Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[Honor]

Not to take away from Arrei's post above but the Fox matchup is giving me hell right now. My tilts don't seem to be reliable (expect dtilt in certain situations) and he seems able to punish pretty hard if my spacing isn't perfect overall. Advice?

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

Not to take away from Arrei's post above but the Fox matchup is giving me hell right now. My tilts don't seem to be reliable (expect dtilt in certain situations) and he seems able to punish pretty hard if my spacing isn't perfect overall. Advice?

A Fox that is aware of the Ike MU will most likely play a rush down game since Ike has a difficult time dealing with characters like that. I have played against Larry (DEHF) who is arguably the best Fox right now. My advice on this MU is to typically play defensive but take it to a higher level. Fox can jab lock Ike with jab 1 > jab 2 > repeat, so you definitely have to be wary of those. Retreat nair seems to be risky since Fox can just punish it with a dash attack and get a follow up, so space it properly. I think doing lagless moves is ideal in this match just like Diddy. Other than that just play the space game and outrange Fox with your auto cancel aerials but at the same time implement a strong ground game with jab and dtilt. Ike can get solid follow ups on Fox since he's a fast faller so that works well for us. I don't think Fox can do much if he shields empty hop > SH bair so that can be used in your spacing game, however if he starts to anticipate it, don't throw it out too much. Once Fox is offstage and tries to recover with upB that's a good opportunity for Eruption. If you're playing a really good Fox your spacing has to be on point otherwise he will punish accordingly. I hope this helps!

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Ness has so many stupid shenanigans it's not even funny. PK Fire spam, PK Thunder spam, HUGE priority on all of his aerials, range advantage with Fair and dash attack, and just won't stay dead.

What did I do wrong and what should I improve?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVOezh8nCxY

 

[Arrei]

- Started with a full hop approach before knowing what he'd do - you can't be too jump-happy against Ness because of that Fair.
- No reason to go for the Eruption that early against Ness - again because of that Fair, it's too easy for him to double jump back on stage and hit you with it. Save it for when he's forced to use PK Thunder to recover like what you used to end his second stock. Also looks like you need to work on the timing against Ness - you released the other two Eruptions way too early.
- After getting zapped by PK Thunder offstage the first time, you tried to evade it the same way the second time and got zapped again. Instead of dodging it, try stopping it with Counter instead.
- Charged him at the edge when you were at kill percent. Against anyone with a kill throw (so Ness and Tink, for the most part, but also others like Villager sometimes) do not approach them at the edge in any position that would end with them able to Bthrow you.
- Went for a lot of unsafe moves for no real reason after respawning.
- It seems like you're just having some trouble evading the Thunders for some reason, getting back on stage directly into the spiraling Thunder he was preparing to chase you.
- That loop of Aethering into PK Fire was hard to watch. He got 50% on you just by spamming. You're no stranger to recovering low with Aether, why were you so deadset on Aethering right by the ledge?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

- Started with a full hop approach before knowing what he'd do - you can't be too jump-happy against Ness because of that Fair.
- No reason to go for the Eruption that early against Ness - again because of that Fair, it's too easy for him to double jump back on stage and hit you with it. Save it for when he's forced to use PK Thunder to recover like what you used to end his second stock. Also looks like you need to work on the timing against Ness - you released the other two Eruptions way too early.
- After getting zapped by PK Thunder offstage the first time, you tried to evade it the same way the second time and got zapped again. Instead of dodging it, try stopping it with Counter instead.
- Charged him at the edge when you were at kill percent. Against anyone with a kill throw (so Ness and Tink, for the most part, but also others like Villager sometimes) do not approach them at the edge in any position that would end with them able to Bthrow you.
- Went for a lot of unsafe moves for no real reason after respawning.
- It seems like you're just having some trouble evading the Thunders for some reason, getting back on stage directly into the spiraling Thunder he was preparing to chase you.
- That loop of Aethering into PK Fire was hard to watch. He got 50% on you just by spamming. You're no stranger to recovering low with Aether, why were you so deadset on Aethering right by the ledge?

Because, as you saw from the end of that string, the PK Fire hitbox lasts as it's dropping with you. If I would have let it continue to burn me, it would have knocked me too low to recover, so I kept going Up B to make sure it wouldn't happen again. I'm positive I got lucky, and yes, it was hard...HARD for me to deal with. I hated it, but I knew recovering low would put me in a prone position for a descending PK Fire hitbox to screw me over.

What kind of unsafe moves? I tried to approach without getting too close.

 

[Arrei]

Even if it continued hitting you a couple more times on the way down, you could've waited until you weren't in the line of fire for another PK Fire before trying to SDI out of it. Also, looking at that part again, it appears you got yourself in that predicament by being too hasty with the airdodge after fastfalling, so that's a thing to look out for.

I was referring mostly to the wild attacks you just kept throwing out for seemingly no reason, beginning with the Ftilt and up until he PK Fired your Fsmash.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Ness has so many stupid shenanigans it's not even funny. PK Fire spam, PK Thunder spam, HUGE priority on all of his aerials, range advantage with Fair and dash attack, and just won't stay dead.

What did I do wrong and what should I improve?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVOezh8nCxY

You have to watch out for Ness when he has a second jump still, as it's floaty mechanics allows for some excellent anti-edge guarding maneuvers. As @ Arrei mentioned, you don't want to go for the Eruption until after you know he has no other options but go for the sweet-spot. A well placed counter or going for the offstage n-air/b-air could work a lot better than Eruption, as you won't be sitting there waiting for a PK push to the face.

A lot of Ness' aerials have the same multi-hitbox as his dash. If you are grounded, you have to treat his aerials and dashes much like fighting Kirby. Shield and punish, and it will always take longer than you expect for the attack animation to finish. In the air, it's all about spacing. Unfortunately, Ness will have the advantage in the air so you'll want to limit how much you are there. (His second jump and f-air are BnB attacks, from what I've seen so retreating n-air or f-air will need to have very good timing and some luck to gimp. Our jump arcs just happen to follow the course needed for him to chain f-airs. )

As for any wild swinging, the only thing I can think of was that there were a couple of jab combos that you threw out that were pointless (The first jab missed and you followed through, which I'm assuming it's a muscle memory thing, as I've have a similar habit with my jabs that I'm training myself to not do.) and you would try to counter attack his rising f-air low recoveries with a FFing F-air which he'd beat out every time since his attacks would connect before your sword tip could drop low enough to get him. I have been having troubles properly countering his lower recoveries as well, since he can spice it up with f-air, n-air and u-air during such a move to throw off our edge-guarding. My recommendation above is what I've had the best experience with challenging Ness' options.(A well placed counter or a surprise off-stage attack used sparingly to go for the kill)

 

[Will Shay]

Ness has so many stupid shenanigans it's not even funny. PK Fire spam, PK Thunder spam, HUGE priority on all of his aerials, range advantage with Fair and dash attack, and just won't stay dead.

What did I do wrong and what should I improve?

Man check out my problems with the ness matchup in the posts above. Same thing for me. Send me a pm and we should do some sparring!

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

Today I played against a Villager, the guy played by the book, his timing was really good, he gave me problems, I would love some tips against Villagers..

 

[Mario766]

Did you try challenging his get-up on the ledge?

Villager is most punishable trying to get back onto the stage.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Fought Nabster's Rosalina. Is there ANY reason why he was able to gimp me so easily and how to avoid it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWMF1dpG2T0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj1E57og13I

Prior to this, Rosalina players would bait me to use Side B so they could jump up and Fair me instead.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Fought Nabster's Rosalina. Is there ANY reason why he was able to gimp me so easily and how to avoid it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWMF1dpG2T0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj1E57og13I

Prior to this, Rosalina players would bait me to use Side B so they could jump up and Fair me instead.

Rosie's offstage gimping was mostly an attack of opportunity. She saw you use up your second jump and only had to hit you with 2 tilts (one for her and one for her luma) to keep you away. You could try to go for a lower recovery, or if you think that getting a hit is inevitable you can QD into Luma to knock it away, take the tilt from Rosa (which won't knock you far) and then use your second jump/other recoveries as necessary. Being carried to the deadzones of recovery is something that I fear Ike has to try to prevent at all costs (I have a similar issue with Pit and repeated f-airs since he's got all those jumps) which saving your second jump is really the only thing you can try to do.

Otherwise, in the second match on the 3rd stock there were plenty of times where a good Eruption would have finished the match. You would send her low and deep into the offstage, where only her launch star would save her and like Pit it doesn't cause damage so the only limiting factor is your timing. Her percentage was high, so it wouldn't take much of a charge to take her out. In the few cases where she still had a second jump, you could have stayed near the edge and shielded the attack before going for the Eruption since her U-air animation takes a bit (making it safe for you to shield).

I'm surprised that in the first match at the 30 second mark you didn't wait on the edge after you snapped and do one of your 'patent pending' edge jump b-airs I've seen you kill with so much in the past.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Luigi is an absolute menace to deal with.

-Fireball combos and fireball safety.
-Overall safe on most of his attacks.
-Dash speed and Luigi Cyclone make him one of the fastest punishers in the game, close to Sonic and Rosalina.
-Abuses grab game by starting with fireball.
-Grab game can combo or kill you
-Ability to combo and rack up damage at an insane pace.
-Plenty of reach with Luigi Cyclone ending and Bair.

He has a ton of advantages mainly due to being extremely hard to punish and can build damage on you in literally no time. I have serious problems fighting him.

A huge problem with fighting Luigi is that getting him off-stage is very hard to do. If he maintains stage control using fireballs, grabs, and constant aerial walls, you can't get in on him, or he'll just get you first. I find Luigi's biggest weakness to be off-stage. You can bait the Luigi Cyclone for a serious punish, and he moves so slow in the air that it's possible to punish him, ESPECIALLY if he uses Green Missile, which can be Countered or hit with Eruption and Fair.

In the neutral, he's next to impossible to fight because of all of his ridiculous cancels and fireball game. If it were easier to go up and grab him and throw him off-stage, I am guessing he would start losing stock quick. That's one thing I noticed while watching my replays.

 

[Trunks159]

Luigi is an absolute menace to deal with.

-Fireball combos and fireball safety.
-Overall safe on most of his attacks.
-Dash speed and Luigi Cyclone make him one of the fastest punishers in the game, close to Sonic and Rosalina.
-Abuses grab game by starting with fireball.
-Grab game can combo or kill you
-Ability to combo and rack up damage at an insane pace.
-Plenty of reach with Luigi Cyclone ending and Bair.

He has a ton of advantages mainly due to being extremely hard to punish and can build damage on you in literally no time. I have serious problems fighting him.

A huge problem with fighting Luigi is that getting him off-stage is very hard to do. If he maintains stage control using fireballs, grabs, and constant aerial walls, you can't get in on him, or he'll just get you first. I find Luigi's biggest weakness to be off-stage. You can bait the Luigi Cyclone for a serious punish, and he moves so slow in the air that it's possible to punish him, ESPECIALLY if he uses Green Missile, which can be Countered or hit with Eruption and Fair.

In the neutral, he's next to impossible to fight because of all of his ridiculous cancels and fireball game. If it were easier to go up and grab him and throw him off-stage, I am guessing he would start losing stock quick. That's one thing I noticed while watching my replays.

Its horrible for me too. I have no answer for Luigi...

 

[Mario766]

I recommend staying grounded. Any clank lets Luigi almost 100 percent grab you with fireball. Do retreating f-tilt and jabs to keep Luigi from grabbing you. Stay wary for Tornado approaches, if you shield it you should be able to punish it. Luigi's weight and floatiness makes our combos hard to hit, low percents go for a buffered Up-Air out of jump 2, it's the easiest way to hit a Luigi that is DIing up. You want him off stage so you can edgeguard. Up-B is eruption bait, Cyclone doesn't sweet spot so if you read it you can shield punish it, missile is easily punishable just watch out for random misfires.

Luigi's traction makes some of our moves more safe on block, because he'll slide in his shield like in Brawl. I recommend using this for more unsafe moves.

 

[Arrei]

As previously discussed, the big things that hamper Luigi are his reach and his poor traction, as attacks that hit his shield will usually push him too far away to punish you unless you used a particularly laggy move or whiffed. This makes it safer to pressure Luigi with aggressive aerial approaches rather than the usual defensive play we employ against grab-happy matchups, as his only defenses against our Fair, Nair, and Bair are his fireballs and his own aerials - the former of which are slow enough to react to and the latter of which are very quick but much shorter ranged than Ike's swings. So pressure him, but continue being mindful of your space and momentum so you don't jump straight into an Fair. When pushed away, he may respond with dash attacks, which while extremely punishable on shield lasts an annoyingly long time and I believe has priority over our jab, so don't think the shield push is a free ticket to chase him.

Also previously mentioned, be prepared to shield when under him. His air speed makes his Nair somewhat punishable on shield, and Cyclone is punishable as well, but the danger is just how quickly and suddenly he can toss them out.

 

[Trunks159]

I recommend staying grounded. Any clank lets Luigi almost 100 percent grab you with fireball. Do retreating f-tilt and jabs to keep Luigi from grabbing you. Stay wary for Tornado approaches, if you shield it you should be able to punish it. Luigi's weight and floatiness makes our combos hard to hit, low percents go for a buffered Up-Air out of jump 2, it's the easiest way to hit a Luigi that is DIing up. You want him off stage so you can edgeguard. Up-B is eruption bait, Cyclone doesn't sweet spot so if you read it you can shield punish it, missile is easily punishable just watch out for random misfires.

Luigi's traction makes some of our moves more safe on block, because he'll slide in his shield like in Brawl. I recommend using this for more unsafe moves.

Wouldnt staying grounded leave you vulnerable to fireball -> grab?

 

[Mario766]

You have more options on the ground to deal with the fireball, if you jump you're forced to either go around the fireball or go back, which leaves you open on your landing.

 

[Trunks159]

You have more options on the ground to deal with the fireball, if you jump you're forced to either go around the fireball or go back, which leaves you open on your landing.

Hmm. Well, tbh, I think a good Luigi shouldn't loose this matchup, since we have nothing to exploit his weaknesses or a safe way of getting around his strengths. He has a way of countering our strengths and exploiting our weaknesses. I personally think its about on par with the shiek matchup.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The MU is nowhere near that bad.

Its neutral at worse. Stick with Bair/Fair: he can't grab us if he has nothing to punish, both deal enough shield push to keep him back if he blocks, both outrange his everything other than Fireball.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

So hypothetically, let's say I face an incredibly Jigglypuff or Wario player at a tournament Saturday. How should I play against them? Jigglypuff LOVES to gimp.

 

[Mario766]

Space aerials against Jiggs. Jiggs has to weave in and out of Ragnell. You're at a massive advantage if you don't get gimped, as you'll kill her insanely early.

 

[Arrei]

Shielding goes a long way against Jiggly, but watch out for Pound. Don't want to get your shield broken and eat a Rest while you're helpless. Otherwise, retreating Fair, Nair, and double-jump fakeouts are your best friends.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Reflex Wonder is going to be at the tournament. If I face him, I need to be ready.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Big things I can input on the Jiggs MU from the experiences I've recently had with good Jiggs players are that they'll be using their air superiority to their advantage (all those extra jumps!) so be on guard whenever the Pink Wonder's in the air. Jiggs aerials have some surprising reach for a short puff ball, with enough bite to throw off your game so shield n' punish go a long way. We do outreach Jiggs though, so you'll need to mix in some evasive maneuvers with some retreating f-airs to make sure your aren't conditioned for some grab combos or a Pound combo. Edge guarding will be something Ike has to do differently than normal since all those jumps make Eruption hard to use, even with deep recoveries. I've found that walk-off aerials or even Counter will work better to secure the kill since Jiggs could gimp my Eruption.

And watch your space! Rest is no joke even with our weight, so you'll want to use the reach of your sword to your advantage. Been a few times I hoped to feint past my opponent and got put to Rest instead. When going for tilts, angle your f-tilts downward or stick with d-tilt when Jiggs is grounded, as he can duck under our other attacks with good timing. (Surprised me the first time I had my own tactic used against me!)

 

[AN(M)ist]

I really need to better my ike. I've been going to local tourneys but am not really accounting for much. Would someone here be willing to have a friendly against me sometime tomorrow?

 

[Mario766]

I can do friendlies with people tomorrow.

 

[AN(M)ist]

I can do friendlies with people tomorrow.

Thanks. What say you about 9:00am PST?

 

[Mario766]

Shouldn't be a problem.

I'll post if I can't make it.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Great thanks.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Man, Luigi really does tear Ike a new one. 65/45, easily worse than Sheik. Shieldpush means nothing if the player is proficient at powershielding, which constitutes for most higher-level play. Too many ways to rack up damage quick, tons of range on Bair and Luigi Cyclone, Fireball combos and Fireball kill combos, tons of ways to play off-stage, Fireball covers, DThrow kill combos, and over-reliance on Luigi Cyclone for free punishes.

Even now, Luigi is looking to be the most OP character in the game. Honestly, this patch can't come soon enough.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Again, the Luigi MU is even at worse for Ike. If you're being powershielded constantly, you're being predictable and not sticking with Bair/Fair/Jab.

 

[Trunks159]

The MU is nowhere near that bad.

Its neutral at worse. Stick with Bair/Fair: he can't grab us if he has nothing to punish, both deal enough shield push to keep him back if he blocks, both outrange his everything other than Fireball.

Thats nice and all, but against Luigi, the neutral probably wont last long. If he grabs you, he can juggle you for 60% or more. Ike simply cant keep up. Eventhough he may not be able to punish Fair or bair (unless power shielded), Ike at that point has made no progress. If ike is limited to jab, fair, and bair, he automatically becomes predictable.

Theres just way too much to play around vs him and Luigi is pretty much safe with anything he does vs Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Luigi is not fairly safe against Ike.

Yes once he gets in its a pain. That's why its neutralish. However, we have better mobility and range than he does, and we can play in a way that leaves basically nothing for him to punish. The neutral game can last fairly long, as can our advantaged game.

Bair/Fair/Nair/Jab/Dtilt game is less predictable than Luigi's "Fireball, fish for a grab, hope a surprise tornado lets us get in" game that all of them stick to. We at least can alternative between ground and air options easily. Luigi does not want to be in the air against Ike unless its following from a Dthrow or he managed to get past Fair/Bair somehow (which would be us screwing up). Also of importance, Fair/Bair shuts down a lot of his ways to attempt to get a grab in the first place: he is almost required to try to get it off of a fireball (which we can jab, which leaves a hitbox out meaning that he can't just rush in and grab the shield).

We also destroy his recovery a lot harder than he can gimp ours. Heck once you turn on customs, his options are far too slow to get around Tempest. He also has absolutely nothing much he can do against Close Quarter Combat. CQC beats or clanks with Fireball, he doesn't have the disjointed range needed to hit us without trading.

Luigi is overrated in general. And his character design doesn't allow him to have a serious advantage over Ike. Absolute worse case scenario is 45-55 when looking at it from Ike's perspective. Without customs.

 

[AN(M)ist]

It seems Mario766 isn't online. Does someone else wanna do friendly right now or within the next hour?

 

[Arrei]

I still need some tips for Samus. Best I've been able to do is try to fake out my aerial approaches by looking like I'm going for an as they charge their shot to bait a shieldgrab, then double jump and punish, but it still feels like her options from the ground can cover anything I could do.

 

[Trunks159]

Luigi is not fairly safe against Ike.

Yes once he gets in its a pain. That's why its neutralish. However, we have better mobility and range than he does, and we can play in a way that leaves basically nothing for him to punish. The neutral game can last fairly long, as can our advantaged game.

Bair/Fair/Nair/Jab/Dtilt game is less predictable than Luigi's "Fireball, fish for a grab, hope a surprise tornado lets us get in" game that all of them stick to. We at least can alternative between ground and air options easily. Luigi does not want to be in the air against Ike unless its following from a Dthrow or he managed to get past Fair/Bair somehow (which would be us screwing up). Also of importance, Fair/Bair shuts down a lot of his ways to attempt to get a grab in the first place: he is almost required to try to get it off of a fireball (which we can jab, which leaves a hitbox out meaning that he can't just rush in and grab the shield).

We also destroy his recovery a lot harder than he can gimp ours. Heck once you turn on customs, his options are far too slow to get around Tempest. He also has absolutely nothing much he can do against Close Quarter Combat. CQC beats or clanks with Fireball, he doesn't have the disjointed range needed to hit us without trading.

Luigi is overrated in general. And his character design doesn't allow him to have a serious advantage over Ike. Absolute worse case scenario is 45-55 when looking at it from Ike's perspective. Without customs.

Diddy is also pretty predictable but most can't figure out how to be him. Being predictable isn't something that's going to bring Luigi down too much. True, while approaching, Luigi doesn't have A LOT of options, but you don't need a lot of options if your one option is just that good. Think about Ice Climbers in Brawl.

Fair and bair aren't going to wall anyone out as effectively as you may think at least in my experience. In neutral, Ike fairs fairly well I suppose. Maybe a little less than even. One Ike's options get limited, Luigi will just tear Ike apart. When Ike puts Luigi at a disadvantage, he can benefit pretty well, but outside of his dtilt to fair or dgrab to f/nair or nair to b/fair, Ike must read his opponent and if he misses, bad things can happen. Luigis combos flow very nicely and allow room for error especially against Ike. Even if Luigi messes up hes not in a bad position.

It seems Mario766 isn't online. Does someone else wanna do friendly right now or within the next hour?

I would play but im not sure about the lag between Pennsylvania and Cali.

I still need some tips for Samus. Best I've been able to do is try to fake out my aerial approaches by looking like I'm going for an as they charge their shot to bait a shieldgrab, then double jump and punish, but it still feels like her options from the ground can cover anything I could do.[/quote
s.

Simply outspacing Samus could work. Use empty hops to keep Samus on her toes and approach with ff dash grab, dtilt outranging everything Samus has, and ff nair. You could afford to be more risky against Samus since her punishes are very limited. You can maintain good spacing against Samus since her dash Speed is nothing to really talk about. Plus Samus is tall so fair and bair are option

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Diddy is also pretty predictable but most can't figure out how to be him. Being predictable isn't something that's going to bring Luigi down too much. True, while approaching, Luigi doesn't have A LOT of options, but you don't need a lot of options if your one option is just that good. Think about Ice Climbers in Brawl.

Fair and bair aren't going to wall anyone out as effectively as you may think at least in my experience. In neutral, Ike fairs fairly well I suppose. Maybe a little less than even. One Ike's options get limited, Luigi will just tear Ike apart. When Ike puts Luigi at a disadvantage, he can benefit pretty well, but outside of his dtilt to fair or dgrab to f/nair or nair to b/fair, Ike must read his opponent and if he misses, bad things can happen. Luigis combos flow very nicely and allow room for error especially against Ike. Even if Luigi messes up hes not in a bad position.

Diddy is much more mobile, has a longer reaching projectile, has a long range command grab that can be changed into an attack, and a throwable/trapping tripping hazard. With better aerials with the same attack speed as Luigi.

Heck, Ice Climbers had more approach options than Luigi does here, and better ones. Desynced Blizzards anyone? Following after Neutral B was another option for them. Or just... using their superior range when compared to Luigi on basically any move.

Diddy can be as predictable as he wants, his actions are miles ahead of Luigi's.

Fair and Bair can wall out Luigi extremely well. He doesn't have the movement speed outside of Tornado to get past them/punish them, and none of his moves outrange them. He literally has "fireball" and "hoping for a miracle with tornado" as options against those two moves. If he tries anything else he's either getting hit by the aerial, or a jab to the face afterwards.

If he messes up comboing Ike he's in a bad position. He's a floaty, non-heavy character in the air against somebody with more range/movement speed/power in the air. If he messes up that means he missed and Ike is now outside of his rather small aerial range. While Luigi ain't going to mess up his combos much in the first place, when it happens he should be getting smacked in the face hard.

 

[PyroTakun]

I've played Boss' Luigi quite a bit, and it just destroys Ike. Early percents he can just grab and get 40-60% combos, and a little bit after that he can get throws into kills. You have to play extremely smart, pretty much flawless.

But who knows how this MU will be after the 15th.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You'll have to forgive me if I think that particular situation might be more due to a different in skill levels.

It is Boss we're talking about after all. The one guy who can really mash the Tornado well enough to do all of its tricks, goes far in Nationals, etc.