PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Sometimes you know where/when you're losing or what your opponent is doing but you don't know how to beat it. Sometimes you guess how to counter it/the mixup layers and have to keep readjusting since your initial idea isn't so strong. So you can still know what happened but lose.

Well I'm not telling you how to play or not. You can use more FH/DJ/platforms if you want to aggro/predict Peach going into the air more and that isn't necessarily a bad way to play, but it is something I know way less about. I was just responding to your ideas saying that can be fine.

Yeah most people go to applications, which I believe is a mistake. Why does a dash back dodge DA? Because dash is quick, moves you farther away, and it's also useful in that you can shield or hold down or jump out of it with good reactions/predictions. So I listed properties and options out of the tool. That's the type of stuff you want to be thinking about.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Is there ever a reason to analyze characters other than my main? Of course different characters have different weaknesses which requires different perspectives on how to deal with them which can then be applied back to my own main. But I feel like the time investment in that is not worth analyzing characters that aren't your main.

Also, I've found it a lot easier to shadowbox in my head without the game in front of me. When visualizing like this it's a lot easier for me to picture what the other person is does and how I should respond to that. But then is this even shadowboxing if I'm not controlling my own character? In theory it should actually be easier to do this when you are playing against an invisible opponent. Maybe because of the way the camera focuses on only my character? Or having a still cpu on the screen interferes with my visualization?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It can be worthwhile in some cases, and since Fox has some similar moves to Falco you can sometimes take some things from Fox players in this case, but it's probably not the highest priority.

Visualizing is still really strong and a very underused and underrated training mechanic. It's probably easier since you haven't practiced up to that point yet plus the inputs needed to play will distract your mind. So for now visualization of situations and ideas is probably better.

 

[Nils.]

Can some frame master explain to me why the later hits of dair often give more hitstun than the early hit? This is easily tested vs a Falcon bot in 20XX set to hold shield. I set him to grab on hit and did laser > shine in order to hit him out of grab.

First I tried hitting him with one shine and one late early hit dair and observing his hitstun when he hit the ground, and I found out that almost all the time at 40-ish % when you hit him with an early hit dair he landed on the ground with almost NO lag and got his shield up immediately. (My friend has grabbed out of my combos countless times because of this).

Then I did the same thing again but instead I hit Falcon with a later hit of dair after shining him. As far as I noticed he was always in a fair amount of lag after landing when done correctly and I was able to combo him without a problem.

The messed up thing about this is that it's so counter intuitive. I've been doing late, early hit dairs until just a few months back when I noticed this. You would think that inputing the dair as late and low as possible would be the best, but no! It seems you should combo fast fallers similar to how you combo floaties at higher percents, hitting them with dat high dair.

Anyway, I'm just interested in why this is.

 

[Yort]

It can be worthwhile in some cases, and since Fox has some similar moves to Falco you can sometimes take some things from Fox players in this case, but it's probably not the highest priority.

Visualizing is still really strong and a very underused and underrated training mechanic. It's probably easier since you haven't practiced up to that point yet plus the inputs needed to play will distract your mind. So for now visualization of situations and ideas is probably better.

What can I do to cover this recovery?
https://youtu.be/EuMbJKjA0UE?t=53
When peach is in her her up b she has the ability to drift, fast fall, land on stage, and fast fall to ledge. In this clip, she gets near a certain spacing close and above me and I try to hit with dj bair, which he fast falls through.
How can I reliably pressure the going to ledge versus going on stage? I have tried to do empty sh backwards off stage dj bair near the ledge when she gets close but if she goes on stage and this doesn't work i'm often in a bad position.

https://youtu.be/EuMbJKjA0UE?t=86
When I get a laser at a long range, I often try to immediately come in with an approaching laser. In this clip however, peach immediately jumps out of the first laser and does a float dair, which beats the movement after my approaching laser.
How can I deal with this?
I imagine slight approaching laser after the first laser is powerful.
I have also tried to just wait and dash dance after the first laser.
The problem I have with this is that now peach is floating and I am on the ground, when I would have preferred to keep her on the ground.
In this case, where I kind of let her float and observe her float > approaching dair, should I wait and try to hit her after her dair? Or pressure her landing?
What do you think about approaching laser > uptilt when I see her jump float, as she often hits me for my movement after the approaching laser and doesn't directly punish the laser.

What do you think about laser jab when peach is at high percent, would you not do it anymore as it's too risky or would you find uses for it still? I find myself getting punished for it and the risk is just too high, but I am probably using it poorly.

https://youtu.be/w36c0cKYzfc?t=356
How might I go about pressuring this recovery, where the peach is floating about platform height off the stage.
I often default to attempting empty sh > dj bair to hit her for floating forward. I also like to dash dancing and try to grab her fair if she fairs.
How do I go about pressuring the potential fast fall to ledge?
Druggedfox tells me to empty sh near the ledge, and if you read her fast fall to ledge do sh off stage fast fall double jump bair. What do you think of this?
Also, in this clip, could I have directly punished the dair he did during this float if I reacted in time?
I have been trying to do this but have gotten naired for it before.

https://youtu.be/c7K6Mcni640?t=184
This was excessive dash dancing right? What do you think you were waiting for there and why would you not just laser on the ground and then play from the laser, do you think it was to avoid him powershielding or jumping over the laser, or is there some other reason you had to wait on the ground vs grounded peach?

Why do you think you were dash dancing excessively at sktar?

https://youtu.be/c7K6Mcni640?t=226
When doing the full hop platform lasers, are you doing it mainly in anticipation of peach doing full hop > float?
Do you ever full hop double laser or dj single laser onto platform when you actually observe her in her float?
I imagine it would take too long to get up there with lasers when you process that she is actually in the process of floating, but I am not sure.

What do you think about 20xx for testing specific timings?
With shadowboxing, you have more variation to think about and predict what happens next and practice the nuances of the situation, but with 20xx replays you can learn the specific timings and drill them out which I find difficult to do in game.

Thanks.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Hey PP, I’m in my last two weeks of the semester and I only have ~30 minutes of melee time per day. How should I be using this time? Right now I’m thinking of either taking a break or just using this time to keep my movement on point. What do you think?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What can I do to cover this recovery?
https://youtu.be/EuMbJKjA0UE?t=53
When peach is in her her up b she has the ability to drift, fast fall, land on stage, and fast fall to ledge. In this clip, she gets near a certain spacing close and above me and I try to hit with dj bair, which he fast falls through.
How can I reliably pressure the going to ledge versus going on stage? I have tried to do empty sh backwards off stage dj bair near the ledge when she gets close but if she goes on stage and this doesn't work i'm often in a bad position.

https://youtu.be/EuMbJKjA0UE?t=86
When I get a laser at a long range, I often try to immediately come in with an approaching laser. In this clip however, peach immediately jumps out of the first laser and does a float dair, which beats the movement after my approaching laser.
How can I deal with this?
I imagine slight approaching laser after the first laser is powerful.
I have also tried to just wait and dash dance after the first laser.
The problem I have with this is that now peach is floating and I am on the ground, when I would have preferred to keep her on the ground.
In this case, where I kind of let her float and observe her float > approaching dair, should I wait and try to hit her after her dair? Or pressure her landing?
What do you think about approaching laser > uptilt when I see her jump float, as she often hits me for my movement after the approaching laser and doesn't directly punish the laser.

What do you think about laser jab when peach is at high percent, would you not do it anymore as it's too risky or would you find uses for it still? I find myself getting punished for it and the risk is just too high, but I am probably using it poorly.

https://youtu.be/w36c0cKYzfc?t=356
How might I go about pressuring this recovery, where the peach is floating about platform height off the stage.
I often default to attempting empty sh > dj bair to hit her for floating forward. I also like to dash dancing and try to grab her fair if she fairs.
How do I go about pressuring the potential fast fall to ledge?
Druggedfox tells me to empty sh near the ledge, and if you read her fast fall to ledge do sh off stage fast fall double jump bair. What do you think of this?
Also, in this clip, could I have directly punished the dair he did during this float if I reacted in time?
I have been trying to do this but have gotten naired for it before.

https://youtu.be/c7K6Mcni640?t=184
This was excessive dash dancing right? What do you think you were waiting for there and why would you not just laser on the ground and then play from the laser, do you think it was to avoid him powershielding or jumping over the laser, or is there some other reason you had to wait on the ground vs grounded peach?

Why do you think you were dash dancing excessively at sktar?

https://youtu.be/c7K6Mcni640?t=226
When doing the full hop platform lasers, are you doing it mainly in anticipation of peach doing full hop > float?
Do you ever full hop double laser or dj single laser onto platform when you actually observe her in her float?
I imagine it would take too long to get up there with lasers when you process that she is actually in the process of floating, but I am not sure.

What do you think about 20xx for testing specific timings?
With shadowboxing, you have more variation to think about and predict what happens next and practice the nuances of the situation, but with 20xx replays you can learn the specific timings and drill them out which I find difficult to do in game.

Thanks.

I explained this to Bones above, but just FH backwards and let her fall down as you drift back to stage until you can SH Dair or SH DJ Dair her.

Laser Utilt is one way to handle this, but if it's Dair I think you can shine OOS it? Slight laser in is good too, and maybe fadeaway (AC) Bair if you react quickly enough. If you want to avoid her float, you have to shoot her grounded from closer. You can laser/aerial her FC aerial if you somewhat predict it, or you backwards SH drift in a little which would give you a pretty easy reaction out of a dash in fake for example.
I like laser jab, but you want to make sure to use other ways to kill so Peach doesn't expect it. It's something to not use as a staple but a good option imo.

I use reverse SH for this one. You can also use the side platform to WD/SH off of and Bair/DJ Bair as her float runs for a little bit since that goes farther than attacking from the ground. Peaches often don't commit early, so you can just wait it out on stage then go for a SH out DJ Dair sometimes and hit as she starts to be forced to drift in. You just have to watch for airdodge or early aerials. This leads to a fun addition of runoff DJ Dair now, and faking that allows you to falling laser Peach at this height. You can also do this in reverse with Bair threats and turnaround laser. It's a fun position.

That DD....was actually kinda interesting. I was doing a good job of not letting Peach push into me there so it wasn't so bad. I shouldn't have traded and been more willing to consider defense after being so threatening, but it wasn't necessarily bad because of how I used it here. I wouldn't recommend this type of thing to most players though.

I over-DD'd at SKTAR because my mind was not right. Everything is connected.

Yeah in anticipation of float, but you can argue it's great for encouraging her approach anyway. I don't tend to react to her float with laser, as she could hit me by then more likely and doing early lasers allows me to land earlier iirc. Sometimes I react with laser though to keep them honest.

20XX is great for testing a lot of stuff and making it real to people. It cannot go into the infinite variation that's possible, but it is a great way to introduce some good mixups and give you actual in-game feedback on how it goes.

Hey PP, I’m in my last two weeks of the semester and I only have ~30 minutes of melee time per day. How should I be using this time? Right now I’m thinking of either taking a break or just using this time to keep my movement on point. What do you think?

Movement is fine. Some analysis is good. It's about what you want most out of the game right now.

 

[Bones0]

Can some frame master explain to me why the later hits of dair often give more hitstun than the early hit? This is easily tested vs a Falcon bot in 20XX set to hold shield. I set him to grab on hit and did laser > shine in order to hit him out of grab.

First I tried hitting him with one shine and one late early hit dair and observing his hitstun when he hit the ground, and I found out that almost all the time at 40-ish % when you hit him with an early hit dair he landed on the ground with almost NO lag and got his shield up immediately. (My friend has grabbed out of my combos countless times because of this).

Then I did the same thing again but instead I hit Falcon with a later hit of dair after shining him. As far as I noticed he was always in a fair amount of lag after landing when done correctly and I was able to combo him without a problem.

The messed up thing about this is that it's so counter intuitive. I've been doing late, early hit dairs until just a few months back when I noticed this. You would think that inputing the dair as late and low as possible would be the best, but no! It seems you should combo fast fallers similar to how you combo floaties at higher percents, hitting them with dat high dair.

Anyway, I'm just interested in why this is.

If you hit someone into the ground and they don't have high enough stun/velocity/KB (I don't understand what exactly, unfortunately), they will land and only have 4 frames of normal landing lag. I call this "ground cancelling" and it is the same mechanic behind ASDIing down into the ground which is often conflated with crouch cancelling. Crouching reduces the stun you take and can make you actionable sooner, but normally holding down helps you because you get launched into the air then land back on the ground immediately by ASDIing down, and that's how people are actionable so soon.

As far as hard dair vs. soft dair, I don't really understand it. I've been told that hard and soft dair are basically the same strength and what actually determines the KB is the timing relative to your shine since the longer you wait after shining to dair, the less vertical knockback your dair fights against.

Personally, I just waveshine and immediate dair asap and it seems to always work fine. KJH and I both tested this kind of dair on Fox and he needs 2 SDI inputs in order to ground cancel, and I'd imagine Falcon works similarly. Maybe T tauKhan can elaborate on his previous post about KB stacking, but the person who last corrected me on this issue, specifically about the different dair strengths, was "sp99" in the Falco discord.

 

[Nils.]

Thanks man, the thing about it depending on how long you wait to hit them after you shine them makes sense.

 

[tauKhan]

If you hit someone into the ground and they don't have high enough stun/velocity/KB (I don't understand what exactly, unfortunately), they will land and only have 4 frames of normal landing lag.

It's the other way round, if they *have high enough kb speed* (more than 0.5 units when hitting ground in hitstun), then they'll land cancel. With less than 0.5 units, they continue hitstun on ground. The mechanic is kinda nonsense .

Hitting dair early makes it hard for the opponent to get land cancel. As you said, there's more shine kb upwards early on, which works against the kb speed the dair adds. You also hit them high when you hit early, so it takes more time for them to land, and kb speed from after the dair wears down every frame.

 

[Teatra]

I'm sorry I'm posting here when I'm only probing for an answer from one person (unrelated to the thread). If I can, I'll delete it afterwards. Dr Peepee , do you use "conversations" (the Smashboards feature)? I had a couple questions, but I could rewrite it a bit and post it here if that's necessary.

If you do, I've already sent it, so you could just view it and respond there— but here is alright aswell.
Well, thank you! Sorry to everyone else.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I generally don't answer PMs on here since I want answers to be public to help the most people I can. I understand there can be more private types of questions, but those often are more energy-intensive for me as they invariable are more emotional and I need to be more myself to answer them. I am just doing my best with what I have, so I hope you can ask what you need to ask here.

 

[Teatra]

Okay! Cool! That's totally alright. I'll keep to the more basic questions then.
I (and many others, as you've doubtlessly heard many times above)— really love your neutral-centric approach to the game. I'd like to do something similar (although it's obviously not my intention to be a clone of sorts, I'd like to emulate it in a sense), but I have a concern. I play both Peach and Falco. Although Falco can obviously keep up and perform the tasks required at a fast pace (I mean— obviously, you play him), Peach is a significantly slower character. I feel like her lack of speed inherently makes it more difficult to play in a manner that doesn't require a more read-heavy style. I feel like she has some beneficial albeit completely underutilised/(and some unknown??) options for playing closer to opponents/pressuring opponent's shields— but regardless, even with these options— I feel like she likely needs to pick up a different style because she can't utilise many of the same methods to try and take control of the match. Maybe that's because it's hard for her to be more reactionary. Does she needs to mix in more CC baits or play in a more read-heavy manner? Again, I'm unsure. I need to both get better and experiment a lot more before I can come to any true conclusions, but do you have any thoughts on this? Maybe this is just has a simple solution— No. (or, the less likely option— Yes.)

I guess, to keep it short, one last quick question (which may not be all that quick to answer, but hopefully). I know your health has likely been a major point of study for you.. Do you have any good advice about diet, and whatnot (for optimal performance, also soundslikearobot)? I know it's kind of vague, but I'd like to hear anything you have to say on the subject.

Also sorry for questions that you've likely heard before. I ask because it's difficult to find a lot of specific answers to questions I may have. There's no truly great ways to search back unless you simply search through everything.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You'll need more reads with Peach since she's a worse character, but you can set up more ways to gain information. What does a dash/float in and move back give you? That sort of thing is applicable with any character. Peach can still be more aggressive though.

I won't go too detailed, but things like eating heavier earlier in the day if at all, eating light/not at all throughout competing during the day can be quite useful as I've seen, read, and seen in others. Eating lighter is with stuff like greens and nuts or smaller portions of meat for example.

 

[Teatra]

You'll need more reads with Peach since she's a worse character, but you can set up more ways to gain information. What does a dash/float in and move back give you? That sort of thing is applicable with any character. Peach can still be more aggressive though.

I won't go too detailed, but things like eating heavier earlier in the day if at all, eating light/not at all throughout competing during the day can be quite useful as I've seen, read, and seen in others. Eating lighter is with stuff like greens and nuts or smaller portions of meat for example.

Yeah, I see. And thank you.

 

[FlockOfFlames]

So, I've been thinking lately about how Falco is so very neutral-based, and thus imo not very consistent in applying his strengths, considering how fast he dies if he messes up said neutral.

I think this trait is really exacerbated against Marth, cause I feel that you absolutely need to mixup attacks and defense to keep him in check more than any other matchup and he's one of the char that kill Falco the fastest on any error. You have to constantly outsmart him in every interaction and it's both exhausting and very discouraging to know that, if you don't, you just die. It's actually the case against most top tiers, the gameplan is to win the most inconsistent thing in Melee multiple times in a row and don't really have the luxury to be wrong.

I'm well aware that this is balanced by the fact that Falco has one of the best kit in the game to actually win neutral, but at the end of the day it's still neutral game and dependent on who's the smartest or read the other person better.

So, I don't doubt Falco's ability to win or placement in the tier list, I just doubt his consistency. I need faith

EDIT: To clarify no I didn't get beaten by Marth or being salty or anything, it's just something Im randomly thinking about and also wonder if it's the reason ppl don't play that much Falco at higher levels (instead of "Falco can't do it" which is ridiculous). RIP Mango @ Summit :'(

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco has a tool that lets him dominate neutral if used well. However most Falcos use it lazily or not much at all. Mango doesn't laser Marth that much even and it's required to spam Marth basically. Things like doing two lasers in place quickly slows the opponent down a lot, so you can start there to establish some consistency.

Basically, top level isn't using them/his kit well right now, so don't worry about it. Just do your best for yourself.

 

[xxgungodxx]

I usually get a ton of success with shooting marth, esp games where I shutdown their first few responses to re-establish control.

Most of the marths I play with like to take lasers into stuff or head to the side platform to try to get falco to back off a bit. Once those options get stopped, they start running into the corner.

When they're cornered, as a start I'll shoot them to try to get them to fight into falco hitboxes, or if I think they're going to try to wait for me to do something pre-emptive, I'll move in and do laser grab/shine grab or something for more direct pressure + get them off stage.

I think falco actually has alot of advantages in this matchup that get overlooked. He's very good at preventing marth from advancing (which is probably why you usually see marth in the corner alot against him), and once marth gets cornered, he's great at getting him off stage. Punishes on marth are also very strong, especially if you end them with smashes/throws that get them off stage/in the corner.

 

[Twinkles]

nah lasers are dumb fk u m8

 

[Twinkles]

really tho, been kinda struggling against powershielding marths, i just don't know what to do

i understand i gotta shoot the gun more anyway, just kinda hard cuz sometimes i get dash attacked or grabbed after marth gets a powershield

any idea how i gotta play around that?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can PS back, especially with ZPS. You can also shoot lower so you can jump over the PS'd laser and attack. If you shoot low enough then it's pretty hard/basically impossible to in place or dash up PS iirc. You can also shoot then get on a side platform and fall down with another laser or just play that position as Marth WDs in if you want.

 

[Twinkles]

thanks for the advice pp

 

[xxgungodxx]

Low lasers + empty hops are fun to do v PS. I'm usually more scared of getting a dair/nair ps'd in the corner though.

Sometimes it's funny to just stop shooting for a little bit, to see if they get stuck in shield. Then you can kind of just run in and beat them up.

 

[kaptinkillem]

How do you get fox off the platforms and make him interact with you? I do terribly against foxes who avoid the ground and stay on plats. I feel like I lose so much stage and dont gain much if I try to aim a laser to hit the platform and they're very easy to avoid.

 

[FlockOfFlames]

For PS and Marth:
https://ibb.co/n2P1B7
Stolen from https://smashboards.com/threads/kadanos-perfect-marth-class-advanced-frame-data-application.337035/

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you get fox off the platforms and make him interact with you? I do terribly against foxes who avoid the ground and stay on plats. I feel like I lose so much stage and dont gain much if I try to aim a laser to hit the platform and they're very easy to avoid.

You can attack from the top platform, FH/DJ above to catch them moving away or fall down with spaced Bair/Dair/laser to pressure them, and then mix that with lasers and SH(and DJ out of it or not) as well as dash in to give your ground game more threats against them.

For PS and Marth:
https://ibb.co/n2P1B7
Stolen from https://smashboards.com/threads/kadanos-perfect-marth-class-advanced-frame-data-application.337035/

Ah okay so it is one frame. No Marth I've played can hit that low laser PS without doing dash back PS even if it is possible.

 

[xxgungodxx]

I usually like to call fox's movement to the platform with a shine/dair/bair. It usually catches them off guard, and you can get a quick combo, or sometimes a kill off of it. (Esp on side plats) If I have a super hard read on them, I'll just waveland on the platform they want to jump to and grab.

When he's already there, I try to dj or fj to the other platform, so I can get two lasers out. If I'm really feeling campy, then I'll follow that up with a isai-drop laser and repeat.

You could also threaten the center with u-tilt/bair to try to catch him jumping in. Bair/u-tilt also work if you slip under them expecting a shield drop. Sometimes I'll try to dair him jumping off the platform to get the knockdown.

Something funny you could do is: slip under the side plat to try to get them to go to center, then f-smash their landing if they jump to the center/bair to the center. It's very unexpected, and you'll sometimes catch them with horrendous DI, and it can get an early kill/edgeguard setup.

 

[Barron]

Thoughts on Mango's Falco at Summit?

 

[Dr Peepee]

He made good use of WD/DJ Bair to catch Hbox jumping away, and also did great finding jab upsmash or CC upsmash or upsmash oos kills.

Edit: He's still bad against Marth/floaties because he won't laser though.

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee

1
Can you explain what you mean by laser spamming marth?
Are you saying there's less room to mix up dash dancing inbetween lasers in this MU?
Which match ups do you need to spam laser and what exactly do you mean by spam is what i'm getting at.
Do you think the way you played the MU before vs pewpewu / mew2king you weren't lasering enough? I didn't think you were laser spamming really in those sets but I guess I don't know what I'm looking for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZKx_VtnrHc the pokemon game is an example.

Are you saying you need to be more patient with lasers in these MUS or that you need to use more in general?
I imagine these things are not mutually exclusive.

How would being more patient vs marth look?

Can you describe the difference between long dash back > turn around laser in place and slight dash back > laser in place?
I imagine it as the slight dash back laser in place not really having much influence with the slight dash back because it's less likely people will react to it, while the long dash back laser in place is intentionally wanting them to respond to dash back (think you might retreat) and then to observe how they respond and then laser.

2
When doing analysis do you ever meticulously look at every single dash / action to see what they might have threatened and influenced? Just how slow do you take it? When I do your analysis process which you've listed elsewhere it definetely takes me a very long time which is a good thing but just wondering on how it goes for you.

https://youtu.be/c7K6Mcni640?t=184
Do you mind explaining exactly why this dash dance was so interesting.
Can you break down exactly how you didn't let peach push into you?
What type of defense would you consider here instead of the offense? Maybe a bair instead of the nair trade?
How were you being so threatening? Was it every dash forward that was so threatening in regards to nair or fair?
Why do you not recommend this thing to most players
When you were both on the ground moving, why not just laser to establish a laser and move from there?
I'll do my own analysis on it but interested in your thoughts as to why this dash dance was purposeful.

Do you plan on learning ZPS powershields back at people in the future? I figured jumping over lasers was more reliable and you would be more prone to doing that instead.

Can you explain the utility of doing 2x laser in place to me and how that might influence the opponent? I understand that it stuffs movement forward and slows people down but i'd like to know more as to why you think it's so important versus marth for example.

I have spent a long time working on basic mix ups as you said. I learned a bunch of the timing nuances in-between laser > aerial laser > dash back > approaching aerial and other things like laser > approaching laser > dash back etc, it was very useful and i'm still working on it, so thank you for that. I have definitely had better understanding and results playing melee recently with you, bones, and druggedfox's advice. Just figured i'd throw it out there that I am still working on these things.

 

[poopo]

Hey PP,
I have a question regarding the mixup tree created when fox full hops in response to a laser. I find that whenever I am at about a dash attack distance from fox and I have laser control, many foxes love to full hop drill, occasionally mixing in double jump drill to catch me coming in on the whiff punish. I have found my most successful counterattack to be waiting for their landing, then attacking them once they're stuck in lag. However, foxes well versed in the matchup shift to full hop drill, then dash back anticipating my counterattack. Do you think the best path of action is to simply wait for their retreat, or should I simply mix up my response to this situation? It feels pretty unfulfilling to simply counter this option with "shoot more lasers", as I prefer to more actively take space and trigger panic options out of the fox.
Another similar situation that gives me trouble is when foxes or falcos simply camp the top platform waiting for me to corner myself, then come down with an aerial (or simply never come down.) I have tried to full hop dair to take space, but I find they often can simply keep running away. I acknowledge that running away doesn't really threaten much if they aren't punishing my full hop, but I still find myself looking for options to effectively counter this passive approach to beating falco. I suppose my main two questions are the most effective options you've found to counter runaway platform camping and full hop dash back?

 

[Bones0]

Hey PP,
I have a question regarding the mixup tree created when fox full hops in response to a laser. I find that whenever I am at about a dash attack distance from fox and I have laser control, many foxes love to full hop drill, occasionally mixing in double jump drill to catch me coming in on the whiff punish. I have found my most successful counterattack to be waiting for their landing, then attacking them once they're stuck in lag. However, foxes well versed in the matchup shift to full hop drill, then dash back anticipating my counterattack. Do you think the best path of action is to simply wait for their retreat, or should I simply mix up my response to this situation? It feels pretty unfulfilling to simply counter this option with "shoot more lasers", as I prefer to more actively take space and trigger panic options out of the fox.
Another similar situation that gives me trouble is when foxes or falcos simply camp the top platform waiting for me to corner myself, then come down with an aerial (or simply never come down.) I have tried to full hop dair to take space, but I find they often can simply keep running away. I acknowledge that running away doesn't really threaten much if they aren't punishing my full hop, but I still find myself looking for options to effectively counter this passive approach to beating falco. I suppose my main two questions are the most effective options you've found to counter runaway platform camping and full hop dash back?

If they FH drill over your laser, you can whiff punish their landing. If you're worried they will DJ to avoid this whiff punish, just shoot another laser. Assuming no plats come into play, he will either land from the FH into pressure from the second laser, or he DJs over the second laser which means he no longer has any good options besides drift mixups. You can whiff punish the DJ with a third laser to account for lots of drifts (probably all if done just right), or you can go for an antiair utilt, bair, or you can hedge your bet by whiff punishing his landing with a dair. Usually you can dair such that you cover drift in+no drift or no drift+drift away, but I don't think you can react fast enough to his drift be totally safe with this (i.e. if he drifts away and you daired drift forward, he may empty land and whiff punish your dair, or at least have frame advantage). Another option I haven't explored as much is to simply go for a grab whiff punish. Grab actually has pretty low cooldown so even if you try to grab drift in and they drift away, it seems like they can't get a true whiff punish on it before you're able to jab/shine/utilt/move away.

I'm not sure why you find lasering people out of their jumps unfulfilling. It puts people in terrible spots where they feel forced to respect your ability to follow lasers with an approach. A huge part of Falco's game in every matchup is lasering people in bad spots and letting them do something bad. Going in after or without a laser setup can work, but it's too risky to be your default option and 90% of Falcos lose entirely because they do bad approaches. If you aren't triggering panic options by lasering Fox within your SHFFL range, you either might be too far away to begin with, or you actually never approach (which I doubt based on what you're saying). If they're respecting your approach, they're either throwing out stuff you can whiff punish, dodging in ways that you can react to, or retreating where you get to do an approaching laser to take space and effectively repeat the mixup. Even with plats in the equation, that's really just another post-laser option at their disposal; you can still jump shine his FH to a plat with a read or let him jump and fight him from underneath (which is generally a very good position for Falco imo).

Controlling the top plat can be really good, especially on smaller stages like YS or FoD where you have less room outside of their WD off aerial range. Ultimately, you either need to challenge them directly (somewhat risky if you're not proactive enough to beat them coming down with a hitbox) or wait until they come down themselves. You can use a combination of lasers, utilt, and dash away AC bair to pretty easily beat people challenging above, especially Fox since he can't even hope to trade with a dair. You can play towards the corner and rely on side plats to protect you from above, or if you feel like the stage/percentages don't favor this strat, you can stay more to the middle and stay unpredictable with when you preemptively laser/antiair and move around so they aren't sure exactly where it is best for them to drop down. If they really seem like they're just camping, you could threaten them from below by SHing underneath, and if they still aren't reacting, DJ up and attack them in a way that's safe if they block (avoid shield drop punishes) and allows you to get back to the ground before them. I think you'll find this is really rare if you're properly threatening from below though. They only really gain anything by camping top plat if you jump above them for no reason and give them stage control or if you attack them poorly and give them a free shield drop opening.

 

[xxgungodxx]

You can keep shooting fox when he fjs, punish the landing lag, get under him + u-tilt, or try to catch his initial jump with an aerial.

If you have a good read you could jump in and shine him while he's in the air.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

1
Can you explain what you mean by laser spamming marth?
Are you saying there's less room to mix up dash dancing inbetween lasers in this MU?
Which match ups do you need to spam laser and what exactly do you mean by spam is what i'm getting at.
Do you think the way you played the MU before vs pewpewu / mew2king you weren't lasering enough? I didn't think you were laser spamming really in those sets but I guess I don't know what I'm looking for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZKx_VtnrHc the pokemon game is an example.

Are you saying you need to be more patient with lasers in these MUS or that you need to use more in general?
I imagine these things are not mutually exclusive.

How would being more patient vs marth look?

Can you describe the difference between long dash back > turn around laser in place and slight dash back > laser in place?
I imagine it as the slight dash back laser in place not really having much influence with the slight dash back because it's less likely people will react to it, while the long dash back laser in place is intentionally wanting them to respond to dash back (think you might retreat) and then to observe how they respond and then laser.

2
When doing analysis do you ever meticulously look at every single dash / action to see what they might have threatened and influenced? Just how slow do you take it? When I do your analysis process which you've listed elsewhere it definetely takes me a very long time which is a good thing but just wondering on how it goes for you.

https://youtu.be/c7K6Mcni640?t=184
Do you mind explaining exactly why this dash dance was so interesting.
Can you break down exactly how you didn't let peach push into you?
What type of defense would you consider here instead of the offense? Maybe a bair instead of the nair trade?
How were you being so threatening? Was it every dash forward that was so threatening in regards to nair or fair?
Why do you not recommend this thing to most players
When you were both on the ground moving, why not just laser to establish a laser and move from there?
I'll do my own analysis on it but interested in your thoughts as to why this dash dance was purposeful.

Do you plan on learning ZPS powershields back at people in the future? I figured jumping over lasers was more reliable and you would be more prone to doing that instead.

Can you explain the utility of doing 2x laser in place to me and how that might influence the opponent? I understand that it stuffs movement forward and slows people down but i'd like to know more as to why you think it's so important versus marth for example.

I have spent a long time working on basic mix ups as you said. I learned a bunch of the timing nuances in-between laser > aerial laser > dash back > approaching aerial and other things like laser > approaching laser > dash back etc, it was very useful and i'm still working on it, so thank you for that. I have definitely had better understanding and results playing melee recently with you, bones, and druggedfox's advice. Just figured i'd throw it out there that I am still working on these things.

Ah no, that's not exactly what I mean. I mean you can't laser once then go in or laser then dash back go in, which is Mango's main mixup stuff. Marth will eat that alive. You need slight lasers, some dash dance, and sometimes just patience overall because Marth makes you work to come in. Mango just isn't willing to wait that extra half beat or shoot an extra laser that would give him way more depth though.
Spam just means you shoot more than once as a mixup really, and it applies most strongly to Marth. It helps to laser decently against Sheik, sometimes spacies, and kinda Falcon too at minimum. Also bad characters it's fine to laser them more generally.

A big part of why I'm mad at how I've played Falco for a long time is I didn't laser enough/right like I knew I should. Too much learning about dash and not enough connecting with laser will do that.

Being more patient vs Marth just means you sometimes play for slight positional gain instead of big lunges, or sometimes you wait a little longer to let Marth hang himself by moving back to counter your threatened approaches so you observe his option and also take advantage of better positions.

Slight dash back is much faster tempo wise so it's good for covering more stuff so it keeps lasers coming more quickly, which is sometimes better sometimes worse when closer to an opponent. It is less likely they react to the dash itself though you're right. Long dash back you encourage them to come in/respond to your lapse in tempo and this is generally a more defensive/tempo break play by me when I occasionally do it.

2.

Hmm...how do I say it. A lot of players, even at the top level and often myself in many instances don't always have purpose in their dashes so I can skip over things a lot and then notice when something intentional did happen and go deep on it. However, if someone accidentally does a strong movement or I want to go deeper on a particular possible situation instead of what they did out of a movement, I may dissect that. I find individual work to be incredibly rewarding, but at my level the process can look a bit different sometimes. Sometimes I just look for a hit, sometimes I just look at main threats and how those play together and then think of possible strengthening mixups on both sides as well as when the game state changes(like a momentum shift and what caused it). I think individual actions is very fine, and in my earlier days I did this a whole lot which I found really useful.

Ah...I can try. Initially it wasn't so interesting as I prioritized being away from Peach for a couple extra dashes even when she couldn't reliably threaten me, but as I begin to move in with that first long dash and force Armada to jump that was good. Then I play kind of dumb and phase out again as he comes down with Bair and overcorrect for her DA when I should be setting up positioning better. Then as I confirm he's moving away again I move closer to pressure and I force him to aerial with my stutter step Nair. It would've been better if I hadn't committed to aerial'ing in advance, but I still like the overall level of intent in my play since I don't always see it on video sadly(and clearly as I've mentioned this could be better too).
I was threatening my Nair and Dair mainly, but also Bair if she tried to attack or at least shield if it's DA. I actually like to DD vs Peach float, so I don't mind lasering less vs her sometimes since she can't get the jump on me that way and has to deal with my moves no matter what then. I wouldn't recommend this because I couldn't imagine it's easy enough to replicate and I want to give people effective strategies they can use right away.

I absolutely plan on learning ZPS. If a player tries to abuse it like M2K and Zain do then you'd want to blow up their plans, but also other characters could use ZPS against me so I predict it will become more common in the future. Having a way to throw laser back at them will make them change up/question their game a lot, even if I only use it sparingly. Jump over will still be involved, and I can even fake the PS and just defensively jump over with SH backward and Bair them instead if I want to as well. I think the PS meta will evolve and I want to be ahead of it and learn all of the nuances before it's common, even if it will make the game uglier in some ways with people running in to force guaranteed interactions when they see a laser coming. Oh also, jumping over lasers to attack can backfire if they don't PS the laser or if they PS then attack OOS iirc, so I don't think it will be a failsafe play by itself combined with going on a platform and playing from there(not to mention that latter option is definitely not always accessible).

Marth's main advantage over Falco is mobility. You want to encourage him to slow down and even stand in place or shield vs lasers so he doesn't try to resume moving after getting hit for example. Then you're free to begin moving after one laser sometimes since Marth is used to a second laser coming, and this opens up your chance to outmaneuver him. Also vs Marth, he generally stays on the ground, so there isn't much danger of shooting useless lasers he could FH to avoid. Any time you know an opponent will prefer to be grounded, you can shoot a little more. Shoot too much and they often jump away knowing you prefer to shoot than pressure, which gets Falcos into trouble a lot. However you can use this knowledge to abuse other matchups. Against Marth you just need to know more of the first part and be patient.

I was hoping it had been beneficial for you. I hope it keeps treating you well!

Hey PP,
I have a question regarding the mixup tree created when fox full hops in response to a laser. I find that whenever I am at about a dash attack distance from fox and I have laser control, many foxes love to full hop drill, occasionally mixing in double jump drill to catch me coming in on the whiff punish. I have found my most successful counterattack to be waiting for their landing, then attacking them once they're stuck in lag. However, foxes well versed in the matchup shift to full hop drill, then dash back anticipating my counterattack. Do you think the best path of action is to simply wait for their retreat, or should I simply mix up my response to this situation? It feels pretty unfulfilling to simply counter this option with "shoot more lasers", as I prefer to more actively take space and trigger panic options out of the fox.
Another similar situation that gives me trouble is when foxes or falcos simply camp the top platform waiting for me to corner myself, then come down with an aerial (or simply never come down.) I have tried to full hop dair to take space, but I find they often can simply keep running away. I acknowledge that running away doesn't really threaten much if they aren't punishing my full hop, but I still find myself looking for options to effectively counter this passive approach to beating falco. I suppose my main two questions are the most effective options you've found to counter runaway platform camping and full hop dash back?

If you can laser slightly closer you'll find you can start grabbing/attacking/pressuring their landing more reliably. At the spacing where Fox can FH safely neither him nor Falco can attack each other safely. You need to weasel in a bit, or just go for some stuff like FH Nair/Dair him as he jumps, or DJ over him and Dair. The DJ over is pretty safe as you often land on platforms doing this, or you can just not Dair and do a mixup from this new position that's still fine vs Fox. You can also deep laser in on them after they land so you can chase them down and pressure their dash away, but obviously they can just Utilt on landing to hit you then. Still a deeper mixup game though.

It depends on how they platform camp and also the stage to an extent. Normally I like FH Bair because it sticks out to the sides more than Dair and it's harder to punish and also dislodges them better when they're at mid/high percent. You can also shoot some FH/DJ lasers or runoff DJ lasers from platforms to harass them as well. Generally between mixing waiting with those lasers and also just directly threatening them with FH/DJ Bair you can find something to dislodge them successfully. If you need help with a specific camping pattern you'll need to show me.

 

[poopo]

If they FH drill over your laser, you can whiff punish their landing. If you're worried they will DJ to avoid this whiff punish, just shoot another laser. Assuming no plats come into play, he will either land from the FH into pressure from the second laser, or he DJs over the second laser which means he no longer has any good options besides drift mixups. You can whiff punish the DJ with a third laser to account for lots of drifts (probably all if done just right), or you can go for an antiair utilt, bair, or you can hedge your bet by whiff punishing his landing with a dair. Usually you can dair such that you cover drift in+no drift or no drift+drift away, but I don't think you can react fast enough to his drift be totally safe with this (i.e. if he drifts away and you daired drift forward, he may empty land and whiff punish your dair, or at least have frame advantage). Another option I haven't explored as much is to simply go for a grab whiff punish. Grab actually has pretty low cooldown so even if you try to grab drift in and they drift away, it seems like they can't get a true whiff punish on it before you're able to jab/shine/utilt/move away.

I'm not sure why you find lasering people out of their jumps unfulfilling. It puts people in terrible spots where they feel forced to respect your ability to follow lasers with an approach. A huge part of Falco's game in every matchup is lasering people in bad spots and letting them do something bad. Going in after or without a laser setup can work, but it's too risky to be your default option and 90% of Falcos lose entirely because they do bad approaches. If you aren't triggering panic options by lasering Fox within your SHFFL range, you either might be too far away to begin with, or you actually never approach (which I doubt based on what you're saying). If they're respecting your approach, they're either throwing out stuff you can whiff punish, dodging in ways that you can react to, or retreating where you get to do an approaching laser to take space and effectively repeat the mixup. Even with plats in the equation, that's really just another post-laser option at their disposal; you can still jump shine his FH to a plat with a read or let him jump and fight him from underneath (which is generally a very good position for Falco imo).

Controlling the top plat can be really good, especially on smaller stages like YS or FoD where you have less room outside of their WD off aerial range. Ultimately, you either need to challenge them directly (somewhat risky if you're not proactive enough to beat them coming down with a hitbox) or wait until they come down themselves. You can use a combination of lasers, utilt, and dash away AC bair to pretty easily beat people challenging above, especially Fox since he can't even hope to trade with a dair. You can play towards the corner and rely on side plats to protect you from above, or if you feel like the stage/percentages don't favor this strat, you can stay more to the middle and stay unpredictable with when you preemptively laser/antiair and move around so they aren't sure exactly where it is best for them to drop down. If they really seem like they're just camping, you could threaten them from below by SHing underneath, and if they still aren't reacting, DJ up and attack them in a way that's safe if they block (avoid shield drop punishes) and allows you to get back to the ground before them. I think you'll find this is really rare if you're properly threatening from below though. They only really gain anything by camping top plat if you jump above them for no reason and give them stage control or if you attack them poorly and give them a free shield drop opening.

Bones,
I suppose the thing I find unfulfilling is the common response I hear of "just shoot more lasers." I do get a lot of enjoyment from catching peaches mid float with a high laser, or stuffing running shines from foxes, but the notion of countering an option by simply laser camping is what I've found to stall my progression as a player. Simply repeating the mixup, having them full hop, then just continuing my lasers makes me feel as if I'm not really learning anything new- in the end, I haven't done anything proactive to counter their full hop pattern. The end result is that I see a player mindlessly repeating a habit that I cannot punish effectively, so resorting to simply lasering ad infinitum until they approach doesn't mesh with my approach to the game (I recognize laser camping is necessary at times, but I don't like being truly sedentary.)
That being said, I really like what you and PP said regarding my proximity to the fox before the laser. I think this will help me a lot.

One other question for PP or Bones (or anyone familiar with this situation for that matter)- when you shine a fox mid stage, and they DI onto the side plat and tech away, how do you usually follow up? I've tried to simply shine waveland, but falco is so slow that oftentimes I cannot actually make it to the opposite plat side to punish. Do you guys just shine waveland the tech in place, then dash grab tech away? Or am I simply too slow to cover tech away? I have found spacies to auto pilot tech away to avoid followups, so I want to fix this part of my approach to the combo game. Thank you guys both so much for the feedback.

 

[roboticphish]

I have a couple questions about a very specific interaction between Falco's dair and Marth/Sheik below knockdown%

Gif 1
Gif 2
Gif 3

Okay, so my question is in regard to the 'reelback' or 'spike stun' animation, where Marth/Sheik flip end over end. You can see it happening to Plup in Gif 1, and to Marth in Gif 2. My question is: Under what circumstances does this occur? There are some things that are in common between two or three of the gifs, but inconsistent.

Commonalities:
- All three are triggered by Dair
- Dair is unstaled in all three (and verified by SleepyK that this animation can be triggered even when stale)
- All three dairs happen below knockdown%, but above 20%
- Gif 1 and Gif 2 trigger the reelback
- Gif 1 and Gif 3 are strong hit dairs
- In all three, the enemy is in another animation; Sheik is in landing lag from her up-air in gif 1, Marth is in the dash animation in gif 2, and Marth is in the get-up animation in gif 3

Inconsistencies:
- Mango hits high on Sheik's hurtbox in gif 1, Phish hits low on Marth's hurtbox in gif 2, Phish hits high on Marth's hurtbox in gif 3. Positioning of the hitbox does not appear to be the common factor to trigger the animation.
- Gif 2 is a soft hit dair, and triggers the animation. Gif 3 is a strong hit, and does not trigger the animation. Strong/Weak hit does not appear to be the common factor to trigger the animation.
- Sheik starts at 32% in gif 1, Marth starts at 24% in gif 2, Marth starts at 20% in gif 3. Percent when hit may be a possible cause?
- Unknown if opponent was holding down in any of the three gifs. ASDI down may be a possible cause?

I am trying to map out early % followups off of dair to get more guaranteed punishes, and if there's a commonality that triggers this animation, that's going to be super helpful. My gut tells me it has to do with the % they're at when they're hit, and that's it. Anyone here know more for sure?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Bones,
I suppose the thing I find unfulfilling is the common response I hear of "just shoot more lasers." I do get a lot of enjoyment from catching peaches mid float with a high laser, or stuffing running shines from foxes, but the notion of countering an option by simply laser camping is what I've found to stall my progression as a player. Simply repeating the mixup, having them full hop, then just continuing my lasers makes me feel as if I'm not really learning anything new- in the end, I haven't done anything proactive to counter their full hop pattern. The end result is that I see a player mindlessly repeating a habit that I cannot punish effectively, so resorting to simply lasering ad infinitum until they approach doesn't mesh with my approach to the game (I recognize laser camping is necessary at times, but I don't like being truly sedentary.)
That being said, I really like what you and PP said regarding my proximity to the fox before the laser. I think this will help me a lot.

One other question for PP or Bones (or anyone familiar with this situation for that matter)- when you shine a fox mid stage, and they DI onto the side plat and tech away, how do you usually follow up? I've tried to simply shine waveland, but falco is so slow that oftentimes I cannot actually make it to the opposite plat side to punish. Do you guys just shine waveland the tech in place, then dash grab tech away? Or am I simply too slow to cover tech away? I have found spacies to auto pilot tech away to avoid followups, so I want to fix this part of my approach to the combo game. Thank you guys both so much for the feedback.

This depends on things like percent so I can't give an easy answer. If you can't shine waveland against it, something I will try to do is just Nair/Bair them offstage since it deals pretty good damage and I can spike them without them teching the wall in some situations. I could also DJ falling laser(push them off platform) and fall through the platform then do a (jab) grab mixup as they're by the edge and I have advantage. If their percent is higher you can Uair and they can't slide off always iirc.

I have a couple questions about a very specific interaction between Falco's dair and Marth/Sheik below knockdown%

Gif 1
Gif 2
Gif 3

Okay, so my question is in regard to the 'reelback' or 'spike stun' animation, where Marth/Sheik flip end over end. You can see it happening to Plup in Gif 1, and to Marth in Gif 2. My question is: Under what circumstances does this occur? There are some things that are in common between two or three of the gifs, but inconsistent.

Commonalities:
- All three are triggered by Dair
- Dair is unstaled in all three (and verified by SleepyK that this animation can be triggered even when stale)
- All three dairs happen below knockdown%, but above 20%
- Gif 1 and Gif 2 trigger the reelback
- Gif 1 and Gif 3 are strong hit dairs
- In all three, the enemy is in another animation; Sheik is in landing lag from her up-air in gif 1, Marth is in the dash animation in gif 2, and Marth is in the get-up animation in gif 3

Inconsistencies:
- Mango hits high on Sheik's hurtbox in gif 1, Phish hits low on Marth's hurtbox in gif 2, Phish hits high on Marth's hurtbox in gif 3. Positioning of the hitbox does not appear to be the common factor to trigger the animation.
- Gif 2 is a soft hit dair, and triggers the animation. Gif 3 is a strong hit, and does not trigger the animation. Strong/Weak hit does not appear to be the common factor to trigger the animation.
- Sheik starts at 32% in gif 1, Marth starts at 24% in gif 2, Marth starts at 20% in gif 3. Percent when hit may be a possible cause?
- Unknown if opponent was holding down in any of the three gifs. ASDI down may be a possible cause?

I am trying to map out early % followups off of dair to get more guaranteed punishes, and if there's a commonality that triggers this animation, that's going to be super helpful. My gut tells me it has to do with the % they're at when they're hit, and that's it. Anyone here know more for sure?

No idea. Hopefully someone here can answer this question.

 

[roboticphish]

This depends on things like percent so I can't give an easy answer. If you can't shine waveland against it, something I will try to do is just Nair/Bair them offstage since it deals pretty good damage and I can spike them without them teching the wall in some situations. I could also DJ falling laser(push them off platform) and fall through the platform then do a (jab) grab mixup as they're by the edge and I have advantage. If their percent is higher you can Uair and they can't slide off always iirc.


No idea. Hopefully someone here can answer this question.

Damn, I was hoping you'd know. Sleepy thinks it's random, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Something you might be able to answer regarding this, though. Gif 2: Why was shine unable to punish the reelback animation, when Mango was able to punish Sheik's reelback with dtilt in gif 1? I can't tell if I missed the L-cancel here.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You missed the L-cancel and also his percent was lower so he had less stun time.

I would also like to know about reelback since I think it has made me miss Dair into Dtilt before but I could be misremembering that. There is a certain high percent animation that some characters go into out of Fthrow or Fair and that makes it harder for Marth to Dair out of these things and Kadano said it was completely random even when controlling for percent. If that's the case then this may be the same.

 

[roboticphish]

You missed the L-cancel and also his percent was lower so he had less stun time.

I would also like to know about reelback since I think it has made me miss Dair into Dtilt before but I could be misremembering that. There is a certain high percent animation that some characters go into out of Fthrow or Fair and that makes it harder for Marth to Dair out of these things and Kadano said it was completely random even when controlling for percent. If that's the case then this may be the same.

That's actually the part that makes me most curious about the reelback animation; you'd think that, since it is a separate animation, that it would last the same amount of time regardless of the % he gets hit at. So whether that's at 20 or 40%, going into that animation should last the same amount of frames (as opposed to being in general hitstun, which is variable based on %). I know for sure that dair -> dtilt won't work until that reelback starts happening, because below 20% (when it doesn't appear to ever happen) you kinda always have to go for dair -> grab or dair -> shine if you're spaced for it and a god.

But I'm curious if the reelback is a set amount of stun correlated with hitstun, or if it's a separate animation triggered in a specific set of circumstances that has to finish before the character is actionable. Maybe there's even IASA frames, I'm not sure. I have a lot of questions regarding it.