me roll, and chased me for a free punish.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Less rolling and jumping more pivot grabbing. Maybe the occasional PP'd backwards Utilt when he's in the air. Just once or twice to try to keep him thinking about it.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

UTilt sounds good. What about a retreat Nair or retreat Bair to knock him out of the air? And recovery options? Go low or higher? Side B?

 

[Mario766]

What options does Wario have against Aether? He can force a trade with QD but he doesn't have much against Aether and the sword being thrown to cover Ike.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What options does Wario have against Aether? He can force a trade with QD but he doesn't have much against Aether and the sword being thrown to cover Ike.

If you go low, he can time a Dair. It has a "spike" effect similar to Luigi's Down B.

 

[Mario766]

How would he time a D-Air against Aether, unless he does it like we do with down air spikes.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How would he time a D-Air against Aether, unless he does it like we do with down air spikes.

I don't have a replay since they didn't stream the fight. But I felt very unsafe recovering against him at all times. I think he might have hit me before I could Aether, though.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Our options cover Side-B, which works the same as Spin Dash, which we know we're good at beating out, only he has even less options to cancel it.

Mechakoopa is easy enough to destroy or use against him, and he can't honestly play keepaway against us because he doesn't have the mobility nor strong enough projectiles to do it. His main gameplay is mechakoopas into Kart for combo starters, otherwise his neutral gets swatted away by our huge disjoint.

HIs killing ability also pales to ours.

SIDE B IS NOT AN APPROACH.
SIDE B IS NOT AN APPROACH.
SIDE B IS NOT AN APPROACH.
IF YOU ARE FIGHTING A BOWSER JR THAT IS USING SIDE B TO APPROACH, THEY AREN"T GOOD.
It's just like Sonic.
One more time.
SIDE B IS NOT AN APPROACH.

Now. You do have a point a Ike having a larger disjoint when it comes to attacks, unfortunately.
But a strong Jr can easily combo the hell out of Ike and screw his predictable recovery over.
The Mechakoopa is easy to destroy, yes, but it's more about the timing and traps Jr. can set with them.
His aerials are mostly faster than Ike's, so if your spacing isn't perfect you will be eating a lot of attacks.

And while Jr's kill power is lacking compared to Ike, his recovery options and gimping ability are much stronger.
Even if Jr doesn't win this MU, it's very likely around even, given SKILLED Jr. players that do NOT APPROACH WITH SIDE B.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I think Bowser Jr. would be so much more effective if his jabs barrage comboed properly.

As for Sheik, I just posted my matchup with Vinnie on the Video thread. I caught a few things, such as don't land with Fair, use jab to dash grab, stay on the ground more, don't use airhop above the stage, and don't use Up B above the ledge either. Sheik is truly Ike's hardest matchup, but I feel it's still winnable with precise playing.

 

[JJpalmer]

So something I desperately need help with is dealing with people who spam projectiles in FG mode. Namely, Link and Pit (who also spams side b).

anyone playing these characters online stand at one edge and create a wall with arrows and force you to approach haphazardly with short hops which land you into grab range. Happens with Falco too. Not a big problem with Fox since there's no knockback and I just take the damage for the rush. But Falco, Link, and Pit are some of my biggest weaknesses.

How does Ike deal with that?

I too struggle agaisnt projectiles both with ike and my secondaries any advice or genera tips would be great

 

[Arrei]

For Link and Pit: shield. They don't shoot fast enough to fully stop you, and if they keep firing past a certain point you've got an opening to jump at them and get them with Nair or a tomahawk grab.

 

[JJpalmer]

For Link and Pit: shield. They don't shoot fast enough to fully stop you, and if they keep firing past a certain point you've got an opening to jump at them and get them with Nair or a tomahawk grab.

what about Tink and Samus i lack confindence among my 3 characters to approach the projectiles coming at me

 

[Arrei]

Shielding is the way to go for Tink too. Jumping in is less effective against him because unlike Link's Gale Boomerang, Tink's Boomerang still has a hitbox on the way back, so successfully avoiding it just means it's going to screw with your attacks once you've gotten in close.

For Samus, stay mobile at medium range and watch their choices. Samus's Uair is quick and has high vertical reach, meaning if you try to jump in predictably, she can catch you with it and if you're at low percent, get you in a very damaging Uair -> Uair -> Screw Attack/Bair combo. On the other hand, if you wait for a missile you can jump in and punish, if she charges her Charge Shot you can try an approach option, and if she fires the Charge Shot you have ample distance to react and block.

For both of them, and Link, don't go for risky Fairs, you'll get grabbed.

 

[JJpalmer]

Shielding is the way to go for Tink too. Jumping in is less effective against him because unlike Link's Gale Boomerang, Tink's Boomerang still has a hitbox on the way back, so successfully avoiding it just means it's going to screw with your attacks once you've gotten in close.

For Samus, stay mobile at medium range and watch their choices. Samus's Uair is quick and has high vertical reach, meaning if you try to jump in predictably, she can catch you with it and if you're at low percent, get you in a very damaging Uair -> Uair -> Screw Attack/Bair combo. On the other hand, if you wait for a missile you can jump in and punish, if she charges her Charge Shot you can try an approach option, and if she fires the Charge Shot you have ample distance to react and block.

For both of them, and Link, don't go for risky Fairs, you'll get grabbed.

alright thanks ill have to to see if dash shielding helps me i imagine with roy and shieks speed itll be easier

 

[Crelrn]

yeah practicing mobile perfect shielding is an absolute must if you're maining Ike

 

[ReroRero]

Any tips for Zero Suit, ROB and Sheik ? For ROB I watch the grand final with Ryo vs 8 bit man but I don't know how he can glide like this when throwing items.

No Idea about Zero Suit and Sheik though. I know that I should avoid getting grab at all cost but that's all I know.