PPMD's opinion on PM

[otheusrex]

You're overvaluing the existence of poor recoveries - the problem isn't that certain characters have recoveries that are too good, it's that people are too used to top-tier Melee characters having relatively poor ones. The offstage and edgeguarding games can only grow more interesting if people actually have multiple choices of actions to take as both the defending player (as previously argued by people in favor of edgehogging) and the recovering player.

Instead of complaining about Diddy's up special being too good, people should be complaining about other characters having recoveries that aren't good enough - note how, in restoring the Melee top tiers to their Melee selves in the transition from Brawl, their recoveries were generally reverted (read; nerfed) from the overall buffed versions they had in Brawl (most notably, Fox, Falco and Marth).

I really would argue that it's important for certain character's to have not just less good, but actually bad recoveries. If everyone has good recoveries it diminishes what's supposed to be a floaty character's strength. The melee vet characters' recoveries were reverted, true, which I think is the right choice, but they probably did it just because that's how they were in melee and they just wanted to keep them the same, rather than they recognize that recovery ability is an important counterbalance to having a strong pressure game with strong KO options

 

[Bleck]

Making a design decision because that's how it was in Melee is not necessarily a good idea.

 

[DMG]

Awesome post 10/10 would Triangle Jerk

Ya you should make a group. There are like 8 different Smash clubs and groups I'd join you in, mostly hate clubs but they don't have to know that right?

 

[Mr.Random]

You're overvaluing the existence of poor recoveries - the problem isn't that certain characters have recoveries that are too good, it's that people are too used to top-tier Melee characters having relatively poor ones. The offstage and edgeguarding games can only grow more interesting if people actually have multiple choices of actions to take as both the defending player (as previously argued by people in favor of edgehogging) and the recovering player.

Instead of complaining about Diddy's up special being too good, people should be complaining about other characters having recoveries that aren't good enough - note how, in restoring the Melee top tiers to their Melee selves in the transition from Brawl, their recoveries were generally reverted (read; nerfed) from the overall buffed versions they had in Brawl (most notably, Fox, Falco and Marth).

Well. Actually Fox and Falco's recoveries actually got nerfed unintentionally in this game. When they use Up b. They don't carry momentum like they do in Melee. There side b's are fine though, although Falco did get his side b buffed in Brawl.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I really would argue that it's important for certain character's to have not just less good, but actually bad recoveries. If everyone has good recoveries it diminishes what's supposed to be a floaty character's strength. The melee vet characters' recoveries were reverted, true, which I think is the right choice, but they probably did it just because that's how they were in melee and they just wanted to keep them the same, rather than they recognize that recovery ability is an important counterbalance to having a strong pressure game with strong KO options

But now you have floaty characters with strong pressure. (Pit metaknight Lucas mewtwo buffed samus) The game has blended to the point where you can't go by melee norm with a few outliers, this game is different.

 

[Phan7om]

But now you have floaty characters with strong pressure. (Pit metaknight Lucas mewtwo buffed samus) The game has blended to the point where you can't go by melee norm with a few outliers, this game is different.

Metaknight is the 6 fastest faller and Lucas is the 9th, Pit falls just as fast as Bowser, Pika and Sonic, dont know if you would call that floaty but I wouldnt.

-
Anyway

I legit want them to do a test where they nerf everyones recovery that people say could use nerfing (not Puff, Falcon, Falco, Marth, etc.) and see how people would respond. Let Mewtwo's teleport be 4x slower and go 1/2 the distance, Take away pits glide, let diddy's barrels charge only 1/3 the time, let tethers only grab the ledge from close and only be used 1 time, etc. People will still drop edgeguards and the game wouldnt even change that much lol.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I consider floaty in the aspects of their jumps, not so much fall speed, example DDD I consider floaty even though his fall speed isn't the slowest. But by your definition only Samus and mewtwo fit that category. Second I agree in the fact that players are going to drop edge guards even if only given two jumps, and they will still complain. So what is the point of trying to appease everyone. People love to complain. Mewtwo's distance is fine, it is the speed that he acts out of it people find annoying.

 

[mimgrim]

I consider floaty in the aspects of their jumps, not so much fall speed, example DDD I consider floaty even though his fall speed isn't the slowest. But by your definition only Samus and mewtwo fit that category.

No they don't lol. Peach, just as floaty as Mewtwo, Zelda, just as floaty as Samus, Puff, floatier then all of them, would fit as well. ICs, Kirby, Luigi, and ROB are pretty floaty as well, though not as much as the former ones.

/nitpicking

 

[GP&B]

Saw this off of a post hbox made about PM and would like to discuss it some. Can't say much because I'm on my phone. I haven't heard of the autocombos complaint in a while but it is someone justified coming from someone who mains Pit, whose Dthrow is insanely good for everything. Overcentralizing throws are the one place where I absolutely agree it needs adjustment. Ganon/Pit dthrow chains are dumb, MK's insane dthrow tech chase is dumb, Mario/Ness/Yoshi/Lucas/Pit's dthrow into KO are dumb. Other non grab combos I'm not sure about because people need to work on SDI more but I've never been a fan of these almost mindless throw combos.

The game is not bad or like brawl. I think PM is pretty fun BUT it has two major flaws according to me.

1: So many recoveries is WAY to good. When multiple chars basically have a recovery when you should never try to edgeguard them you know something is wrong

2: the combos are way to automatic. This means the combos is way easier to do and DI have less of a impact (kill from a direct throw or throw plus one move is also extremly common).

This two problems leads to some other stuff.

1: Less areas to master since the "answer" for these situations is so obvious and you can't do anything against it.

2: since you have less areas to master I do think in PM in terms of being "overall smart" is not as benefited as some people may wanna see.

The complexity and variation (decission wise)was something beautiful with Melee. PM got variation on the cast but I do think the price they payed for it is not worth it.

Still a fun game but I would have liked to see those changes

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

No they don't lol. Peach, just as floaty as Mewtwo, Zelda, just as floaty as Samus, Puff, floatier then all of them, would fit as well. ICs, Kirby, Luigi, and ROB are pretty floaty as well, though not as much as the former ones.

/nitpicking

Before nitpicking, I would suggest going further to see what that conversation was in response to. This was saying some floaty characters in the game exert strong presence in the neutral game so the good pressure must have bad recovery . Floaty equals not as strong neutral bias people bring from melee is not valid in pm.

 

[KayB]

I'm not really going to comment on normal recoveries that are too good, I just think tether recoveries in general are a bit silly.
1. Some tether recoveries are really good, sometimes too good. The worst offender of this is Lucas, because he has access to PSI Magnet and his tether, and the combination of the two covers a lot of distance and risky to challenge in the air.

2. Some characters are noticeably worse at edgeguarding against tether recoveries. For example, Marth has no real answer to tether recoveries because people who use tethers can dip below the range of an f-smash and snap to edge quick enough to avoid an aerial punish. Plus, the air dodge > tether prevents people from going off-stage for a gimp/edgeguard. The common argument is that they could just wait on the edge and have them pop up in the air for a punish, but since they know it's coming, they can DI towards the stage (because, let's be honest, even if you receive damage, EVERYBODY would rather be on-stage than off-stage) or DI up if they get sent off-stage for an easier angle for recovery. It's even quick enough where you can miss the punish if you miss the timing. I think this is silly because if you look at Melee and even Brawl, almost every character, even a lot of the bad ones, had an answer for nearly every recovery. The tether system we have now is unbalanced because there are some characters who literally don't have an answer for tethers and that's bad.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

I'm not really going to comment on normal recoveries that are too good, I just think tether recoveries in general are a bit silly.
1. Some tether recoveries are really good, sometimes too good. The worst offender of this is Lucas, because he has access to PSI Magnet and his tether, and the combination of the two covers a lot of distance and risky to challenge in the air.

2. Some characters are noticeably worse at edgeguarding against tether recoveries. For example, Marth has no real answer to tether recoveries because people who use tethers can dip below the range of an f-smash and snap to edge quick enough to avoid an aerial punish. Plus, the air dodge > tether prevents people from going off-stage for a gimp/edgeguard. The common argument is that they could just wait on the edge and have them pop up in the air for a punish, but since they know it's coming, they can DI towards the stage (because, let's be honest, even if you receive damage, EVERYBODY would rather be on-stage than off-stage) or DI up if they get sent off-stage for an easier angle for recovery. It's even quick enough where you can miss the punish if you miss the timing. I think this is silly because if you look at Melee and even Brawl, almost every character, even a lot of the bad ones, had an answer for nearly every recovery. The tether system we have now is unbalanced because there are some characters who literally don't have an answer for tethers and that's bad.

Maybe Tethers could be around the length of Shiek's chain but can also be angled. Or would that still be too long?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I'm not really going to comment on normal recoveries that are too good, I just think tether recoveries in general are a bit silly.
1. Some tether recoveries are really good, sometimes too good. The worst offender of this is Lucas, because he has access to PSI Magnet and his tether, and the combination of the two covers a lot of distance and risky to challenge in the air.

2. Some characters are noticeably worse at edgeguarding against tether recoveries. For example, Marth has no real answer to tether recoveries because people who use tethers can dip below the range of an f-smash and snap to edge quick enough to avoid an aerial punish. Plus, the air dodge > tether prevents people from going off-stage for a gimp/edgeguard. The common argument is that they could just wait on the edge and have them pop up in the air for a punish, but since they know it's coming, they can DI towards the stage (because, let's be honest, even if you receive damage, EVERYBODY would rather be on-stage than off-stage) or DI up if they get sent off-stage for an easier angle for recovery. It's even quick enough where you can miss the punish if you miss the timing. I think this is silly because if you look at Melee and even Brawl, almost every character, even a lot of the bad ones, had an answer for nearly every recovery. The tether system we have now is unbalanced because there are some characters who literally don't have an answer for tethers and that's bad.

Sounds specifically like z tethers are the real issue. For characters like olimar and tink, i support the tethers as is. Also lucas cant be the worst offender when his grapple length is almost half as long as samus's. At least projectiles and going off stage hurts lucas. Also in regards to brawl, how many had an answer for metaknight pikachu and even pit. Every game had some good recoveries, this one just has a lot of them. At least the balance is there.

 

[Phan7om]

Special tethers (up-b side-b tethers) should stay the same, z tethers should only grab once and should come out a little slower. Then I feel they'd be fine.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Special tethers (up-b side-b tethers) should stay the same, z tethers should only grab once and should come out a little slower. Then I feel they'd be fine.

Yea. It's so cheese when you get someone into an edge guard situation and you know they can retether the edge 3 times and have an up B. Some have even more options and just about all those are dangerous to challenge.

Soon™

 

[Bleck]

The tether system we have now is unbalanced because there are some characters who literally don't have an answer for tethers and that's bad.

Maybe if Melee Marth wasn't so sacrosanct, this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[DMG]

Marth was a bad choice to use, because he doesn't deserve to be really good at handling tethers offstage. Against most tether characters, he holds a pretty big edge from being onstage and edgeguarding from there. Ivysaur can re-tether or plank with razor leaf all she wants: getting back onstage safely will not be easy for them if you play it correctly.

It's true that he's not very good at denying tether opportunities offstage, but I've seen characters who were really good at that and I dunno if that's the solution I would prefer to take. It's very hard to make a character good offstage vs tethers if they aren't multi jump with a long lasting aerial, and you certainly don't want to start slapping that on characters as the answer to tethers. Everyone can't be MK offstage near the edge.

Also, oshi Armada basically said autocombo.

 

[CORY]

2. The common argument is that they could just wait on the edge and have them pop up in the air for a punish, but since they know it's coming, they can DI towards the stage (because, let's be honest, even if you receive damage, EVERYBODY would rather be on-stage than off-stage) or DI up if they get sent off-stage for an easier angle for recovery. It's even quick enough where you can miss the punish if you miss the timing. ... The tether system we have now is unbalanced because there are some characters who literally don't have an answer for tethers and that's bad.

this so much : ( even knowing what's going to happen, ganon can't get good hits on a lot of the tether jumps if they di in. he just doesn't ledge hop high enough to get a good hit in, and even if he does, they just di to the other side of the stage : /

or, they're ivy and di forward and bair you out of whatever you were trying to do and make you feel bad D :

 

[DMG]

Ganon vs Ivy is biblical proof that Satan exists

 

[KayB]

Also lucas cant be the worst offender when his grapple length is almost half as long as samus's.

Samus' tether range is redonkulous so that's not really saying much. Plus, having a good recovery bodes well with Samus' style of play since you can't rush down, it's slow and systematic. Lucas on the other hand is all about getting those 0-deaths that plus a really good recovery that some characters can't really do anything about is unsettling.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Very true, but that systematic approach actually can be just as dangerous against a lot of the cast. all the Lucas 0 to death non sense can all be stopped with advanced d.I, it will just take a while for people to do it cause the game is still fairly new. The infinite being the exception, but outside of that dair shouldn't be giving him more than 10% damage on the opponent, or a tech chase. The people hit by dair > up smash literally committed the same crime as not d.I fox's up throw in melee.

 

[Phaiyte]

Oh, we're talking about autocombos now?

Fox: nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > shine > wavedash > usmash


yep

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Oh, we're talking about autocombos now?

Fox: nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > nair > shine > wavedash > usmash


yep

no

 

[GP&B]

My only real complaints regarding autocombos has to do with way too powerful throw options. When it comes to other combos, it's way too early to say. Despite my frustrations over combos like Fox's UThrow -> Uair, it's not a guarantee when good SDI comes into play. The same goes for a lot of other combos in PM and it's simply way too early to make statements that are effectively the equivalent of "Yes, we have tested and tried every possible DI angle and SDI attempt and know for sure that these moves link too easily." Throws I can get behind because the results from a throw are far, far easier to read and I think there's plenty of evidence. In general though? No, we need a lot more time to make solid statements about that.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

pit's dthrow is kinda yea.. Can't say I've seen someone do it and have no follow up options.

 

[DMG]

That's cause Sheik throw angles appear to have been slapped on that throw

 

[Mr.Random]

I like combos. Don't understand that complaint. I love gaining offensive momentum after landing a sweet combo.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

If they come from a grab its a little different, since grab armor is still a thing in this game, strings coming from a grab are more dangerous than moves starting from a regular move. Grabs are just easier to convert from because of this, and this is one of the reasons people throw around the term auto combo, like on mario for example. There are many other reasons, at least on mario, but that's the bare bones part of it.

 

[shairn]

I like combos. Don't understand that complaint. I love gaining offensive momentum after landing a sweet combo.

Combos are awesome. Moves and throws that have guaranteed easy followups less so. It's kind of a pain that, when Lucas grabs me, I have to accept the fact that I'm going to eat massive damage regardless of what I do.

 

[Veishi336]

there seems to be a wide debate about these tethers. I never found the tethers to be annyoing...except samus'. Feels like she could recover from completely underneath the stage. Other than it's length i wouldnt have an issue. Lucas' tether on the other hand, is a great asset to him. I don't know if anyone knows this but you can counter both character's tethers as well. I've witnessed this plenty of times first hand since i play lucas as my main. It really isn't as bad as you all are making it out to be.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

there seems to be a wide debate about these tethers. I never found the tethers to be annyoing...except samus'. Feels like she could recover from completely underneath the stage. Other than it's length i wouldnt have an issue. Lucas' tether on the other hand, is a great asset to him. I don't know if anyone knows this but you can counter both character's tethers as well. I've witnessed this plenty of times first hand since i play lucas as my main. It really isn't as bad as you all are making it out to be.

The problem IIRC is not the tether itself, but the ability to Magnet into tether or tether into magnet into another tether or something. And then he STILL has his PKT2. So IMO, if they remove PKT2 and make magnet a little more punishable, Lucas' recovery would be balanced well enough.

 

[Veishi336]

The problem IIRC is not the tether itself, but the ability to Magnet into tether or tether into magnet into another tether or something. And then he STILL has his PKT2. So IMO, if they remove PKT2 and make magnet a little more punishable, Lucas' recovery would be balanced well enough.

ok i can understand that but it somewhat reminds me of link and his tether shenanigans. He can do the same thing almost tether wise. But alas it seems like these recoveries are just trash to everyone. I just hope they do what everyone wishes for and nerf majority of the cast's recoveries as much as everyone says they need to be nerfed. Give everyone foxfire if that is the case... or even better Cfalcon's Up-b

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

ok i can understand that but it somewhat reminds me of link and his tether shenanigans. He can do the same thing almost tether wise. But alas it seems like these recoveries are just trash to everyone. I just hope they do what everyone wishes for and nerf majority of the cast's recoveries as much as everyone says they need to be nerfed. Give everyone foxfire if that is the case... or even better Cfalcon's Up-b

Aside from that, I do agree, Falcon is a great example of a recovery that fits in general. Not too easy to get back but there is a variety of ways to get back from upper corners. Also promotes good Gimps, edgeguards and doesn't force players into a "LOADING RECOVERY. Please Wait" scenario.

 

[Spiffykins]

edit

10chars

 

[Spiffykins]

Aramada's grammer mistakes gives me the cracks up.

 

[Veishi336]

Aside from that, I do agree, Falcon is a great example of a recovery that fits in general. Not too easy to get back but there is a variety of ways to get back from upper corners. Also promotes good Gimps, edgeguards and doesn't force players into a "LOADING RECOVERY. Please Wait" scenario.

lol let's say it was a bit of both.

 

[Mr.Random]

If they come from a grab its a little different, since grab armor is still a thing in this game, strings coming from a grab are more dangerous than moves starting from a regular move. Grabs are just easier to convert from because of this, and this is one of the reasons people throw around the term auto combo, like on mario for example. There are many other reasons, at least on mario, but that's the bare bones part of it.

There is no "grab armor" in PM. In 64 and Melee, grabs out prioritize attacks. So when an attack and a move connect at the same time the grab wins and the grabber takes no damage. In PM it's the same but the grabber does take damage.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I'm well aware of this, and have been aware of it for a long time. Its just simpler to say grab armor because that's essentially what it is, especially in pm's case because you take damage.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Yes.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SSkcWqcXvl4
While not the person being addressed, this should give you an idea of just how high the skill gap is between good players and great players. PPMD without shine or lasers is easily better than over 90% of players, maybe even more.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f0EjVR5nT78

 

[Bleck]

I didn't say PPMD playing as somebody other than Falco. I said playing as Falco, and not using shines or lasers.