PPMD's opinion on PM

[Fortress]

>opinions about opinions

 

[vanhuynh16]

PPMD is willing to help, do you think PMBR would listen to his suggestions?

 

[Bleck]

Could you please elucidate your point, I'm a little confused.

As someone already pointed out, saying that characters in PM have "spammy" moves when you main goddamn Falco in Melee is straight up bull****. He's either delusional or he's doing that thing where he uses words in a way that means something different than what they actually mean in order to obfuscate his point to make it more difficult to refute (which, considering that this is the Smash community, is not out of the question).

Also, see my posts in one of the stupid "PM recoveries are too good" thread as to why that particular stance is stupid. If you think recoveries in PM are too good, you're wrong. If you think good recoveries in general are a bad thing, you're wrong.

Melee's engine is actually really good. Despite a couple things like ledge occupancy and a couple weird glitches it's pretty smooth. The balance though is bad though with only 9 out of 25 characters being viable.

Melee's engine has good parts and bad parts, and a lot of people base their opinions of how things should work in Smash Bros. on how it works in Melee regardless of whether or not it's a good or a bad thing (e.g; edgehogging is a bad mechanic in every conceivable capacity, but people will defend it to the death with reasons that always essentially boil down to "but melee").

 

[yohoos]

One of the things I really hate about PM johns is when they are easily applicable to Melee.

We have entered an era where Falco players complain about easily spammable moves.

God save us.

Just because something was wrong in melee doesn't give a green light to have it happen in Project M in fact I would even go to say that it's even more annoying and deserving of criticism in PM because the competitive community has direct influence on how the game turns out. In order for PM to be a better game in the long run we need to criticize as best we can so that it doesn't just end up as a shadow of Melee. Falco may easily have one the of most spammable moves in the game but he also has no recovery and respawns at death percent (juggles for days) as collateral while some PM characters have spammable moves and are still all around solid.

I also have to agree with PPMD on his views with PM recovery balance which I already discussed a bit in the recovery thread. However, small changes to Falco and Fox were necessary for balance and something as trivial as upthrow followups for Falco should not stop any Melee veteran from playing PM. It may not seem as trivial to the rest of us though since PPMD is probably more in tune with the character than most people. I just hope he eventually makes the transition like some of the other Melee Gods.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

I know I'm gonna get a lot of hate for this but, I feel that easy recoveries are okay, as long as they either have a bad on-stage game or they are easy to edgeguard/gimp. A perfect example of this is Ness, he has a straight line trajectory which takes lots of skill to master with a slightly large startup time and shows that trajectory to opponents before Ness can even start that recovery.

Likewise, Diddy has a badly balanced recovery IMO because it is fast to get out and travels at an arc while still being able to recovery from the bottom corners. Plus it even has projectiles that fly out if you try to gimp him! The only redeeming quality is that it is hard to aim.

Then there's Mario who has amazing ground, air and recovery games, and he even gets a projectile!

 

[Bleck]

saying a character should have a bad on-stage game if they have a good recovery is basically saying that a character should literally only be capable of getting back to the stage just to be thrown off of it again and I'm gonna go ahead and say that that's a bad idea

 

[Chesstiger2612]

PPMD is willing to help, do you think PMBR would listen to his suggestions?

I think the PMBR is open for this but might have a slight bias against critique from Melee (only) players for not supporting or even discrediting their work, some of them being not informed well.
PPMD could definitely help because of his great understanding of Melee. Together with the PMBR members being well informed about PM's current mechanics it could be quite a good idea.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Melee's engine has good parts and bad parts, and a lot of people base their opinions of how things should work in Smash Bros. on how it works in Melee regardless of whether or not it's a good or a bad thing (e.g; edgehogging is a bad mechanic in every conceivable capacity, but people will defend it to the death with reasons that always essentially boil down to "but melee").

Edgehogging is a good thing IMO not "because melee" but because it improves the challenge of recovering. Free recoveries are not fun for me and many others, I for one like being able to stop the opponent from recovering in more ways than just attacking them and saying "here, have another up special. The only bad thing about Edgehogging that I can think of is the always-invincible forms that made that Xanadu Kirby vs Diddy GFs so boring.

 

[Bleck]

Edgehogging is a good thing IMO

You're wrong.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

saying a character should have a bad on-stage game if they have a good recovery is basically saying that a character should literally only be capable of getting back to the stage just to be thrown off of it again and I'm gonna go ahead and say that that's a bad idea

True, I poorly executed that post.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

You're wrong.

May I hear why I'm oh so wrong great master of Smash?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

You're wrong.

Burden of proof. If you're gonna throw your opinion around, actually expand upon it and explain why you think it's bad instead of just making claims and then continuing to make that claim.

 

[TechMage299]

I also feel the melee characters lost a bit of themselves along the way, Marth and Sheik especially, Mewtwo and Roy ultra-buffed, I definitely feel Melee is way faster but Project M is something everyone can play, even people who stand no chance in Melee.

My friend thought he was good at Melee until I came over to his house and I annihilated him. Now he occasionally beats me with PM Kirby

 

[Spiffykins]

Melee's engine has good parts and bad parts, and a lot of people base their opinions of how things should work in Smash Bros. on how it works in Melee regardless of whether or not it's a good or a bad thing (e.g; edgehogging is a bad mechanic in every conceivable capacity, but people will defend it to the death with reasons that always essentially boil down to "but melee").

Edgehogging makes getting your opponent off the stage more beneficial, and being off stage more risky. Plus, guessing whether your opponent will go to the ledge or if they're able to go onto the stage requires either a read or enough experience to know how to cover every option, depending on the situation. In theory, not really a bad thing.

rolling over 100% is complete BS tho lol anyone who defends that is definitely pulling a "bcuz melee"

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Burden of proof. If you're gonna throw your opinion around, actually expand upon it and explain why you think it's bad instead of just making claims and then continuing to make that claim.

Plus, me being wrong is an opinion. I was respectful when I initially posted by clarifying it was such with the phrase imo he's just acting as though he's always right and we're just deku scrubs

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I also feel the melee characters lost a bit of themselves along the way, Marth and Sheik especially, Mewtwo and Roy ultra-buffed, I definitely feel Melee is way faster but Project M is something everyone can play, even people who stand no chance in Melee.

My friend thought he was good at Melee until I came over to his house and I annihilated him. Now he occasionally beats me with PM Kirby

The only thing Sheik really lost was her ability to BS almost every character in the game with a 0-death chaingrab, and instead gained a mixup grab in return.

Marth is basically the same character, but slightly better because of new techs introduced from Brawl. The only big difference for him now is that there are more than just Himself, Peach, Fox, Falco, and Puff to trouble him.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

rolling over 100% is complete BS tho lol anyone who defends that is definitely pulling a "bcuz melee"

Well, maybe except Bowser right? Because he's quite easy to gimp and edgeguard so if he's over 100% you're just not killing him right.

 

[GP&B]

IIRC, Marth has better landing lag on Dair and better end lag on DSmash (?)

 

[TechMage299]

IIRC, Marth has better landing lag on Dair and better end lag on DSmash (?)

You're absolutely correct.

Also, Correct me if I'm wrong but Marth's sword feels slightly shorter and can barely tip on Battlefield anymore. It could just be the character sizes too.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Marth's sword feels slightly shorter and can barely tip on Battlefield anymore. It could just be the character sizes too.

I wouldn't know, my dad is the only Marth main I know and he doesn't even know how to Short Hop into Fair

 

[GP&B]

Also I think Spiffy meant the >100% ledge rolls which last the longest of any ledge option. It is the primary offense for being changed in PM because of how mindless it is.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Also, Correct me if I'm wrong but Marth's sword feels slightly shorter and can barely tip on Battlefield anymore. It could just be the character sizes too.

It is just an optical difference

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Also I think Spiffy meant the >100% ledge rolls which last the longest of any ledge option. It is the primary offense for being changed in PM because of how mindless it is.

Oh, I thought rolling over was the "hip n happening" new way to talk about anything over...

I need to get with the times dog.

 

[Bleck]

Burden of proof.

Burden of proof? I was responding to a post that argues from the position that recoveries should be challenging just, because.

I don't have to explain myself when responding to people who aren't thinking.

Edgehogging makes getting your opponent off the stage more beneficial, and being off stage more risky.

Edgehogging makes being off-stage risky, yes - but being offstage should be risky because of what being in the air means the offstage character can and can't do, not because the offstage character has one option and the onstage character has something that counters that option with something that's both easy to do and incredibly lame to watch (which are both equally important when considering the game as a developing e-sport).

Plus, guessing whether your opponent will go to the ledge or if they're able to go onto the stage requires either a read or enough experience to know how to cover every option, depending on the situation. In theory, not really a bad thing.

First of all, it's 'hypothetically', not 'theoretically'.

Second of all, arguing that you have to have experience (read; skill) enough to function properly in this area of the metagame is essentially arguing that edgehogging is a good thing because Melee. Broadly speaking, how something functions has little to do with how something should function.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Burden of proof? I was responding to a post that argues from the position that recoveries should be challenging just, because.

I don't have to explain myself when responding to people who aren't thinking.



Edgehogging makes being off-stage risky, yes - but being offstage should be risky because of what being in the air means the offstage character can and can't do, not because the offstage character has one option and the onstage character has something that counters that option with something that's both easy to do and incredibly lame to watch (which are both equally important when considering the game as a developing e-sport).



First of all, it's 'hypothetically', not 'theoretically'.

Second of all, arguing that you have to have experience (read; skill) enough to function properly in this area of the metagame is essentially arguing that edgehogging is a good thing because Melee. Broadly speaking, how something functions has little to do with how something should function.

Okay I believe both sides have had their fun. Now to end my civility and bring about a torrent of flames.

No, YOU are wrong.

 

[TechMage299]

One more thing to add to PP's statement:
In Melee when I perform a Down-throw -> F-air with Falcon, I get sour spot knee(too early)
In PM, right after I down throw, I'm in a lock where I can't even jump so I F-smash accidentally instead of short-hop Knee.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Burden of proof? I was responding to a post that argues from the position that recoveries should be challenging just, because.

I don't have to explain myself when responding to people who aren't thinking.

You made a statement that is nothing more than an opinion and then saying that you don't have to explain your opinion? And you're the one who was giving me **** for "attempting to make my opinion unassailable", even though I never attempted to do such a thing. That's not hypocritical at all. >.>

You stated that Edgehogging is flat out bad mechanics without going into any detail as to why, asserting it as if you were in some way an authority that should be recognized. You also attempted to cover this by saying that all anyone else ever does is say because Melee and then you seem to decide that their arguments are invalid because you recognize it as if it were them saying "because Melee".

Is it unacceptable that people need to gain experience in order to get past things? Saying that you need to have practice and understanding of obstacles in order to get through them is 'because Melee'? That's one of the dumbest things that I've seen on these boards.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

You made a statement that is nothing more than an opinion and then saying that you don't have to explain your opinion? And you're the one who was giving me **** for "attempting to make my opinion unassailable", even though I never attempted to do such a thing. That's not hypocritical at all. >.>

You stated that Edgehogging is flat out bad mechanics without going into any detail as to why, asserting it as if you were in some way an authority that should be recognized. You also attempted to cover this by saying that all anyone else ever does is say because Melee and then you seem to decide that their arguments are invalid because you recognize it as if it were them saying "because Melee".

Is it unacceptable that people need to gain experience in order to get past things? Saying that you need to have practice and understanding of obstacles in order to get through them is 'because Melee'? That's one of the dumbest things that I've seen on these boards.

This is very much feeling like a Mario fanboy vs CoD fanboy argument...

 

[shairn]

You're absolutely correct.

Also, Correct me if I'm wrong but Marth's sword feels slightly shorter and can barely tip on Battlefield anymore. It could just be the character sizes too.

I'm fairly sure PM battlefield's platforms are higher than Melee's.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

PPMD is willing to help, do you think PMBR would listen to his suggestions?

This is one of those things you just don't let, "slide by."

I'm fairly sure PM battlefield's platforms are higher than Melee's.

I feel like a lot of platforms are the same height as our battlefield.

 

[Bleck]

You made a statement that is nothing more than an opinion

stopped reading here

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

stopped reading here

Of course you did.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

___

Stopped reading there

 

[yohoos]

Edgehoging rules. Challenges people to choose new potentially unconventional options. The ledge is simply too safe atm to take out edgehoging as a viable tactic. Unless people plan on pulling a drastic change to ledge mechanics which I don't see happening because the current ones are working fine. As for entertainment value I think its awesome when someone pulls of a ramen noodle.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Edgehoging rules. Challenges people to choose new potentially unconventional options. The ledge is simply too safe atm to take out edgehoging as a viable tactic. Unless people plan on pulling a drastic change to ledge mechanics which I don't see happening because the current ones are working fine. As for entertainment value I think its awesome when someone pulls of a ramen noodle.

The only good ledge change I can think of is S4's, and even that could be a bit janky.

 

[Bleck]

Challenges people to choose new potentially unconventional options.

Like what?

The ledge is simply too safe atm to take out edgehoging as a viable tactic.

How so?

 

[yohoos]

Like what?

Like well you know.... not going for the ledge? you really think people won't just go for the ledge like 90% of the time if edgehoging wasn't a thing?

How so?

sweet spot ledge snaps and I-frames abuse

 

[Spiffykins]

First of all, it's 'hypothetically', not 'theoretically'.

I didn't mean hypothetically, I meant theoretically. I'm not talking about a specific situation, I'm analyzing a set of mechanics.

Not only are you wrong, but the fact that you bothered to try to correct me on something so trivial has just ensured that I will never take anything else you say seriously.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Like what?

How so?

I just have to add here, that I find it hilarious that you're asking others why it's good, but you won't go to the trouble to explain what makes it inherently bad.

 

[Rᴏb]

When you can throw out multiple recovery options so easily while making it impossible for certain characters to reliably punish them, I'd say that is a problem. With that said, the question becomes: so, do we buff edgeguarding, or nerf recoveries? I'd prefer if recoveries got nerfed because it would create more gameplay based around gimps and it would also add recoveries to the huge list of Melee aspects found in PM, which I feel would make PM feel more consistent as a whole. I'm not saying "recoveries should be bad because Melee", I'm saying recoveries should lend themselves to the rest of the gameplay aspects in PM, which happen to mainly be borrowed from Melee. I don't like how being offstage isn't a huge threat anymore, man.