PPMD's opinion on PM

[Cassio]

Honestly recovering is easier then Brawl because of how many options people have getting off the ledge (by comparison). That being said theres nothing wrong with this, I think the easier thing is to just accept it and strongly approve of moving the game to 3 stocks to account for how much longer people live as a result. Unfortunately poor pikas will be forever bad as a consequence.

Melee players won't ever think PM is better than melee, and if it attempts to be seen as a sequel will just continue to be criticized by PP and other top players who simply view it as an inferior version of their favorite game. Given a choice between melee and a game that is like melee people will choose melee almost every time. Making changes to seek the scenes approval won't lead to anything good. Better off to let the game have its own qualities like recovery differences, etc.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Honestly recovering is easier then Brawl because of how many options people have getting off the ledge (by comparison). That being said theres nothing wrong with this, I think the easier thing is to just accept it and strongly approve of moving the game to 3 stocks to account for how much longer people live as a result. Unfortunately poor pikas will be forever bad as a consequence.

Melee players won't ever think PM is better than melee, and if it attempts to be seen as a sequel will just continue to be criticized by PP and other top players who simply view it as an inferior version of their favorite game. Given a choice between melee and a game that is like melee people will choose melee almost every time. Making changes to seek the scenes approval won't lead to anything good. Better off to let the game have its own qualities like recovery differences, etc.

I both agree and disagree with you... is that possible? I mean not like "some points I agree with some not" but instead "I agree and disagree with x at the same time"

Also, while I agree PM should be it's own game, we really need to do something with these recoveries, it breaks up the pacing of the game and makes jumping off the ledge just to get breathing room viable. Because even if they gimp you, who cares? Free backsies!

 

[chaosscizzors]

not trying to sound rude but it never ceases to surprise me just how quickly this community can change its tune. several months ago i couldn't find more than a handful of people complaining about PMs recoveries and now there's an entire thread full of them. hopefully we can get some recovery nerfs now. that's one of the few things i've desperately wanted to see since idk how long now.

 

[Strong Badam]

PPMD is willing to help, do you think PMBR would listen to his suggestions?

He applied once, we sent him a playtester application test, and then we didn't get anything by the deadline. :/

 

[Deleted member]

Melee's seemingly faster gameplay is the result of many of the most popular/viable characters (Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth/C.Falcon) having speedy playstyles while the rest of the cast is crap and so their slower playstyles are featured much less often. In essence, the reason Melee seems faster to certain people is a direct result of that game's atrocious balancing. This is a problem with Melee, not PM.
And let's not forget about Jigglypuff/Peach/Samus, who resulted in Melee not always being such a fast-paced game. Don't make it seem like slower play is exclusive to PM.

I also cannot stand the complaining about how the Melee top tiers aren't as good. It's like yeah...so? Just because they were top tier in Melee does not mean that they are entitled to top tier status in PM. And regardless, Fox and Falco are still extremely threatening characters in this game with ridiculous attributes and most people still consider them to be top/high tier, Peach and Falcon have actually been buffed, and Sheik lost something dumb and potentially gamebreaking but gained a few extra things such as crawling and Transform not being useless. None of them have received unwarranted nerfs to their movesets. Again, the reason they seem "worse" is due to the increase in viable characters.

And I'm not even going to respond in detail to the "spammable moves" comment because of how laughably hypocritical it is.

He applied once, we sent him a playtester application test, and then we didn't get anything by the deadline. :/

Well screw him then. Obviously PM wasn't important enough for him to make an effort, so it's pretty crappy of him to make it seem like he has all these suggestions but the PMBR just isn't interested in listening.

 

[Mr.Random]

Well screw him then. Obviously PM wasn't important enough for him to make an effort, so it's pretty crappy of him to make it seem like he has all these suggestions but the PMBR just isn't interested in listening.

Woah woah woah. Relax. PP is a really nice guy but has an actual life and a girlfriend and his own personal issues. We have no clue if something came up. No need to say screw him since most of his criticisms are true. I do think the the spammable moves is funny though lol

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not criticizing him as a person. I was criticizing his statement. If he was too busy that's fine, but to claim the PMBR doesn't want his help is stupid. It's like claiming the DMV doesn't want to give you a driver's license while leaving out the small detail that you never finished taking the written test.

And I do not agree that most of his criticisms are true. The recovery issue deserves debate since the community seems to be divided on the issue, but everything else he said is false and/or exaggerated imo. See my post above for reasons

 

[Mr.Random]

I'm not criticizing him as a person. I was criticizing his statement. If he was too busy that's fine, but to claim that PMBR doesn't want his help is stupid. It's like claiming the DMV doesn't want to give you a driver's license while leaving out the small detail that you never finished taking the written test.

And I do not agree that most of his criticisms are true. The recovery issue deserves debate since the community seems to be divided on the issue, but everything else he said is false and/or exaggerated imo. See my post above for reasons

 

[Roxas215]

Mario has always had a great recovery. And Sheik's is pretty good too. Not as good, but still good.

What??? Sheik's recovery is HORRIBLE. Which again i wouldn't mind if 90% of the cast had reasonable recoveries as well. Sheik was always intended to edgeguard

However how is shiek suppose to edge guard any of these OP recoveries???


And Mario's recovery was NEVER as good as it is now.

 

[Bleck]

Like well you know.... not going for the ledge? you really think people won't just go for the ledge like 90% of the time if edgehoging wasn't a thing?

The ledge isn't necessarily that safe, nor am I arguing that it should be - the manner in which people can counter recovering players going for the ledge should involve an action that both requires actual forethought and execution and is actually satisfying to see.

Jumping onto the ledge - even wavedashing back onto the ledge - is neither skillful or satisfying, and I'm consistently baffled that a community that froths at the mouth whenever something that doesn't take skill is effective can be so supportive of edgehogging.

sweet spot ledge snaps and I-frames abuse

What would you say if I said that edgehogging shouldn't be a thing, but neither should either of the things you mentioned?

I didn't mean hypothetically, I meant theoretically. I'm not talking about a specific situation, I'm analyzing a set of mechanics.

I don't think you understand what these words mean.

I just have to add here, that I find it hilarious that you're asking others why it's good, but you won't go to the trouble to explain what makes it inherently bad.

Weren't you that guy who tried to make this the internet's one billion-th meta-discussion about opinions? Why am I even reading this post.

However how is shiek suppose to edge guard any of these OP recoveries???

Your problem, here, is assuming that you have to edgeguard people to win. Edgeguarding is one way that can net you a win, but it's not the only one.

 

[leelue]

Outside of a few characters, mainly with wings or weird walljumps or woops, I don't find recoveries to be all that difficult to edgeguard.

I play sheik a lot. Bair taps. Needle snipes. She can definitely edgeguard just fine.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Your problem, here, is assuming that you have to edgeguard people to win. Edgeguarding is one way that can net you a win, but it's not the only one.

BUT, edge guarding has been a constant feature in smash, and I'm sure people will find ways to do it in SSB4 too. The problem here is that currently, one of the more important features (more not most) is completely irrelevant in PM.


But that's not the problem, the problem here is that when a character with a good recovery is hit off stage, the only thing their opponent can really do is wait for them to land and then resume the battle. (Unless said opponent is ivysaur pit or MK) So this isn't even neutral game we're talking about here! It's blasting wait game!

 

[Mr.Random]

Or maybe we should buff Toon Link @Lunchables lol

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Outside of a few characters, mainly with wings or weird walljumps or woops, I don't find recoveries to be all that difficult to edgeguard.

I play sheik a lot. Bair taps. Needle snipes. She can definitely edgeguard just fine.

Well, I cannot say in any way you're wrong. But may I ask if you have faced Lucas (tether AND psuedo-shine) or Diddy (I agree he can be easy to edgeguard if you play him a lot, but when a Diddy places himself right offstage before he recovers it's really all about guessing. Plus he has those mini projectiles when he gets hit, don't they bother you at times?)

 

[Roxas215]

Your problem, here, is assuming that you have to edgeguard people to win. Edgeguarding is one way that can net you a win, but it's not the only one.

O yea your right. I can always use Sheik's guaranteed throw to kill setups then 90% of the cast has............

O wait...........

It's not just that most of the cast has crazy recoveries. It's that most of the cast has crazy recoveries THAT COMPLIMENTS their amazing on stage presence.

What the hell is Sheik supposed to do?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Weren't you that guy who tried to make this the internet's one billion-th meta-discussion about opinions? Why am I even reading this post.

Nope, I was the guy who said that if you said something was wrong, to explain why it's wrong instead of just making claims. You turned it into "Why should I explain why I think it's wrong? You're wrong, and he's stupid. I don't care if you think it's opinions, I stopped reading."

Perhaps I should have just quoted your example on edgehogging being bad mechanics and responded to that, but I assumed you were smart enough to gather that from the post of yours that I quoted, so I wouldn't need to.

(e.g; edgehogging is a bad mechanic in every conceivable capacity, but people will defend it to the death with reasons that always essentially boil down to "but melee")

Is that not a statement that required an explanation? Without one, it just sounds like an opinion being hurled around like it's a fact. How you don't understand that, I clearly don't get.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Or maybe we should buff Toon Link @Lunchables lol

The only thing about his recovery I think they should buff is the ease at which a TL can Bomb Jump. And yes, I say this because I cannot figure out the timings.

#FixTheGameSoIDon'tHaveToPractice

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Nvm, he fixed it

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Might want to fix that last quote...

I did,

 

[Bleck]

BUT, edge guarding has been a constant feature in smash, and I'm sure people will find ways to do it in SSB4 too. The problem here is that currently, one of the more important features (more not most) is completely irrelevant in PM.

Edgeguarding is definitely an important thing, yes, but I disagree with the idea that every character needs to be good at it. For the same reason, characters having good recoveries and other characters being incapable of edgeguarding them are probably separate issues (the former falling under general design and the latter probably being more of a balance thing).

But that's not the problem, the problem here is that when a character with a good recovery is hit off stage, the only thing their opponent can really do is wait for them to land and then resume the battle. (Unless said opponent is ivysaur pit or MK) So this isn't even neutral game we're talking about here! It's blasting wait game!

One end of the spectrum is basically Melee, where the best characters have overwhelming strengths to make up for their crappy recoveries, and every other character in the game just plain doesn't. The other end of the spectrum is, yeah, a "watch your opponent recover" kind of deal, and that sucks. But I think it's possible for there to be a healthy middle ground - there should be something that you can do to stop your opponent from recovering, but at the same time, it should be something challenging and satisfying to both execute and watch (e.g landing Marth's d-air sweetspot) instead of something simple and boring (edgehogging).

 

[Roxas215]

Edgeguarding has been a staple of the series since day 1. Edgeguarding should ALWAYS be a option.

 

[Rᴏb]

Jumping onto the ledge - even wavedashing back onto the ledge - is neither skillful or satisfying, and I'm consistently baffled that a community that froths at the mouth whenever something that doesn't take skill is effective can be so supportive of edgehogging.

Ehhhh I disagree and I think you're looking at this the wrong way. When you single out certain elements of the game like you just did, you can say anything doesn't take skill. You gotta look at the big picture- the process of getting your opponent offstage and preventing them from getting back on is both skillful and satisfying.

And I'd argue that edgehogging is totally satisfying. When you do it you're either, predicting the ledgegrab, preventing your opponent from recovering after a certain amount of distance due to your strong onstage game, or forces them to recover onto the stage. I'd compare this feeling to stuffing people in basketball; you're preventing progress.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Edgeguarding is definitely an important thing, yes, but I disagree with the idea that every character needs to be good at it. For the same reason, characters having good recoveries and other characters being incapable of edgeguarding them are probably separate issues (the former falling under general design and the latter probably being more of a balance thing).



One end of the spectrum is basically Melee, where the best characters have overwhelming strengths to make up for their crappy recoveries, and every other character in the game just plain doesn't. The other end of the spectrum is, yeah, a "watch your opponent recover" kind of deal, and that sucks. But I think it's possible for there to be a healthy middle ground - there should be something that you can do to stop your opponent from recovering, but at the same time, it should be something challenging and satisfying to both execute and watch (e.g landing Marth's d-air sweetspot) instead of something simple and boring (edgehogging).

That... Is the single smartest and rational thing I've seen you post.

I agree, not all characters must be good at edgeguearding. That is correct. I see currently almost half the cast if not more being able to guard so there's no problems there. So I guess the problem is either:

A. PM tourney goers know nothing about edgeguearding
or
B. Something seriously janky is going on.

So I guess the problem here may very we'll be the players and not the game...

I am thoroughbreadly confused

 

[Scuba Steve]

Ganon can now jump out of his Wizard Kick.

Just an FYI, Ganon got his double jump back after aerial wizkicks in Melee as well. His recovery did receive some minor buffs, though. He can now grab the edge with his side-b, his up-b has a small hitbox on the end of it, and he can grab the ledge from a little further away. The last one helps the most probably because Ganon actually has a sweetspot now and can avoid most attacks from onstage edgeguards when recovering low. Falcon got the same buffs, except for the hitbox on the up-b.

 

[Bleck]

O yea your right. I can always use Sheik's guaranteed throw to kill setups then 90% of the cast has............

O wait...........

I don't understand this sentence.

It's not just that most of the cast has crazy recoveries. It's that most of the cast has crazy recoveries THAT COMPLIMENTS their amazing on stage presence.

What the hell is Sheik supposed to do?

I understand what you're saying, but Sheik also has a pretty good recovery (switch to Zelda and Farore's Wind).

Nope, I was the guy who said that if you said something was wrong, to explain why it's wrong instead of just making claims. You turned it into "Why should I explain why I think it's wrong? You're wrong, and he's stupid. I don't care if you think it's opinions, I stopped reading."

Hey. I didn't say anyone was stupid.

Is that not a statement that required an explanation? Without one, it just sounds like an opinion being hurled around like it's a fact. How you don't understand that, I clearly don't get.

People have always, and will always, speak their opinions as though they believe they are correct (because they do). I didn't provide an explanation with the original statement because it was unwarranted at the time, considering that it wasn't actually what I was posting about. I didn't provide an explanation to the post where I said nothing but "you're wrong" because my post immediately before that was an explanation as to why I thought he was wrong.

Ehhhh I disagree and I think you're looking at this the wrong way. When you single out certain elements of the game like you just did, you can say anything doesn't take skill. You gotta look at the big picture- the process of getting your opponent offstage and preventing them from getting back on is both skillful and satisfying.

"Satisfying" in this context is a social idea. When you edgehog a player, you might be satisfied, but your opponent is likely not (anyone who argues otherwise is likely saying so out of a decade of indoctrination), and I guarantee that nobody watching is going OHHHH ****TTTTTTTTT HE GOT EDGEHOGGEDDDDD with the fervor that they would be if you'd gotten the kill with a spike or a meteor smash or I don't know a reverse aerial Falcon Punch or basically literally anything else

When you do it you're either, predicting the ledgegrab, or preventing your opponent from recovering after a certain amount of distance due to your strong onstage game.

Predicting the ledgegrab is good - it's what you do with the prediction that matters, or more pertinently, how you take advantage of it. What I'm saying, here, is that there should be a way to predict and punish a player trying to (or having to) grab the ledge that takes more than just walking off the ledge.

I'd compare this feeling to stuffing people in basketball; you're preventing progress.

Stuffing people in basketball is something based more around physical attributes than it is skill; you'll be surprised to hear that there's no shortage of people who are fairly contentious about height in basketball. There have been debates raging for years and whether or not there should be height divisions.

 

[Scuba Steve]

rolling over 100% is complete BS tho lol anyone who defends that is definitely pulling a "bcuz melee"

I actually think that PMBR did a small thing to partially address that. I think they made it so you can grab the ledge after about 1/2-2/3 of your opponent's ledge getup animation, whereas in Melee it seemed like you couldn't grab the ledge until the getup animation was almost completely over.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Hey. I didn't say anyone was stupid.

Not in those exact words, but that was the sentiment I was reading. If that was not your intention, then I apologize for assuming.

People have always, and will always, speak their opinions as though they believe they are correct (because they do). I didn't provide an explanation with the original statement because it was unwarranted at the time, considering that it wasn't actually what I was posting about. I didn't provide an explanation to the post where I said nothing but "you're wrong" because my post immediately before that was an explanation as to why I thought he was wrong.

Except that's not what you were saying "You're wrong" to or what you quoted. You specifically quoted him on Edgehogging. I didn't respond to his previous post or yours regarding characters with good recoveries because I thought your point spoke for itself.

The only thing I wanted proof on was the statement that Edgehogging is bad mechanics, because that sounds completely opinionated.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

The only thing I wanted proof on was the statement that Edgehogging is bad mechanics, because that sounds completely opinionated.

Technically, talking about things that are good or bad is almost always a matter of opinion. Were the South good in the American Civil War, or we're they bad? Is Robin Hood good because he's charitable, or bad because he's a thief and is untrustworthy? Is a man who kills a killer bad because he killed, or is he simply saving us from future murders that will be made by said man?

This my friend, is Philosophy.

 

[Roxas215]

I don't understand this sentence.



I understand what you're saying, but Sheik also has a pretty good recovery (switch to Zelda and Farore's Wind).



Hey. I didn't say anyone was stupid.



People have always, and will always, speak their opinions as though they believe they are correct (because they do). I didn't provide an explanation with the original statement because it was unwarranted at the time, considering that it wasn't actually what I was posting about. I didn't provide an explanation to the post where I said nothing but "you're wrong" because my post immediately before that was an explanation as to why I thought he was wrong.

The first comment meant that most of the cast has GUARANTEED throw to kill setups. Sheik doesn't. Which again WOULD BE FINE if she could edgeguard like she's supposed to. However with the Recoveries being so crazy in this game Sheik can't do that either. Now combine that with a bad recovery and all this is going against characters who have BOTH of the things Sheik lacks.


And the Zelda thing is just a bad statement coming from someone who doesn't play sheik. There is almost NEVER a valid reason to switch to Zelda while on stage. And for you to be forced to switch to Zelda just to recover and then be stuck with a character you don't want to play is just bad balancing.

They need to either Give Sheik her tether back or nerf recoveries across the board.

 

[Bleck]

Not in those exact words, but that was the sentiment I was reading. If that was not your intention, then I apologize for assuming.

It was not. Saying that somebody is wrong, or even that they aren't thinking something through all the way, is not necessarily a disdainful comment on their intelligence.

Except that's not what you were saying "You're wrong" to or what you quoted.

Not literally, no, but basically stuff about edgehogging and recoveries and onstage vs offstage presence are all actually the same topic.

The first comment meant that most of the cast has GUARANTEED throw to kill setups. Sheik doesn't. Which again WOULD BE FINE if she could edgeguard like she's supposed to. However with the Recoveries being so crazy in this game Sheik can't do that either. Now combine that with a bad recovery and all this is going against characters who have BOTH of the things Sheik lacks.

Does Diddy have any throw to kill setups? It certainly doesn't feel that way.

And the Zelda thing is just a bad statement coming from someone who doesn't play sheik. There is almost NEVER a valid reason to switch to Zelda while on stage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I said that switching to Zelda and using Farore's Wind was a good way to recover.

You should not be having to recover if you are on stage. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure.

And for you to be forced to switch to Zelda just to recover and then be stuck with a character you don't want to play is just bad balancing.

You can, in fact, switch back to Sheik after switching to Zelda.

They need to either Give Sheik her tether back or nerf recoveries across the board.

Perhaps this isn't the place to be having a discussion about whether or not Sheik is underpowered.

 

[Rᴏb]

The only thing I wanted proof on was the statement that Edgehogging is bad mechanics, because that sounds completely opinionated.

It is completely opinionated. Some people may want a game with deeper offstage game (edgeguarding, recovering, etc.) and that's fine. Personally, I believe a simpler, intuitive offstage game would suit PM better due to how similar it's mechanics are to Melee (I also think it would be easier to implement, but that's beside the point). There is no "better" option of the two, only a preferred one. I think the only thing both sides of the argument can agree on is the game needs more focus in this area.

EDIT: Jesus christ please don't give Sheik a tether.

 

[Bleck]

I don't think so - I like recoveries in PM the way they are (except for Squirtle. **** Squirtle). But I think that the idea that characters who previously focused on gimps and easy, low-percent kills via edgeguarding and edgehogging are somewhat less good now is probably true, and those characters may need new things to bring them back up to par.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

It was not. Saying that somebody is wrong, or even that they aren't thinking something through all the way, is not necessarily a disdainful comment on their intelligence.

Not literally, no, but basically stuff about edgehogging and recoveries and onstage vs offstage presence are all actually the same topic.

Does Diddy have any throw to kill setups? It certainly doesn't feel that way.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I said that switching to Zelda and using Farore's Wind was a good way to recover.

You should not be having to recover if you are on stage. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure.

You can, in fact, switch back to Sheik after switching to Zelda.

Perhaps this isn't the place to be having a discussion about whether or not Sheik is underpowered.

1. No offense, but it isn't that uncommon for people to take it that way
2. I'ma a stay out of this one
3. So one other, out of HOW many?
It's not, it's really easy to gimp and gets you stuck onstage playing Zelda. And it's unsafe to transform onstage and not every Shiek likes to play as Zelda.
4. I don't even
5. Not onstage or in battle you can't
6. This is relevant to our discussion isn't it?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

It was not. Saying that somebody is wrong, or even that they aren't thinking something through all the way, is not necessarily a disdainful comment on their intelligence.

The reason that I assumed that was due to this response to me asking for proof.

Burden of proof? I was responding to a post that argues from the position that recoveries should be challenging just, because.

I don't have to explain myself when responding to people who aren't thinking.

Based specifically on what you'd quoted when I quoted you, that response didn't seem to make sense and it sounded like you were saying "He's being stupid" so I don't have to explain myself.

Not literally, no, but basically stuff about edgehogging and recoveries and onstage vs offstage presence are all actually the same topic.

It can be lumped into the same place, but I was mostly asking why you think the hogging portion is bad mechanics, as increased options on the side of the edgeguarding player doesn't seem to be bad. I'd argue that some characters could have a pretty lackluster punish game off stage and low and that they might rely on hogging in order to grab a kill.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Okay, how about we just try to settle this with sending this thread's points in to the PMBR to have it looked at for consideration for 5.0? Because for me, I feel we're just beating a dead horse.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Okay, how about we just try to settle this with sending this thread's points in to the PMBR to have it looked at for consideration for 5.0? Because for me, I feel we're just beating a dead horse.

PMBR members probably at least glance at every thread. There's no need to bother them directly with things.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

PMBR members probably at least glance at every thread. There's no need to bother them directly with things.

True, but if they say that they will consider or consider to consider our thoughts, we could finally end this discussion.

 

[Bleck]

1. No offense, but it isn't that uncommon for people to take it that way

Commonality of a stance is not often indicative of its veracity.

3. So one other, out of HOW many?

I'm not sure, but I'm at least fairly certain that not every character has a guaranteed throw-to-kill combo.

It's not, it's really easy to gimp and gets you stuck onstage playing Zelda. And it's unsafe to transform onstage and not every Shiek likes to play as Zelda.

What's preferable; getting back to stage and having to transform when you can, or not getting back to stage?

It's true that I don't play enough Zelda or Sheik to know the complete in and outs of each character, but I'd argue that not taking advantage of Zelda's strengths while playing as Sheik because you just don't want to is a poor reason as to why Sheik would possibly need buffs.

5. Not onstage or in battle you can't

I think if you're having difficulties forcing some space between you and your opponent as Zelda, you're not playing Zelda correctly - and I'd go so far as to say that, as long as Zelda and Sheik are basically the same character, knowing how to play as both is probably in the player's best interest.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily a strong recovery, mind you - just that it's better to try and maybe succeed than flat out dying.

6. This is relevant to our discussion isn't it?

I don't believe so.

The reason that I assumed that was due to this response to me asking for proof.

Based specifically on what you'd quoted when I quoted you, that response didn't seem to make sense and it sounded like you were saying "He's being stupid" so I don't have to explain myself.

Okay.

It can be lumped into the same place, but I was mostly asking why you think the hogging portion is bad mechanics, as increased options on the side of the edgeguarding player doesn't seem to be bad. I'd argue that some characters could have a pretty lackluster punish game off stage and low and that they might rely on hogging in order to grab a kill.

Increased options for edgeguarding players are not necessarily a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that any edgeguarding option is, by extension, implicitly good. Some characters do have a lackluster punish game off stage, yes - but the only reason that having a good offstage game matters as much as it does is because of the influence of the Melee metagame. There are other ways, more interesting ways, to make characters better and/or develop a healthier metagame (e.g maybe the PM metagame wouldn't be so focused around offstage capability if walk-off stages were actually allowed).

 

[yohoos]

The ledge isn't necessarily that safe, nor am I arguing that it should be - the manner in which people can counter recovering players going for the ledge should involve an action that both requires actual forethought and execution and is actually satisfying to see.

The ledge is very safe if you know what you are doing. Intercepting a recovery move is near impossible at certain angles when recoveries are sweetspotted. There are other options yes but taking away edgehoging gives the recovering player far more options and control of the situation. It also does require "forethought and execution" because you can opt not to do it if you feel that the recovering player will also choose another option and even when you do execute it you may need to time it correctly for it to even work as you are not entirely safe while edgehoging so the entire mechanic has great depth and produces many situations where both players need to predict and time their moves properly to outdo each other in a very small amount of time.

Jumping onto the ledge - even wavedashing back onto the ledge - is neither skillful or satisfying, and I'm consistently baffled that a community that froths at the mouth whenever something that doesn't take skill is effective can be so supportive of edgehogging.

It is entirely your opinion how entertaining/skillful you think edgehoging is but others including me think otherwise so there's no point for you to keep telling us how crappy it looks because as I have stated before I think it looks just fine.

What would you say if I said that edgehogging shouldn't be a thing, but neither should either of the things you mentioned?

Sure if you removed the current ledge mechanic entirely then removing edgehoging would be no big deal. But then at the same time you are proposing to remove a mechanic that has been a staple of the game for three generations. Even Smash4 has it to some degree I believe although it may be closer to what you want. I don't see you giving suggestions for revamping the system so you saying that edgehoging should be removed is just plain asinine as removing it by itself would ruin the game as it currently is. So NO, edgehoging does not hurt the gameplay and should not be removed.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

snip

I would like to thank you for being so calm Blek. I would like to ask the question however of what if you're playing a character Shiek has a good match up against but Zelda is horrible against? Is it your fault for wanting to play Zeik, or the game's fault for forcing you to change. Also I would like to inform you that even if you were on opposite sides of Dreamland and used Transform with a bunch of fireballs out, the opponent will still get to you.