Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Phaazoid]

i am back!
i will stick with my quoting style because i like it better, but i will improve it.

originally quoted by : Wiseguy
"I'm wait for you to finish breakfast and complete your thoughts before I respond to what you've already posted."
thank you for your patience.


originally quoted by : Wiseguy
"True, using Melee's engine is a great time saver. So hopefully we'll see even more original movesets AND clones when Brawl is released."
only clones if they are less popular characters who wouldn't have been added unless theyb were clones.

originally quoted by : Wiseguy
"Sheik is the same person as the Zelda in Oracarina of Time, which is a different individual entirely from the Zelda in Twilight Princess. Having TP Zelda transform into Sheik makes about as much sense as having princess Peach transform into Sheik (i.e: none)."

who says we are getting tp zelda? just because tp link is included, everyone thinks that all of the new LOZ characters are going to be tp syle, yet they also include ww link, who happens to be NOT tp style. and who says they can't redo sheik to make it look awesome?
its too early so i can't think of much else to say now... HEY I HAVE OVER 700 POSTS...and i just noticed... man its early

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Why do people object so much to having the same character twice on the roster screen? It's not like Smash has to make sense, as long as there is at least some variation in moveset and style I honestly don't see the problem.

And it's not like TP Link and WW Link are the same person anyway, so it makes more sense than what we had in melee.

As for Zelda, it's pretty certain that seeing as Link has adopted his TP style, the other members of the triforce Zelda and Ganondorf will also assume their TP look. There is no point in sticking to the outdated OoT look when they have a recent and IMO much better look in TP.

 

[Copperpot]

I'm all for clones, actually, so I'm afraid that I side with Wiseguy here. However, if it came down to three clones vs one unique character, I'd go with the unique character unless it was someone that I don't even want to see in the game (Toadsworth, I'm looking at you).

As long as there would be clones, I'd rather them make them all along the realms of the C. Falcon/Gannondorf match-up. They were almost different enough to be considerred unique.

 

[Wiseguy]

i am back!
i will stick with my quoting style because i like it better, but i will improve it.

Fair enough.

thank you for your patience.

No prob.

because ww link is link as well. 1 link is all we need. no alternate versions, unless we have them as costumes. that i am not against.

They have the same name and a similar fashion sense, but they are different individuals entirely.

yes, i want as many characters to choose from as possible, but who says they have to be clones?

Let's say that the Smash team has X months to create new characters. They have a choice: they can include X number of characters, or three times as many clones. Example: 1 original or 3 clones, 3 originals or 9 clones, etc. So yeah. Cloning alows for more characters to be included.

many of the characters you state to be clones are probably going to be included with an original moveset aleady, due to their popularity. less popular characters included last minute, yes, they might be clones. but not dedede, at the top of sakurai's list, or K rool, from the horribly under repped DK series.

That's a fair argument, but personally I would rather they plan ahead of time to include characters like clones like Luigi (who make sense as clones) than wait until the last minute and be forced to include more original characters as clones (Ganondorf as a Falcon clone, for example).

only clones if they are less popular characters who wouldn't have been added unless theyb were clones.

Well, I could definitely see that happening with characters like Dark Samus or Black Knight, but Luigi is proof that popular and important characters can also be included as clones.

who says we are getting tp zelda? just because tp link is included, everyone thinks that all of the new LOZ characters are going to be tp syle, yet they also include ww link, who happens to be NOT tp style. and who says they can't redo sheik to make it look awesome?
its too early so i can't think of much else to say now...

TP Link is the most recent incarnation of Old Link, hense that is the version that was included. TP Zelda and TP Ganondorf are the most recent incarnations of Zelda and Ganondorf so those are the versions that will very, very likely make it into the game. WW Young Link is the most recent incarnation of Young Link so...

Are you suggesting that they Twilight Princess-ify Sheik? Not happening. Smash Bros is a collection of videogame characters - not characters from the imaginations of fans.

Sheik has only appeared in a single Zelda game and is therefore unworthy of a second appearance.

HEY I HAVE OVER 700 POSTS...and i just noticed... man its early

Geez, I'm really lagging behind...

Why do people object so much to having the same character twice on the roster screen? It's not like Smash has to make sense, as long as there is at least some variation in moveset and style I honestly don't see the problem.

And it's not like TP Link and WW Link are the same person anyway, so it makes more sense than what we had in melee.

I ompletely agree Luke. And judging by the fact that that Doc and Mario as well as Link and Young Link appeared in Melee, so does Sakurai.

Edit: Good point, Copperpot. As much as we whine about Ganondorf being a clone, he was actually a pretty unique character.

 

[Phaazoid]

@wiseguy
not twilight princessify shiek, but redo it to make it look newer.
i gotta go now, my parents are making me play outside at 9 in the morning gasp

 

[Wiseguy]

@wiseguy
not twilight princessify shiek, but redo it to make it look newer.
i gotta go now, my parents are making me play outside at 9 in the morning gasp

Yes, but is Sheik important enough to justify that?

Outside... I remember the outside... it's been so long...

 

[Pip]

And it's not like TP Link and WW Link are the same person anyway, so it makes more sense than what we had in melee.

I also agree entirely.
@Samusrules93: Why would you object to a character that is not only very distinctive visually, but could also be given a fairly distinct move-set (easily far more distinct than Luigi's is from Mario's).

Let's say that the Smash team has X months to create new characters. They have a choice: they can include X number of characters, or three times as many clones. Example: 1 original or 3 clones, 3 originals or 9 clones, etc. So yeah. Cloning alows for more characters to be included.

There is an obvious limit to that kind of logic however. You obviously don't want 1 original character and 117 (39*3) clones of that same character. I would say having 30 original character and having one clone of each of them is still going way too far. So how many originals are the devs actually willing to sacrifice to clones? (Besides the fact that I believe the rate of return for sacrificing originals to make clones to be much lower than 3:1, as we discussed earlier.)

Sakurai's statement of no more than 50 characters implies to me that he's by and large doing his best to avoid clones. (Did we confirm whether he actually said that? I forget.) If that's the case then the actual number he's planning is likely a little below that - let's say perhaps 46. Now we also know that Nintendo wants to give him and his team as much time and resources as they could possibly need for this project...

Hmm, I was about to go into a long thought exercise on why there wouldn't be very many clones, but the numbers I was going to use were largely arbitrary, so that would have served no real purpose. I'll just say that I get the feeling that he would have set a higher upper limit on the number of characters if he had been planning on including a sizable number of clones.

 

[Copperpot]

Good points, Pip. You've got to have unique characters before you can have clones, after all.

 

[Phaazoid]

@pip
which is why i think they won't include clones. thats what i was thinking, and yes, we confirmed that sakurai said no more than 50. also, i object ww link because i can't see them putting a cartoon-like character in. i've heard that the ww game was horrible, but i have never played it, so i don't know. i guess ww link could have an entirely different moveset, it is just that we already have a link and i would hate to have a second link get in over a new character.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I'd still like to know where Sakurai mentioned that there wouldn't be more than 50 characters. It would make sense as a limit, but I've not heard any official announcement regarding the roster size anywhere.

 

[Copperpot]

@pip
which is why i think they won't include clones. thats what i was thinking, and yes, we confirmed that sakurai said no more than 50. also, i object ww link because i can't see them putting a cartoon-like character in. i've heard that the ww game was horrible, but i have never played it, so i don't know. i guess ww link could have an entirely different moveset, it is just that we already have a link and i would hate to have a second link get in over a new character.

Kirby is about as close to a cartoon character as you can get.

And about Windwaker, it's actually an amazing game (my favorite Zelda, and I've played them all). The ones that you hear griping and slander the game are the ones with no patience. I takes a bit longer to get from place to place, but I found it refreshing when paired with the change of scenery. Also, I think the story was executed better in Windwaker than the rest.

 

[Wiseguy]

I also agree entirely.
@Samusrules93: Why would you object to a character that is not only very distinctive visually, but could also be given a fairly distinct move-set (easily far more distinct than Luigi's is from Mario's).

I have nothing to add, except: "yeah."

There is an obvious limit to that kind of logic however. You obviously don't want 1 original character and 117 (39*3) clones of that same character. I would say having 30 original character and having one clone of each of them is still going way too far. So how many originals are the devs actually willing to sacrifice to clones? (Besides the fact that I believe the rate of return for sacrificing originals to make clones to be much lower than 3:1, as we discussed earlier.)

Hmm.. well, if that one original character is Olimar... (Joking. That was a joke.)

A balance between originals and clones is key. I think 37 originals and 9 clones is about right. But yeah, the 3:1 ratio is totally hypothetical. It could be greater or less, but it's just my ball park estimate. But it's irrefutable than a decent number of clones is a great way to increase the total number of characters.

Sakurai's statement of no more than 50 characters implies to me that he's by and large doing his best to avoid clones. (Did we confirm whether he actually said that? I forget.) If that's the case then the actual number he's planning is likely a little below that - let's say perhaps 46. Now we also know that Nintendo wants to give him and his team as much time and resources as they could possibly need for this project...

I'm pretty sure that was a rumor. We still have no clure how many characters to expect. 35-50 is probably the best guess.

From my perspective, Sakurai and his team have already been given ample time and resources to create a great Smash Bros sequel. Smash Bros is a very important title for Wii, given the triple A titles coming to PS3 and 360. I suspect Brawl is being released this year regardless, so the appearance of some clones is inevitable.

Hmm, I was about to go into a long thought exercise on why there wouldn't be very many clones, but the numbers I was going to use were largely arbitrary, so that would have served no real purpose. I'll just say that I get the feeling that he would have set a higher upper limit on the number of characters if he had been planning on including a sizable number of clones.

Fair enough. Your guess is really as good as mine, so almost anything could happen at this point.

 

[Pip]

which is why i think they won't include clones. thats what i was thinking

Yep, I was just agreeing with you and trying to further support the argument.

also, i object ww link because i can't see them putting a cartoon-like character in. i've heard that the ww game was horrible, but i have never played it, so i don't know. i guess ww link could have an entirely different moveset, it is just that we already have a link and i would hate to have a second link get in over a new character.

First of all, I think adding a character of a unique visual style adds to the quirky flavor of the game in a positive way. G&W, for example, was a great move on the part of the Melee developers. Secondly, Wind Waker is a game that people seem to either really like or really don't. Personally I thought it was an amazing game, perhaps my favorite Gamecube game after Melee. Most people, in fact, really liked it, and the critics agree.
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/cube/legendofzeldathewindwaker?q=wind waker
That's an average score of 96 out of 80 critic reviews. Thirdly, WW Link has enough mass appeal (and probably appeals to enough of a different crowd than the TP Link does) that adding him over many of the other options for new characters would be a good decision on the part of the developers (in terms of the amount of overall appeal and enjoyment factors that such a decision would add to the game).

 

[Wiseguy]

Sorry for the double post...

Edit: OR NOT! Thanks Pip.

@pip
which is why i think they won't include clones. thats what i was thinking, and yes, we confirmed that sakurai said no more than 50. also, i object ww link because i can't see them putting a cartoon-like character in. i've heard that the ww game was horrible, but i have never played it, so i don't know. i guess ww link could have an entirely different moveset, it is just that we already have a link and i would hate to have a second link get in over a new character.

Yeah, cartoons have no place in a realistic game like Smash Bros...

I'd still like to know where Sakurai mentioned that there wouldn't be more than 50 characters. It would make sense as a limit, but I've not heard any official announcement regarding the roster size anywhere.

As would I. Where do people get this stuff?

Kirby is about as close to a cartoon character as you can get.

And about Windwaker, it's actually an amazing game (my favorite Zelda, and I've played them all). The ones that you hear griping and slander the game are the ones with no patience. I takes a bit longer to get from place to place, but I found it refreshing when paired with the change of scenery. Also, I think the story was executed better in Windwaker than the rest.

Windwaker rocks. Anyone who hates it for it's stunning graphics is undoubtably a communist.

 

[Pip]

Hmm.. well, if that one original character is Olimar... (Joking. That was a joke.)

Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Olimar Edition! A new bestseller!!!

A balance between originals and clones is key. I think 37 originals and 9 clones is about right. But yeah, the 3:1 ratio is totally hypothetical. It could be greater or less, but it's just my ball park estimate. But it's irrefutable than a decent number of clones is a great way to increase the total number of characters.

Yeah, I guess that wouldn't be too bad. I wouldn't want to see the ratio of clones go any higher though.

I suspect Brawl is being released this year regardless, so the appearance of some clones is inevitable.

Yeah, you're probably right. I still expect Sakurai will be doing his best to keep the number to a relative minimum though.

Edit: I am likewise saved from double posting by you, Wiseguy. My hat (if I wore one) would go off to you.

Second edit: Typo.

 

[Frigid_Aztec]

I'm not a big fan of Miis in Brawl, they would ruin the feel of Smash in my opinion.

Everything else I'm ok with (although I do dis-agree with some of the picks). Clones would also be ok, but I would prefer non-clone characters over them.

 

[Wiseguy]

Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Olimar Edition! A new bestseller!!!

BEST. IDEA. EVER! Solid Snake would be a killer Pikmin commander.

Yeah, I guess that wouldn't be too bad. I would want to see the ratio of clones go any higher though.

Yep. Any higher would probably be stretching it.

I'm not a big fan of Miis in Brawl, they would ruin the feel of Smash in my opinion.

Everything else I'm ok with (although I do dis-agree with some of the picks). Clones would also be ok, but I would prefer non-clone characters over them.

What's wrong with Mii? Smash has always welcomed a wide variety of Nintendo characters, from Captain Falcon to Pikachu, so how could Mii ruin the "feel" of the game?

Anyway, welcome to Smashboards. Frigid Aztec is an awesome alias.

 

[Copperpot]

What would be great about the Mii's is if they allowed for your Mii to represent one of the other characters in the game, but instead of having the Mii replace the entire character model, the head is all that would be replaced. Could you imagine having your Mii's head on Pikachu's body (or better yet, Captain Falcon's)? I'd imagine that it would be quite humorous.

Also, I can see what you mean about the game being released sometime this year, but here's something that I don't think I've seen brought up yet. How long do you think Brawl has been in development? Melee has been out for a LONG time, and Brawl could be 4-5 years in the making already. Heck, it's possible that all of the characters have been implemented already, and we don't even know about it yet (they can be pretty sneaky when they want to be).

 

[Pip]

Also, I can see what you mean about the game being released sometime this year, but here's something that I don't think I've seen brought up yet. How long do you think Brawl has been in development? Melee has been out for a LONG time, and Brawl could be 4-5 years in the making already. Heck, it's possible that all of the characters have been implemented already, and we don't even know about it yet (they can be pretty sneaky when they want to be).

That's certainly worth noting, but I doubt that Brawl has been in production for quite so many years as that. It's unlikely they were ever working on another Smash game for the Gamecube and it's also implausible that they would have been able to start work on any game for the Wii 4 years ago (the first time Nintendo even mentioned that the console itself was in the works was just over 3 years ago).

 

[Wiseguy]

What would be great about the Mii's is if they allowed for your Mii to represent one of the other characters in the game, but instead of having the Mii replace the entire character model, the head is all that would be replaced. Could you imagine having your Mii's head on Pikachu's body (or better yet, Captain Falcon's)? I'd imagine that it would be quite humorous.

Sorry friend, but I can't say that idea appeals to me. Miis are Nintendo's mascot for the new, casual market so I see them as worthy of their own spot on the roster.

Also, I can see what you mean about the game being released sometime this year, but here's something that I don't think I've seen brought up yet. How long do you think Brawl has been in development? Melee has been out for a LONG time, and Brawl could be 4-5 years in the making already. Heck, it's possible that all of the characters have been implemented already, and we don't even know about it yet (they can be pretty sneaky when they want to be).

Well, I believe that Sakurai said in his blog before the Dojo update that development was in the planning phases when it was announced at E3 2005, but development didn't really start until he took over several months afterward. At any rate, they were definitely deep in development by the time the first trailer was shown last year at E3 2006. So, by this November the game will have had almost three years (with the full resources of Nintendo behind them) to complete a deep, highly polished 2-D fighting game with online play and (maybe) around 40 characters. Seems pretty plausible to me.

 

[Phaazoid]

meh, i'd rather have 6 clones and forty original than 9 clones. really, they had too many in the last game. mii's would be awesome, but keep them the way they are. sorry copperpot, but i can't see that happening.
as for the idea of ww link, i no longer have an argument other than i can't see it happening. i think we can let that argument die.

also, i think brawl has been in devolpment for a year and a half, and any non-clone characters have already been at least started on. really, with six months left, they probably have done at least 3/4's of the game. with the suprise update of samus without any screenshots first, they could pull a lot on us. i'll bet they have already finished other characters, like luigi and ganondorf, both completly remodled and already playable, with just some finishing touches needed. with all of the already announced veteran fighters posted, they could pull a lot of surprises on us.

 

[Chief Mendez]

WALL OF TEXT (now w/pix!)

Also, I thought the whole Mars and Marth thing was because of his Japanese name being Marusu or whatever and that it could go either way depending on the translator's preference or something. Kinda like Aeris and Aerith.

That's probably it. Thing is, I watched the show after I'd been introduced to 'Marth' in Melee, so it was just a bit strange.

Can't say I've seen much of the Japanese version, but I found it hard to take some of the more dramatic scenes when someones pointing a cork gun at someones head.

Hey, that's One Piece for ya'. Best Jump manga since DBZ, I say.

I don't know which is more disturbing. The fact that I knew that, or the fact that I took the time to point it out.

Hey. Don't be ashamed. It's perfectly natural. Everyone goes through something like this when they get to be your age. Don't fear change; embrace the Tingle.

Eveyone list their top 5 most underappreciated games. You can list one's we've discussed already, but it would be nice to hear about some new overlooked gems. For those who want to go the extra mile, also list the top underappreciated you haven'y played, but would like to.

My Top 5 Underappreciated games:

1) Elite beat Agents- You knew it was coming...

2) I-Ninja- My favorite platformer! I can't understand why everyone doesn't love it...

3) Baten Kaitos: EW&TLLO- Easily one of the most inventive RPGs around.

4) Shadow of the Collosus- Some of the best boss battles in any game to date.

5) Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction- How come noone ever talks about this one? It's the senseless violence in it's purest form. What's not to love?

Games I want to play:

1) Okami

2) Rocket Slime

3) Sin & Punishment

4) Gunstar Heroes

5) Elebits

Okay, I'll start by talking about your list, then move onto mine.

(first 5)
1. EBA - http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2011959

2. I-Ninja - Meh. Was okay. Don't know what you see in this one.

3. Baten Kaitos - WHAT DO YOU USE THE DIVORCE PAPERS FOR!?

4. SotC - Yay. Better than TP. Har har.

5. Hulk: Ultimate Destruction - Besides a lame subtitle, the game was brilliant. Even after my fingers began to cramp (whose idea was it to assign "run" to the FULLY DEPRESSED R trigger?), I couldn't stop gabbing random pedestrians, running up a 100-story skyscraper, setting my human cargo down (complete with a pat on the head), then watching them run in fear, straight off the edge and down to their deaths.

(second 5)
1. Okami - Yay. Better than TP. Har har.

2. Rocket Slime - The game's really, really simple, but in a good way. Also, some of the enemy tanks' names are priceless. "Chrono Twigger" anyone?

3. Sin & Punishment - Put this on the VC, Nintendo. F-ZERO X and Paper Mario won't last forever, you know.

4. Gunstar Heroes - ...It's on the VC. It's awesome. It's only 800 Wii Points.

5. Elebits - Man the voice acting sucked in that game. Everything else about it was pretty awesome though...until you got stuck between a couch and a car, and the game won't let you move them because your gun isn't strong enough yet. Basically, it just needed a tad bit more polish.

Now then.

Top 5 Underrated/Underappreciated Games I've Played:

1. Cubivore (GCN) - America got this (an awesomely quirky "Darwin-sim" about a polygonal animal's quest to survive in the wild) instead of my #1 pick for games I haven't played.

2. Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis (GBA) - FF Tactics is way overrated. The Ogre games is where it's at, and it doesn't get much better than the GBA incarnation.

3. Stretch Panic (PS2) - The premise of the game is to grab and pull things with your magic scarf. Also, it's a TREASURE game. Also, you'll never hear of this game, ever again.

4. Jet Set Radio Future (XBOX) - The only game to ever make graffiti'ing fun. It also has the sickest sense of style in any vidoe game ever, rivaled maybe only by the upcoming It's A Wonderful World.

5. Sigma Star Saga (GBA) - Half RPG, half sidescrolling shooter, all awesome. The game looked amazing, had tons of stuff to customize, the story was surpisingly well-told, and it was actually a challenge to beat, unlike most handheld RPGs.

Top 5 Underrated/Underappreciated Games I HAVEN'T Played, But Would Like To Someday:

1. Doshin the Giant (GCN) - Essentially the last GCN game I need to complete my collection (well, the collection of all the games I want to own). Europe got this instead of Cubivore, but try as I might, I can't find a copy for sale anywhere.

In the game, you play as Doshin, a god who comes to an island to help (or hinder) it's civilization. The game's a port of one of the few N64DD games that wasn't an expansion pak, and is basically Black & White, Nintendo-style.

2. Electroplankton (DS) - Not really a game, but more of a"sound museum". Each of the different 'plankton creates different sounds in different ways, and through smart use of all the different kinds, some truly cool musical pieces can be created and saved for later persual.

...Unfortunately the game was never released commercially, selling online and at the Nintendo World Store in NYC for a short time. It's since gone out of production, and again, I can't find it anywhere.

3. Panzer Dragoon Saga (SAT) - Only, like 5,000 copies were produced, given the failure of the Saturn platform. It's essentialy PD (it's like StarFox, only with dragons), only with an RPG mixed in with the shooting stages.

All reports herald it as a true masterpiece, so it's a shame so few copies of it were made.

4. The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay (XBOX) - Not only does the game look beautiful, but it's one of the few FPSs to get hand-hand combat right. It doesn't hurt that I'm a big fan of the Riddick series (well, half of it), and that the game scored really, really well across the board.

5. Mario Artist (N64DD) - The only reason I'd ever consider spending thousands of dollars on eBay to get a 64DD. Basically Mario Paint (SNES) 2.0. It let you create artwork out of polygons and textures, animate them, then set said animation to music you created. The game also was internet compatible, letting users update their creations to Nintendo's...online...service. Yeah, Ninty had online years before Microsoft.

Well, that was fun.

...i've heard that the ww game was horrible...

Whoever you heard that from needs to be shot.

I'd still like to know where Sakurai mentioned that there wouldn't be more than 50 characters. It would make sense as a limit, but I've not heard any official announcement regarding the roster size anywhere.

He said it at E3 '06, if I'm not mistaken. Then again, I could be confused. If you really, must know, try asking somewhere else, or just check SamuraiPanda's thread.

And about Windwaker, it's actually an amazing game (my favorite Zelda, and I've played them all). The ones that you hear griping and slander the game are the ones with no patience. I takes a bit longer to get from place to place, but I found it refreshing when paired with the change of scenery. Also, I think the story was executed better in Windwaker than the rest.

Heck yeah, Copperpot--comin' through with the save!

WW is indeed the better of the two "GCN" Zeldas. I honestly don't think Aonuma's heart was really into TP. He's said on several occasions that he prefers the WW Link, and that the only reasons TP exists is because he was pressured into making a game to appeal to Western audiences.

I'm not a big fan of Miis in Brawl, they would ruin the feel of Smash in my opinion.

What's wrong with Mii? Smash has always welcomed a wide variety of Nintendo characters, from Captain Falcon to Pikachu, so how could Mii ruin the "feel" of the game?

I don't really think Miis are Ninty characters. They're more like...uh, how do I say this...they're like your characters, that you create. They're much more personal than Mario or Link.

Also, you know you can make Miis that look like all sorts of sexual organs, right? How's that going to pan out? I just think it'd sort of mar the "regality' (strange word choice, I know) of Smash.

And besides, what games have Miis starred in? Wii Sports? I don't think that constitutes a spot in Brawl. If it did, Dr. Kawashima deserves one well above Miis.

Also, I can see what you mean about the game being released sometime this year, but here's something that I don't think I've seen brought up yet. How long do you think Brawl has been in development? Melee has been out for a LONG time, and Brawl could be 4-5 years in the making already. Heck, it's possible that all of the characters have been implemented already, and we don't even know about it yet (they can be pretty sneaky when they want to be).

Production started in October of '05, according to the old Dojo. So they've had about 2 years of working time. About the same (a few more months, actually) as Melee, if I'm remebering correctly. But then, Brawl has a larger team, and assuredlymore resources.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

He said it at E3 '06, if I'm not mistaken. Then again, I could be confused. If you really, must know, try asking somewhere else, or just check SamuraiPanda's thread.

I have checked SP's thread and I found zilch regarding this 50 character limit. The first I ever heard of it was in the Nintendrone article, but that seems to have been proven false now.

Like I said, it seems a reasonable limit, I just don't recall Sakurai himself ever saying it.

 

[Drascin]

Okay, my hatred of my ISP has now officially reached the point where a thousand suns going nova wouldn't even compare. I am without internet for about two weeks. God****it all. Anyway, I'll try to answer a few things I seem to remember were asked to me a few days ago, when I still didn't need to come all the way to the faculty just to answer ¬¬.

Mendez: Sephi? He's not that hard. I actually had more troble beating Xaldin in proud than Sephi. For the keyblade, I limited myself to my trusty Ultima. MP Haste is invaluable when a well-timed Shield can save your ***, and it's pretty strong to boot. You don't really need to get your combo to 1, Sephi gives you time to get one full combo every time he gives you an opening anyway, and when you give him a final hit he usually teleports anyway.

Also:

Whoever you heard that from needs to be shot.

Yeah. Samusrules, if you want my advice here, take that person to a side, and shoot him. In the face. With a hammer. With luck, his braincells will rearrange in something resembling taste, instead of whatever lump he has in his skull currently.

Wiseguy: You asked how much would a cameo by Sora help on making KH nuts such as myself buy a Wii, right? Well, truth is, by itself, not really that much. Any KH nut who already has a Wii is will feel motivated to grab Brawl alright, but probably not buy a console just on that.

Buuut (you knew there had to be a but) that plus some announcement of some good game by Squenix in the Wii would be enough for most of them to think Square and Ninty are in very good relations, which means more games, which is a good enough reason to buy the console for any of us. So, while it wuld not be a decisive factor, it could be the little final tap needed, so to speak ^^. Anyway, I myself don't really care about Sora in Brawl. He follows the tendency of Square protagonists of being somewhat ******** (Tidus, Cloud, Sora, I am told that Vaan is pretty much the same (haven't played FFXII yet), etc, etc). Now if you said some member of the Organization, such as, say, Axel or Xaldin, that would get me interested. But don't mind me, I'm jaded .

Oh, and the people here are right. Sin and Punishment was absolutely awesome. Thank Nayru for emulators, or I might have never played it. Get it and play it. Now.

As for your challenge.... I don't really remember enough to make a list, but here is a lil' game that stuck in my memory:

-Mischief Makers, N64: A humorous and quirky 2d platformer, where you control Marina, a waitress robot who tries to rescue his maker from a band of kidnapping monkey-things who seem to have the face of the Scream guy (I did say it was strange, did I not?). Jump and shake your way through wickedly fun levels, talk with the rather... odd locals, and fight some cool bosses, all with a poor robot who wasn't even designed to fight. This game caused my first gaming marathon, to be honest. I beat it in two days... but that was because those days I got up at 8 AM, went to bed at 11 PM, and did absolutely nothing but play and eat in the middle. Yes, it was that fun.

C'mon Ninty, release it for the VC! I'd buy it! (BTW, now that I'm talking about the VC, all of you copyright experts around here answer me this, please. Can Nintendo publish the Rare N64 games in the VC no problem, or do they have to ask Microsoft for it? Because lately I find myself seriously missing Perfect Dark, and being able to play it again in my Wi would be oh so awesome)

 

[Arteen]

This is arguable, but not out of the question. Welcome to my thread, by the way.

Thanks! I hope for some fun discussion.

TP Link is the most recent incarnation of Old Link, hense that is the version that was included. TP Zelda and TP Ganondorf are the most recent incarnations of Zelda and Ganondorf so those are the versions that will very, very likely make it into the game. WW Young Link is the most recent incarnation of Young Link so...

Part of the reason Link is now TP-styled is of course because that's his latest style, but a major part of it is that this incarnation is more detailed than the previous incarnations and the Wii is a more modern and powerful system. If TP had never come out, the latest adult Link would still be OoT-styled. Such a look would seem lacking compared to the æsthetic direction Brawl is going. I don't think the simple OoT-style would hold up compared to the other characters, such as the new details for Mario, Pit, Fox, etc. The SSBB team would probably take a stab or two at making Link more detailed even if there was no TP.

Look at Mario. In no other game (except of course Melee) is Mario given such detail. That's certainly not what his latest look is like. Same with Pit and Fox. For Fox, some of his style is based on Command, but team didn't hesitate to add even more detail and give him his own unique look that isn't just a straight copy from his latest game.

Are you suggesting that they Twilight Princess-ify Sheik? Not happening. Smash Bros is a collection of videogame characters - not characters from the imaginations of fans.

Sheik has only appeared in a single Zelda game and is therefore unworthy of a second appearance.

Well, if Sheik does make it in, the SSBB will undoubtedly make her more detailed. Zelda will be given more detail regardless of what style they base her on. If they still base her off OoT or some combination of styles that includes OoT, I don't see any continuity being an issue. If they base her off only TP, then that would be an issue, but I don't think such a trivial argument is basis enough to remove a fantastic gameplay element from Brawl. Besides, it's SSB. The game isn't that serious.

As for whether she is important enough to return, I don't see why not. She's a character from an older game, but so what? Brawl shouldn't just focus on the newest and latest games, and she's a fine representative of one of the greatest games of all time. She's an established, popular, and certainly unique character in Melee. She wouldn't be too difficult to re-adapt for Brawl, regardless of how you may think she is inherently and irreversibly broken. I think this is a great opportunity for the SSBB team to refine the Zelda/Sheik combo and make them more interdependent. I think the team can still squeeze Sheik in without sacrificing any significant characters.

I fell out of my chair laughing at that. Toad is more worthy than any other (Mario) character out there (with BJ at a very close second.) Don't believe me? Go play some past Mario games... Toad has more significance than you might think.

Examples? All the Toads did in SMB1 was tell you that your princess was in another castle. He was a playable character in SMB2, but that wasn't a very significant game. I can't remember him in SMB3 or SMW1 or 2. In SM64, the Toads just hid around in the corners of the castle, and some gave you a free star. I can't remember him as much other than some form of messenger in other games (Wario's Woods and the Kart, Party, Sports games notwithstanding).

You, sir, have just earned my wrath!

1) If Shiek, a rather unimportant character to the series as a whole, can get in from one game...Midna can too.
2) Yea, you're right. Even though at least 90% of Twilight Princess' story revolved around Midna, she jsut isn't important enough for her own slot. [/sarcasm]
3) An easily replaced move.
4) He may not have his own slot, but he IS a completely different character.
5) Wrong. Mario is established to the series. Link is established to the series. Jigglypuff is established to the series. Unless he appears in Brawl, Shiek is established to Melee and only Melee.
6) Because he's such a cheap/easy character to learn to be good with. Very few people play as Shiek because they actually like him as a character.
7) Invalid argument. The Happy Mask Salesman could have a unique moveset, does that make him worthy too?/QUOTE]
Okay, you make some good points.
1&2) I've reconsidered my position and think Midna will be able to make it in. Still, I think Sheik would make it in after any other character that would be added after other characters.
3) Yes, of course. But the character switch made Zelda/Sheik a fun, unique character to play.
4) In that she would take about as much time to bring back to Brawl as Zelda, yes.
5) in Melee, which is part of the series. Yes, she's only in Melee, but it does give her a better shot of appearing in Brawl than if she wasn't in a previous game in the series.
6) Fix Zelda/Sheik to make them more interdependent.
7) By that I mean Sheik has already been given a unique moveset. large part of the design process in creating a character designing the moveset, look of the animations, and the damage values & properties of the moves. All of that has been done in Melee, so it would not take long to adapt.

Is that the only reason you can think of? Wow...

1) Staff-based moveset introduced
2) Female fighter
3) Fox's Peach
4) Unique moveset <-- That's yours.
5) Unique appeal

Like I said, she'd have a unique moveset, especially with the staff, but I guess I didn't consider how important it was that she is a female character. I still don't like Krystal, but I grudgingly admit that she has a better shot than I originally considered.

No to Diddy/Dixie tag team in Brawl. If that happened, it would signal the end of the universe.

I'd prefer that too. Diddy is a unique character in his own right, and has a lot of possible moves to work with, so he doesn't need Dixie to make him a worthy addition.

I have to diagree. Baby Bowser was the main villian in the two most high profile Mario games: Super Mario Sunshine and New Super Mario Bros. That makes him siginifant enough in my book, though you may disagree.

Maybe. I haven't had a chance to play NewSMB though. Considering how many Mario games that have been released, I'm not sure if twice is enough to make him significant.

Paper mario could, very well, be given a unique moveset. But given the ease with which a cloned PM could be included that seems a bit more likely in my view. He could have a few unique moves like Luigi, the way I see it.

Well, considering PM's art style, I don't think it would take too much work to stick him in the game. It's not like he has complicated animations or anything. As a Luigified clone, I could see it.

Sheik over Midna?! This means WAR! A quote war, that is.

*waves white flag* You've helped to convince me of the glory that is Midna. I think that she has a good shot at making it in, imp form. As for Sheik, I still defend her, but I think Midna does have a greater shot at making it in than Sheik.

Exactly. No Din's Fire, no Faore's Wind, no Nayru's Love and most of all - NO SHEIK. Those are all from OoT, a game in which TP Zelda did not appear. TP Zelda will be undoubtubly be given a new moveset that reflects the game in which she appears - meaning light magic and his rapier.

I have an idea! Make Zelda OoT-styled and then she can keep her B-moveset and Sheik!

I agree that three reps is a fair number for the SF series, though I think Krystal's chances are far more likely than you give her credit. She (like Wolf) has played a bigger role in the more recent games than Falco and she is fairly popular.

I addressed this a bit before, admitting Krystal does have a better shot. She does play a major role in Adventures, but does she really play a more significant role than any of the other characters in Assault or Command?

Does "Marth-esque character" include Ike? If so, then I agree. I disagree that Marth is currently relivant to the FE franchise. He hasn't appeared in a game in over a decade and none of his games have ever been released outside Japan.

Basically, I expect some FE character to pick up Marth's or Roy's moveset in Brawl, but I don't know enough about the series to know who would deserve to return or who it would fit.

Why get rid of these wonderful, unique characters? Becuase of the many other unqiue characters who deserve a chance at appearing in Smash Bros. ICs and G&W are awesome, no doubt, but I think paying tribute to them in Melee was enough.

Similar to my thoughts on Paper Mario, and especially since G&W was in Melee, he wouldn't be too hard to re-adapt for Brawl. He's not that complicated of a character. As for the IC's, I think their double-team gameplay is too neat and fun to sacrifice. I mean, you wouldn't want it transferred to Diddy and Dixie, would you?

As for your your predictions, I only have a few issues that I haven't somehow addressed in my list. You have six third-party characters, and I just don't see that happening. Compared to the other third-party characters, Geno is the most insignificant (even though he's a cult favorite, he's utterly unworthy as a third-party representative). After that, Sora is out for reasons I'll address later. Castlevania is certainly a series deserving of representation, but I think Sonic and Megaman have better shots, and I don't think SSBB will have more than three third-party representatives.

As for Sora, he's appeared on a single GBA game that wasn't even that significant to his own series. It's certainly a fun series (not just "ten year old girls" enjoy it), but it's only tangentially related to Nintendo. He really just has no chance whatsoever of making it in, and I'm sure others have told you this already.

In addition, you use Sora as a reason to not include Isaac. Let's say Sora does make it in and Isaac doesn't based on your reasoning. Felix (from Golden Sun as well) is equally significant to the Golden Sun series, he plays the same role as Isaac, and he isn't blonde. Regardless, Sora won't make it in so I think either Isaac or Felix has a great shot at making it in Brawl.

 

[Wiseguy]

meh, i'd rather have 6 clones and forty original than 9
clones. really, they had too many in the last game. mii's would be awesome, but keep
them the way they are. sorry copperpot, but i can't see that happening.
as for the idea of ww link, i no longer have an argument other than i can't see it
happening. i think we can let that argument die.

also, i think brawl has been in devolpment for a year and a half, and any non-clone
characters have already been at least started on. really, with six months left, they
probably have done at least 3/4's of the game. with the suprise update of samus
without any screenshots first, they could pull a lot on us. i'll bet they have already
finished other characters, like luigi and ganondorf, both completly remodled and already
playable, with just some finishing touches needed. with all of the already announced
veteran fighters posted, they could pull a lot of surprises on us.

If there's anything I've come to expect, it's the unexpected. Surprises are most
definitely iminent.

Hey. Don't be ashamed. It's perfectly natural. Everyone goes through something like this
when they get to be your age. Don't fear change; embrace the Tingle.

Nooooooooooooooo... Not the Tingle! Anything but the Tingle!

Okay, I'll start by talking about your list, then move onto mine.

(first 5)
1. EBA - http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2011959

2. I-Ninja - Meh. Was okay. Don't know what you see in this one.

3. Baten Kaitos - WHAT DO YOU USE THE DIVORCE PAPERS FOR!?

4. SotC - Yay. Better than TP. Har har.

5. Hulk: Ultimate Destruction - Besides a lame subtitle, the game was brilliant.
Even after my fingers began to cramp (whose idea was it to assign "run" to the FULLY
DEPRESSED R trigger?), I couldn't stop gabbing random pedestrians, running up a
100-story skyscraper, setting my human cargo down (complete with a pat on the
head), then watching them run in fear, straight off the edge and down to their
deaths.

1) Keep your lawyers out of this, Mendez. Don't make me call Matlock in here.

Matlock says: "EBA owns your FACE!"

2) I dunno, it struck a chord with me for some reason. I suspect it was insane
difficulty and inpressive gameplay variety that impressed me most.

3) It's one of the darkest, most terrible secret mysteries of the universe - known only
to the most dedicated of Baten Kaitos fans. If I told you, I would have to kill you.

4) HA HA HA HA HA!! Good one.

5) I love that psrt as well. But did you know that if you bring the poor saps to the top
of the building and set them down just over the edge, they will stand there in mid air,
make a run more it for a few feet, and them fall to their doom Looney Toons style.
Priceless.

(second 5)
1. Okami - Yay. Better than TP. Har har.

2. Rocket Slime - The game's really, really simple, but in a good way. Also, some
of the enemy tanks' names are priceless. "Chrono Twigger" anyone?

3. Sin & Punishment - Put this on the VC, Nintendo. F-ZERO X and Paper Mario
won't last forever, you know.

4. Gunstar Heroes - ...It's on the VC. It's awesome. It's only 800 Wii Points.


5. Elebits - Man the voice acting sucked in that game. Everything else about it
was pretty awesome though...until you got stuck between a couch and a car, and the game
won't let you move them because your gun isn't strong enough yet. Basically, it just
needed a tad bit more polish.

1) HA HA HA HA HA! Stop it! It's too much...

2) Cool. Does it remind you at all of previous Dragon Quest games, stylistically, story
wise, gameplay wise, etc.?

3) Paper Mario. Now THAT will be an awesome download. Even better, I believe the last
issue of Nintendo power said it was coming soon...

But yeah. Hearing you folks go on about S&P has peaked my curiousity.

4) It's at the top of my VC list at the moment. Next Wii Points card I get, I'm all over
this one.

5) I've heard both good and bad about this game, but it looks nothing but interesting.

Now then.

Top 5 Underrated/Underappreciated Games I've Played:

1. Cubivore (GCN) - America got this (an awesomely quirky "Darwin-sim" about a
polygonal animal's quest to survive in the wild) instead of my #1 pick for games I
haven't played.

2. Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis (GBA) - FF Tactics is way overrated. The
Ogre games is where it's at, and it doesn't get much better than the GBA incarnation.

3. Stretch Panic (PS2) - The premise of the game is to grab and pull things with
your magic scarf. Also, it's a TREASURE game. Also, you'll never hear of this game,
ever again.

4. Jet Set Radio Future (XBOX) - The only game to ever make graffiti'ing fun. It
also has the sickest sense of style in any vidoe game ever, rivaled maybe only by the
upcoming It's A Wonderful World.

5. Sigma Star Saga (GBA) - Half RPG, half sidescrolling shooter, all awesome. The game
looked amazing, had tons of stuff to customize, the story was surpisingly well-told,
and it was actually a challenge to beat, unlike most handheld RPGs.

Fascinating read. Those sound like some real gems.

Ever since I read Nintendo Power's positive review of Sigma Star Saga, I've been
intrigued. Lately, the $10 copy at my local Zellers has been mocking me...

Top 5 Underrated/Underappreciated Games I HAVEN'T Played, But Would Like To
Someday:

1. Doshin the Giant (GCN) - Essentially the last GCN game I need to complete my
collection (well, the collection of all the games I want to own). Europe got this
instead of Cubivore, but try as I might, I can't find a copy for sale anywhere.

In the game, you play as Doshin, a god who comes to an island to help (or hinder) it's
civilization. The game's a port of one of the few N64DD games that wasn't an expansion
pak, and is basically Black & White, Nintendo-style.

2. Electroplankton (DS) - Not really a game, but more of a"sound museum". Each of
the different 'plankton creates different sounds in different ways, and through smart
use of all the different kinds, some truly cool musical pieces can be created and saved
for later persual.

...Unfortunately the game was never released commercially, selling online and at the
Nintendo World Store in NYC for a short time. It's since gone out of production, and
again, I can't find it anywhere.

3. Panzer Dragoon Saga (SAT) - Only, like 5,000 copies were produced, given the
failure of the Saturn platform. It's essentialy PD (it's like StarFox, only with
dragons), only with an RPG mixed in with the shooting stages.

All reports herald it as a true masterpiece, so it's a shame so few copies of it were
made.

4. The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay (XBOX) - Not only does the
game look beautiful, but it's one of the few FPSs to get hand-hand combat right. It
doesn't hurt that I'm a big fan of the Riddick series (well, half of it), and that the
game scored really, really well across the board.

5. Mario Artist (N64DD) - The only reason I'd ever consider spending thousands of
dollars on eBay to get a 64DD. Basically Mario Paint (SNES) 2.0. It let you create
artwork out of polygons and textures, animate them, then set said animation to music
you created. The game also was internet compatible, letting users update their
creations to Nintendo's...online...service. Yeah, Ninty had online years before
Microsoft.

Well, that was fun.

Interesting choices. I've heard good things about Panzer Dragoon and Riddick, though I've never played them personally.

Mario Artist sounds like a great idea for a new Wii channel.

Heck yeah, Copperpot--comin' through with the save!

WW is indeed the better of the two "GCN" Zeldas. I honestly don't think Aonuma's heart
was really into TP. He's said on several occasions that he prefers the WW Link, and
that the only reasons TP exists is because he was pressured into making a game to
appeal to Western audiences.

Twilight Princess has just about everything that made Wind Waker great: memorable characters, fun side quests, a massive world to explore, memorable boss battles, brilliantly designed dungeons, fun items, great visuals and a stiring musical score. The major difference: there more of all these things in Twilight Princess - since it's three times as large as Wind Waker . This means that there is simply more to love. Aonuma and team brought their A-game when they created this modern masterpeice and I, like many Zelda fans, consider it to be the greatest entry in the series to date.

I don't really think Miis are Ninty characters. They're more like...uh, how do I say
this...they're like your characters, that you create. They're much more personal
than Mario or Link.

The player edits their appearance from a menu of facial features created by Nintendo, so I still consider them to be Nintendo characters. And having a personal connection to the character is a definite plus.

Also, you know you can make Miis that look like all sorts of sexual organs, right? How's
that going to pan out? I just think it'd sort of mar the "regality' (strange word
choice, I know) of Smash.

I don't really care, to be frank. I intend to spend most of my time playing with my friends over Wi-Fi and at my weekly Smash gatherings, so I care not what a few perverts do with their free time. I suspect the vast majority of gamers will use Miis to show off their creativity, which would make Mii a worthy addition.

And besides, what games have Miis starred in? Wii Sports? I don't think that constitutes
a spot in Brawl. If it did, Dr. Kawashima deserves one well above Miis.

You and your love for body-less videogame characters.

Besides, Kawahima deosn't star in the most recent Brain Age - Miis do.

Production started in October of '05, according to the old Dojo. So they've had about 2
years of working time. About the same (a few more months, actually) as Melee, if I'm
remebering correctly. But then, Brawl has a larger team, and assuredlymore
resources.

Sounds promising, esspecially since they were given the programing codes from Melee as a starting point.

I have checked SP's thread and I found zilch regarding this
50 character limit. The first I ever heard of it was in the Nintendrone article, but
that seems to have been proven false now.

Like I said, it seems a reasonable limit, I just don't recall Sakurai himself ever
saying it.

Yeah, I think it's just a rumor. But it pretty much goes without saying that 50+ characters is pretty unlikely.

Yeah. Samusrules, if you want my advice here, take that person to a side, and shoot him.
In the face. With a hammer. With luck, his braincells will rearrange in something
resembling taste, instead of whatever lump he has in his skull currently.

Shoot him in the face with a HAMMER?!

That, I'd like to see.

Wiseguy: You asked how much would a cameo by Sora help on making KH nuts such as myself
buy a Wii, right? Well, truth is, by itself, not really that much. Any KH nut who
already has a Wii is will feel motivated to grab Brawl alright, but probably not
buy a console just on that.

Buuut (you knew there had to be a but) that plus some announcement of some good game by
Squenix in the Wii would be enough for most of them to think Square and Ninty are in
very good relations, which means more games, which is a good enough reason to
buy the console for any of us. So, while it wuld not be a decisive factor, it could be
the little final tap needed, so to speak ^^. Anyway, I myself don't really care about
Sora in Brawl. He follows the tendency of Square protagonists of being somewhat
******** (Tidus, Cloud, Sora, I am told that Vaan is pretty much the same (haven't
played FFXII yet), etc, etc). Now if you said some member of the Organization, such
as, say, Axel or Xaldin, that would get me interested. But don't mind me, I'm jaded
.

Thanks for the input...

You know, Square has announced a pretty promising title for Wii - Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles. I posted this already, but here's the trailer for those who missed it.

http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=68028

As for your challenge.... I don't really remember enough to make a list, but here is a
lil' game that stuck in my memory:

-Mischief Makers, N64: A humorous and quirky 2d platformer, where you control Marina, a
waitress robot who tries to rescue his maker from a band of kidnapping monkey-things who
seem to have the face of the Scream guy (I did say it was strange, did I not?). Jump and
shake your way through wickedly fun levels, talk with the rather... odd locals, and
fight some cool bosses, all with a poor robot who wasn't even designed to fight. This
game caused my first gaming marathon, to be honest. I beat it in two days... but that
was because those days I got up at 8 AM, went to bed at 11 PM, and did absolutely
nothing but play and eat in the middle. Yes, it was that fun.

C'mon Ninty, release it for the VC! I'd buy it! (BTW, now that I'm talking about the VC,
all of you copyright experts around here answer me this, please. Can Nintendo publish
the Rare N64 games in the VC no problem, or do they have to ask Microsoft for it?
Because lately I find myself seriously missing Perfect Dark, and being able to play it
again in my Wi would be oh so awesome)

That game sounds like the kind of brilliant title that the VC was MADE for. Let's hope we see it eventually.

As for Perfect Dark, Mendez and I are in disagreement on this matter. Rare owns the Perfect Dark licence, but Perfect Dark N64 is still a Nintendo published product. I imagine it is caught in some kind of legal limbo, where neither side can do anything with the game without the other's consent. My guess: a compromise will be reached and it will appear on both VC and Xbox arcade. At least that's what I hope...

Edit: ACK! I posted before I got to Arteen! Hold on a sec...

Part of the reason Link is now TP-styled is of course because that's his latest style, but a major part of it is that this incarnation is more detailed than the previous incarnations and the Wii is a more modern and powerful system. If TP had never come out, the latest adult Link would still be OoT-styled. Such a look would seem lacking compared to the æsthetic direction Brawl is going. I don't think the simple OoT-style would hold up compared to the other characters, such as the new details for Mario, Pit, Fox, etc. The SSBB team would probably take a stab or two at making Link more detailed even if there was no TP.

Look at Mario. In no other game (except of course Melee) is Mario given such detail. That's certainly not what his latest look is like. Same with Pit and Fox. For Fox, some of his style is based on Command, but team didn't hesitate to add even more detail and give him his own unique look that isn't just a straight copy from his latest game.

But Twilight Princess DID come out and as a result, we have the far superior TP Link. Why would they treat Zelda and Ganondorf any differently?

Just as the Smash team went with the more recent incarnation of Link, so also will they include the most recent incarnation of Zelda. That means the more realistic, detailed looking TP Zelda – who doesn’t transform into Sheik.

Well, if Sheik does make it in, the SSBB will undoubtedly make her more detailed. Zelda will be given more detail regardless of what style they base her on. If they still base her off OoT or some combination of styles that includes OoT, I don't see any continuity being an issue. If they base her off only TP, then that would be an issue, but I don't think such a trivial argument is basis enough to remove a fantastic gameplay element from Brawl. Besides, it's SSB. The game isn't that serious.

Seriously, why would they include OoT Zelda over TP Zelda? Going with the most recent incarnations of each character is how Zelda reps have been done in past games, and it is the logical and fair method of proceeding in the future.

We no longer need Sheik as a “fantastic gameplay element” since we now have Zero Suit Samus as a character transformation.

As for whether she is important enough to return, I don't see why not. She's a character from an older game, but so what? Brawl shouldn't just focus on the newest and latest games, and she's a fine representative of one of the greatest games of all time. She's an established, popular, and certainly unique character in Melee. She wouldn't be too difficult to re-adapt for Brawl, regardless of how you may think she is inherently and irreversibly broken. I think this is a great opportunity for the SSBB team to refine the Zelda/Sheik combo and make them more interdependent. I think the team can still squeeze Sheik in without sacrificing any significant characters.

Sheik is established, but so is Pichu. It doesn’t mean that the character is worthy of returning.

Sheik isn’t popular at all – Sheik’s obscenely cheap moveset is the reason so many people main the character. If Pichu were as high tier, he would be as popular as Sheik is.

Sheik isn’t unique either, now that we have the extremely similar Zamus.

If the Smash team were to include a character to represent the older games in the series, what makes Sheik more worthy than Skull Kid or Aginham or Link’s Uncle? As a character in a single Zelda game, he/she/it/potato is among the most insignificant to the series as a whole.

Like I said, she'd have a unique moveset, especially with the staff, but I guess I didn't consider how important it was that she is a female character. I still don't like Krystal, but I grudgingly admit that she has a better shot than I originally considered.

By changing your opinion after listening to a different tpoint of view, you have demonstrated yourself to be a reasonable and level headed individual. You have my respect.

I'd prefer that too. Diddy is a unique character in his own right, and has a lot of possible moves to work with, so he doesn't need Dixie to make him a worthy addition.

I couldn’t agree more.

Maybe. I haven't had a chance to play NewSMB though. Considering how many Mario games that have been released, I'm not sure if twice is enough to make him significant.

It’s more than just the number of releases, it’s the popularity of those titles in the here and now that matters. NSMB sold a ridiculous number of copies on the DS last year and Sunshine was among the most popular GCN games. Coasting on wave of popularity, Bowser Jr. has a very good chance of being included.

Well, considering PM's art style, I don't think it would take too much work to stick him in the game. It's not like he has complicated animations or anything. As a Luigified clone, I could see it.

I’m glad you agree. As a Mario/Doc Mario main, I’m secretly holding out hope that we get a new Mario clone to replace Doc, and who better than PM?

*waves white flag* You've helped to convince me of the glory that is Midna. I think that she has a good shot at making it in, imp form. As for Sheik, I still defend her, but I think Midna does have a greater shot at making it in than Sheik.

I have an idea! Make Zelda OoT-styled and then she can keep her B-moveset and Sheik!

I’m glad you came around on the Midna thing, but I still can’t see the logic of updating Link’s appearance and not Zelda’s.

I addressed this a bit before, admitting Krystal does have a better shot. She does play a major role in Adventures, but does she really play a more significant role than any of the other characters in Assault or Command?

In command, she get’s a more face time than Falco, Peppy or Slippy – though Wolf is a bit more important to the story.

I haven’t played Command yet, so I can’t speak to that.

Basically, I expect some FE character to pick up Marth's or Roy's moveset in Brawl, but I don't know enough about the series to know who would deserve to return or who it would fit.

Fair enough, though I think you should definitely play one of the Fire Emblem games. They are a perfect blend of strategy and RPG that any gamer can appreciate.

Similar to my thoughts on Paper Mario, and especially since G&W was in Melee, he wouldn't be too hard to re-adapt for Brawl. He's not that complicated of a character. As for the IC's, I think their double-team gameplay is too neat and fun to sacrifice. I mean, you wouldn't want it transferred to Diddy and Dixie, would you?

G&W might be easier to program than I realize, but if that is the case, why not include another visually simple character like Mii?

As for ICs, I think including Olimar (with his army of Nana-like minions) and/or Midna/Wolf Link tag team would fit their void quite nicely.

But yeah. Diddy/Dixie must be avoided at all costs.

As for your your predictions, I only have a few issues that I haven't somehow addressed in my list. You have six third-party characters, and I just don't see that happening. Compared to the other third-party characters, Geno is the most insignificant (even though he's a cult favorite, he's utterly unworthy as a third-party representative). After that, Sora is out for reasons I'll address later. Castlevania is certainly a series deserving of representation, but I think Sonic and Megaman have better shots, and I don't think SSBB will have more than three third-party representatives.

Yeah, six is an optimistic prediction to say the least. I'm reivalutating that aspect of my roster at the moment...

I suspect that Simon Belmont to actually more likely than Sonic considering that we know that Knomi is willing to include their characters.

As for Sora, he's appeared on a single GBA game that wasn't even that significant to his own series. It's certainly a fun series (not just "ten year old girls" enjoy it), but it's only tangentially related to Nintendo. He really just has no chance whatsoever of making it in, and I'm sure others have told you this already.

The way I see it, appearing on a Nintendo platform is necessary if a character is to be considered, but beyond that their importance as a videogame character can be judged on non-Nintendo releases as well. For example, if we judged Snake soley on his Nintendo releases we are left with a character who starred in a niche NES stealth game and a Gamecube port. But as a representative of the entire Metal Gear series (Nintendo and non-Nintendo releases) he is more than worthy to stand next to legend like Mario and Link.

Thus, taking into account the popularity of his PS2 games, Sora is worthy to appear in Brawl.

In addition, you use Sora as a reason to not include Isaac. Let's say Sora does make it in and Isaac doesn't based on your reasoning. Felix (from Golden Sun as well) is equally significant to the Golden Sun series, he plays the same role as Isaac, and he isn't blonde. Regardless, Sora won't make it in so I think either Isaac or Felix has a great shot at making it in Brawl.

You make a good point. I'll do some research on him and consider putting Felix on either my roster or my runnerup list.

 

[Johnknight1]

HEHE, guess who's back! Anyways Wiseguy I can't help but embrassing that I win=Samus and ZSS are seperate characters=yae! (goes off and Wavedashes) Thank god that the "under certain condition" stuff was all about Metroid: Zero Mission=that could have turned out bad=worse mindgames than Zelda/Shiek!

Anyways **** I didn't win my bet!!! ****** Sakurai had to have the Wiimote, Wiimote w/t Numchuck feature work. O well...it was only $20, and at least the GCN controller works with the Classic Controller. At least I didn't LOSE the bet, it was a tie. O what I would have done with $20=nothing, but gloting is always good! At least we have that awsome song from the Ridley boss battles=Ridley confirmed soon=hopefully...

We saw Miis of Miamoto and Reggie at E3, but we didn't know they were customizable at that point.

I didn't even know that!

I personally think it would be awesome seeing other Smasher's Miis in action over Wi-fi. If they suck, all the more fun will be had when kicking the snot out the them.

Plus, we can exchange friend codes and settle our Anakin vs. Jack Bauer rivalry once and for all!

Or Young Darth Vader (as I call him=Vader before that AWSOME black) vs. Osama! Ken plays Young Vader while I play Osama=I get owned! That would be awsome, and let the beating begin! It would be what it would look like, unless God posses me or something! Only question is how to make a Anaking Mii=confusing. Maybe I'll just use my Rocky Balboa Mii instead, and maybe I'll make a Rambo one as well. Or maybe I'll use my Governor Tarkin one, lol!

DK Jungle Beat is another innovative DK game. DK Jet for the Wii also looks pretty good. Again, I have nothing against Starfox, Pokemon or DKC - I did give them three, four and three characters, respectively. I just think the Mario and Zelda series deserve special recognition which is why I assigned them more reps than any other series.

Jungle Beaet was good, but Guitar Hero pwns all! Honestly I usually hate music games, but that game makes you want to break stuff, because you feel that cool! *calms down* Hopefully Guitar Hero III comes out on the Wii. Anyways, I'm probably going to check out Jet, maybe rent it, but I want a DK Country or 64 like Wii game. A Diddy Kong Racing Wii game (along with Mario Kart Wii) would be pretty nice.

Anyways, popularity>innovation, that is what I think it comes down to. Donkey Kong has a cult following (I am in it, we sacrifice a monkey to the great Diddy every blue moon ), and Pokemon will always have a cult following. Not to mnetion us "true" Pokemon fans release every Pikachu we find or Pichu we find, unless we plan on evolving them into the ever awsome Raichu=pwner of n00bs!

8 players would be great, but the Dojo update specifically said four. Maybe in SSB4...

Where did it say that=??? Hope you're wrong (as should everyone). Maybe Sakurai was refering to playing on one Wii vs. online. I wouldn't be surprised if it went either way (4 max, or 6-8 max). As a side note (and heavily unlikely one) imagine 16 person play=imagine pros. Lots of fighting=need to replay youtube vids over and over and over=insane.

It's not going to happen, but that would be pretty crazy to watch/play, and getting teamed never hurt so bad. But even if I had 14 clones+me on the same team, I'd still lose to Ken=dang it!

One stage or two, either way that stage look really, really cool. Can't wait to try it out.

I'm almost willing to bet two. One is inside (in a dungeon like area), one is outside ontop of a castle (on fire). Maybe along with the Yoshi music and Ridley music it is refering to Marth is very likely=???

Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely be consulting the Satge Discussion thread in the fututre for all my Stage related needs.

Stages needs to be discussed more. Having Wiseguy is a definite plus. M/aybe we'll get a stage discussion thread by Brawl's release. That way we don't have to go to every character disscussion section to learn which character sucks/is awsome at X stage, to exploit those advantages/weaknesses.

I could sort of see that working, seeing as how Fox's moveset is so popular. Still, I'd much rather see a clone from a different series (ie: Black Knight, Poo, Goroh, etc.) instead. Still, I can see what your saying and it's definitely possible.

Goroh is basically guarenteed, and Poo wouldn't work as a Ness clone. Ness has a bat, yo-yo, and a slingshot, Poo has a sword. Paula would work better (considering Ness stole all her moves, her pans work exactly like Ness' bat, plus she could easily have a yo-yo and can wield slingshots), but overall Lucas would be the best choice.

He's basically a neo-Ness, but I bet he'd be more like Ness in Earth Bound in terms of moves in SSB than Ness is, considering how all of his PSI moves are stolen from Paula.

Did you see the new trailer for FF: Crystal Chronicles on Wii?

http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=68028

Looks pretty great.

It looks amazing, but have you seen FF XIII=not graphics, it's real life! This is coming from someone who thinks Brawl should have SNES graphics!

Roy over the Black Knight? FOR SHAME!

He's my 4th best (behind only obviously FOX, Link, Falco), so what do you expect. Plus he's the best rep IMO for the GBA FE games, Marth is the best for the classics, and Ike is the best for the newer (but still awsome) FE games. Not to mention Roy plays a main roll, and all the Black Knight has been is a villian in 2 games. Again, I think all we'll get is Fire Lords, and I don't think Miciah is one of them.

IMO these are the FE characters with the best chances (in order): Ike, Marth, Roy, Hector (Roy and Hector are tied IMO), Sigurd, Maciah, etc.

Very true. This Fall is shaping up to be a truly great one for gamers of all stripes, and Nintendo fans especially. I can hardly believe that Prime 3 is coming THIS AUGUST! Even that game alone would make the Wii a must buy.

I'm still WD around about the release date news for MP3, and that came out like a month ago! Hopefully I don't slip!

Fair enough, but I think we disagree somewhat on which ones are classic" enough is warrant returning.

I never thought about it that way. You could onto something by balancing the # of retros with the newer characters. We'll have to see...

But would you really prefer to see G&w and ICs return over new additions like Mac, Balloon Fighter or Mach Rider? There are a ton of forgotten characters who deserve a shot at Brawl just as much as those two...

I bet G&W is as easy to make as clones. Honestly, he's 2D=not hard to make, or at least I think. I could be wrong, but he's fairly/decently popular, takes little time to make=works. IC has a big fanbase, so I think they could stay, but again nothing is for certain. I think IC and G&W's roll in video gaming history (one starting Nintendo in gaming, the other being the backup for Super Mario Bros. on the NES, and virtually creating the side-scrolling genre similar to SMB, but the exact opposite) could save them.

Also, I think you might want to put Luigified clones on the first page under certain characters (WW Link, Dedede, etc.), so you don't get blasted as much, or as badly. I'm betting WW Link will be a Luigified kinda clone, and Dedede...well he's Dede. I suppose he'll be somewhat like Kirby, but he'll also have a good twist (myabe a few original B moves), plus some neat original A attacks, but his A moveset could be a combination of IC+Kirby=Luigified. Maybe then you won't get hung!

Anyways, I generally think originality like IC and G&W can't be matched. Overall that could saves them, along with what I wrote 2 paragraphs up. Unless Mach Rider rides his bike the whole time (maybe as a special attack), he isn't going to be as original. Balloon Fight however could be extrmely original, behind only who I think are the 2 most original characters (G&W and IC). However, his roll in gaming isn't as big, and that could virtually make him not make it. However, I won't be surprised either way with Balloon Fight, as should everybody.

Not overboard in terms of the total # of characters, but overboard in the sense that it would be over representing the Starfox series, in my view. There are a ton of awesome characters who deserve to be in Brawl just as much as Falco, but are STILL waiting for a shot at the big time. Falco has had his chance, so its time for give that chance to some other character.

But I doubt it takes much time. Just reprogram him, update the graphics on him, give him a new gun, give him a few new moves, and you're done. With Wolf give him Falco or Fox's old blaster, give him luigified/falcofied (new vocab for the heck of it) b moveset, make his weight diffrent, and you're done. Plus give him more/less damage in moves as Falco and Fox, and make his attacks have a few diffrent effects. Everybody wins!

Evertime I think I've seen the last of Pokeon, the series is reborn once again like an undead zombie and the craze begins a new. With the games already selling zillions of copies, and the DS dominating like nobdy's bussiness I expect Nintendo to achieve total world domination by year's end - and I'll be the only one who notices because I haven't been brainwahed by that evil yellow rat and his brotherin.

I've noticed it already...scary. Seriously, I caught 5 of my friends going crazy because one of them lost a Pokemon battle in the old Gold/Silver version games (in which they made bets on), which is odd because I didn't even know they had those games to begin with. Add the fact they generally hated Pokemon=proof it is the most addicting RPG of all time! This is not debateable, it is fact!

O, and expect in the 6th gen (maybe the 5th) of Pokemon we'll get a baby/evolved version of Plusle and Minun. Or maybe even a trio in case they come out with 3 on 3's. Then we'll have anywhere from 7-10 annoying yellow rats (one being the awsome Raichu). Overall the Pika family (snap snap) and Pokemon series will keep reviving itself like zombies in Resident Evil 4 or Dead Rising=they won't stop coming=they won't die...FOREVER!!!

Force Unleashed does look great. I hope the Wii gets some Star Wars love eventually, since the Wii controller is perfectly suited for lightsaber duels.

Jedi Knight 4 for the Wii....need...now=if we get it I'll have a nerdgasm! Still love how I love Star Wars while I generaly don't like Sci-Fi, at ALL! Well with a dozen or so exceptions at least.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll do just that.

Bet you liked it, past the first few episodes at least.

MGS3 Big Boss costume: a fair addition since the character appeared in the old NES games and all they would really have to do is add an eyepatch.

MGS4 Old Snake: Not too sure, since that form is exclusive to the PS3.

Pink Snake?!?!: *glares at Johnknight1* No. Never speak of this again.

I love MGS 3. I played it this weekend at my cousin's house, and I'm like 7/10th's through the game. I think I need to buy it...today=consumed my soul more than MGS2=a lot. God I love that game, why hadn't I played it so in depth before=curse you RE4! (or maybe not, since that game is awsome too)

How is Pink Snake not awsome, Solid Snake could show off his femine side. I think the old outfit from MGS4 is likely actually, and hasn't every MG game since MGS been a PSx, PS2, or PS3 exclusive (or Twin Snakes=GCN exclusive)=??? Also, maybe having some of that makeup-like facepaint from MGS3 would be pretty funny.

Gotta say I love the zombie facepaint, a lot=awsome! Honestly, what stealth game star doesn't wear that (Sam Fisher does, under all that tech, unless he's being a n00b). The MGS3 Big Boss outfit is awsome=should be in (strangles Sakurai until he puts it in). Hopefully holding Sakurai hostage will bend him to my will (I'll add the Pink outfit just for Wiseguy!)

How about some of the world famous Canadian Prime minister’s? We could have the ultimate showdown between:

Founding Father John A. Macdonald - known for creating the first international railway and for spending most of his term in office completely drunk!

Mackenzie King – served longer than any leader in North America. He is also famous for seeking political advice from his dead dog’s ghost (I kid thee not).

Pierre Trudeau - who introduced the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and more impressively had an entire airport named after him!

Our current Prime Minister Steven Harper - Nothing to remarkable about him, other than the fact that he has heat vision (okay, not really).

Pretty exciting stuff, eh? I’ve decided to stop taking about Smash Bros on this thread and only talk about Canadian Politics. You guys are cool with that, right?

So how about a beer ol' Macdonald=??? Maybe on a train=??? O, and Wiseguy tell Harper to stop looking at me from behind, I got a burning feeling on my neck=reallly hurts and burns! Also ask King for me how's Sparky doing, and tell him to tell Sparky to say I said hi. And to think I thought Richard Nixon was a bad president...

Well...I could use a history lesson Why not talk about old/dead politicans (from anywhere), find a way to make a Mii of them, and prepare them for battle in Brawl. Unleash the Bush army to consume the world=ultimate way to stop terrorism. *evil laugh*

Honestly, we could Bush vs. Harper vs. Blair vs. the President of Iran. Now that would be epic! *duel of fates begins to play in the background, while they they all pull out their lightsabers, (the President of Iran has a duo=Darth Mauls) and the battle begins*

I would be happy to see Prime 3 have Hunters-caliber online multiplayer, but if that were the case I would expect it to have been delayed even longer. The fact that we’re getting an August release makes me think that the game will consist entirely of a lengthy, superbly polished single player experience. And since the Wii will be getting both Brawl and Batteleon Wars online, that’s fine with me.

Metroid Prime 3 has been in development for a while longer than Brawl, so I won't be surprised if we get online somewat like Hunters. Also I heard (from several reliable sources) that drama in MP3 is going to at a much higher level, and maybe we'll hear Samus' voice, since we heard voice from the trailers. Maybe much like the end of the game she takes off her helmet deal, we hear her voice=??? Just a thought.

Anyways, I doubt we'll get multiple players with diffrent abilities (if we do, we'll get Space Pirates, Galatical Federation Troopers, and Dark Samus), and maybe we'll at least get more than 2 or 4 courses. Hopefully as many as Hunters (which is like 22-25), but more realistically around 16.

Nintendo needs a shooter to rival Halo 3, and Corruption is the way to go (with the pun intended!) Battalian Wars 2 helps (never played 1), but overall Nintendo needs to se their biggest hitters (SSB, Mario, tLOZ, Pokemon, Metroid) wisely on the Wii=their main path to victory.

Anyways, hopefully we'll get a Metroid game after Fusion. Fusion was amazing, and the end of that story makes me want more! Seriously, it's the last Metroid on the official timeline (Metroid/Zero Mission, MP, MP Hunters, MP2, MP3, Metroid II, Super Metroid), and what happens next=??? Such a plot twister=if you know what I'm talking about, you probably feel the same way. The ending of Fusion seriously turns the whole series upside down!

Resetti is awesome, but Nook is a more iconic character for the series in my view. Still, if Resetti did make it, you wouldn’t hear me complaining.

“RESSETING IS BAD!!! DON”T DO IT!!!!”

Most non-Animal Crossing fans don't reconize Nook, and most of the SSB fans know him because he is mentioned and talked about, or from that trophy. Same thing, but to a lesser extent with Resetti. Still, Miis are the best rep, maybe we'll have Nook in SSB4.

Watch these. They make the lightsaber duels in the movies look really lame in comparison!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8NE5elL30w4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-is63goeBgc

I've already seen them...a few dozen times. Still, that Yoda vs. Dooku battle was short, but sweet, and I'd definitely have to say that was much better, though lacking length. The Obi-
Wan vs. Dooku was good, but not as good as it could hav been. At least Anaking vs. Dooku was good, and Yoda vs. Dooku was awsome (plus uber pwnage!)

I agree for the most part, though I personally prefer MM over OoT. It was the first Zelda I played and it will forever have a special place in my heart.

Alrite, time for my legthy speech=good story! Now MM/OOT are technically the same game, and MM is virtually the perfect sequal, as well as the best sequal ever. Now, I:m not saying a seqaul being better than the original makes it better (ie: Megaman II, SSBM), but a sequal that has everything the original doesn't have, and the original having everything the sequal doesn't have makes it the best sequal ever.

Same thing with tLOZ+Zelda II, but to a lesser extent. That is why I jump on people who hate on MM (or as you say, I go Snake on them, sneak up from behind, and slit their throats ) OOT had timechaging madeness, MM had mask madness. OOT had a wide world in 2 diffrent views (times), while MM had a smaller bugt more in detailed and detailed map, in 3 days of change. Plus they both virtually had opposite emotion effects in story and cutscenes, but while being exactly the same. They both fit together perfectly!

Plus tLOZ made the soverhead 2D genre, added switching weapons into video gaming, multiple (and seemingly endless) 1st and 2nd quest into the fray, etc. Zelda II is the birth of modern action RPG, first game with actually AI (that can pwn u anyday!), seeminly endless dungeons (along with tLOZ, but that last dungeon is literally insanely long=Miyamoto was bored), and super insane bosses that mad children cry (while being still beatable, but tLOZ had some insane bosses too).

Virtually in 2 games, tLOZ invented/reinvented the side-scrolling and overhead 2D, in ways that even Mario and Luigi couldn't=impressive. Ya, it pwns that friggen much, plus the level ups in Zelda II are pretty awsome, along with the insanely awsome magical spells. You could literally spend hours just looking and going around the overworld map before takling or even discovering the next or even any dungeon. You can't lose either way, with tLOZ/Zelda II, or OOT/MM.

If you want to play a REAL super hero game, try Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction.

http://www.gamespot.com/gamecube/action/theincrediblehulk/index.html

I'll check it out, thought I heard it was good. Superman not for Brawl FTW! His games suck, what can I say (and it is sad the real superman died). Too bad Superman games coudn't pwn like the original Superman, and the same thing, but to a somewhat lesser extent with Batman games.

Seriously, Adam West (along with the new and awsome Batman) need to team up and make good Batman and Superman games (leave out the new Superman=Return focuses too much on "zomg he can fly!")

Other then that, Superman Returns was sorta good I guess, but Batman Begins totally pwned! Best Superhero movie since Spider-man and X-Men. The guy who's playing the Joker in the next Batman doesn't look so good=like Venom. I want jack Nicolas back=never a better role for anything! Ya, off topic on a off topic on a off topic. Wanna get more off topic Wiseguy=???

Agreed. Diddy as a clone is utter lunacy in my view. And I’m seen as the most clone-happy guy on Smashboards.

Let Diddy be original. Disagree, and I'll make you look behind=slit your throat, the MGS3 way=o ya! No one (even Wiseguy) can disagree, just like no one can disagree King Dedede (dedededede) will be in Brawl. If you do (or did), then I've probably already slit your throat=needs to withdraw from MGS3. Too awsome=best thing since Twilight Princess!

Now for my feelings on the update. Kudos to Ferro for convincing (or using a Jedi Mindtrick) on you Wiseguy! Dark Samus could go either way being original or being a Samus clone, so I won't disagree. WW Link will be a clone, but a friggen awsome one (along with my new main). I bet I made Wiseguy put Wolf O'Donell as a Fox clone=success! I guess if King K. Rool made it into Brawl he could be a Bowser clone, but sorta Luigified, plus with some originality=exactly a Luigified clone.

Miciah probably won't be in Brawl. Even if she is the star of the newest FE game, she isn't as big or popular worldwide as Ike, Marth, Roy, Hector, or Sigurd. One or two of them will make it, so she'll have to compete with 3 (possibly even 4) of them for that last spot. I don't think Goroh could be a clone, other than Luigified. Maybe use that sword, maybe not, but that determines if he's a clone or not.

Poo doesn't have anywhere near the same moves as Ness. Ness uses more PSI, and can use bats, yo-yo's, and slingshots as weapons. Poo has a sword, and uses a lot less PSI, so virtually Poo being a Ness clone is hard to imagine. Unless Poo steals most of Ness' moves like Ness did to Paula in SSB, I don't see him happening, especially as a clone. I think I'll take Wiseguy's character challenge in a while. That way he can insult my character predictions back!

@ Chief Mendez
Jet Set Radio Future...well isn't that good of a game (IMO it isn't that good). Jet Set Radio (on the Sega Dreamcast) was somewat good I guess. Still, what about Pikmin 1 or 2, or even F-Zero GX=???=both awsome games!

 

[Pip]

Guys, I just wanted to thank everyone who posts on this thread for making it a shining beacon of reason and civility amongst the darkness that is internet message boards. Particularly you, Wiseguy, for hosting it. You guys (and gals) are great. That is all.

Edited for cross-gender recognition.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Mendez: Sephi? He's not that hard. I actually had more troble beating Xaldin in proud than Sephi. For the keyblade, I limited myself to my trusty Ultima. MP Haste is invaluable when a well-timed Shield can save your ***, and it's pretty strong to boot. You don't really need to get your combo to 1, Sephi gives you time to get one full combo every time he gives you an opening anyway, and when you give him a final hit he usually teleports anyway.

The Decisive Pumpkin does more damage with both Finishing Plus abilities equipped (Explosion, Guard Breaker as the finishers).

I have a friend who says Berserk works really well against him...but I tried that once, and I screwed myself over by not having the MP to heal.

I know what you mean about Xaldin though. But Sephiroth takes longer, and there's more options. Xaldin's basically "Learn or Die".

Mischief Makers, N64: A humorous and quirky 2d platformer, where you control Marina, a waitress robot who tries to rescue his maker from a band of kidnapping monkey-things who seem to have the face of the Scream guy (I did say it was strange, did I not?). Jump and shake your way through wickedly fun levels, talk with the rather... odd locals, and fight some cool bosses, all with a poor robot who wasn't even designed to fight. This game caused my first gaming marathon, to be honest. I beat it in two days... but that was because those days I got up at 8 AM, went to bed at 11 PM, and did absolutely nothing but play and eat in the middle. Yes, it was that fun.

One of the few 64 carts I still own. By the way, the "Scream guys" are called Clancers. You also forgot to point out that the game has the best boss battle ever: a dodgeball match against a cat.

C'mon Ninty, release it for the VC! I'd buy it! (BTW, now that I'm talking about the VC, all of you copyright experts around here answer me this, please. Can Nintendo publish the Rare N64 games in the VC no problem, or do they have to ask Microsoft for it? Because lately I find myself seriously missing Perfect Dark, and being able to play it again in my Wi would be oh so awesome)

Rare owns the properties of Banjo-Kazooie, Perfect Dark, and so on. Ninty published them...but that's not enough; they'd need Rare's consent to use them again. Goldeneye's different, since even though Rare made it, they don't hold ownership of the property.

Maybe. I haven't had a chance to play NewSMB though. Considering how many Mario games that have been released, I'm not sure if twice is enough to make him significant.

NSMB has sold so many copies, that it's only sold less than the original SMB (out of all the 2D Marios). And Sunshine's the latest 3D Mario game. They're both very, very important games, at least as far as Smash is confirmed.

In addition, you use Sora as a reason to not include Isaac. Let's say Sora does make it in and Isaac doesn't based on your reasoning. Felix (from Golden Sun as well) is equally significant to the Golden Sun series, he plays the same role as Isaac, and he isn't blonde. Regardless, Sora won't make it in so I think either Isaac or Felix has a great shot at making it in Brawl.

I'd actually prefer Felix over Isaac. At least he can actually speak.

3) It's one of the darkest, most terrible secret mysteries of the universe - known only to the most dedicated of Baten Kaitos fans. If I told you, I would have to kill you.

Man, I've tried every writing utensil I have: John Hancock's Pen, Grumble Pen, Marking Pencil...nothing freakin' works. I only have three more combos to discover, and I'm SURE the Divorce Papers are used in at least one of them.

2) Cool. Does it remind you at all of previous Dragon Quest games, stylistically, story wise, gameplay wise, etc.?

Not really. The story is as generic and predictable as most of the DQ's, but the game plays much, much differently. For the better, I think.

Mario Artist sounds like a great idea for a new Wii channel.

That's actually not a half-bad idea...

Twilight Princess has just about everything that made Wind Waker great: memorable characters, fun side quests, a massive world to explore, memorable boss battles, brilliantly designed dungeons, fun items, great visuals and a stiring musical score. The major difference: there more of all these things in Twilight Princess - since it's three times as large as Wind Waker . This means that there is simply more to love. Aonuma and team brought their A-game when they created this modern masterpeice and I, like many Zelda fans, consider it to be the greatest entry in the series to date.

Lemme do this in list form...

1. "Memorable characters". The TP cast is fine, but it can't compare to WWs, partly because most of the WW NPCs have a sidequest involved with them. The same can't be said for TP.

2. "Fun side quests". Again, I think TPs are fine, but the only major one I can think of is Malo-mart and the Magic Armor. And where's the trading quest?

3. "Memorable boss battles". The only area I think TP does beat WW. All the bosses were consistently fun, and for the most part (except the first one...we've fought enough giant plants to last a liftime, Nintendo), pretty original.

4. "Brilliantly designed dungeons". TP only wins beacuse it had more, but it's not like they were particularly great for 3D Zelda dungeons. And the Earth Temple from WW is much better than any of the TP levels.

5. "Fun items". The Spinner, Ball & Chain, and Staff of Dominion hardly beat the Grappling Hook, Tingle Tuner, and Deku Leaf. Especially since, as I'm sure you've heard, the Spinner and Staff were hardly used at all.

6. "Great visuals". But when they abandoned the uniqueness of WW, they ended up looking inferior to previous GCN fare. The game lost alot of it's "wow" factor after playing RE4 20 times in a row, and devoting a week last summer to Crystal Chronicles. The game still looked good, but WW clearly wins in this category.

7. "Stirring musical score". You...you're joking, right? 90% of TPs music was compromised of mediocre remixes of Ocarina's music. Two of them were really good (Hyrule Castle and Hyrule Castle Town), and the first time you stepped into the Temple of Time...yeah, that was awesome. But I digress. Point is, WW had a much more original and enjoyable composition.

Besides, Kawashima deosn't star in the most recent Brain Age - Miis do.

You mean Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree? That's different from Brain Age (somehow). Kawashima's the "star" of every Brain Age/Brain Training game so far, and those games are the best selling titles on DS.

You know, Square has announced a pretty promising title for Wii - Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles. I posted this already, but here's the trailer for those who missed it.

Yay. Looks like Skies of Arcadia. Here's a theory: we (Ninty fans) got the CC franchise instead of KH. Thoughts, anyone?

As for Perfect Dark, Mendez and I are in disagreement on this matter. Rare owns the Perfect Dark licence, but Perfect Dark N64 is still a Nintendo published product. I imagine it is caught in some kind of legal limbo, where neither side can do anything with the game without the other's consent. My guess: a compromise will be reached and it will appear on both VC and Xbox arcade. At least that's what I hope...

Yeah, something like that. In "around two weeks", IGN's supposed to say something about that rumored "Halo DS"...so maybe that says something about MS and Ninty cooperating.

Aginham

When I read that, I could've sworn it said "agin' ham", as in a ham you left in the fridge for too long. It's actually "Agahnim", by the way.

I haven’t played Command yet, so I can’t speak to that.

Don't really worry about what happens in Command. There are so many endings, that trying to draw any conclusions out of it is an exercise in futility.

I suspect that Simon Belmont to actually more likely than Sonic considering that we know that Knomi is willing to include their characters.

Hey, if Simon gets in over Sonic, I'd be super-cool-happy with that. I don't know how realistic that claim is...what with all this Olympic Games nonsense, and the whole "onyl one character per company" thing.

Jungle Beaet was good, but Guitar Hero pwns all! Honestly I usually hate music games, but that game makes you want to break stuff, because you feel that cool! *calms down* Hopefully Guitar Hero III comes out on the Wii. Anyways, I'm probably going to check out Jet, maybe rent it, but I want a DK Country or 64 like Wii game. A Diddy Kong Racing Wii game (along with Mario Kart Wii) would be pretty nice.

But Guitar Hero's not a platformer, so it's a bit hard to compare. You're probably thinking of Donkey Konga, the actual rhythm game. And it's been confirmed that Guitar Hero 3 (and I think Rock Band as well) is coming to Wii later this year.

It looks amazing, but have you seen FF XIII=not graphics, it's real life!

XIII loses a whole crapload of points because SHIVA TRANSFORMS INTO A MOTORCYCLE.

Jedi Knight 4 for the Wii....need...now=if we get it I'll have a nerdgasm!

I'd have to join you in that 'gasm. I'm not the biggest SW fan in the world, but the Jedi Knight games are really just that good. Best SW games after Rogue Squadron.

Also, maybe having some of that makeup-like facepaint from MGS3 would be pretty funny.

Kabuki Paint FOR THE WIN!

The MGS3 Big Boss outfit is awsome

"Ah, hell, no! This FOX unit's a nutfest!"

Wiseguy...you'd better know who said that.

@ Chief Mendez
Jet Set Radio Future...well isn't that good of a game (IMO it isn't that good). Jet Set Radio (on the Sega Dreamcast) was somewat good I guess. Still, what about Pikmin 1 or 2, or even F-Zero GX=???=both awsome games!

JGR was the original, and it controlled better (to be fair, I had to use the original XBOX pad for JSRF), but the sequel was much, much better.

I don't think Pikmin or F-ZERO are that "obscure" though. Besides, we've already gone over those games, and isn't the point of these lists to spark discussion?

 

[Inkslinger]

On the topic of Mach Rider....

I'm not certain if Sakurai himself actually stated that Mach Rider was added onto Melee, I don't quite remember as this was announced months after the release of Melee. It was stated that both Mach Rider and Baloon Fighter were to be on Melee but were never done/replaced, due to time constraints (too bad it will be hard to track down old Sakurai interviews in Japanese).

Both of these characters are the only characters in Melee who actually have theme songs on the game, without actually appearing. If i recall correctly Baloon Fighter was never made, but was planned to be on the game. As for Mach Rider he was initially suppose to be the clone of CF (makes sense), but was replaced by Ganondorf because of his superior popularity. So in other words he was replaced rather than never finished (on a side note there's a rumor that Ganondorf was planned to have his sword, which can be seen on the trophy)

 

[Wiseguy]

Good morning, all. I'll update my Runner up list as soon as I get one monsterously long post out of my system...

Edit: Maybe not. I have to leave, so I'll just include two characters in tommorow's update.

HEHE, guess who's back! Anyways Wiseguy I can't help but embrassing that I win=Samus and ZSS are seperate characters=yae! (goes off and Wavedashes) Thank god that the "under certain condition" stuff was all about Metroid: Zero Mission=that could have turned out bad=worse mindgames than Zelda/Shiek!

Kill the fatted calf! Johnknight1 has returned! Welcome back JK1.

I hate to burst your bubble, but to my knowlege Zamus is still a transformation. Zamus' original profile (before the Dojo update) said "This is not a pure character addition, but rather Samus will remove her suit under certain conditions." I expect we'll hear the specifics in a new update this week.

Anyways **** I didn't win my bet!!! ****** Sakurai had to have the Wiimote, Wiimote w/t Numchuck feature work. O well...it was only $20, and at least the GCN controller works with the Classic Controller. At least I didn't LOSE the bet, it was a tie. O what I would have done with $20=nothing, but gloting is always good! At least we have that awsome song from the Ridley boss battles=Ridley confirmed soon=hopefully...

I was both shocked and delighted to see all four controller types used. The wii-mote/nunchuck will be great for casual gamers and unskilled players, the wii-mote solo is a fine alternative for cash-strapped gamers who are short one one or two controllers, and hardcore gamers can rest easy knowing that they can play with either the Classic or GC controllers

As for the Ridley song, I think it was Sakurai's way of saying: "Nintendo has me under a gag order until E3, so I can't reveal any new characters. But check out this rockin' tune! *hint hint, wink wink*

Where did it say that=??? Hope you're wrong (as should everyone). Maybe Sakurai was refering to playing on one Wii vs. online. I wouldn't be surprised if it went either way (4 max, or 6-8 max). As a side note (and heavily unlikely one) imagine 16 person play=imagine pros. Lots of fighting=need to replay youtube vids over and over and over=insane.

It's not going to happen, but that would be pretty crazy to watch/play, and getting teamed never hurt so bad. But even if I had 14 clones+me on the same team, I'd still lose to Ken=dang it!

"What is Super Smash Bros.?
It's a brawling, battling, action-packed video game that features a varied roster of characters for four-player simultaneous melees!"

Out of Sakurai's own mouth. It's a shame, though. 8 player matches would be mindblowingly awesome!

I'm almost willing to bet two. One is inside (in a dungeon like area), one is outside ontop of a castle (on fire). Maybe along with the Yoshi music and Ridley music it is refering to Marth is very likely=???

...or that Ike is very likely. We don't know which FE game the stage(s) are from.

Stages needs to be discussed more. Having Wiseguy is a definite plus. M/aybe we'll get a stage discussion thread by Brawl's release. That way we don't have to go to every character disscussion section to learn which character sucks/is awsome at X stage, to exploit those advantages/weaknesses.

Was my spelling really that bad? Anyway...

You make a good point. One or more stage specific threads would be a great way of discussing which character has an advantage where.

Goroh is basically guarenteed, and Poo wouldn't work as a Ness clone. Ness has a bat, yo-yo, and a slingshot, Poo has a sword. Paula would work better (considering Ness stole all her moves, her pans work exactly like Ness' bat, plus she could easily have a yo-yo and can wield slingshots), but overall Lucas would be the best choice.

He's basically a neo-Ness, but I bet he'd be more like Ness in Earth Bound in terms of moves in SSB than Ness is, considering how all of his PSI moves are stolen from Paula.

To my knowlege, bats and yo-yos are items that can be used by all the Earthbound characters - including Poo. It seems to me that if Ness can steal Paula's psi attacks, so can Poo.

It looks amazing, but have you seen FF XIII=not graphics, it's real life! This is coming from someone who thinks Brawl should have SNES graphics!

FFXIII does have some great visuals, but it's hard to tell how much of it is player-controlled and how much is just cutscenes...

He's my 4th best (behind only obviously FOX, Link, Falco), so what do you expect. Plus he's the best rep IMO for the GBA FE games, Marth is the best for the classics, and Ike is the best for the newer (but still awsome) FE games. Not to mention Roy plays a main roll, and all the Black Knight has been is a villian in 2 games. Again, I think all we'll get is Fire Lords, and I don't think Miciah is one of them.

IMO these are the FE characters with the best chances (in order): Ike, Marth, Roy, Hector (Roy and Hector are tied IMO), Sigurd, Maciah, etc.

Roy stared in one SNES game (Japanese only) and appeared in a short scene at the end of one GBA game. How does he represent the GBA games?

Taking into account that the Black Knight has played an important role in the two most recent Fire Emblems (both of which are/will be internationall released) he is clearly more important to the FE series thatn Roy is.

I bet G&W is as easy to make as clones. Honestly, he's 2D=not hard to make, or at least I think. I could be wrong, but he's fairly/decently popular, takes little time to make=works. IC has a big fanbase, so I think they could stay, but again nothing is for certain. I think IC and G&W's roll in video gaming history (one starting Nintendo in gaming, the other being the backup for Super Mario Bros. on the NES, and virtually creating the side-scrolling genre similar to SMB, but the exact opposite) could save them.

While G&W's character model is simple, his moveset would be just as time consuming to program and balance - the way i see it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Donkey Kong arcade game start Nintendo in gaming?

And, personally, I don't consider the runner up game to SMB to be that important to Nintendo's history.

Also, I think you might want to put Luigified clones on the first page under certain characters (WW Link, Dedede, etc.), so you don't get blasted as much, or as badly. I'm betting WW Link will be a Luigified kinda clone, and Dedede...well he's Dede. I suppose he'll be somewhat like Kirby, but he'll also have a good twist (myabe a few original B moves), plus some neat original A attacks, but his A moveset could be a combination of IC+Kirby=Luigified. Maybe then you won't get hung!

Good point. I'll get on it.

Anyways, I generally think originality like IC and G&W can't be matched. Overall that could saves them, along with what I wrote 2 paragraphs up. Unless Mach Rider rides his bike the whole time (maybe as a special attack), he isn't going to be as original. Balloon Fight however could be extrmely original, behind only who I think are the 2 most original characters (G&W and IC). However, his roll in gaming isn't as big, and that could virtually make him not make it. However, I won't be surprised either way with Balloon Fight, as should everybody.

Okay, but how about ROB? As Nintendo's first mascot, and clearly a unique character doesn't he deserve a spot in Brawl more than ICs or G&W - who have already had their chance?

But I doubt it takes much time. Just reprogram him, update the graphics on him, give him a new gun, give him a few new moves, and you're done. With Wolf give him Falco or Fox's old blaster, give him luigified/falcofied (new vocab for the heck of it) b moveset, make his weight diffrent, and you're done. Plus give him more/less damage in moves as Falco and Fox, and make his attacks have a few diffrent effects. Everybody wins!

It seems to be that changing Falco as radically as you are proposing and re-programing him into the game would be no less time consuming than designing a new Luigied clone from scratch with the Brawl engine specifically in mind. And like I said, there are plenty of contenders who deserve a spot just as much as Falco.

Bet you liked it, past the first few episodes at least.

*Sheepish expression* Well... I kinda, sorta haven't got around to watching them yet. Hey, I've been busy! Don't worry, I'll get on it ASAP.

I love MGS 3. I played it this weekend at my cousin's house, and I'm like 7/10th's through the game. I think I need to buy it...today=consumed my soul more than MGS2=a lot. God I love that game, why hadn't I played it so in depth before=curse you RE4! (or maybe not, since that game is awsome too)

How is Pink Snake not awsome, Solid Snake could show off his femine side. I think the old outfit from MGS4 is likely actually, and hasn't every MG game since MGS been a PSx, PS2, or PS3 exclusive (or Twin Snakes=GCN exclusive)=??? Also, maybe having some of that makeup-like facepaint from MGS3 would be pretty funny.

Gotta say I love the zombie facepaint, a lot=awsome! Honestly, what stealth game star doesn't wear that (Sam Fisher does, under all that tech, unless he's being a n00b). The MGS3 Big Boss outfit is awsome=should be in (strangles Sakurai until he puts it in). Hopefully holding Sakurai hostage will bend him to my will (I'll add the Pink outfit just for Wiseguy!)

MGS3 is up there with Prime 1&2, Pikmin 2 and Twilight Princess as one of my personal favorite adventure games ever. The boss battles are easily the best in any game ever (just barely inching out Shadow of the Collosus) and the story is UNBELIEVABLY awesome. I won't spoil anything for you, but the ending is positively brilliant.

So how about a beer ol' Macdonald=??? Maybe on a train=??? O, and Wiseguy tell Harper to stop looking at me from behind, I got a burning feeling on my neck=reallly hurts and burns! Also ask King for me how's Sparky doing, and tell him to tell Sparky to say I said hi. And to think I thought Richard Nixon was a bad president...

Well...I could use a history lesson Why not talk about old/dead politicans (from anywhere), find a way to make a Mii of them, and prepare them for battle in Brawl. Unleash the Bush army to consume the world=ultimate way to stop terrorism. *evil laugh*

Honestly, we could Bush vs. Harper vs. Blair vs. the President of Iran. Now that would be epic! *duel of fates begins to play in the background, while they they all pull out their lightsabers, (the President of Iran has a duo=Darth Mauls) and the battle begins*

Minor correction: I just noticed that I was a bit off on Macdonald's profile. He made the first TransNATIONAL railway (a railroad stretching from the coast to coast) not the first international railway. This railroad was a significant factor in eventually bringing all the loyal British colonies togther into Confederation, creating the country you know as Canada. Hey, the more you know...

Metroid Prime 3 has been in development for a while longer than Brawl, so I won't be surprised if we get online somewat like Hunters. Also I heard (from several reliable sources) that drama in MP3 is going to at a much higher level, and maybe we'll hear Samus' voice, since we heard voice from the trailers. Maybe much like the end of the game she takes off her helmet deal, we hear her voice=??? Just a thought.

Prime has been in development longer, but if they have been working on a multiplayer mode all this time, why haven't they said so?

Actually, Samus had a voice in Prime 1&2. She would cry out in pain if she was damaged. But yeah, I want to hear Samus speak for once. She's an interesting character, and a including her in a deeper and more involved storyine would be the perfect way to end the Prime triliogy.

Anyways, I doubt we'll get multiple players with diffrent abilities (if we do, we'll get Space Pirates, Galatical Federation Troopers, and Dark Samus), and maybe we'll at least get more than 2 or 4 courses. Hopefully as many as Hunters (which is like 22-25), but more realistically around 16.

Aagin, that would be steller but if they have a multiplayer in the works why haven't we heard about it?

Nintendo needs a shooter to rival Halo 3, and Corruption is the way to go (with the pun intended!) Battalian Wars 2 helps (never played 1), but overall Nintendo needs to se their biggest hitters (SSB, Mario, tLOZ, Pokemon, Metroid) wisely on the Wii=their main path to victory.

Personally, I think with Battaleon Wars 2 and Brawl coming this fall we'll have all the online multiplayer we need. Prime 3 rounds out the Wii's 2007 lineup by bringing an epic, lengthy FPS/Adventure experience. Halo's got NOTHING on Nintendo.

Anyways, hopefully we'll get a Metroid game after Fusion. Fusion was amazing, and the end of that story makes me want more! Seriously, it's the last Metroid on the official timeline (Metroid/Zero Mission, MP, MP Hunters, MP2, MP3, Metroid II, Super Metroid), and what happens next=??? Such a plot twister=if you know what I'm talking about, you probably feel the same way. The ending of Fusion seriously turns the whole series upside down!

I've played all the Prime game (my personal favorite game series) but I have yet to check out the 2-D games (I like my adventure games in glorious 3-D). However, now that I own a DS I'll have to check out Zero Mission and Fussion. I'll also most likely download Super Metroid once it comes to VC...

Most non-Animal Crossing fans don't reconize Nook, and most of the SSB fans know him because he is mentioned and talked about, or from that trophy. Same thing, but to a lesser extent with Resetti. Still, Miis are the best rep, maybe we'll have Nook in SSB4.

Tom Nook is easily the most recagnized Animal Crossing character among people who haven't played an AC game yet, so he is the logical choice to represent the series.

Perhaps when and if Miis appear in AC Wii next year, they can represent the series. In the here and now, Miis have never apeared in an AC game, so they can't represent the series in Brawl.

Alrite, time for my legthy speech=good story! Now MM/OOT are technically the same game, and MM is virtually the perfect sequal, as well as the best sequal ever. Now, I:m not saying a seqaul being better than the original makes it better (ie: Megaman II, SSBM), but a sequal that has everything the original doesn't have, and the original having everything the sequal doesn't have makes it the best sequal ever.

Same thing with tLOZ+Zelda II, but to a lesser extent. That is why I jump on people who hate on MM (or as you say, I go Snake on them, sneak up from behind, and slit their throats ) OOT had timechaging madeness, MM had mask madness. OOT had a wide world in 2 diffrent views (times), while MM had a smaller bugt more in detailed and detailed map, in 3 days of change. Plus they both virtually had opposite emotion effects in story and cutscenes, but while being exactly the same. They both fit together perfectly!

Plus tLOZ made the soverhead 2D genre, added switching weapons into video gaming, multiple (and seemingly endless) 1st and 2nd quest into the fray, etc. Zelda II is the birth of modern action RPG, first game with actually AI (that can pwn u anyday!), seeminly endless dungeons (along with tLOZ, but that last dungeon is literally insanely long=Miyamoto was bored), and super insane bosses that mad children cry (while being still beatable, but tLOZ had some insane bosses too).

Virtually in 2 games, tLOZ invented/reinvented the side-scrolling and overhead 2D, in ways that even Mario and Luigi couldn't=impressive. Ya, it pwns that friggen much, plus the level ups in Zelda II are pretty awsome, along with the insanely awsome magical spells. You could literally spend hours just looking and going around the overworld map before takling or even discovering the next or even any dungeon. You can't lose either way, with tLOZ/Zelda II, or OOT/MM.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Zelda reinvented both 2-D and 3-D gaming, when you think about it.

Hypothetically speaking, what would a Twilight Princess sequel be like?

I'll check it out, thought I heard it was good. Superman not for Brawl FTW! His games suck, what can I say (and it is sad the real superman died). Too bad Superman games coudn't pwn like the original Superman, and the same thing, but to a somewhat lesser extent with Batman games.

Seriously, Adam West (along with the new and awsome Batman) need to team up and make good Batman and Superman games (leave out the new Superman=Return focuses too much on "zomg he can fly!")

Other then that, Superman Returns was sorta good I guess, but Batman Begins totally pwned! Best Superhero movie since Spider-man and X-Men. The guy who's playing the Joker in the next Batman doesn't look so good=like Venom. I want jack Nicolas back=never a better role for anything! Ya, off topic on a off topic on a off topic. Wanna get more off topic Wiseguy=???

Batman Begins was seriously great. That movie single handedly undid the damage of Batman and Robin and *shudders* Batman Forever and brought back Batman's dignity. I have fath that the new Joker in the sequel will turn out to be different that Nicolas' legendary preformance, but just as awesome.

Spiderman and X-men are good too, but the single greatest super hero movie was the Hulk, no question. A complex storyline, incredible writing and acting, camera angles that pay homage to comic book panels and breathtaking action sequences combine to make a true masterpiece. HULK SMASH!!!

Off topic? WHAT TOPIC!?!

Let Diddy be original. Disagree, and I'll make you look behind=slit your throat, the MGS3 way=o ya! No one (even Wiseguy) can disagree, just like no one can disagree King Dedede (dedededede) will be in Brawl. If you do (or did), then I've probably already slit your throat=needs to withdraw from MGS3. Too awsome=best thing since Twilight Princess!

No arguments here. Diddy is as original as they come and MGS3 is pure awesome.

Now for my feelings on the update. Kudos to Ferro for convincing (or using a Jedi Mindtrick) on you Wiseguy! Dark Samus could go either way being original or being a Samus clone, so I won't disagree. WW Link will be a clone, but a friggen awsome one (along with my new main). I bet I made Wiseguy put Wolf O'Donell as a Fox clone=success! I guess if King K. Rool made it into Brawl he could be a Bowser clone, but sorta Luigified, plus with some originality=exactly a Luigified clone.

Ferro's incredible Midna/Wolf moveset is what convinced me that the character had a strong chance of appearing, though I'd still wouldn't mind seeing Twili midna.

Sorry to burst your bubble again, but I always considered Wolf as a clone. I just recently labeled him as such to avoid confusion.

Miciah probably won't be in Brawl. Even if she is the star of the newest FE game, she isn't as big or popular worldwide as Ike, Marth, Roy, Hector, or Sigurd. One or two of them will make it, so she'll have to compete with 3 (possibly even 4) of them for that last spot. I don't think Goroh could be a clone, other than Luigified. Maybe use that sword, maybe not, but that determines if he's a clone or not.

Miciaiah could be included for the same reason Roy was: to increase sales up their game, which is being released around the same time as Smash Bros. Roy is no more important to the FE series than any other lord, and both he and Marth are not as important to the series as Ike because most FE fans can't buy their games without importing.

Goroh could be given a unique moveset, but given the somewhat niche status of the F-zero series I think a Ganondorf-esque cloned moveset is more likely.

Poo doesn't have anywhere near the same moves as Ness. Ness uses more PSI, and can use bats, yo-yo's, and slingshots as weapons. Poo has a sword, and uses a lot less PSI, so virtually Poo being a Ness clone is hard to imagine. Unless Poo steals most of Ness' moves like Ness did to Paula in SSB, I don't see him happening, especially as a clone. I think I'll take Wiseguy's character challenge in a while. That way he can insult my character predictions back!

Stealing Ness' moves is exactly what I had in mind. Given Earthbound's relative lack of importance, I think one original character and one clone is fair.

Guys, I just wanted to thank everyone who posts on this thread for making it a shining beacon of reason and civility amongst the darkness that is internet message boards. Particularly you, Wiseguy, for hosting it. You guys (and gals) are great. That is all.

Edited for cross-gender recognition.

Thanks Pip, that means a lot.

One of the few 64 carts I still own. By the way, the "Scream guys" are called Clancers. You also forgot to point out that the game has the best boss battle ever: a dodgeball match against a cat.

This game just keeps sounding better and better.

Rare owns the properties of Banjo-Kazooie, Perfect Dark, and so on. Ninty published them...but that's not enough; they'd need Rare's consent to use them again. Goldeneye's different, since even though Rare made it, they don't hold ownership of the property.

Yeah, but doesn't Rare also need Nintendo's consent before they can put a Nintendo published game on Xbox arcade?

Not really. The story is as generic and predictable as most of the DQ's, but the game plays much, much differently. For the better, I think.

Okay, so the main story in DQ8 was your standard "save the world from ancient evil" plot, which admittedly falls under the "preictable" category. Still, it has it's own charm.

Anyway, thanks for the recomendation.

That's actually not a half-bad idea...

Thanks. Miatomto is reportedly making a new Mii channel, I think, so maybe its something in the same vein/

Lemme do this in list form...

1. "Memorable characters". The TP cast is fine, but it can't compare to WWs, partly because most of the WW NPCs have a sidequest involved with them. The same can't be said for TP.

I have to disagree. Wind Waker had many memorable characters, but Twilight Princess had just as many. Malo, the Goron elders, the Skull Kid, the crazy bug girl, the mailman, the Yeti's, the bird people, Zant and (most of all) Midna are all very memorable and interesting.

2. "Fun side quests". Again, I think TPs are fine, but the only major one I can think of is Malo-mart and the Magic Armor. And where's the trading quest?

Maybe we define sidequests differently. Do you define things like fishing, canoeing, flying through giant fruit on a giant bird, snowboarding against Yetis, etc. to be sidequests?

3. "Memorable boss battles". The only area I think TP does beat WW. All the bosses were consistently fun, and for the most part (except the first one...we've fought enough giant plants to last a liftime, Nintendo), pretty original.

But have you ever fought against a giant plant with a big, butt slapping monkey as your ally? I thought not.

4. "Brilliantly designed dungeons". TP only wins beacuse it had more, but it's not like they were particularly great for 3D Zelda dungeons. And the Earth Temple from WW is much better than any of the TP levels.

Again, I disagree. Although WW's dungeons are all good (as few of them as here are) TP's dugeons are on a level of excellance never before seem in the series. My favorite, the Goron Mines, is by far the best in the series (stunning fire effects, great music, walking on the ceiling, fun puzzles and the best mini-boss ever) and the Yeti dungeon redefines what a Zelda dungeon can be. In fact, just about all the dungeons were well designed and a complete blast.

5. "Fun items". The Spinner, Ball & Chain, and Staff of Dominion hardly beat the Grappling Hook, Tingle Tuner, and Deku Leaf. Especially since, as I'm sure you've heard, the Spinner and Staff were hardly used at all.

Windwaker's items were fun (especially the Deku leaf) but TP simply has more fun items.

The spinner is most fun item in the series, par none. Not only is the brillinat Gerado dungeon designed around it (there are spinner tracks in one or two other places too) but it is also useful as a weapon. In the pit of trials, my favorite tactic was to leap off the edge, eqip the spinner in mid air and use my momentum to plow though a dozen of enemies before slowing to a stop.

The staff of dominion is also fun, although I wish you used it more. The ball and chain and the bomb arrows are immencely empowering, the dual hookshots are a brilliant addition, the ruby armour and the Zora armour were both useful and cool looking, and who could forget Midna stone that allowed Link to transform into Wolf form at will?

6. "Great visuals". But when they abandoned the uniqueness of WW, they ended up looking inferior to previous GCN fare. The game lost alot of it's "wow" factor after playing RE4 20 times in a row, and devoting a week last summer to Crystal Chronicles. The game still looked good, but WW clearly wins in this category.

Wind Waker is the best looking Zelda, but that doesn't make TP's visuals bad. They are both great looking games - just different.

7. "Stirring musical score". You...you're joking, right? 90% of TPs music was compromised of mediocre remixes of Ocarina's music. Two of them were really good (Hyrule Castle and Hyrule Castle Town), and the first time you stepped into the Temple of Time...yeah, that was awesome. But I digress. Point is, WW had a much more original and enjoyable composition.

You forgot the eery background music in the Twilight Relm and the funkadelic tunes in the Sky dungeon. Sure, much of TP's music pays homage to OoT, but none of it is mediocre. Wind Waker may have more originalo tunes, but more ejoyable? It seems to me that it comes down to personal taste. Both WW and TP have great music, so I'd say they are tied in that regard.

You mean Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree? That's different from Brain Age (somehow). Kawashima's the "star" of every Brain Age/Brain Training game so far, and those games are the best selling titles on DS.

My mistake. However, Miis are quickly eclipsing Kawasaki as Nintendo's casual gamer mascot. Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wario Ware and Big Brain Academy as well as the upcoming Wii Music and Wii Fitness.

Yay. Looks like Skies of Arcadia. Here's a theory: we (Ninty fans) got the CC franchise instead of KH. Thoughts, anyone?

That sounds like a pretty sound theory. Square seems to be really pushing the CC franchise lately (with new Wii and Ds games) so it could be the Nintendo equivilant of KH.

Yeah, something like that. In "around two weeks", IGN's supposed to say something about that rumored "Halo DS"...so maybe that says something about MS and Ninty cooperating.

Perfect Dark DS! PLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASE...

When I read that, I could've sworn it said "agin' ham", as in a ham you left in the fridge for too long. It's actually "Agahnim", by the way.

Actually, I was thinking of the Virtual Boy game, The Legend of Zelda: The Leftovers of No Return. Only the two copies were published: one is in my possession and the other is in a cave on the top of Mount Everest, surrounded by a flaming moat with flame-proof crocodiles. In this this game, the dreaded Agin' Ham (a giant slab of meat with dark mystical powers) kidnaps Zelda and locks her in a giant freezer.

Hey, if Simon gets in over Sonic, I'd be super-cool-happy with that. I don't know how realistic that claim is...what with all this Olympic Games nonsense, and the whole "onyl one character per company" thing.

Since when is there a "one character per company" rule? For all we know, Konami is the only company playing ball.

XIII loses a whole crapload of points because SHIVA TRANSFORMS INTO A MOTORCYCLE.

Err.. how is that a negative Mr. "A BRAWL CHARACTER DRIVING A MOTORCYLCE WOULD TOTALLY WORK"?

"Ah, hell, no! This FOX unit's a nutfest!"

Wiseguy...you'd better know who said that.

Geez, it's been awhile... Sigint?

On the topic of Mach Rider....

I'm not certain if Sakurai himself actually stated that Mach Rider was added onto Melee, I don't quite remember as this was announced months after the release of Melee. It was stated that both Mach Rider and Baloon Fighter were to be on Melee but were never done/replaced, due to time constraints (too bad it will be hard to track down old Sakurai interviews in Japanese).

Both of these characters are the only characters in Melee who actually have theme songs on the game, without actually appearing. If i recall correctly Baloon Fighter was never made, but was planned to be on the game. As for Mach Rider he was initially suppose to be the clone of CF (makes sense), but was replaced by Ganondorf because of his superior popularity. So in other words he was replaced rather than never finished (on a side note there's a rumor that Ganondorf was planned to have his sword, which can be seen on the trophy)

Interesting. In your opinion, Inkslinger, is this positive or a negative sign for Balloon Fighter and Mach Rider? If they were cut from Melee, maybe Sakurai decided they weren't Smash material...

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Roy stared in one SNES game (Japanese only) and appeared in a short scene at the end of one GBA game. How does he represent the GBA games?

Unless my GBA emulator is actually a SNES emulator in disguise, then FE6, Roy's big game, was actually a GBA game. Still Japanese only though, but he has had a major role in a GBA game (and a very tiny cameo in another).

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
I was thinking that too.

Guys, I just wanted to thank everyone who posts on this thread for making it a shining beacon of reason and civility amongst the darkness that is internet message boards. Particularly you, Wiseguy, for hosting it. You guys (and gals) are great. That is all.

Like, totally man. We're like, the Frasier to the rest of www.smashboards.com's Seinfeld.

Geez, it's been awhile... Sigint?

"Is there any way I can take off my pants?"

I wish there were more conversations with Sigint. That guy was way cooler than Nastasha or...whoever was the weapons guy in MGS2.

Err.. how is that a negative Mr. "A BRAWL CHARACTER DRIVING A MOTORCYLCE WOULD TOTALLY WORK"?

Because if Shive turns into a bike, Ifrit's going to turn into a scooter, and Ramuh'll become a goped. Carbuncle can be a pair of those shoes with wheels in the heel.

Since when is there a "one character per company" rule? For all we know, Konami is the only company playing ball.

There's not a rule, it's just a generally accepted idea 'round here. I mean, if no other company wants to pitch in...then whatever. But the idea is that if Konami, Namco, Capcom, Tecmo, Square and SEGA all want in, it'd be unfair to let two Konami characters in, given the limited number of 3rd party slots.

Actually, I was thinking of the Virtual Boy game, The Legend of Zelda: The Leftovers of No Return. Only the two copies were published: one is in my possession and the other is in a cave on the top of Mount Everest, surrounded by a flaming moat with flame-proof crocodiles. In this this game, the dreaded Agin' Ham (a giant slab of meat with dark mystical powers) kidnaps Zelda and locks her in a giant freezer.
.

Bah, I can't think of anything funny to write here.

My mistake. However, Miis are quickly eclipsing Kawasaki as Nintendo's casual gamer mascot. Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wario Ware and Big Brain Academy as well as the upcoming Wii Music and Wii Fitness.

Okay, but I still think it's a bit early to consider Miis a "Nintendo mascot".

...Heh, "Kawasaki", like the jetski. I get it.

Perfect Dark DS! PLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPL EASE...

Well, the theory behind Halo DS is that MS doesn't really want to enter the too-crowded handheld market, so they'd support Nintendo machines, (since Sony's their primary business rival) and since Halo is their biggest franchise, that's the one they'd use.

And what you said about Rare needing Ninty's approval to put one of it's 64 games on XBLA is true. So really, the decision is mostly Microsoft's. Do they want to basically give a competitor a game?

Thanks. Miatomto is reportedly making a new Mii channel, I think, so maybe its something in the same vein/

'Fraid not. His new channel is basically a Mii Popularity Contest. Sounds just as "cool" as the Everybody Votes Channel, if you ask me.

And on the subject of WW vs. TP...I don't feel like arguing all you brought up. I could...but I don't see the point. I like WW more, you like TP more. Plus, I've got work in a few minutes, so, see you dudes later.

 

[Inkslinger]

Well Wiseguy, Sakurai planned on having baloon fighter and mach rider on the game, so i'll say that he felt there were good for smash. Time constraints is what held him back from doing so, i'll say if sakurai had more time to develop melee we would've had those 2 (and perhaps less clones and maybe sonic as sega was close to nintendo at that time).

 

[Copperpot]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at least a little bit intrigued in regards to the whole Machrider and Balloon Fight situation. They were both considerred for Melee and probably would have been added if not for unforseen circumstances. Then again, like Wiseguy has hinted at, it's possible that they weren't added, because it may have been determined that they weren't necessarily 'feesible' in the Smash Bros world.

Now, there have been so many new characters introduced since the incarnation of Melee that they may be overshadowed by more recent Nintendo icons.

 

[Inkslinger]

Well i guess you can also say that they may be added to brawl in order to make up for what happened in Melee. I'll also say that they weren't merely considered and were actually planned for the game.

 

[Devastlian]

Yeah, but doesn't Rare also need Nintendo's consent before they can put a Nintendo published game on Xbox arcade?

Rare published Perfect Dark so they wouldn't need anyone's permission.

I wish there were more conversations with Sigint. That guy was way cooler than Nastasha or...whoever was the weapons guy in MGS2.

Snake was the weapons guy in MGS2.

Also, Isaac does talk in Golden Sun: The Lost Age.

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
Ah. I never played through all of the second one. Just bits and pieces. Although, as soon as I 'acquire' a PS2, I can play it. God bless you Blockbuster and DVD burners.

And I forgot about Lost Age. My bad. I still like Felix more though.

 

[Drascin]

...I came here all set to answer everything, but Wiseguy's last post's length killed my will to do so - together with a lot of my will to live. Ow.

Anyway, let's see what stayed in my brain after the Wall Attack.

@Mendez:

-Yeah, the pumpkin is also a good key. But really, I just used Ultima. As you said, Sephi is a long fight. The only thing the pumpkin does is try to shorten it a bit. If you're willing to risk a bit, then it's your best choice (Berserk? Man, your friend is pretty suicidal, ain't he?), but I preferred to take it steady. Dodge, attack only a single combo at a time (he seems to never dodge aerials, so go for that), and shield and heal often. If you don't try to overexert yourself he shouldn't even get more than a few hits in. He's fast, but predictable .

Though I'm wondering just how hard he must be on Critical. That must be an interesting fight. Darn japanese and their gamehogging. We also want Final Mix, dammit!

-Halo DS? You absolutely blindsided me there. "Around two weeks" counting from when? I'm not a Halo fan, tbh (there have been very, very few FPSs that have actually caught my attention) but, as mentioned, this might hint to MS not really caring about the handheld market, which might mean Perfect Dark DS, which would be cool (I still want the original in the VC, tho. Ive heard Perfect Dark Zero was a travesty to all things Perfect Dark, so I'm a bit... mistrusting might be the word)

-And thanks for the MM tip. I couldn't remember for the life of me what those guys were called. It's been wayy too long since I played that game... yes, way too long. This calls for only one course of action... Robin, to the Emulatormobile! (here's hoping they don't scold me too much when they catch me playing in the faculty's computers )

@Wisey:

- You seem surprised that I advocate shooting people with a hammer. You obviously do not frequent roleplaying forums . You see, the hammergunning is a little trope of ours, where, as a solution to bad GMing problems, we advocate shooting the GM in the face. With a hammer. As to how that works, it's rather easy, really. The most popular trend is using a heavy crossbow, and modificate the leverage to allow it to shoot heavy-headed projectiles, such as a common house hammer, with precision at short distances. For those with economic trouble, it is recommended that they forego the shooting part, and merely throw it headfirst at the GM's face. It's much less effective (therefore the recommendation of pooling resources among players for a communal hammergun), but usually gets the point across.

I hope I made that clear .

-

As for the Ridley song, I think it was Sakurai's way of saying: "Nintendo has me under a gag order until E3, so I can't reveal any new characters. But check out this rockin' tune! *hint hint, wink wink*

I hope you're right, man. It would look very much like it, but, as I already said some time ago, I prefer to not have any hopes. Dissapointments suck. But yeah, Ridley's looking mighty likely in the light of that update. And good thing too. You can never have too many hyperintelligent, plasma-breathing dragons in a game.

-And yes, we should discuss stages more. I don't know, given that this is a character thread, we might try to guess some ideas for the stages each character in your roster would have related to him, such as Melee having Corneria for Fox and Yoshi's story for Yoshi.

We already know Meta Knight's (the Halberd), one of starfox's (that space station thingy in the second trailer), one of Yoshi's (Yoshi's Island, which by sheer graphic cuteness is a hundred times superior to melee's yoshi stage), and what looks like a FE stage, with some rather familiar flags . The cloud stage is obviously Pit's. And there seems to be a Metal Gear level too, but we know nothing of its configuration (maybe random wandering guards as hazards? When the're gonna shoot, they get their trademark "!" simbol in their heads, complete with funny noise. I'm certain that that would make a lot of MG fans chuckle )

But, let's think... what do you think Metroid will be represented by, for example? Melee had a rising lava hell and a square stage with good ol' Kraid. What would be your choices for Brawl?

I am thinking maybe Artifact Temple. It's a round, flat circle, so it would be much like FD, only with the monuments as different height platforms. As for hazards, if Ridley wasn't so very likely to be a character, I'd have said MetaRidley doing sweeping runs around.

See? We can get a lot of discussion going in this front! And noone can tell us we're offtopic since we are linking it to Wiseguy's char selection . Seriously, I prefer discussing it in here, it's like the only peaceful shard of civility (and spelling, which I really appreciate given english is not my first language and I have problems to understand chatspeak) in this boards, the only place where there aren't dozens of pro wannabes and exceedingly despective peeps shooting down any idea that would be unfit for tourney play running totally amuk.

 

[NukeA6]

Let's see the characters added:

R.O.B.
I agree that it would be a good choice for Brawl since it was not only some weird accessory for the NES but it also appeared in a few games like Star Fox 64 and Mario Kart Double Dash. I'd like to see a moveset for it.

King Trode
No comment.

Pacman
He would fit in the 3rd party section and he is appearing in the next arcade Mario Kart. But he may not be popular enough to compete with Sonic and Megaman.

Mach Rider
I want him in but will he make it?

Lloyd Irving
He has almost no chance of making it in Brawl. He would have to be very lucky.