PPMD's opinion on PM

[Mr.Random]

Discuss. PROFESSIONALLY!

 

[Celestis]

His opinion is perfectly respectable and it is true some things have changed for the Melee Characters. But when he says did not transfer well, I have to disagree. I tin they transferred excellently, just slightly different. I also completely agree with the recoveries. Some are a little dumb. ...Diddy.

The refined mechanics hes talking I do hope get tended to as the engine is improved. Cause I would love to see PP play this game.

 

[Deleted member]

tldr melee characters arent exactly like melee

everyone has said this at least once in the last two years

 

[Mr.Random]

tldr melee characters arent exactly like melee

everyone has said this at least once in the last two years

No it isn't too long and you didn't read. He's talking about how the engine quirks mess with the Melee top tiers movement and control. He also mentions how some characters have silly things like easy recoveries and spammable moves. Which is true with certain characters.

 

[Celestis]

No it isn't too long and you didn't read. He's talking about how the engine quirks mess with the Melee top tiers movement and control. He also mentions how some characters have silly things like easy recoveries and spammable moves. Which is true with certain characters.

Diddy! Diddy screams Brawl to me more then any character with all his silliness. bananas, recovery. All his monkey sounds.

 

[Mr.Random]

Diddy! Diddy screams Brawl to me more then any character with all his silliness. bananas, recovery. All his monkey sounds.

Diddy is actually really well designed in PM. The misfire barrel is the only dumb thing about him.

 

[Broasty]

I like how PM CEO top 8 had a variety of characters and play styles.

 

[Kankato]

Diddy! Diddy screams Brawl to me more then any character with all his silliness. bananas, recovery. All his monkey sounds.

This sounds more like deeply seeded Brawl Salt that a legitimate complaint, especially the monkey sounds. What else were you expecting?

 

[Paradoxium]

"silly things like easier recoveries or easily spammable moves"

This is basically EVERYTHING I hate about Project M, PPMD hit the nail right on the head.

 

[KayB]

Recoveries will always be something that bothers me about PM. Like I wouldn't have such a problem with it if their onstage presence is mediocre, but almost all characters have great on-stage games and absolutely amazing recoveries.

 

[Roxas215]

The recoveries in this game are the ONE thing i absolutely hate about this game.

Why can Mario recover from the depths of hell but Sheik dies from one hit off stage? (Not to mention Mario is absolutely brain dead ON STAGE but thats another story)

 

[kaizo13]

i have a feeling recoveries won't be so free in the next build

well, i hope

 

[Mr.Random]

i have a feeling recoveries won't be so free in the next build

well, i hope

Everyone has Firebird as there recovery.

 

[a vehicle]

People wont listen to PPMD's claim and follow to tag it as "typical melee-closed mindset"
Truth be told P:M favours defensive play a lot (free, gimp-resistant recoveries, spammable moves, hard-to-follow-up throws) which is very clear not only from playing the game but also from watching the streams and tournaments.
Most matches feel like trading hits until someone hits kill percent, then it's time to land that f-smash, because before that they're just going to make it back stage
It's understandable that these problems exist because it inherits them from a game so full of them.
Wether thats good or bad: this isn't that kind of thread. But as far as my opinion goes, it's boring to watch PM tournaments whereas melee is still hype as hell.

 

[Paradoxium]

People wont listen to PPMD's claim and follow to tag it as "typical melee-closed mindset"
Truth be told P:M favours defensive play a lot (free, gimp-resistant recoveries, spammable moves, hard-to-follow-up throws) which is very clear not only from playing the game but also from watching the streams and tournaments.
Most matches feel like trading hits until someone hits kill percent, then it's time to land that f-smash, because before that they're just going to make it back stage
It's understandable that these problems exist because it inherits them from a game so full of them.
Wether thats good or bad: this isn't that kind of thread. But as far as my opinion goes, it's boring to watch PM tournaments whereas melee is still hype as hell.

although i enjoy pm more than melee, melee is way more fun to watch.

People give **** to fox and falco all the time, but those are characters who have an unreachable skill ceiling, high speed playstyles, and recoveries that make interesting edge-guard scenarios. You also have characters like sheik with her amazing gimp game and tech chase playstyle, Marth with his combo and grab game, Captain falcon with the knee and the manliest move set to date, and a few other low tiers who have interesting play styles and gimmicks.

I guess my point is that the melee characters have really flexible playstyles, and you can see the style of play differ between players, and the room for improvisation is probably what keeps people playing and watching melee top this day. There are a few pm charcaters who have cheap moves that discourage creative play and encourage spamming and camping. That is my view on it anyways, I'm sure the pmbr will fix this.

Despite it's flaws pm is my favorite game ever and I will continue to support it.

 

[GP&B]

I don't think it's an off base remark although Falco UThrow issues have more to do with throw release points which are an acknowledged flaw (Pika players are also very familiar with this issue as well and it's not limited to just those two).

3.0's given us a lot of time to develop the metagame more than previous iterations. We finally have all returning characters in place + two missing veterans, a tremendous number of mechanical fixes and adjustments were brought in, and many balance changes (which, save for a few characters, were quite sparse this time around). All of this helped really establish PM's presence and grant it far greater stability. Of course, with this we've now been able to bring some of its core problems to light and it'd be silly to deny that certain factors about PM need to be addressed. It's a patchable game and is capable of becoming even better than it already is and it absolutely deserves such.

 

[Mr.Random]

I like how PM CEO top 8 had a variety of characters and play styles.

CEO was awesome! We had Kirby, Sonic, Mewtwo, Fox, and Pit.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I certainly think there's a lack of recovery balance.

I have to live with it everyday, as I'm a Ness/Roy main. I whip out my PK Kid and I return to the stage from the depths of hell. Then next game Roy's wrinkly ass is waving his flaming sword in the air only to realize he's done for. His onstage game makes up for it, I just wish everyone else had that kind of power balance.

I think it's asinine to say that he doesn't like PM because Melee veterans differ. Some of those changes were for the sake of balance, something Melee didn't have. It's not like small things need to ruin a game.

If Falco cant follow up on a certain move? Fine! Find a way around it. We're the Smash community damn it. We're not here to complain about the apparent. We're here to find creative and badass ways to manipulate situations, not be negative because things aren't the way they used to be.

That's the PM Philosophy! Brawl, was a bad situation. We certainly got around that.

If all we can do is dwell on small changes, we might as well give up on these games. Had we done so in the first place this community would be much different.

 

[Mr.Random]

I don't think it's an off base remark although Falco UThrow issues have more to do with throw release points which are an acknowledged flaw (Pika players are also very familiar with this issue as well and it's not limited to just those two).

3.0's given us a lot of time to develop the metagame more than previous iterations. We finally have all returning characters in place + two missing veterans, a tremendous number of mechanical fixes and adjustments were brought in, and many balance changes (which, save for a few characters, were quite sparse this time around). All of this helped really establish PM's presence and grant it far greater stability. Of course, with this we've now been able to bring some of its core problems to light and it'd be silly to deny that certain factors about PM need to be addressed. It's a patchable game and is capable of becoming even better than it already is and it absolutely deserves such.

More of this.

I certainly think there's a lack of recovery balance.

I have to live with it everyday, as I'm a Ness/Roy main. I whip out my PK Kid and I return to the stage from the depths of hell. Then next game Roy's wrinkly *** is waving his flaming sword in the air only to realize he's done for. His onstage game makes up for it, I just wish everyone else had that kind of power balance.

I think it's asinine today that he doesn't like PM because Melee veterans differ. Some of those changes were for the sake of balance, something Melee didn't have. It's not like small things need to ruin a game.

If Falco cant follow up on a certain move? Fine! Find a way around it. We're the Smash community damn it. We're not here to complain about the apparent. We're here to find creative and badass ways to manipulate situations, not be negative because thins aren't the way they used I be.

That's the PM Philosophy! Brawl, was a bad situation. We certainly got around that.

If all we can do is dwell on small changes, we might as well give up on these games. Had we done so in the first place this community would be much different.

Less of this.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I think it's a little rude that you're blatantly demeaning the opinions of some people. "PROFESSIONALY!" my ass.

The PMBR do all they can to have people enjoy this game. Make your own damn mod if you don't like it. I'm done with this thread. It's clearly leaning into the favor of those who think the game needs to be made to tend to their every need.

 

[Spiffykins]

One of the things I really hate about PM johns is when they are easily applicable to Melee.

We have entered an era where Falco players complain about easily spammable moves.

God save us.

 

[Strong Badam]

One of the things I really hate about PM johns is when they are easily applicable to Melee.

We have entered an era where Falco players complain about easily spammable moves.

God save us.

LOL
Didn't even think about it but this is hilarious.

 

[DrinkingFood]

PM recoveries are better yeah but by how much is exaggerated by Melee players. They aren't used to being as aggressive offstage- better recoveries means you can go out further for edgeguards or extend your combos far past the edge of the stage and make it back. The characters with that ability help negate the increased strength of many recoveries just by making it so the opponent needs to use the full distance they have; no matter how far your recovery reaches, being pushed to the edge of its length makes your options significantly worse. I notice with this ROB all the time, playing against characters like link- if my fair string works (meaning he DIs for survival and not for the combo), and ends in up-b up-air like I usually do, but doesn't kill, he's crazy far out there and has to bomb jump recover. At which point I can snipe him or the bomb with a laser, or go out again and smack him out of the bomb's hitstun.

But I'm not saying I would complain if the recoveries in general were worsened, nor will I say that the game would be worse off for it, because it wouldn't. It would just be a design change that helps appeal more to the game's original audience, even if it has moved on past the point of relying on them.

 

[Joe73191]

I'm a PM fanboy no doubt, however I also don't like how melee top tier was nerfed, while other characters got such insane buffs that it makes melee top tiers look like mid to low tiers. That is not to say i want nerfs, I don't. I think that the cast at this point is so balanced that no one knows what to do.

Every time a character beats a melee top tier all of a sudden they are OP and need nerfs. When Armada won Apex with Pit, he was called OP, when people realized how good Link is he was called OP. Ivysaur was called OP, Zelda was called OP until people learned the match-up. The new OP of the week seems to be Mewtwo because Emukiller beat Mew2king. Now Whizzy's Sonic beat Mew2king's Mewtwo at CEO and Sonic was already nerfed once so they can't really call him OP. People also seem to forget that Emukiller lost to a Diddy Kong right after SKTAR.

You know at Zenith or Big House another character will win and that will be called OP. I think its wrong to ask for nerfs when no character has had a super consistent winning streak. If anything the tournament results show us the cast is balanced, not favoring any one character. Sure characters have powerful options that are different and hard to get around, but people are learning as we have seen with Pit, Link, Ivysaur and Zelda. People are obviously learning Mewtwo as well as seen with a Diddy and a Sonic beating high level Mewtwos.

As far as the complaint about recoveries. It is mainly the fault of brawl characters. Pit, Charizard and stuff like that. However just because some characters have good recoveries doesn't make it broken. Kirby and Jiggs had good recoveries in melee. Samus, Pikachu and others as well.

My only problem with PM is one which I agree with PPMD. The Melee top tiers were changed too much. Ask any Marth main and they will tell you he feels way different. Peach is way different. Fox and Falco lost so much of what made them insane in Melee. Don't even get me started on Shiek. I know it's impossible but if those 5 characters were perfectly identical to Melee then Pm would be the absolute perfect game.

 

[Bleck]

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

 

[Yoki]

The point on recoveries is certainly fair, but I don't think it's right to blame PM's perceived issues on the developer's experience as game designers, especially comparing it to Melee. Yes, PM's buffed recoveries make the game less interesting to watch and a few characters may not be as perfectly designed as they could be, but I don't get how anyone could argue that this game is significantly worse designed than Melee from a competitive perspective. Even disregarding Melee's blatant balance issues and pretending only top tier characters exist, most are even more guilty of the very same criticism of spammable moves or gimmicky design, we just don't realize it because the Melee metagame is well-developed and we're used to dealing with it.

Really, just try pretending Melee top tiers were brand new to the metagame and imagine how it would go. Lasers, shines and Jigg's bair are way safer and more spammable than what PM newcomers have, but it ended up working fine. Fox's Up smash and Up throw->Upair, Jigg's Bair, Jigg's Rest, Sheik's Melee Down throw, Marth's tipper system, Falcon's autocombos and designated finisher, Peach's float, these are all extremely gimmicky and/or overcentralizing aspect of Melee characters, but it also ended up working fine once the metagame grew and people learned the matchups.

I'd still love to see a recovery nerf across the board, though.

 

[Mr.Random]

There are some really well designed characters in PM. Roy, Kirby, Diddy, C. Falcon, Mario (- Fireballs) and there's a few more in there.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Let me go through this systematically and logically:

- Melee charcter lost some of their control mechanisms
This is mostly adressing the one-frame momentum delay and the first airbourne frame aerial jump height reduction (terrible name) which does exist in Melee and not in PM. Both of these changes rather decrease control options in PM. However, PM also (re)introduces other options like the RAR which compensate for this. While they obviously do not work in the same niches and a change in playstyle is needed to optimize your control under the given circumstances, character control options aren't really reduced.
There is some kind of debate if it should stay like it is in PM because some autocancels and double aerials only get possible by taking out the fafajhr and tech skill gets easier with the one-frame momentum delay (also a debate if this is good), but it should at least be considered bringing them back.

For the example of Falco's up-throw I have no explanation, might it be DI/ASDI working different on throws

- Newer characters not as refined
There is always room for optimization but I don't think you could say PM characters are less refined, especially if you consider the PMBR designs them for a competitive surrounding and Nintendo didn't. I think most complaints of this type are dued to being used to Melee characters and not being used to newer characters. Imagine the case where all new characters would be in Melee and Melee characters would be introduced in PM, they would considered being unrefined, having overpowered moves etc...

- Easy recoveries and spammable moves
Recoveries are an issue that the PMBR hasn't faced optimally yet even if they try their best. The change from Melee is that they also want interaction here and not just possible drops by the edgeguarding player.
I was quoting the PMBR's idea of PM earlier:

• A fast-paced game
• with flowing, natural movement
• where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved.
• The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
• Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.
• Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
• The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

and apparently fast-paced, natural movement and advantage for the edgeguarder do collide with less rewarding onstage edgeguarding and a game of interaction which PM tries to be even in the aspect of recoveries.
I am convinced there are solutions (I've already got some ideas) and a few characters might need their recovery being toned down a bit, but the issue gets exaggerated and there are also characters in Melee that have great recovery. Floaties are just better in PM than in Melee and I wouldn't consider it fair nerfing them just because they are floaty and that defines them as being less vulnerable to edgeguarding. There are obviously exceptions where some changes need to appear.

Just to name some of these ideas, because I don't want to speak of possible solutions without really showing at least rudimentary that they exist:
- Some buffs to recoveries are only usable once until landing, like with Marth's side-b (PMBR is already doing this a bit, like with Ivysaur's dair)
- Making some recoveries less disjointed so you can challenge them easier or removing extra hitboxes like Diddy's random barrel
- Speeding some moves up for the sake of fast-pace (Mario or Luigi recovering: less down-b duration, more distance per mash; Diddy's up-b: Charging faster, falling faster; also possible with some of Sonic's stuff, as well as for Snake)
- Probably it would make sense to change all tethers that are not up-Bs to Melee tethers or give them both options but nerf them in an other way.
- A change making tetherers not so comfortable in hanging down there, like putting them into special fall if they get hit there. Alternatively give them a second option to recover directly but nerf the stalling out

I don't think PM has a big problem of spammable moves, I think here it is only players being too bad to punish those moves. One possibility could be that players just aren't aware of certain options being new in PM and therefore can't punish some moves accordingly, making them spammable against them. That doesn't make them spammable in general though. The game is just too complex and rich in options that a move is (almost) unpunishable. There are very few exceptions, some of them even being moves of Melee characters.
If a move is unpunishable in a certain situation, you are probably already in a bad spot that you don't recognize as bad spot (like on a top platform with Fox when he can normally top platform camp but in certain matchups he can get spammed by certain moves).

 

[Renji64]

Well P:M is still work in progress but i can see where he is coming from.

 

[TreK]

"- Some buffs to recoveries are only usable once until landing, like with Marth's side-b (PMBR is already doing this a bit, like with Ivysaur's dair)"
Ivysaur's dair acts exactly like marth's side B. The first use gives you a bump, the second gives you a much smaller one, and all subsequent dairs just halt your vertical momentum.

 

[Jackie Chandler]

I think it's asinine today that he doesn't like PM because Melee veterans differ. Some of those changes were for the sake of balance, something Melee didn't have. It's not like small things need to ruin a game.

This. Sooooo much this. For all its flaws, PM has a gigantic roster of more than viable characters, and that's something you can't really say about Melee. Besides, the balance should only get better from here. I think it's silly to dismiss a work in progress based on a few minor complaints - especially when those complaints are more oriented around unfamiliarity rather than design flaws - and I can't help but feel like that's what PPMD's focusing on in his statements.

Ivysaur's dair acts exactly like marth's side B. The first use gives you a bump, the second gives you a much smaller one, and all subsequent dairs just halt your vertical momentum.

Actually, I'm not sure how Ivysaur's down air works after a double jump, but using a second side B in the air after a double jump will cause Marth to be sucked downward. And using more than one side B outside the double jump causes him to fall at a slower pace, but it doesn't outright halt his momentum. It'd be great if it did though, haha.

 

[Broasty]

People have complained several times before that PM has made the Melee top tiers especially "suck". The common complaint is "I can't follow up move A with move B now!". Of course not, this game has WAY more matchups, you can't expect the same exact move to work on everyone now. To everyone complaining about the recoveries, here's WHY this isn't Melee.

Majority of the players are NOT playing Fox/Falco, so as such, you're not dealing with the crappy Firebird recovery. What about the other characters? Luigi actually has a reliable Side B now and a usable Cyclone. Ganon can now jump out of his Wizard Kick. In other words, the characters that needed the recovery buff, got the recovery buff. But hey, let's take a chance to see what it'd be with the proposed nerfs, at least with Luigi since I know the character pretty well.

Luigi slides more than any character in the game. Due to this, majority of the attacks in the game cause him to slide across the map and is put into a disadvantageous position since he's now on the ledge or off stage. All of his recoveries are extremely predictable and EASILY punished by a good player. I can tell you right now that if one were to take away his recovery, he'd die super early, and would honestly be one of the worst characters in the game. The way to fix that, if the change is a must, is to get rid of his slidy-ness...which completely gets rid of the thing that makes Luigi the unique character he is. All the sudden, Luigi is literally nothing more than a lesser Mario clone because the thing that truly defined him is now gone. It's doubtful anyone would use him by this point.

This is one character, but even that is enough to illustrate the point. PM is the first Smash to ever be made with the competitive scene in mind, and as such, the developers wanted to make a game with a plethora of playing styles (not just the kind seen in Melee) through a diverse, yet balanced cast. The recoveries for the most part (I do agree about Diddy's recovery needed to be rid of the misfire barrel) are required to keep the game's non-melee top tier cast at use.

Don't forget guys, some people prefer the balancing and the pacing that comes from the balancing in Melee, and as such, Melee will never change and will always be available for those who wish to enjoy it. Project Melee was never supposed to be Melee, it was supposed to build upon ALL the Smash games, but with Melee as a prime influence.

 

[Celestis]

The recoveries in this game are the ONE thing i absolutely hate about this game.

Why can Mario recover from the depths of hell but Sheik dies from one hit off stage? (Not to mention Mario is absolutely brain dead ON STAGE but thats another story)

Mario has always had a great recovery. And Sheik's is pretty good too. Not as good, but still good.

 

[Mr.Random]

I think it's a little rude that you're blatantly demeaning the opinions of some people. "PROFESSIONALY!" my ***.

The PMBR do all they can to have people enjoy this game. Make your own damn mod if you don't like it. I'm done with this thread. It's clearly leaning into the favor of those who think the game needs to be made to tend to their every need.

Look you make some good points. The only thing I don't like is the whole "This isn't Melee so forget Melee players opinions." You guys do realize that without Melee this game wouldn't exist? The game is based off of Melee and should take all the good things about Melee and improve on the things that were bad. This game IS supposed to be Melee 2.0 with some new ATs and better character balance.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mario has always had a great recovery. And Sheik's is pretty good too. Not as good, but still good.

Sheiks is mediocre at best, let's not beat around the bush here.

 

[Bleck]

The game is based off of Melee and should take all the good things about Melee and improve on the things that were bad.

Yes. This is what it does.

The problem is with people who don't realize that a lot of what people believe makes Melee 'good' is - surprise - what makes it bad.

 

[Broasty]

Yes. This is what it does.

The problem is with people who don't realize that a lot of what people believe makes Melee 'good' is - surprise - what makes it bad.

Could you please elucidate your point, I'm a little confused.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Look you make some good points. The only thing I don't like is the whole "This isn't Melee so forget Melee players opinions." You guys do realize that without Melee this game wouldn't exist? The game is based off of Melee and should take all the good things about Melee and improve on the things that were bad. This game IS supposed to be Melee 2.0 with some new ATs and better character balance.

Sorry if l came off pissed, I was really tired yesterday.

I understand where you're coming from. I didn't mean to say that we should forget about Melee, but rather that Project M is it's own game now. I get that some certain things have been changed that have an effect on how the game is played, but I just think we need to enjoy PM for what it is. Rather than go the PPMD route and ditch a game because of an up throw.

Anyways sorry again if that was overly defensive.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

"- Some buffs to recoveries are only usable once until landing, like with Marth's side-b (PMBR is already doing this a bit, like with Ivysaur's dair)"
Ivysaur's dair acts exactly like marth's side B. The first use gives you a bump, the second gives you a much smaller one, and all subsequent dairs just halt your vertical momentum.

Thats what I meant, the PMBR already did it in the case of Ivy already and it could be used in even more cases

 

[Mr.Random]

Sorry if l came off pissed, I was really tired yesterday.

I understand where you're coming from. I didn't mean to say that we should forget about Melee, but rather that Project M is it's own game now. I get that some certain things have been changed that have an effect on how the game is played, but I just think we need to enjoy PM for what it is. Rather than go the PPMD route and ditch a game because of an up throw.

Anyways sorry again if that was overly defensive.

No problem. This is discussion. @ Bleck Melee's engine is actually really good. Despite a couple things like ledge occupancy and a couple weird glitches it's pretty smooth. The balance though is bad though with only 9 out of 25 characters being viable.