Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[GhostUrsa]

Once we've finished discussing Olimar, I vote for Captain Falcon. He's been my current thorn of late, and some ideas to keep him off my tail enough to take him out would be good. In the mean time, I'll see if I can get some more Olimar fights in so I can help put in any more data into the MU.

 

[PyroTakun]

Hmm, I'm not really sure if I'm comfortable moving the topic over just yet. And Lucario was requested before Olimar.

I honestly don't think we have enough on Diddy yet. I'll post on the Diddy boards again and see if I can get any input from them.

 

[Saturn_]

I've been playing Ike a lot and I really like his playstyle. One question I had, who are the best characters that you think Ike has a favorable matchup against? Because poking through this thread it seems like everyone is very pessimistic and doesn't think Ike matches up well with the top tier chars. Who are the best characters that Ike goes at least 55:45 on?

 

[Arrei]

Well, I don't know if it's just me, but Jigglypuffs seem rather easy to take on for Ike - her usual advantage, her long-lasting hitboxes, becomes extremely easy for Ike to capitalize on with his disjointed reach, and her typical aggressive playstyle tends to have her play right into a well-timed Counter.

Rosalina also doesn't feel that bad a matchup, though my experience only goes as far as For Glory offerings, as his reach is again a pretty good tool, this time for slapping her Luma right in the face to knock it off stage with ease. Ike's bread and butter aerials are also really good at racking up damage on a defenseless Luma, as there are very few openings for Rosalina to try and knock you away while you're going after it.

 

[GhostUrsa]

I've been playing Ike a lot and I really like his playstyle. One question I had, who are the best characters that you think Ike has a favorable matchup against? Because poking through this thread it seems like everyone is very pessimistic and doesn't think Ike matches up well with the top tier chars. Who are the best characters that Ike goes at least 55:45 on?

The pessimistic feeling is mostly because the match ups people have trouble with are where the most attention is applied currently. What I can say about Ike is that almost all the 'Top tier' character (there are no such thing yet) aren't that far ahead of him. With good fundamentals (Knowing how to DI, understanding Ike's spacing game, knowing how good zoning works, etc) and mind games, Ike can overcome them. The only real threat right now is Diddy Kong (all those options!), and since everyone is focusing on how to take him down right now it may not be for long.

Ike has plenty against most of the cast. Most light weights fear him since his ability to KO is near legendary. He may not be able to combo as well as other characters, but he hit's hard enough where after 2 or 3 hits (the length of most of his combos) Ike's opponents are already in a uncomfortable position. His heavier weight also makes it harder for them to secure the KO, as long as the Ike player keeps his head. I've never had problems against Kirby, barely against Jiggs and Meta knight, and only a slight issue against Pikachu, ZSS and Fox.

He's got some moves that both KO and have some surprising speed to beat out other heavy weights in kill power too.

He also outspaces most middle weights, which makes it so he can keep even with most of them. He's able to overpower Marth and Lucina, who only have speed on their side and have to contend with both your range and power. Ike isn't the fastest character, but he's one of the faster heavies which allows him to keep up with most of the middle weights as well. (Hell, I think he outruns some of them, like Robin, Lucario and Mega Man)

Ike's higher speed and ability to disrupt projectiles with his sword allow him to beat out most heavy weights. His range helps keep him safe during attacks (I think DeDeDe is the only heavy that out ranges him.) and his speed gets him out of the way of most attacks (And his counter can slip into their smashes that you don't think can be dodged easily!). Most heavies only really have a special grab to counter balance Ike's range and speed, as the few with zoning capabilities can easily be canceled by a well placed n-air or f-air. (Except maybe Samus's full charged Charge Shot, though that can be countered.)

All my points above are real broad generalizations, so these can change as we get to those specific characters and get everyone's experience into account. Currently there isn't a real 'Against these guys you have an advantage' list yet because different Ike players are having different issues with the many matchups, so it will take a while to compile compared to the 'These guys we have an uphill battle' list. (The former list will be bigger, with the size of the roster and all.)

Personally, I have a problem against Ganondorf currently with all those super armor frames he's got and Yoshi's smashes has some surprising speed and length that can easily catch an Ike off guard. (Though I do like back flip to Aerial QD to bait out Egg throws and then slide underneath them for a nice surprising punish. Helps scare them out of using those bloody things for zoning.) If I don't find ways around these on my own, then I know we'll eventually get to them here. I may even be able to contribute to their demise in the ring!

@ PyroTakun I didn't mean to jump in line with my Cap recommendation. I more wanted to get him on the list. I couldn't remember who was next at the time of the posts writing and figured I'd get him recorded before I forgot.

 

[Arrei]

Ganondorf only has super armor on grounded forward Warlock Punches, to my recollection. I certainly don't remember having my attacks stopped by anything else.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Ganondorf only has super armor on grounded forward Warlock Punches, to my recollection. I certainly don't remember having my attacks stopped by anything else.

I know his D-air does, as I've hit him hard with Ike's QD while he was doing it and saw the Armor flash. He can gimp Ike's recovery pretty well if he intercepts his QD in the air with it. (He doesn't flinch, and you don't have knockback so you naturally fall right where the hit needs to land.)

Maybe it's just heavy armor combined with movie priority instead of Super Armor, now that I think about it though. I was able to intercept a stage spike from him with a b-air to keep him airborne in my last match yesterday.

We'll get back to Mr. Dorf later. As for Diddy, what have others been able to do to keep Monkey flip from connecting? It's one of the few annoyances I have against Diddy that I'm still not quite sure how to counter since Diddy can have it be a grab or kick. Preventing the Hoo-hay is annoying but do-able since you have to use anti-grab tactics, but I've had a hard time getting the KO from High or Middle recoveries because of the ability to Mix up his approach.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Vs. Pikachu

>Punishing Quick Attack
>Escaping the aerial combos
>Escaping Uthrow + Thunder

Having problems. Anything I should know?

 

[san.]

Pikachu wouldn't be very threatening if not for quick attack. Try to play horizontally focused and watch out for QA. You can DI uthrow. QA can be beaten by utilt or positioning based on the QA direction. It is good, but limited if used too much.

Jab and dtilt are both good vs pika's low range. QA can destroy our spacing, so aerial spacing depends on reading when pika will QA. Power shield jolts. Even so, our aerials can beat out pika if he tries to perform his own aerial.

QA offstage can be punished by Ike. Pika pauses before QA, so you only need to time for the first or second QA jump. Pika can release from the ledge quickly, so holding eruption an extra half second vs the ledge release is also situationally useful.

Offstage, recover high. You'll take damage, but you will return. Pika is vulnerable when he is trying to kill.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

After playing the tournament, I did some more friendlies with jda7 and learned a few things. Namely, Pikachu's not as vulnerable to UThrow or DTilt combos at late percents. He tends to air-dodge when he sees them coming. This opens up opportunities for air-dodge reads into Bair or even a UTilt or perhaps a USmash. I wasn't able to land any of these before I had to leave, but I will gladly do it the next time we play and post my results since I'll be able to record the matches as well.

Pikachu has a good death combo involving Bairs that can seriously mangle and gimp you if he gets you off the ledge. That and Fair chaining are both something to watch out for.

I've also learned to punish his Quick Attack "triangle" (forward, then diagonal towards you). Sit in place and DTilt or pivot DTilt. Also very susceptible to Nairs.

Pikachu can still be hit with combos, and even landed DThrow combos at a later damage, but if you see the airdodge coming, you can probably inflict more with a Bair.

 

[Planet God Venus]

After playing the tournament, I did some more friendlies with jda7 and learned a few things. Namely, Pikachu's not as vulnerable to UThrow or DTilt combos at late percents. He tends to air-dodge when he sees them coming. This opens up opportunities for air-dodge reads into Bair or even a UTilt or perhaps a USmash. I wasn't able to land any of these before I had to leave, but I will gladly do it the next time we play and post my results since I'll be able to record the matches as well.

Pikachu has a good death combo involving Bairs that can seriously mangle and gimp you if he gets you off the ledge. That and Fair chaining are both something to watch out for.

I've also learned to punish his Quick Attack "triangle" (forward, then diagonal towards you). Sit in place and DTilt or pivot DTilt. Also very susceptible to Nairs.

Pikachu can still be hit with combos, and even landed DThrow combos at a later damage, but if you see the airdodge coming, you can probably inflict more with a Bair.

Jda7 is pretty poop

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Jda7 is pretty poop

How do you manage his Pikachu?

 

[Planet God Venus]

How do you manage his Pikachu?

All Pikachu's are not good

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Gives me plenty of trouble honestly. He knows some Fair/Bair gimp combos that can put me under the stage at low percents. I learned to punish Quick Attack better, but his Pikachu is still very safe and hard to punish. Plus I can't seem to escape UThrow into Thunder. His Fair/Dair auto-cancels are hard to get by, his UTilt hits me from behind, and he loves his crossups.

Bowser has also given me mild problems. FTilt shifts his hitbox and punishes me for using DTilt. It also goes farther than my FTilt, leaving me at a disadvantage for reliable ranged attacks. As we know, his Fair beats yours in speed, so you have to stay far to use it. His grabs also seem to beat DTilt as well as your own grabs.

Lastly, his USmash is lethal. It goes through all of your aerials, punishing you in the process as it goes through your blade. It's a move used to maintain stage control and punish your recovery, whether while landing or recovering from the ledge. As I've said, it beats all of your aerials by going through the attack and hitting you.

 

[Arrei]

Nair and shorthop Fairs seem to be the most useful for me against Bowsers, as you don't want to hit a shield in close quarters because of OoS Fortress and his jab and Ftilt have decent speed and range. Most important of all is being patient and baiting out attacks you can evade or block, so using Nair and SH Fair to test the waters while keeping him at maximum distance goes a long way towards avoiding his punish options. SH Bair is also extremely useful since Bowser is tall and easy to hit with it, but due to his weight you might want to use it conservatively so you have it ready to secure the kill - Bowser with rage can end you before you know it. As for ground options, other than fishing for grabs you'll probably want to limit those to using jabs and Dtilt to punish Bowser's jab, Dtilt, and Ftilt. Bowser is at his most dangerous when he's playing defensively and reacting to your failed moves, so beat him at his own game.

Also, a good Bowser will be throwing in Fire Breaths to make you respect his range, usually to disrupt your attempts to approach from the air. An empty jump into Counter when he thinks he's got your patterns figured out can thwart that.


On the subject of the Diddy matchup, it seems like most of us just don't have much other wisdom to share on him. For me, I hardly even run into Diddys on FG, to say nothing of Diddys that actually know what they're doing.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Yeah, most Diddys on FG I played against just try to spam dthrow to up air and don´t even try to change their strategy when they see that it doesn´t work. Kinda funny actually

 

[san.]

Ike's and Bowser's fair have the same speed. Bowser's will hit first up close because of Ike's arm hurtbox, while Ike's will hit at max distance.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

All Pikachu's are not good

Also, we should play sometime. Shout on my page or message me if you're up for it soon.

 

[Planet God Venus]

I don't play many people.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Also, I grabbed sheik out of bouncing fish... I'll be showing a vid of it soon since it is very strict on timing but easy once you get it!

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I have major problems fighting ROB and Dedede.

ROB is hard to punish with his aerials - all of which seem to have as much range as Ike's Fair/Bair and more than his Nair. Keeps you at range and punishes your jumps with Robo Beam and Spinner, and is quite heavy. He just won't go down no matter how much you attack him and uses Fairs, Nairs, and Rolls to get in efficiently.

Dedede is heavier, so he doesn't die from FTilts at 100%. Gordo keeps you away and is very hard to punish. You can't jab the Gordos - they trade, so you have to time Fair/Nair/Bair just right. Counter gets you hit instead. Nearly every one of Dedede's aerials auto-cancel, leaving him invulnerable most of the time, as well as out-ranging your aerials with his Hammer. Recovers from moves like Inhale very quickly, also making it hard to punish him. His grab range is as good as Diddy's, going much farther than yours.

 

[Arrei]

It's very much possible to jab Dedede's Gordos back at him. Dedede's Fair and Bair are slower than Ike's Nair and Bair, and I'm fairly sure they don't outrange Ike's Fair and Bair, either. His SH Fair does not autocancel - the one you really need to watch out for is Uair when you're above him, because his juggling ability is deadly. Although he has good grab range, he does not have a very quick dash, giving you more time to evade him. On the ground, you'll need to watch out for his Ftilt and Jab2, which are his farthest reaching moves, but also a couple of very punishable moves on shield. His weight may make him hard to kill, but he's also very easy to combo once you get a grab, Dtilt, or Nair on him, and despite how good his aerial game is there's not much he can do when you're diagonally below him, so make every opportunity count to get some hits on him.

 

[GhostUrsa]

To add to the DeDeDe conversation, It's actually fairly easy to punish some of his aerials with a dash attack since they have some landing lag. Hell, TripleD's n-air and his dash attack have a similar lingering hitbox that is begging to be baited and countered for a great upset.

The thing with jabbing the Gordo's back is that your timing and aim have to be pretty solid, since your hitbox for the jab is fast and small while the Gordo is bigger. Too late and you'll eat the gordo as your deflect it, too early and it works like normal. The aim is important because of the physics in the game. The gordo is a larger ball shaped object being deflected by a smaller ball shaped object. Anyone who has tried to punch a Volleyball, or only got the tip of their fists to hit a volleyball when returning a serve will have experienced how unpredictable the arch of the ball will be when that happens. It's the same for Ike. Jabbing a Gordo should more be used as an act of desperation, or simple deflection than trying to turn them back at the big D. And for those who are reading the thread but haven't fought a DeDeDe yet, don't counter his Up-B's downward attack. It has a second hitbox that launches after the first one that will disrupt your counter before it connects. It's better to roll out of the way beyond the stars that shoot out and then rush in for a grab-combo.

Rob is fairly difficult, though most of his stuff has a large wind-up that is easy to bait for a counter. I've learned to never challenge his aerial game when he's above or below you, as you've got nothing that can out range his attacks plus an air-dodge is impossible to use directly against his u-air. (His down air the timing must be perfect since the hitbox lingers) The windup for his f-air and b-air can be baited for a counter, though like all counters you shouldn't abuse them since you go predictable. His Gyro spin is usually the easiest to Counter, since the windup is huge and most ROB players have yet to find a way to make it surprising enough to fight with. I find making him scared to use his gyro is the best way to keep it out of the match. His laser is the hardest part, since at full charge the only thing you can really do is shield it or jump over. If it's not full charged, you can actually duck under it though. I've used that a few times to slip in a d-tilt when they expected to send me flying. I don't remember if the hitbox for a full charged laser has some disjoint to it, because if it does you may be able to duck it at point blank.

 

[Trunks159]

I dont really see ddds aerials get punished very easily, since they all have ubsurdly small landimg lag.

 

[Arrei]

With the exception of Nair, Dedede's aerials have pretty significant landing lag - not the most, but certainly enough to punish when he's as large and bulbous a target as he is. A smart Dedede is mainly going to use aerials from heights where they'll autocancel or fully finish the animation, is the thing - but when shorthopping the only option that fits the bill is Bair, which is slow to come out and doesn't reach as far as Ike's aerials.

And of course, Nair turns his whole body into a hitbox, but going against those types of moves is where Ike's sword really shines. Not to mention Dededes will frequently cover their Nair landings with an attack, so as long as you keep your spacing you should be able to react to his attempts to dash grab, Ftilt, or Dtilt towards you.

 

[killergoat72]

I would appreciate any and all advice regarding the Zelda match-up, it's giving me a lot of trouble, but I know there must be a way to overcome her.

 

[Mario766]

What part of it is hard for you specifically? Din's Fire is slow enough to get around and is punishable is used at mid-low range. Nayru's Love is just plain annoying unless you space properly.

Ike has the advantage in the match-up though, I feel. Zelda is decent at edgeguarding us, as Din's Fire can intercept our linear Quick Draw recovery, and Phantom can just hit you away when using Aether.

 

[killergoat72]

The teleport gives me trouble, additionally I can't seem to find a consistent way to get close to Zelda without being hit. Zelda can simply camp until we make the first move and then counter-attack. Lastly, why exactly is it considered a good match-up for Ike?

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

And for those who are reading the thread but haven't fought a DeDeDe yet, don't counter his Up-B's downward attack. It has a second hitbox that launches after the first one that will disrupt your counter before it connects. It's better to roll out of the way beyond the stars that shoot out and then rush in for a grab-combo.

You can counter his up b actually. I have been playing with friends of mine and I always managed to counter DDD´s up b bfore he landed on the ground.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

The teleport gives me trouble, additionally I can't seem to find a consistent way to get close to Zelda without being hit. Zelda can simply camp until we make the first move and then counter-attack. Lastly, why exactly is it considered a good match-up for Ike?

You can go for a QD if Zelda tries to use hit you with side b. If she uses the Phantom, you can kill it qith one ftilt I think (Phantom can tank 13% before it goes down. Correct me if I´m wrong). She won´t have the Phantom for the next 6 seconds then.

 

[GhostUrsa]

You can counter his up b actually. I have been playing with friends of mine and I always managed to counter DDD´s up b bfore he landed on the ground.

http://www.********/images2/austin-powers/i-see-you-like-to-live-dangerously.jpg

All joking aside I can say it is possible to pull it off, but more cases than not you'll eat a star and get disrupted. You'd have to intercept the strike quite a bit before it hits the ground, which is hard to do due to the armor in the move and it's speed. (A good DeDeDe will make sure to not give you a long distance to think about what you want to do when he uses it.) I've faced dozens of DeDeDe opponents in for glory and have maybe successfully countered a handful. It's too risky with the lingering hitboxes near the ground. Plus, with his size you can just walk out of the way and then dash in for a grab-combo. Most of the time, the counter will only put him back into the air and not KO unless his % is very high.

As for Zelda, all her specials have a good wind-up which makes them easy to intercept or dodge. You have to make sure you use your spacing to your advantage, as getting too close will have you caught in her teleport blast or susceptible to comboing. When playing the spacing game, you really only have to worry about her f-air (It's ideal hit range is about the same as yours) and her U-smash since challenging attacks from the air when they are directly below you isn't Ike's strong suite. You've got the speed, all-around power and range to take her down. Except that f-air, man that kick is humbling. When I suspect her to try it on me int he air, I usually invade her hurtbox to minimize damage or go for a n-air since it's speed may beat out the kick.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

http://www.********/images2/austin-powers/i-see-you-like-to-live-dangerously.jpg

All joking aside I can say it is possible to pull it off, but more cases than not you'll eat a star and get disrupted. You'd have to intercept the strike quite a bit before it hits the ground, which is hard to do due to the armor in the move and it's speed. (A good DeDeDe will make sure to not give you a long distance to think about what you want to do when he uses it.) I've faced dozens of DeDeDe opponents in for glory and have maybe successfully countered a handful. It's too risky with the lingering hitboxes near the ground. Plus, with his size you can just walk out of the way and then dash in for a grab-combo. Most of the time, the counter will only put him back into the air and not KO unless his % is very high.

Yeah, you gotta be right below DDD to counter his butt :D, getting out and then go for some grab punish or dash is the safer option indeed. DDD shouldn´t use his up b that much anyways except for recovery. I have more trouble with his smash attacks(especially dsmash) which seem to have way less ending lagg than one might think. But the DDD matchup is easy nothing compared to freakin' captain falcon. D:

 

[GhostUrsa]

4 out of 5 times, I usually just counter Triple D's F-smash since it has to be one of the slowest Smashes I've ever seen. Unless the lag is bad, it usually works too. (Though you don't want to do it too much since he can delay the swing.) Captain's rushdown is pretty fast. It is part of what I've had trouble with when fighting him as well. I find it's one of these fights where going pure defense is the best strategy. From what I've seen, Capt's game is a grab-combo focused one. You'll want to do what you can to keep him from constantly rushing in, and force him to do something brash. A healthy jab or n-air works wonders to keep him out of your hurtbox, and his specials and smashes have just enough warmup to use a retreating f-air (assuming that your quick enough/baiting them out).

That and there is nothing more satisfying than putting a good counter in a Falcon Punch or DeDeDe f-smash. I've killed at 30% when they've tried that, and you can practically see the fear in them for the rest of the match.

I'd say they are the same difficulty, but for polar opposite reasons.

 

[killergoat72]

I'm having more trouble on offense against zelda than defense. None of his safe moves seem good enough, and Zelda is very good at punishing Ike.

 

[GhostUrsa]

I'm having more trouble on offense against zelda than defense. None of his safe moves seem good enough, and Zelda is very good at punishing Ike.

I'd recommend getting a recording of one of your fights to the Video Critique Thread so we can see where you are having trouble. Probably the best way for us to help you specifically against Zelda than shouting out generic recommendations.

Now on to the generic recommendations, if attacking a Zelda who is airborne you'll find a lot of her aerials are linear in their hitbox arc. Your f-air can easily get her if you come at her from a diagonal, since the arc of Ragnell's swing is huge. d-tilt on the ground outspaces her ground attacks, and I find she's easy to juggle with u-tilts since she's fairly heavy for her weight class. If I remember right, our grabs are faster, but her's are more lethal. (Not sure about range though)

 

[Mario766]

You can counter his up b actually. I have been playing with friends of mine and I always managed to counter DDD´s up b bfore he landed on the ground.

Eruption beats DDD Up-B too.

Just hit it before he hits you. It'll chew through him.

 

[Trunks159]

Holy moly. I uh..have a confession to make...I..just couldn't... beat this Bowser...
I thought I was good but...it was so strange. The matches were close, but the only way id score hits was to be 100% correct in my spacing and decision making. Edge guarding him wasn't easy tbh. That fire breath was annoying, as was his grounded up b. Also, guarding against his moves isnt too smart usually. He breaks shields easily. Dtilt just doesnt work.

Tips?!

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Playing at Olympus right now. I lost to LoCO's ROB. Any tips?

ROB can autocancel, hits Nair with a HUGE hitbox in the air, combo beam and spinner, and is extremely hard to punish. Plus his grab range is fierce and kills at 130%.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

ROB has a crappy grab range. His arms can hit a character and still not grab.

As as far as I know ROB doesn't autocancel: a few moves have very low landing lag if used correctly but I don't think its a complete autocancel. Nair has a large hitbox yes, Ike's Fair is larger than Nair's disjoint. Play patiently against the projectiles.

 

[Trunks159]

Yeah, I think we're done with the Diddy discussion. Can we move on to ROB or something?