PPMD's opinion on PM

[Broasty]

Yo DMG, not gonna lie, a change list would be pretty nice. It would provide the community reinsurance that their feedback is being heard. The only downside I do see to it would be nerfs demotivating players to use a character (I.E. Mario's Fireballs nerf stops people from picking up a character that "may now suck"). I do see this stopping players who're looking for easy wins to be pushed away...however I doubt this means no one will use the character...just look at Sonic. Wizzy STILL uses and kicks ass with Sonic.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Yo DMG, not gonna lie, a change list would be pretty nice. It would provide the community reinsurance that their feedback is being heard. The only downside I do see to it would be nerfs demotivating players to use a character (I.E. Mario's Fireballs nerf stops people from picking up a character that "may now suck"). I do see this stopping players who're looking for easy wins to be pushed away...however I doubt this means no one will use the character...just look at Sonic. Wizzy STILL uses and kicks *** with Sonic.

There is going to be a change list, but not until they release a new version. There's no point in releasing a changelist in advance because if they change something they'll look like a-holes.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

There is going to be a change list, but not until they release a new version. There's no point in releasing a changelist in advance because if they change something they'll look like a-holes.

No, then they add that in. They will look like I don't know, people who update lists?lol

 

[Stryker]

I think a big part about not actively responding to these complaints even when they may be addressed has everything to do with the PMBR wanting everyone to focus on specifically this version of PM. By confirming certain changes to characters, people may stop playing those particular characters which not only damages the meta development of those characters but also makes it harder for the BR to specifically address those characters because they have less meta info to work with. Why keep playing a character if they're going to be made less viable?

So, this is a pretty good point, and I can certainly see maybe some players dropping characters because of this.
(As a side note, this doesn't "hurt" the advancement of our metagame unless that player stops playing PM all together. Logically, if they are dropping thier main due to nerfs, they will simply pick up a new character and start to try to advance that characters metagame forward. If someone were to say that this hurts the meta game, then the simple act of anyone switching mains hurts the metagame.)
I think it's more reasonable to assume that if people see that a move is going to get nerfed, they won't use that move as much because it's not going to be the same for long, so it's no use learning how to use it if it's simply going to be taken away, and this might drive them away from the character.
An example of this is a player who doesn't want to continue to play Mario because the fireballs are going to be changed, and there is no use learning how to use the current fireballs correctly when new ones are coming out that you would have to learn how to use efficiently.

One thing that Riot games has said about the Champion in League of Legends is that they find that player who only play characters because they are strong, or only play characters because they are popular will move on to the new character that fits that category when the character they play is getting nerfed. However, player who play champions because they enjoy the champion usually find a way to make it work and continue enjoying their champion. (So long as they are not nerfed into un-useability)

 

[Mischief]

I'd rather a balanced meta than a bunch of players happy with their imbalanced game.

 

[DMG]

Most successful fighting games are usually the opposite though: a bunch of people happy to play it even if it's imba as sheeeit

 

[shairn]

Imbalanced games are more consistent and easier to learn. Why learn 40 matchups when you only need to learn 5? Plus thousands have paved the way for you already, so even if the road ahead is long it's not particularly difficult.

 

[DMG]

If it's Marvel 2, the road is beyond difficult LOL

 

[trash?]

imbalanced don't mean unfun, remember. marvel vs. capcom 2 had four characters that really mattered all that much out of it's 50 or so, and that game was pretty damn fun

I am still 100% for better edgeguarding options over nerfed recovery. there's a LOT of characters in this game, and for the sake of variety one of them is bound to have good enough recovery to where on-stage edgeguards won't cut it. melee's brutality with edgeguarding (axe vs. silent wolf from yesterday is pretty hilariously entertaining with this in mind) was mostly a fluke, because the characters with good recoveries were often REALLY bad in all other areas

one option you could have is, on top of having edgeguard-friendly aerials, have a recovery that can go HUGE distances, but can be easily punished and edgeguarded. thus, the character that would get this could be taken out when recovering, but if they're stretching out and successfully killing people off-stage, they can get back on

alternatively: give more characters spikes. by which I mean, please give yoshi a spike his fair has so much startup lag and all he gets out of it is a meteor. pls. pls

 

[DMG]

Being able to go really deep is already something we kind of loathe for the newer characters that got it. Pit and Mewtwo directly come to mind. The further slap in the face of decency is those recoveries aren't easy to edgeguard or deal with. The only characters that might fit that bill, who aren't ROB, are multi jumpers and IDK if that's a route you want to take more characters in.

 

[Bleck]

imbalanced don't mean unfun, remember. marvel vs. capcom 2 had four characters that really mattered all that much out of it's 50 or so, and that game was pretty damn fun

not if you wanted to play as shuma

 

[Chevy]

Being able to go really deep is already something we kind of loathe for the newer characters that got it. Pit and Mewtwo directly come to mind. The further slap in the face of decency is those recoveries aren't easy to edgeguard or deal with. The only characters that might fit that bill, who aren't ROB, are multi jumpers and IDK if that's a route you want to take more characters in.

Ness

 

[DMG]

K Rob and Ness, that's about it though

 

[Vigilante]

Bros, you got to stop sending me giant lumps of text. I work full time, I have other responsibilities, and I can't hope to answer them all. I'm not annoyed or anything, but these days, I've been recieving a lot of stuff in my inbox, and they're actually accumulating. I will try to answer you tonight, but right now, you'll have to wait a few hours.

 

[McSlur]

@Stryker Strong Bad mentioned in his interview last night that one reason why they don't put out sneak peeks is that characters change all the time. Anyone with Brawlbox on the team can change a character to test things out. He put it this way; let's say you change something, and the community reacts positively. After a while though, you find that the change you made was horrible, or really unneeded, so you reverse the change. Then everyone gets pissed off because you announced something neat, but it's no longer viable.
For example, in an Reddit answer thread thing SB was doing, he mentioned that someone had made Wario a new up B move. He was to shove himself upwards on a pole, and you were supposed to rotate the control stick to go higher (or something to that effect I never played any Wario games).
He really liked the idea, but after a while everyone decided that it was an unnecessary change, so it was removed from 3.0.

He summed up his point better than me, though. I tend to ramble.

 

[F. Blue]

@Stryker Strong Bad mentioned in his interview last night that one reason why they don't put out sneak peeks is that characters change all the time. Anyone with Brawlbox on the team can change a character to test things out. He put it this way; let's say you change something, and the community reacts positively. After a while though, you find that the change you made was horrible, or really unneeded, so you reverse the change. Then everyone gets pissed off because you announced something neat, but it's no longer viable.
For example, in an Reddit answer thread thing SB was doing, he mentioned that someone had made Wario a new up B move. He was to shove himself upwards on a pole, and you were supposed to rotate the control stick to go higher (or something to that effect I never played any Wario games).
He really liked the idea, but after a while everyone decided that it was an unnecessary change, so it was removed from 3.0.

He summed up his point better than me, though. I tend to ramble.

They should use some of these unused ideas for Warioman. Give him the bike as well.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@Stryker Strong Bad mentioned in his interview last night that one reason why they don't put out sneak peeks is that characters change all the time. Anyone with Brawlbox on the team can change a character to test things out. He put it this way; let's say you change something, and the community reacts positively. After a while though, you find that the change you made was horrible, or really unneeded, so you reverse the change. Then everyone gets pissed off because you announced something neat, but it's no longer viable.
For example, in an Reddit answer thread thing SB was doing, he mentioned that someone had made Wario a new up B move. He was to shove himself upwards on a pole, and you were supposed to rotate the control stick to go higher (or something to that effect I never played any Wario games).
He really liked the idea, but after a while everyone decided that it was an unnecessary change, so it was removed from 3.0.

He summed up his point better than me, though. I tend to ramble.

Can I find this interview anywhere? I always appreaciate any PM talk by Strong Bad!

 

[McSlur]

Can I find this interview anywhere? I always appreaciate any PM talk by Strong Bad!

Uh, yeah...on Reddit. :D http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1njzof/hi_im_strong_bad_midwest_smasher_and_lead/

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Thank you.

 

[9bit]

alternatively: give more characters spikes. by which I mean, please give yoshi a spike his fair has so much startup lag and all he gets out of it is a meteor. pls. pls

Give MK a spike

For real though can you imagine if MK's Dair was a spike and it ended traveling as soon as you hit someone with it.

 

[trash?]

no need tho, you'd still be carrying them all the way down to the pit with you by virtue of what his angled dair is

for something that was supposed to be a nerf by replacing his old dair, it's REALLY fantastic

 

[9bit]

no need tho, you'd still be carrying them all the way down to the pit with you by virtue of what his angled dair is

for something that was supposed to be a nerf by replacing his old dair, it's REALLY fantastic

Oh it's definitely a great move, on of my favorites of his. Love the uniqueness.

But how OP would it be if you could kill someone with it and live lol

 

[trash?]

Bros, you got to stop sending me giant lumps of text. I work full time, I have other responsibilities, and I can't hope to answer them all. I'm not annoyed or anything, but these days, I've been recieving a lot of stuff in my inbox, and they're actually accumulating. I will try to answer you tonight, but right now, you'll have to wait a few hours.

SORRY VIG here's a point-by-point thing:

1. slightly nerf recoveries
2. make recoveries that are big, but easily edgeguarded, thus being an advantage for those who successfully edgeguard off-stage, but not much of an advantage when actually recovering on the defensive
3. give yoshi a spike
4. give ganondorf a gun

it worked for t.hawk, okay

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Also give Sheik a meteor on the very tip of the dair she is the only character without downward sending move right now, no character has deserved that...

 

[9bit]

inb4 someone is like "everyone can footstool"

 

[trash?]

but footstool doesn't work unless they don't poke out any aerials at all, so unless you have a good mixup to go with it (something like vs. yoshi, since by putting out an aerial he loses his armor and thus can be easily nudged off a bit for a 50/50), it's not very useful

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Give MK a spike

For real though can you imagine if MK's Dair was a spike and it ended traveling as soon as you hit someone with it.

You can kinda like..push people down with the dair if their near the edge..
New dair would be cool doe

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Nah, don't make him get nerfed after that. I guess its fine, you can't have only good moves

 

[Vigilante]

@ Stryker :

I've never asked for people to "stop complaining". I am merely explaining what we are doing with their complaints.

1) We listen, take note.
2) We spend much time debating these. We weight the pros and cons of each idea that's received significant support.
3) We find solutions. They may not always be the ones proposed by the community because they sometimes seem good on paper but don't work once tested.
4) We test them thoroughly.

The thing is, we once took a more "public" approach in the past, streaming in-progress builds. While there were those who were reasonable and understood that it was work in progress, for the most part, it did more wrong than good as people would watch the in-progress builds and assume that Project M was a janky mess. Trust me, I want to just stream the new builds, but I cannot because it would bite us in the butt in the end.

We're actually pretty open about our development. Not many teams have actually given so many alpha builds for people to play and test out. However, we also do not want to unveil things that we can't promise. it would look unprofessional on our part. We obviously don't have the time to answer every inquiry that comes our way, so we'll sometimes respond to the public in general as opposed to only particulars. The reason for this is because we all have full time jobs, actual things we do outside of making Project M. The time spent answering questions is time not used for development. Mind you, I believe in taking care of our community, but there's a limit to how much presence we can have at the moment.

I don't really understand why you feel like you're screaming as a brick wall as literally every new demo release attempts to improve on many of the things the community believe needs tweaking. We are demonstrating that we listen to the community through action.

There is also hype management. If we told everyone what was going to be in the next releases right away, we'd lose out on making awesome reveal videos.

Can we improve on things? Sure. Can we admit our failures? We have multiples times now. However, I find you are demanding too much of us. We will not announce things until we are certain of their inclusion, and it can take time for us to actually find the right solution to a problem. Even when we thought we found a solution, it might not be as good as we initially thought. We always eventually reveal our stances and what we intend to do. However, we do not make empty promises.

 

[1FD]

I find you are demanding to much of us.

It's too demanding, and dot your eyes.


<3

 

[Phaiyte]

Give MK a spike

For real though can you imagine if MK's Dair was a spike and it ended traveling as soon as you hit someone with it.

omg I would never pick another character ever again LOL

 

[Stevo]

diddy is too good
mario is too good
pit is too good
ganon is not good enough
squirtle is not good enough
downthrow chaingrabs are inherently broken, so mario and ganon should lose theirs
fox's upsmash is too good, but the rest of him is probably fine
olimar is surprisingly well done and is fine as is
pk fire is definitely not okay as it is currently
people complain about falco, but aside from a few MUs like DK, he's probably fine
link's boomerang is powerful but fine as is
marth doesn't need any more kill moves
snake and mewtwo are probably broken, but i don't know how to fix them
please still consider the report i submitted to cmart about zelda some months ago
sheik doesn't need a chain tether, but i personally would still like one anyway, she already dominates the edge so why not
falcon gets ruined by proxy of being a fastfaller without a shine, but i don't know how to fix that
peach is literally perfection
it would be cool to form a non-developer PMBR for knowledgeable players so we can make a standardized tournament stage list

I agree with all of this actually. Including Sheik tether. I think if you made it low range and made tethers a little less safe (maybe more lag on the hop) it would be fine. Like he said, Sheik already owns the ledge anyway. It may not even affect her recovery that much either, as you can already react to her up-b, so you would not need to preemptively roll up to avoid getting hit by it, so you could just react to if she up-bs or tethers, and just punish accordingly.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Don't forget that tethers also give the recovering player the opportunity to stall out edge invincibility before releasing and up-bing. Considering that's the primary counterplay to sheik's recovery, it's a very big recovery buff.

 

[TimeSmash]

Don't forget that tethers also give the recovering player the opportunity to stall out edge invincibility before releasing and up-bing. Considering that's the primary counterplay to sheik's recovery, it's a very big recovery buff.

Definitely. Not to mention that it feels like some tethers have way more range than Sheik's crappy UpB. A reappear hitbox or something would help, but as you said a tether would aid her greatly

 

[Deleted member]

not so much, the basic counterplay to sheiks edge game is to edgehog her and wait her out, which tether does not change at all. if sheik gets the edge, she can stall infinitely anyway. all tether does is add some minimally functional depth to an otherwise linear character, and maybe prevent chain suicides.

 

[Stevo]

Don't forget that tethers also give the recovering player the opportunity to stall out edge invincibility before releasing and up-bing. Considering that's the primary counterplay to sheik's recovery, it's a very big recovery buff.

do you mean tethering to the ledge for a split second and releasing and up-b instead? If that's what you mean, then you can still wait that out and react appropriately because Sheik's up-b doesn't have a hitbox that comes out quickly.

If that's not what you mean then I don't follow.

 

[Kink-Link5]

@Stryker Strong Bad mentioned in his interview last night that one reason why they don't put out sneak peeks is that characters change all the time. Anyone with Brawlbox on the team can change a character to test things out. He put it this way; let's say you change something, and the community reacts positively. After a while though, you find that the change you made was horrible, or really unneeded, so you reverse the change. Then everyone gets pissed off because you announced something neat, but it's no longer viable.
For example, in an Reddit answer thread thing SB was doing, he mentioned that someone had made Wario a new up B move. He was to shove himself upwards on a pole, and you were supposed to rotate the control stick to go higher (or something to that effect I never played any Wario games).
He really liked the idea, but after a while everyone decided that it was an unnecessary change, so it was removed from 3.0.

He summed up his point better than me, though. I tend to ramble.

B-but that wouldn't really happen, right?

 

[Stryker]

@ Stryker :
...

Just wanted to say thanks. I think the blog post you guys put out helped people understand the direction you want the game to go, and probably puts many peoples minds at ease.

 

[shairn]

not so much, the basic counterplay to sheiks edge game is to edgehog her and wait her out, which tether does not change at all. if sheik gets the edge, she can stall infinitely anyway. all tether does is add some minimally functional depth to an otherwise linear character, and maybe prevent chain suicides.

It gives her an option to get onstage without the horrible ending lag on her up B, mostly.

 

[Deleted member]

It gives her an option to get onstage without the horrible ending lag on her up B, mostly.

yeah but she pops up instead when the tethers are edge hogged, and as everyone has pointed out you can simply adapt and punish that instead.