Mid and late Bair at various drifts, slight forward laser, and laser dash back dash in(to Nair) are all quite good as well.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
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PAWN1
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2018
- Messages
- 46
https://youtu.be/WMpUymqNkag
5:00 - Is this early bair part of a mix up on Peach’s falling aerial where you stuff it preemptively vs let her fall and whiff punish?
5:09 - Here it looks like you’re reacting to the start up of Peach’s up B. Is that correct? How do you go about handling Peach below stage in this position?
5:36 - This bair from Peach is to beat the full hop aerial -> land on top platform, right?
5:39 - Dash -> WD in to take space and threaten an approaching aerial/laser, then dash away short hop and react -> turnaround laser. Am I getting this sequence correct?
5:41 - You set up this laser on tech in place/roll away, then dash back to cover a potential roll in. Then react and cover tech in place/roll away with grab, correct?
5:00 - Is this early bair part of a mix up on Peach’s falling aerial where you stuff it preemptively vs let her fall and whiff punish?
5:09 - Here it looks like you’re reacting to the start up of Peach’s up B. Is that correct? How do you go about handling Peach below stage in this position?
5:36 - This bair from Peach is to beat the full hop aerial -> land on top platform, right?
5:39 - Dash -> WD in to take space and threaten an approaching aerial/laser, then dash away short hop and react -> turnaround laser. Am I getting this sequence correct?
5:41 - You set up this laser on tech in place/roll away, then dash back to cover a potential roll in. Then react and cover tech in place/roll away with grab, correct?
Yeah more or less.
Sort of. I knew she wouldn't go during invincibility, and I knew her float is 3 seconds. So I knew pretty much when it would go off, but it's also true I reacted.
Pretty much. Wants to get off the platform safely before shield dropping came around.
Dash WD in takes space and can threaten an approaching aerial. but generally I tend to do it when I want to take stage from a bit farther than an actual approach distance but it could still threaten an aerial and also I can definitely threaten out of it. It's a weird mixup I wouldn't recommend using that often, if at all. And yes.
That's pretty much right yeah. Though I may not have grabbed tech roll away, and I also know Armada puts up his shield a lot which makes that more likely to do.
Sort of. I knew she wouldn't go during invincibility, and I knew her float is 3 seconds. So I knew pretty much when it would go off, but it's also true I reacted.
Pretty much. Wants to get off the platform safely before shield dropping came around.
Dash WD in takes space and can threaten an approaching aerial. but generally I tend to do it when I want to take stage from a bit farther than an actual approach distance but it could still threaten an aerial and also I can definitely threaten out of it. It's a weird mixup I wouldn't recommend using that often, if at all. And yes.
That's pretty much right yeah. Though I may not have grabbed tech roll away, and I also know Armada puts up his shield a lot which makes that more likely to do.
PAWN1
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2018
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMpUymqNkag
21:35 - When Peach is on top platform, the mix up goes that if Peach comes down or off of the top platform, full hop bair/other aerial to top platform beats it, but loses to Peach full hopping, which is why you dash forward and threaten the bair but stay grounded, then try to win the position from there. Is this correct?
21:36 - Full hop in place drift forward to bait Peach coming in with float aerial -> fast fall underneath dj dair. This bait worked because Peach was trying to hit you landing on top platform? Or just landing on the ground?
21:54 - Here you seem very prepared for the approaching aerial and shine immediately after the run off laser hits. This is the other part of the mix up that beats the falling Peach aerial that targets the move away -> drop through platform turnaround laser, right?
22:09 - Here after the shine pressure you short hop nair at her after she short hops away OOS and manage to get under her to up tilt. This also would cover her aerialing in a lot of cases since the start up would take too long, correct?
21:35 - When Peach is on top platform, the mix up goes that if Peach comes down or off of the top platform, full hop bair/other aerial to top platform beats it, but loses to Peach full hopping, which is why you dash forward and threaten the bair but stay grounded, then try to win the position from there. Is this correct?
21:36 - Full hop in place drift forward to bait Peach coming in with float aerial -> fast fall underneath dj dair. This bait worked because Peach was trying to hit you landing on top platform? Or just landing on the ground?
21:54 - Here you seem very prepared for the approaching aerial and shine immediately after the run off laser hits. This is the other part of the mix up that beats the falling Peach aerial that targets the move away -> drop through platform turnaround laser, right?
22:09 - Here after the shine pressure you short hop nair at her after she short hops away OOS and manage to get under her to up tilt. This also would cover her aerialing in a lot of cases since the start up would take too long, correct?
May depend on which way I'm facing and also which way she drifts but overall yeah not a bad rule. Being centered under the platform gives me the most space to attack, and also fakes an approach. It achieves two goals.
The Fair was meant to catch me landing on the ground I guess.
Well Armada just keeps Fair'ing which has the slow startup so runoff laser catches it and then makes for an easy shine confirm.
Only if she reacted late, but again Fair is slow. Would depend on reaction time and move choice I guess. Bair wouldn't have led to anything for him though.(he reacted late because very off balance and having to decide quickly)
The Fair was meant to catch me landing on the ground I guess.
Well Armada just keeps Fair'ing which has the slow startup so runoff laser catches it and then makes for an easy shine confirm.
Only if she reacted late, but again Fair is slow. Would depend on reaction time and move choice I guess. Bair wouldn't have led to anything for him though.(he reacted late because very off balance and having to decide quickly)
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R3_
Smash Cadet
Not necessarily a falco question but I wanted to know more about playstyles. I always hear that "Melee offers the player so many ways to play" but the only playstyles I'm aware of are aggressive and defensive lol. I feel like this is probably why I still don't know what my own playstyle is so I'd love to hear more about this
Even within offensive and defensive there is variance. And sometimes you will be offensive in one position and defensive in another.
You can play slower or faster, closer or farther, playing for more guaranteeds or more outplays, more tense and more loose, and so on. You can describe playstyles like you can describe people. So if you think about who you are as a person you often can gain some insight into who you are as player, though sometimes people play differently in Melee than how they seem irl.
You can play slower or faster, closer or farther, playing for more guaranteeds or more outplays, more tense and more loose, and so on. You can describe playstyles like you can describe people. So if you think about who you are as a person you often can gain some insight into who you are as player, though sometimes people play differently in Melee than how they seem irl.
PAWN1
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2018
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- 46
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDs_3ubpDM
0:55 - Why go for a high dair here after landing the platform drop turnaround laser? Were you trying to beat take laser dash attack?
1:13 - After a dash away -> dash in nair timing mix up to beat a move in place, you react during the nair to the fact that Peach rolled. Recognizing you’re at frame advantage, you do a high nair to beat out her immediate aerial post roll. Is this correct?
1:15 - This is an interesting full hop dair. It looks like it beats Peach dropping through the platform, but could you elaborate on it?
1:40 - Why move up to top platform here when Peach is drifting downwards?
1:43 - What would you do here after the roll instead to beat this aerial? It looks like there's not enough space to dash away and try to punish Peach coming down, so maybe immediate push forward?
0:55 - Why go for a high dair here after landing the platform drop turnaround laser? Were you trying to beat take laser dash attack?
1:13 - After a dash away -> dash in nair timing mix up to beat a move in place, you react during the nair to the fact that Peach rolled. Recognizing you’re at frame advantage, you do a high nair to beat out her immediate aerial post roll. Is this correct?
1:15 - This is an interesting full hop dair. It looks like it beats Peach dropping through the platform, but could you elaborate on it?
1:40 - Why move up to top platform here when Peach is drifting downwards?
1:43 - What would you do here after the roll instead to beat this aerial? It looks like there's not enough space to dash away and try to punish Peach coming down, so maybe immediate push forward?
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Looks like I'm just being reckless, but you could argue that if I were closer it would've been great to catch Peach coming OOS with that.
Looks like in frame by frame I'm doing it more to beat out maybe later aerial or later reaction but otherwise pressure shield or WD back.
Looks like it's mostly to pressure and also catch DJ. Of course, Peach does just FC/DJC there and doesn't get hit and you would take pressure in most situations, but I was correct that Armada would want to DJ.
Being dumb probably, but sometimes it can be good to give them a free opening to lure them in.
Immediate Nair may work, FH, mayyyybe dash back SH late Bair depending on where she spaces and how she times the Fair.
Looks like in frame by frame I'm doing it more to beat out maybe later aerial or later reaction but otherwise pressure shield or WD back.
Looks like it's mostly to pressure and also catch DJ. Of course, Peach does just FC/DJC there and doesn't get hit and you would take pressure in most situations, but I was correct that Armada would want to DJ.
Being dumb probably, but sometimes it can be good to give them a free opening to lure them in.
Immediate Nair may work, FH, mayyyybe dash back SH late Bair depending on where she spaces and how she times the Fair.
R3_
Smash Cadet
Not Falco specific but how do I enjoy analysis more, a lot of the time I do analysis it just makes me wanna play and by the end of game 1 I just kinda get bored. What are some ways to help me enjoy analysis more?
Maybe changing up your focus will help. Look at things from new angles, or pretend you're your opponent sometimes, or make predictions about how things will go and then compare your guesses to what actually happened. I think forcing it is not the answer though it should be fun or at least interesting. You may want to ask around or experiment.
AnonymousID
Smash Cadet
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- Aug 4, 2015
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- 57
Hey PP, you really emphasize focusing on sharking characters like marth and shiek when they're in the air, but what are some of the actual mix ups that's at play? Like marth can side-b / aerial / doublejump / airdodge / mixup ff timings and drift so it seems pretty challenging as I don't think I can just hit them just on reaction. Also on stages with platforms, the time they're in the air is a lot shorter making it much harder. It feels like a 50/50 where I either get a back air (which resets the situation?) or it just resets to neutral so I'm not sure how good sharking is.
Also are there situations where you're guaranteed to get a hit off of them falling and the opponent has no meaningful mix ups in the air? I'm thinking of like if the opponent burns their double jump or something.
Also are there situations where you're guaranteed to get a hit off of them falling and the opponent has no meaningful mix ups in the air? I'm thinking of like if the opponent burns their double jump or something.
This is a complicated question. You can launch someone on DL/BF and especially at low percent you may not get a followup off of a "free" hit or you may not get one at all. Ideally of course, you want to shine landings if they land on a platform or Bair them at mid or high percents usually(especially to push them offstage). DJ allows you to FF earlier than FH which can be useful sometimes.
Also, you need to manipulate them and also be in good position. Being just in range to Bair them but they have to guess leaves a lot of depth for you. You can also SH and DJ at a variety of effective timings but they would have to swing around when they think you will come down. Marth can be in a lot of lag after side B, or Sheik can be locked into an aerial which can help you find your punish windows. It helps to get between them and center, and also to get on a platform so you gain height and they have less time to react if you do jump.
If the opponent burns their DJ then they are quite likely to get hit if they are very high up. Smaller stages or FD also make this much easier to hit.
Also, you need to manipulate them and also be in good position. Being just in range to Bair them but they have to guess leaves a lot of depth for you. You can also SH and DJ at a variety of effective timings but they would have to swing around when they think you will come down. Marth can be in a lot of lag after side B, or Sheik can be locked into an aerial which can help you find your punish windows. It helps to get between them and center, and also to get on a platform so you gain height and they have less time to react if you do jump.
If the opponent burns their DJ then they are quite likely to get hit if they are very high up. Smaller stages or FD also make this much easier to hit.
PAWN1
Smash Cadet
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDs_3ubpDM
2:09 - This fox trot to take space and react-> dash jc grab was just to cover Peach landing in the corner right? Peach’s ledge options are limited so I think it would make sense for her to land here.
2:11 - This looks really awkward but also intentional? I don’t think I have a good idea of what’s happening here. I know that you change what you do depending on what you think your opponent is reacting to, so these turnarounds are meant to get a reaction since Armada is primed to react to the turnaround?
2:16 - This first dash away is to get to the ideal spacing just outside of Peach’s threat range of falling aerial. Then there’s a dash in -> dash away to get Peach to come down with a falling aerial. Then there’s a dash in -> dash away -> dash in grab to punish a move in place like jab or immediate shield grab after the falling aerial. Is this all correct?
2:27 - Can you talk a bit about how you go about edge guarding Peach? Here it looks like you threaten full hop bair by full hopping out and drifting back twice. The first time, Peach doesn’t bite but the second time you get a response with the fast fall for a moment. Then you get underneath her and rising dj bair her. What can she do about the rising dj bair and what would your response be to that?
2:37 - This approaching nair is meant to catch Peach full hopping, but the little dash away -> dash in that Peach does before her full hop lets her get around this. Is that correct?
2:09 - This fox trot to take space and react-> dash jc grab was just to cover Peach landing in the corner right? Peach’s ledge options are limited so I think it would make sense for her to land here.
2:11 - This looks really awkward but also intentional? I don’t think I have a good idea of what’s happening here. I know that you change what you do depending on what you think your opponent is reacting to, so these turnarounds are meant to get a reaction since Armada is primed to react to the turnaround?
2:16 - This first dash away is to get to the ideal spacing just outside of Peach’s threat range of falling aerial. Then there’s a dash in -> dash away to get Peach to come down with a falling aerial. Then there’s a dash in -> dash away -> dash in grab to punish a move in place like jab or immediate shield grab after the falling aerial. Is this all correct?
2:27 - Can you talk a bit about how you go about edge guarding Peach? Here it looks like you threaten full hop bair by full hopping out and drifting back twice. The first time, Peach doesn’t bite but the second time you get a response with the fast fall for a moment. Then you get underneath her and rising dj bair her. What can she do about the rising dj bair and what would your response be to that?
2:37 - This approaching nair is meant to catch Peach full hopping, but the little dash away -> dash in that Peach does before her full hop lets her get around this. Is that correct?
Yeah I expected that as well I guess.
LOL I forgot about this. Yeah I moved in to force GUA/apply some pressure and then out in case of roll or to dodge GUA. Didn't react to GUA at all which is insane but I walked back in which got a roll.
Mostly correct, but there are extra dashes earlier on which you did not mention. Some mindless movement, or most generously waiting/setting up an approach if he waits(but this is unlikely given other scenario).
So I think the only thing I did in this set correctly is edgeguard iirc which I don't think Peach can escape, at least not using up-B anyway. You can loop FH drift back and if she comes in she can't change direction easily so she has to move out early and so you reset. Eventually she has to take it. She sometimes doesn't drift back as far as she should in order to come in and play a mixup as you land, and you need to drift out DJ Bair her instead of fall back to the level then. SH out DJ Bair is especially easy to hit because it's faster.
No, I just attacked from too far away. It was so far that he approached in that way because he knew it was a safe distance. If you frame by frame our movements we mostly stayed in the same place even if you wanted to say the decision was delayed.
LOL I forgot about this. Yeah I moved in to force GUA/apply some pressure and then out in case of roll or to dodge GUA. Didn't react to GUA at all which is insane but I walked back in which got a roll.
Mostly correct, but there are extra dashes earlier on which you did not mention. Some mindless movement, or most generously waiting/setting up an approach if he waits(but this is unlikely given other scenario).
So I think the only thing I did in this set correctly is edgeguard iirc which I don't think Peach can escape, at least not using up-B anyway. You can loop FH drift back and if she comes in she can't change direction easily so she has to move out early and so you reset. Eventually she has to take it. She sometimes doesn't drift back as far as she should in order to come in and play a mixup as you land, and you need to drift out DJ Bair her instead of fall back to the level then. SH out DJ Bair is especially easy to hit because it's faster.
No, I just attacked from too far away. It was so far that he approached in that way because he knew it was a safe distance. If you frame by frame our movements we mostly stayed in the same place even if you wanted to say the decision was delayed.
PAWN1
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2018
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDs_3ubpDM
2:39 - This full hop shine -> turnaround reaction point is interesting. Lets you set up a laser on Peach on the ground if it misses and can set up a punish if it hits. How would you continue the punish if the shine hit? If she DI's left then maybe land on top platform then short hop fair from top platform to side platform, and DJ up air land on top platform for no DI?
2:53 - Can you talk about about how you refresh ledge invincibility like this when Peach is below the ledge? Is there a timing mix up here where if Peach up B’s at the right time it hits you before you get back to ledge? Or do you react and drift onto stage?
3:04 - During the approaching laser you react to the roll and dash away -> full dash in and react. You do that dash sequence because you feel confident Peach won’t lunge in after the roll. The dash sequence lets you react to Peach’s full hop, and you dash away and set up a laser on her falling aerial. You’re too far away to get a true followup after the laser dash away -> dash in nair to punish a move like jab in place after Peach takes the laser. Doing it frame by frame, Armada did indeed press A asap after taking the laser. This made me realize that Peach can do take laser nair like how Marths take laser fair, especially after looking at the frame data (Peach’s nair comes out frame 3??). Is this all correct?
3:07 - Is this short hop -> late DJ back -> laser and land on the side platform to set up on Peach take laser full hop floating?
3:16 - It looks like Armada didn’t DI or DI’d up on this shine on top platform. What was he DI’ing for then, or what is the other half/part of the DI mix up here?
2:39 - This full hop shine -> turnaround reaction point is interesting. Lets you set up a laser on Peach on the ground if it misses and can set up a punish if it hits. How would you continue the punish if the shine hit? If she DI's left then maybe land on top platform then short hop fair from top platform to side platform, and DJ up air land on top platform for no DI?
2:53 - Can you talk about about how you refresh ledge invincibility like this when Peach is below the ledge? Is there a timing mix up here where if Peach up B’s at the right time it hits you before you get back to ledge? Or do you react and drift onto stage?
3:04 - During the approaching laser you react to the roll and dash away -> full dash in and react. You do that dash sequence because you feel confident Peach won’t lunge in after the roll. The dash sequence lets you react to Peach’s full hop, and you dash away and set up a laser on her falling aerial. You’re too far away to get a true followup after the laser dash away -> dash in nair to punish a move like jab in place after Peach takes the laser. Doing it frame by frame, Armada did indeed press A asap after taking the laser. This made me realize that Peach can do take laser nair like how Marths take laser fair, especially after looking at the frame data (Peach’s nair comes out frame 3??). Is this all correct?
3:07 - Is this short hop -> late DJ back -> laser and land on the side platform to set up on Peach take laser full hop floating?
3:16 - It looks like Armada didn’t DI or DI’d up on this shine on top platform. What was he DI’ing for then, or what is the other half/part of the DI mix up here?
AnonymousID
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2015
- Messages
- 57
How do you not get your wavedash timings jumbled up despite playing two characters?
Maybe DJ laser into Nair(Fair too weak at this percent unless I could get 3 hits maybe?), maybe don't laser and instead let her aerial and Bair it and she might drift away or something and set up an edgeguard? It's kinda weird because she'd be slightly closer if hit and that changes a lot, in addition to her action out of stun. No DI might actually be harder to cover, maybe Uair yeah or just take the free Bair damage and pressure her after that unless she holds in on Bair.
So initially you grab just as she could up-B, then you can always threaten her with drift in shine and you can fake with up-B or dj back to edge. Her float is slow and must start early and can't shift directions easily so this is manageable. You can also wait a bit longer if you see her come in and worry about your invincibility because she's most likely gonna pop up-B then since she has no choice. I'd say test it so you can feel it out, both sides.
I could have actually punished this Fair looks like, but yeah the concern about take laser Nair I guess is an issue. Dash back aerial in helps me hit him for always mashing jab or at least get shield pressure and stage position and such.
Nah, the SH in DJ away was because I knew I was too far away to actually hit him and somewhat expected movement away or a FH there. That laser covers that FH kinda but also if he wants to jump up to hit me coming down, and also serves as a good bait for him to come in like he did.
It's possible he misjudged which side he was on, or was just nervous. He was quite nervous in the other instances you linked me, which is something that happens more often when we play. This may be related to that, or it may be that he did not want to DI a Dsmash out, or thought I'd miss that shine, etc.
Part of is a lot of practice and telling myself to slow down with Falco and speed up with Marth. Eventually I just need to remind myself slow or fast and my hands readjust. Sometimes in situations where I would WD with one I may deliberately not WD with the other if there are any concerns but generally even that doesn't matter. Also I practice switching between them in friendlies to ensure I can handle the switch fine.
PAWN1
Smash Cadet
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- Jun 2, 2018
- Messages
- 46
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDs_3ubpDM
3:30 - What were you dash dancing for in this situation? To beat Peach setting up a full hop aerial?
3:37 - Was this backflip -> fall through top platform -> dj meant to bait out an attack to stuff a laser like dash attack?
3:30 - What were you dash dancing for in this situation? To beat Peach setting up a full hop aerial?
3:37 - Was this backflip -> fall through top platform -> dj meant to bait out an attack to stuff a laser like dash attack?
I guess to keep momentum going, to threaten how and when I get off, and perhaps subconsciously I expected that Uair.
It has many goals. One is to do what you said, but the DJ in helps me ambiguously threaten him staying back there and also covers if he FH'd instead of DA'd.
It has many goals. One is to do what you said, but the DJ in helps me ambiguously threaten him staying back there and also covers if he FH'd instead of DA'd.
R3_
Smash Cadet
Hey, its been a bit.
How do I deal with Fox's short hop aerials/shine pressure, I feel like the better Fox players in my region do this a lot vs me and I don't understand what to do against it
How do I deal with Fox's short hop aerials/shine pressure, I feel like the better Fox players in my region do this a lot vs me and I don't understand what to do against it
If they are doing mid or late Nair, then after their shine you should shine them. If they use Dair, then shining vs their shine is good usually since it's kind of a coin flip if they get their shine out or not. You can also shield DI away, which is especially helpful when quite close to the edge. Usually after one rep of pressure they will have to do a pretty heavy mixup or back off so you can also benefit from waiting a bit sometimes.
R3_
Smash Cadet
Thank you heaps, just a couple questions though.
Thanks again, this is really helpful stuff
Are you talking about on hit here or on shield? Also what would I do against sh rising nair > shine, can i shine oos between the moves?
Why do they have to do a heavy mixup in that situation, could you give an example of a heavy mixup in that scenario?
Thanks again, this is really helpful stuff
On shield. And yes you can shine between high Nair and shine.
The reason is because a rep of pressure pushes you pretty far and they usually don't have the element of surprise between neutral to pressure now. So they have to try and get closer or back up a little then get closer again, that sort of thing.
The reason is because a rep of pressure pushes you pretty far and they usually don't have the element of surprise between neutral to pressure now. So they have to try and get closer or back up a little then get closer again, that sort of thing.
Hey PP big fan here who sometimes pops into your streams
I had a couple questions pertaining to mentality in melee that I’m sure you’ve heard a billion times before but I’m looking for new answers. Specifically, I’ve noticed that I generally feel overly anxious when I play out tournament sets with players seeded/ranked below myself, to the point where it feels almost distracting/difficult to focus on the game. The underlying cause I think is that I’m afraid to lose to someone I shouldn’t because it would “set back” my progress/improvement in melee. This fear causes me to struggle to focus during the game and makes it even harder for me to perform well vs the lower seed. My question is what concrete action can I take to specifically improve my mindset in those situations? Would really appreciate any advice you could offer
The second question I have is sort of the opposite of the first one. Against higher seeded players, if I lose, I often find myself feeling a little more apathetic than I would think I should be if I want to truly improve. I suspect that it may partly have to do with how stressful earlier parts of the bracket are for me vs lower seeds, so when I get to the higher seeded part of the bracket, I feel almost relieved and don’t really continue to push myself mentally as hard as I should. So my question here is: what actions can I specifically take to improve my mentality vs higher seeded players so I can stay hungry to beat them?
Again really appreciate the help in advance
I had a couple questions pertaining to mentality in melee that I’m sure you’ve heard a billion times before but I’m looking for new answers. Specifically, I’ve noticed that I generally feel overly anxious when I play out tournament sets with players seeded/ranked below myself, to the point where it feels almost distracting/difficult to focus on the game. The underlying cause I think is that I’m afraid to lose to someone I shouldn’t because it would “set back” my progress/improvement in melee. This fear causes me to struggle to focus during the game and makes it even harder for me to perform well vs the lower seed. My question is what concrete action can I take to specifically improve my mindset in those situations? Would really appreciate any advice you could offer
The second question I have is sort of the opposite of the first one. Against higher seeded players, if I lose, I often find myself feeling a little more apathetic than I would think I should be if I want to truly improve. I suspect that it may partly have to do with how stressful earlier parts of the bracket are for me vs lower seeds, so when I get to the higher seeded part of the bracket, I feel almost relieved and don’t really continue to push myself mentally as hard as I should. So my question here is: what actions can I specifically take to improve my mentality vs higher seeded players so I can stay hungry to beat them?
Again really appreciate the help in advance
Why does losing set back your progress? Aren't you setting yourself back by worrying about it? It has nothing to do with them, and everything to do with you. It may make other people think lesser of you, but if you know your own skill what difference does that make? That can always be changed again with another strong performance. This is called "playing not to lose" and is a common issue. You must remember that when you played your best you likely played in such a way that kept you from thinking about all of this and/or allowed you to focus on the fun of the game. Thinking of these things is a distraction and the game should be all that matters. If you find yourself thinking about results before the match, immediately stop yourself and think only about your gameplan in the matchup. However, if this is too strong of a focus and you feel you need to think about it, then you should consider why it bothers you so much to fail, what you tell yourself when it happens, why it matters what other people think, and begin making peace with those things. That helped me, and has helped others.
Vs higher seeds, think of them as opportunities to learn and also chances to prove and challenge yourself. You should bring your best because you know they will push you. You can challenge those apathetic thoughts like you did the previous ones if needed.
Vs higher seeds, think of them as opportunities to learn and also chances to prove and challenge yourself. You should bring your best because you know they will push you. You can challenge those apathetic thoughts like you did the previous ones if needed.
Okay so I just wanna preface this with my sincerest gratitude for you taking time to respond to my ramblings, it really means a lot.
Regarding the first question, I really like the idea of taking time before a match to focus on a gameplan, but yea as you alluded I do think I end up often experiencing a ton of anxiety despite this. I ended up researching a bit into why I might feel this way and I think I’ve discovered a goldmine of psychological research on why a person might experience anxiety the way I am. Needless to say I think I have a lot to work on but I’m excited to implement some changes to how I approach both melee and life now.
On a completely unrelated note, I was wondering if you might be interested in potentially revealing some of that “cheap stuff” vs marth you’d mentioned on stream
Regarding the first question, I really like the idea of taking time before a match to focus on a gameplan, but yea as you alluded I do think I end up often experiencing a ton of anxiety despite this. I ended up researching a bit into why I might feel this way and I think I’ve discovered a goldmine of psychological research on why a person might experience anxiety the way I am. Needless to say I think I have a lot to work on but I’m excited to implement some changes to how I approach both melee and life now.
On a completely unrelated note, I was wondering if you might be interested in potentially revealing some of that “cheap stuff” vs marth you’d mentioned on stream
I'm very glad you took the advice to heart and have a new path! Best of luck to you =)
One thing you can mess with vs Marth is the "perfect" middle height laser which hits Marth running, jumping, and you can of course jump over the PS'd laser. I don't think this is insanely useful but it has been discussed. What I find much better is drifting out after grabbing edge to Bair Marth or regrab edge, fighting close to him to force him to swing so you can hit him, and patience. The latter two can be more complicated than they sound, but the more you resist full approaching laser the better I believe.
One thing you can mess with vs Marth is the "perfect" middle height laser which hits Marth running, jumping, and you can of course jump over the PS'd laser. I don't think this is insanely useful but it has been discussed. What I find much better is drifting out after grabbing edge to Bair Marth or regrab edge, fighting close to him to force him to swing so you can hit him, and patience. The latter two can be more complicated than they sound, but the more you resist full approaching laser the better I believe.
InBOUNDHD
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 40
Hi pp glad to see you having fun with your streams
Do you have any tips on how to punish marths that try to do certain variations of sh nair when you are at roll distance. I often get dashbacked grabbed either trying to whiff punish it after i see the ac sh nair during my dashback from a laser, get hit out of my dashback or i get hit out of the air when i try to laser.
Do you have any tips on how to punish marths that try to do certain variations of sh nair when you are at roll distance. I often get dashbacked grabbed either trying to whiff punish it after i see the ac sh nair during my dashback from a laser, get hit out of my dashback or i get hit out of the air when i try to laser.
Thanks man! =)
If they do high Nair you can just shine oos it, but that's not a reliable punish. Sometimes you can Bair their landing but this isn't common and they have to full drift in. I suggest lasering their landing and either Ftilt'ing if you hit a low laser and they're close since it can true combo, or early Dair'ing through them to hit their head if they shield or beat them doing pretty much any move(if you're pretty close), or dashing back to observe and maybe then punish what they do. You can also wait after lasering. If you need to get farther back than a dash, just full retreating SHL and that will get you out of the way. If you don't have room, then rolling really early may help, but you may find going to edge or dash FH'ing over Marth to work better.
If they do high Nair you can just shine oos it, but that's not a reliable punish. Sometimes you can Bair their landing but this isn't common and they have to full drift in. I suggest lasering their landing and either Ftilt'ing if you hit a low laser and they're close since it can true combo, or early Dair'ing through them to hit their head if they shield or beat them doing pretty much any move(if you're pretty close), or dashing back to observe and maybe then punish what they do. You can also wait after lasering. If you need to get farther back than a dash, just full retreating SHL and that will get you out of the way. If you don't have room, then rolling really early may help, but you may find going to edge or dash FH'ing over Marth to work better.
InBOUNDHD
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 40
Hi pp. Whats your opinion on dealing with low percent fox when he takes laser and dashes forward to do a running shine, or just running shine at low percent. I feel like doing an aerial in place at this percent still lets fox cc it and open me up, and sometimes doing a laser at certain spacings allows fox to just shine me out of the air, so I end up offstage.
Back up and laser, Dair through him, retreating late/mid spaced Bair, move forward and shine or retreating Dair. Those should all help.
InBOUNDHD
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 40
Hello again pp. Hope you had a great time at genesis this year.
Recently I have been having trouble reacting to the spacing between me and my opponent with the proper option when i do a sh approaching laser. This is especially true when I play against marth. I noticed that this was a bad habit of mine and I was wondering if you have any tips/practice routines on how to maybe internalize reacting to spacing when shooting a laser for solo practice.
https://youtu.be/zN4iGCIl-pc?t=255 Here I react incorrectly with a walk shine since i think he is closer
https://youtu.be/__e8viEDuTs?t=447 I struggle to react to these types of spacings where I hestitate to decide if im close enough to go for an approaching aerial to cover any immediate in place options marth has or if i have to do a laser approach instead to catch dash back
Recently I have been having trouble reacting to the spacing between me and my opponent with the proper option when i do a sh approaching laser. This is especially true when I play against marth. I noticed that this was a bad habit of mine and I was wondering if you have any tips/practice routines on how to maybe internalize reacting to spacing when shooting a laser for solo practice.
https://youtu.be/zN4iGCIl-pc?t=255 Here I react incorrectly with a walk shine since i think he is closer
https://youtu.be/__e8viEDuTs?t=447 I struggle to react to these types of spacings where I hestitate to decide if im close enough to go for an approaching aerial to cover any immediate in place options marth has or if i have to do a laser approach instead to catch dash back
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Don't understand first problem. Plan proper reactions and react as you land from laser, not after laser has hit or missed them.
Looks like he dashed away then maybe even DI'd away? Maybe RC/JC shine would hit, or you can Dair grab or pressure mixup or just grab. Awkward spacing.
Why would you laser to catch dash back? Just SH after him and aerial or just let him move away and cover him staying in place with SH in some so you can at least pressure if he stays or take stage and laser if he dashes back. Big guesses like that don't help you when you have frame advantage to react.
Looks like he dashed away then maybe even DI'd away? Maybe RC/JC shine would hit, or you can Dair grab or pressure mixup or just grab. Awkward spacing.
Why would you laser to catch dash back? Just SH after him and aerial or just let him move away and cover him staying in place with SH in some so you can at least pressure if he stays or take stage and laser if he dashes back. Big guesses like that don't help you when you have frame advantage to react.
InBOUNDHD
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 40
Ah, I guess my misunderstanding was that I was under the impression that I was suppose to be reacting to after the laser has hit/missed.
Just for clarification, because I have frame advantage I should be predicting what option Marth is going to do after taking the laser and then reacting/confirming with my own option once Marth picks his, since this situation is essentially a 50/50 mixup of whether I cover 1) dash back or 2) some in place option/take stage option, right?
And if that is true, these short hops that you are suggesting are in a sense preemptive in order to let me confirm what options I am trying to predict (ie short hopping preemptively and then doing the aerial to react to Marth dashing back), correct?
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You can react if it hits if you're close, but you need to already be moving toward them usually to confirm the shine. Big swings like that approaching laser are usually unnecessary risks. It may help to look up how much frame advantage you get from laser.
More or less. As you yourself said, you can be preemptive in certain ways, but with big swings it tends to work less effectively.
More or less. As you yourself said, you can be preemptive in certain ways, but with big swings it tends to work less effectively.
Hey pp I’m back again with yet another vague question that I was hoping you’d have some insight on:
So over the years that I’ve competed, I’ve twice now experienced an interesting phenomenon. What happens is that I play someone in bracket (usually someone lower seeded than myself; not sure if this might be important here) in a best of 3 set. I end up losing the set in a close match. Afterwards (like literally the same day), I play friendlies with this person that I lost to and win every game in the session and it’s not particularly hard or close.
This very specific occurrence has only happened twice in the 5 years that I’ve competed in melee, so it’s not a frequent problem for me in any way, but after the first time it happened to me a few years ago, I’d assumed it was just a bizarre phenomenon that probably wouldn’t happen again. Now that I’ve experienced it once more, I’m concerned there might be an issue here I’m not seeing.
I will say that aside from those 2 instances, I’ve never lost a set to anyone in tournament that I wouldn’t lose the majority of friendlies to (at least on that day). However, I have noticed that, in general, given the same opponent, I often perform better against them in friendlies in comparison to when we play in tournament, so there might be an issue there too (granted it has also occasionally happened that I end up beating someone in tournament that I would likely lose the majority of friendlies to but that has only really happened twice as far as I can remember).
Some ideas I have as to why this type of loss happens for me personally are:
1) my opponents might just have enough new strategies/tricks I haven’t seen to catch me off guard long enough to win a bo3 which is all you really need anyway
2) I’m performing poorly in tournament for any number of reasons (this may be tied to the mentality issues we discussed previously; something else worth mentioning is that I rarely get to attend tournaments for personal reasons so I have very little tournament experience also)
3) They perform better in tournament and/or worse in friendlies for any number of reasons
4) they might be sandbagging
My question would be:
do you have any insight on why I might be losing tournament sets against people that I end up doing very well against in friendlies immediately after?
Thanks again in advance for your wisdom
So over the years that I’ve competed, I’ve twice now experienced an interesting phenomenon. What happens is that I play someone in bracket (usually someone lower seeded than myself; not sure if this might be important here) in a best of 3 set. I end up losing the set in a close match. Afterwards (like literally the same day), I play friendlies with this person that I lost to and win every game in the session and it’s not particularly hard or close.
This very specific occurrence has only happened twice in the 5 years that I’ve competed in melee, so it’s not a frequent problem for me in any way, but after the first time it happened to me a few years ago, I’d assumed it was just a bizarre phenomenon that probably wouldn’t happen again. Now that I’ve experienced it once more, I’m concerned there might be an issue here I’m not seeing.
I will say that aside from those 2 instances, I’ve never lost a set to anyone in tournament that I wouldn’t lose the majority of friendlies to (at least on that day). However, I have noticed that, in general, given the same opponent, I often perform better against them in friendlies in comparison to when we play in tournament, so there might be an issue there too (granted it has also occasionally happened that I end up beating someone in tournament that I would likely lose the majority of friendlies to but that has only really happened twice as far as I can remember).
Some ideas I have as to why this type of loss happens for me personally are:
1) my opponents might just have enough new strategies/tricks I haven’t seen to catch me off guard long enough to win a bo3 which is all you really need anyway
2) I’m performing poorly in tournament for any number of reasons (this may be tied to the mentality issues we discussed previously; something else worth mentioning is that I rarely get to attend tournaments for personal reasons so I have very little tournament experience also)
3) They perform better in tournament and/or worse in friendlies for any number of reasons
4) they might be sandbagging
My question would be:
do you have any insight on why I might be losing tournament sets against people that I end up doing very well against in friendlies immediately after?
Thanks again in advance for your wisdom
Melonsismyusername
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2019
- Messages
- 153
How do I effectively counter falco? (Any tips specifically for dk would be nice)
The more common reason I find for this is usually tourney nerves/restrictions under pressure and such. This will likely get easier as you work more on your mental game.
Falco loses when you are close and he is in shield/doesn't have a laser out. So if you sit just outside of his Dair in place range and if he's shielding you're good, or if you can punish an approaching aerial well then you also have some advantage.
Use vertical play to avoid lasers, since they control the horizontal quite well.
R3_
Smash Cadet
What do you think about dair > utilt at like 10-30% where you have enough hitstun to reliably combo into it but before knockdown %'s does shine almost always have better combo potential in these scenarios or is utilt better as a mixup to read DI away and combo into fsmash? I ask this because I almost never see utilt used like this even though I feel like it has some potential, is it that overshadowed by shine?