Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[Rango the Mercenary]

Dedede is generally a threat to Ike due to his durability and that his Hammer matches your blade half the time. One critical weakness I noticed is Dedede has a major hard time getting back on stage. His large size coupled with his unsafe recovery options makes him a target at all times the moment you take him off stage. Your Nair alone can shut down several of his edge options, and since he can't clip the ledge with an airhop (he has to descend from it first), you can Bair him for free against the ledge.

Quick Draw is highly effective against Gordo, so long as it's not above you.

DThrow/UThrow combos can go past 80%.

If anyone else has anything to add on Dedede, please let me know. He's one of those characters I get anxious about when fighting since I haven't played many.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Little Mac punishes your punishes. He messes up, you attack, he blocks/dodges/attacks before you do. His hitbox-shifting FSmash renders your spacing game useless when you try and Bair. He has great range despite his small size and can build up damage and kill relatively quickly. Also, his KO punch is guaranteed if you're facing someone extremely good.

Not to mention the inescapable DTilt-KO Punch combo. If you're at 0%, he can DTilt-DTilt-KO Punch you, which is a guaranteed kill.

I disagree with Mac being a bad matchup for Ike. All it takes for Ike to kill Mac is literally a F-throw/B-throw and a charged F-smash/Eruption, which can literally cover all of his options. Ike's dashgrab as I recall is strong enough to fairly consistently punish Mac for using a Smash on your shield.

Ike also doesn't really lose the ground game very hard vs Mac, because his Jab is also really solid and has to be respected out of shield.

Dedede is generally a threat to Ike due to his durability and that his Hammer matches your blade half the time. One critical weakness I noticed is Dedede has a major hard time getting back on stage. His large size coupled with his unsafe recovery options makes him a target at all times the moment you take him off stage. Your Nair alone can shut down several of his edge options, and since he can't clip the ledge with an airhop (he has to descend from it first), you can Bair him for free against the ledge.

Quick Draw is highly effective against Gordo, so long as it's not above you.

DThrow/UThrow combos can go past 80%.

If anyone else has anything to add on Dedede, please let me know. He's one of those characters I get anxious about when fighting since I haven't played many.

I find DDD explicitly favorable for Ike.

Ike's superior mobility in this matchup is very hard for DDD to deal with, as DDD basically has no midrange game especially if you have easy ways to swat the Gordo like Ike, meaning you just constantly force him to make unfavorable guesses by just hopping around playing outside of his F-tilt range until you see an opening. Ike also cares much less for DDD's multiple midair jump shenanigans to avoid juggles compared to most characters when Aether is a pretty easy response for juggling DDD for trying to do that.

Also, you can often reaction punish a lot of things DDD does with Quick Draw if you're fast. This gives Ike a very significant advantage in neutral in this matchup, as DDD in most situations does not have the mobility to really easily bait you.

The only thing I currently don't remember is how Eruption edgeguard interacts with DDD's Up-B. If I'm correct, it is really likely to hit DDD during the universal 1 frame ledge vulnerability window where DDD will not have armor frames, which then makes it a really easy KO option on him. I could be wrong though. If for any stupid reason he tries to recover high and land with his Up-B, that's simple to react to with Counter as well. Counter is also a good response to his edgetrap game if you feel confident.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

The Dedede I fought was highly susceptible to Quick Draw. Granted, he wasn't using all of his safe options. I would find that Ike *should* be favorable against other heavyweights. He has matching strength, but more range and less hitbox and is the suitable weapon against them - which is why he has a harder time against faster characters, like Fox and Pikachu.

 

[Arrei]

I find Dedede's weakness against Ike is the fact that he has a lot of horizontal reach in his Ftilt and jab2, but very limited diagonal options compared to the arc of Ike's Fair and Nair. I only really have theorycrafting based on my own playstyles as Ike and Dededoo to go off of, since both of them are pretty rare beasts to encounter on FG, to say nothing of encountering actually half-decent ones.

Dedede is really good at stopping direct ground approaches, but all of his anti-air moves are pretty slow and nowhere near as long as his frontal attacks. What I prefer to do as Dedede is hop and drop vertically-angled Gordos to mess with opponents' air approaches, which you may recognize as a profoundly bad idea against Ike when his preferred approach is a Nair or Fair spaced so that he's out of punishing distance should his attempt fail - might avoid the blade, but now there's a Gordo aimed at your face! The other thing is, since Ike likes to play defensively, grabs are a big danger to him, and alas, poor Dedede's just too slow to really follow up any of his spacing tools with a grab. As mentioned, Super Dedede Jump is also somewhat easy to guard with Eruption, and should he try to go directly on stage instead, it'll either be extremely telegraphed for a change in plans or an invitation to just blast his ass out of there.

Oh, and there's the fact that the big lug's huge and heavy enough to use two throw -> Aether combos per stock if you catch him at 0%, so you can really put the hurt on him.


The one thing I've got to mention is to be careful of his Bair, though - he doesn't look it, but Dedede's able to SH autocancel that bad boy.

 

[Ffamran]

Sun up to sun down,
The sons of a battlecry.

And so the sun radiantly shines on the Hero of the Blue Flames. Hello from the Falco boards where we just started up our Ike matchup discussion and the strategies of the Radiant Hero would be welcome. Link to the discussion: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...ion-20-ike-our-friends-are-our-family.395737/.

The discussion is ongoing, so drop in whenever... Just don't break the furniture with Aether... We're poor as is with our empty bakery.

 

[Mario766]

DDD is vulnerable no matter what he does outside of getting the ledge from down below. Eruption beats on-stage Up-B as does up-air if you hit him from the side.

Also for Falco I got nothing. I hate his frame 4 back air but that's about it.

 

[Will Shay]

I have been using game and watch as my secondary to cover ikes bad matchups, good choice? I have a very very hard time with Ness and Pikachu as Ike, and G+W seems to bring me to a 6/4 or min 5/5 matchup against them. Thoughts?

 

[Ffamran]

DDD is vulnerable no matter what he does outside of getting the ledge from down below. Eruption beats on-stage Up-B as does up-air if you hit him from the side.

Also for Falco I got nothing. I hate his frame 4 back air but that's about it.

If you like, you can post here and request fights with Falco players: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[Mario766]

I have been using game and watch as my secondary to cover ikes bad matchups, good choice? I have a very very hard time with Ness and Pikachu as Ike, and G+W seems to bring me to a 6/4 or min 5/5 matchup against them. Thoughts?

I never have massive problems with Ness.

PK Fire is the most important part of the match-up. If you don't get hit by it, it's a lot easier. You can DI the f-air chains so you don't get carried off the stage for free.

 

[Will Shay]

I never have massive problems with Ness.

PK Fire is the most important part of the match-up. If you don't get hit by it, it's a lot easier. You can DI the f-air chains so you don't get carried off the stage for free.

I play an extremely good ness player though to be fair, he punishes everything, can't use spacing pressure usually cause when i whiff i get punished bad.

 

[Mario766]

What exactly is he punishing?

Your SH aerials should auto cancel unless you're FFing the F-air, he shouldn't be able to punish it unless you space badly or whiff something punishable.

 

[GhostUrsa]

What are some recommendations for preventing rushdown characters from overwhelming Ike? Characters I always have trouble with are aggressive Captian Falcon, Sonic, Little Macs when they come at me from the ground. It should be easier than I'm having it, as their approach options are limited. (Which makes predicting what they'll do easier) But once they actually get you, they seem to juggle Ike for quite a while. Falcon and Mac hit hard enough where ignoring the rack up is dangerous, and all 3 seem to have fast start ups with their dash and grab attacks which can allow it to slip under Ike's aerial when trying to make retreating n-airs. A good jab can beat out a grab if you can get the timing perfect, but a good opponent will be mixing up their dashes in there (which don't clank against a jab, from what I've seen) which makes predicting which of the two they'll do difficult.

I've mixed up a short hop d-air at times to hit them as they run under, and retreating pivot f-tilt sometimes when I know they are going for the dash attack and have fired it early but nothing seems to be a simple counterattack to their attack options compared to the ease at which they can constantly attempt their mix up approach options.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Captain Falcon isn't terrible. Just don't wind up in Fatality's condition-read Dair to footstool 0-death. Spacing him with Bair works wonders, and he's incredibly vulnerable to Eruption. Plus if he's always charging at you, DTilt him. Then he'll have to approach with Bair/Nair, which you clearly outrange.

Sonic is pretty bad, though. Play pure defense but don't use Nairs like you do with most characters. They're looking for that punish.

Little Mac is a terror and arguably Ike's worst matchup besides Sheik. There really isn't much you can do besides goad him to the edge since it's easier to punish him with dash-grab into BThrow from there.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

LM is not a bad MU for Ike.

You're the only one who thinks that it is. Like wise Sonic ain't bad either.

 

[Mario766]

F-air kills Mac at pretty much any percent. Without proper DI Mac dies at like 30 to an f-air off stage.

 

[Arrei]

Against Falcon, I tend to have reasonable success just jabbing him in the face when he approaches. Otherwise I respond to his dashes by jumping over him and then fastfalling an aerial, but I can't rely solely on that or he can catch on and start challenging me with Uairs.

Sonic is a bit trickier because we're forced to defend whenever he uses a spin dash or homing attack, or a Quick Draw alternatively on the spin dashes, but if Sonic reflexively tries to use his followups after a blocked spin dash, that's a free Bair. When they start directly dashing in, I do the same as against Falcon and punch him in the face, because I do not want to get grabbed. Also, I think a running Usmash is capable of faking out the homing attack from the right distance, as he'll aim for your head, miss due to your running momentum and the lowered hitbox, and slammo.

 

[GhostUrsa]

New question. I just encountered a good Pit player who was able to juggle me off the stage with repeated f-air between all his extra jumps. His timing was impeccable too, as it was able to get in while I was unable to DI out of them. He was able to gimp an early stock off me in 2 of the 3 matches I did against him. Has anyone seen this, and if so, did you discover a way to get out of it?

I'm still puzzling against it myself since it puts Ike too far out of range for his jumps and Aether to get him back from the stage a good chunk of the time, and god help you if he got you after you used your double jump.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

LM is not a bad MU for Ike.

You're the only one who thinks that it is. Like wise Sonic ain't bad either.

You saw my videos, right? I've also played other Little Macs that give me a chill down my spine, whereas I'll fight them using another character (like Captain Falcon) and not feel any stress at all. Little Mac is incredibly safe and hard to punish, and he can 0-death you with DTilt, DTilt, KO Punch in an inescapable combo - DTilt, KO Punch at higher percents, also inescapable.

Plus he's amazing at tracking your landing and punishing you for it, especially if you try and attack and he'll just armor-smash you.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've seen them.

You still gotta understand if you're literally the only Ike who believes that, that the odds of you being correct and literally every other Ike here being wrong are basically zero.

Its a MU you personally struggle with, but when looking at it strictly by characters, Ike wins the MU.

 

[Ecchin]

Guys i have a headache with the Luigi MU, i don't know how to play against him, any tips?

 

[Mario766]

Don't get grabbed.

Generic, I know, but that's the entire match-up.

 

[Arrei]

If you're landing near him, always try to hit him - pushing him away in his shield is vital to not getting grabbed.

If you're under him, be prepared to shield then react accordingly. Luigis like to attack as they land, and they're quick. His air speed is slow enough to simply get away or shield grab if he tries to land without doing anything.

 

[Ekans647]

How do I deal with Sonic? I try to space him with pivot f-tilts and SH nair, but I feel he's able to invade my space so easily. I don't lose it all the time, but it's one of my weaker MU's

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Spacing with Fair and Bair is better: Nair has a small amount of landing lag. Those two don't when used correctly.

Also, shield. A lot. Shielding stops all of his spin dash options except for one, grabbing. And that option requires him to shield first.

Jab may also clank out spin dash, I don't know for sure.

 

[Ekans647]

Spacing with Fair and Bair is better: Nair has a small amount of landing lag. Those two don't when used correctly.

Also, shield. A lot. Shielding stops all of his spin dash options except for one, grabbing. And that option requires him to shield first.

Jab may also clank out spin dash, I don't know for sure.

So just play defensively and punish. Sounds good to me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You go aggressive when you have the advantage. If you're able to throw a Sonic off balance, be relentless and continue after him, until the moment he gets away or lands a hit. Then instantly go back to turtling.

 

[Will Shay]

What exactly is he punishing?

Your SH aerials should auto cancel unless you're FFing the F-air, he shouldn't be able to punish it unless you space badly or whiff something punishable.

If he catches me in a pk fire on ground it's a vortex, roll forward is punishable but hardest to punish. block is punishable into grab (see the next paragraph about his throw vortex =|) and back roll is punishable by him dash attacking (third hit delays long enough to hit at the end of the roll animation.

Out of dthrows at MOST percentages (capping at around ~60%) Ness has true combos against ike, He can either double jump at low %'s and get me on at least 1 uair, or 2 fairs if i lean away and not towards.

It's difficult to pressure for a few reasons... Most of my pressure is aerial, and i have two options off short hop that aren't punishable, forward special after shorthop then either 1. ftilt when I land (counter for possible punishable mixup) 2. pivot grab or pivot neutral a combo

With ness's grab having such great reach and priority, it's seemingly impossible to avoid punishment even after fast falling or short hopping a fair for an aggression. Plus ness is heavier and easier to kill than he looks...

I've tried countering the recovery, and the spacing and timing is really difficult, if you whiff you die too.

I'm surprised noone else has a tough time with the ness matchup

 

[Arrei]

PK Fire is dangerous if it hits, but you have enough time to jump over it and still hit him with an FF aerial if you predict it coming. He should not be able to punish you on block unless you shielded directly in front of him, either.

You should not be relying too much on autocancel Quick Draw. What you should be using more of are jabs and Dtilt, then go for the aerials when you have him off balance. Ftilt is difficult to use on Ness on account of his dash attack and very punishable.

When he's recovering, if you can't swat him away with an offstage aerial (Fair should kill under most circumstances if you have him at the point he needs to use Thunder) just go for the Eruption ledge kill - with the preparation needed to actually recover with PK Thunder it's one of those extremely telegraphed recoveries that are easy to hit.

 

[Will Shay]

In response to... "You should not be relying too much on autocancel Quick Draw. What you should be using more of are jabs and Dtilt, then go for the aerials when you have him off balance. Ftilt is difficult to use on Ness on account of his dash attack and very punishable."

It's true, the first ~ 40 hours of me playing ike I remember using dtilts a lot more and at my peak (a month ago I hit a plateau and feel like i've been getting worse somehow...) I was jabbing a lot. I should be doing more of that. Also, the point about the ftilt being easy to counter by ness is very true, in fact, mostly anything that you whiff on unless you tech land and dodge perfectly is punishable by ness, honestly! The problem with dtilt and this matchup, and jabs, is that ness's jab, ftilt, and dash attack all have ridiculous priority. I get grabbed out of dtilts or jabbed out. which is frustrating since a great tool to rack up a quick 50% from 0 is dtilt into SH H fair FF into utilt. I think it comes out at ~ 40% actually. but yea I havent had even the best players ive faced not be able to tech out of that so I'm suspecting that it's a true combo...

ANYHOW...

In response to ... "When he's recovering, if you can't swat him away with an offstage aerial (Fair should kill under most circumstances if you have him at the point he needs to use Thunder) just go for the Eruption ledge kill - with the preparation needed to actually recover with PK Thunder it's one of those extremely telegraphed recoveries that are easy to hit."

I think I should be chasing him a bit more, but the problem is the ness I faced was very skilled... His Pk thunder control was incredible, I saw him bounce off the wall and recover repeatedly, and on the LEFT SIDE. which if you play ness you know it's disgustingly hard to time. So anywho, he had really quick recovery, it was really hard to react appropriately, especially because if you whiff the fair you will die =\

Thanks for the thought out response =]

 

[LonkQ]

Is there anything you can do to a camping Pikachu? It just seems really frustrating for Ike having to navigate through all those Thunderjolts plus you can't really do anything if an aerial hits your shield.

 

[Arrei]

Against Pikachus, the only real thing you can do is stay on your toes with your shields and dodges. A good Pikachu will primarily shoot jolts from a full hop so he can stay mobile, which really messes with your aerial approaches, and he's going to try to get a grab on you while you're busy with the jolts as well. Jump over the jolts if you can and go for a grab, jab, or FF Fair if you see an opening - Pikachu's short, so landing Bairs will be more difficult. Or, since the jolts are pretty slow, it should be relatively simple to powershield them while you approach. Pikachu's aerial options are all quick, but like a lot of his moves they don't have much reach, so look for a chance to hit him with Fair or Nair if he jumps at you. Get a good feel for how many times his Fair and Bair can hit before you drop your shield for a shield grab or jab, too. He's able to fit any of his aerials into a short hop, but for the most part he needs to commit to their momentum.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Is there anything you can do to a camping Pikachu? It just seems really frustrating for Ike having to navigate through all those Thunderjolts plus you can't really do anything if an aerial hits your shield.

Jabs are your friend since Pikachu loves to approach with grabs. Once he stops trying to dash-grab you, he'll pretty much stick to aerials until you're near kill percents. DTilt is a huge friend in this, and you will always value your grabs. He's so small that it's going to be hard to strike a solid UTilt or Bair to finish him off. My advice is attrition him - just keep wailing on him with jabs and whatnot to build damage until he's at 130% or so, then DThrow. You're also better off not playing him on Smashville if possible.

Don't let him goad you into airdodging either. If he starts reading your air-dodges during his strings, start using Nair instead to get him off of you.

 

[PyroTakun]

Anyone have advice for fighting Villager? Lost to the same dude in two different tourneys cus I couldn't find a way to handle the rockets with F-Airs + B-Airs.

 

[Mario766]

Get in close and don't let Villager breathe. Shield often, and throw out hitboxes to scare Villager to stop camping. You win up close, hard. Side-B is punishable up close, and you can run right through it or short hop aerial through it without taking damage. You can't do much off stage, don't try. Up-Smash can hit Villager out of a ledge jump f-air/b-air if he ****s up his timing just a little, or can hit him during the jump right as his invincibility dies down. The only other thing to watch out for is a sapling for surprise trees and nair. Everything else is pretty cake.

 

[Sol0ke]

Yea, shielding and carefuly throwing out attacks see to be the best thing to do against Villager. The matchup is definitely doable.

 

[Ffamran]

I wonder if crouching might work against Villager's Fair and Bair?

 

[Mario766]

Up Smash puts your hitbox lower to the ground, so it does the same type of idea. Villager is punishable if they mess up their vertical spacing of the slingshot.

 

[Ffamran]

Down Smash and Dtilt too. Maybe Ftilt and Utilt?

 

[Mario766]

Ftilt and Utilt do pretty little. Dtilt and D/U smash would be the best options. Up Smash covers the most options though.

 

[Arrei]

Alright, I need some tips for approaching Samus. Had a rough time against a good one today - it was a doable fight, but she forces Ike to do full jumps to avoid charged shots, has a fiendishly long range on her grab, can stop attempts to get over her with Uair and Screw Attack, and is heavy but has the awkwardly floaty air velocity that the slow fallers have, making it harder to combo her.