PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

I used to shine FH a lot in case people tried to shield grab, and iirc her Uair doesn't beat your Dair or anything so I'm not sure why you're worried about it. It is true that if you don't get anything she can still reposition though.
Also, you can always just space a little bit on her shield or shine and SH away a little to space on her since her shield isn't great and any amount of pressure leaves her very shield stabbable. Since she's slow OOS if she can't do the options you mentioned that's always been fine with me and often forces rolls. I also don't find Usmash OOS too bad unless I'm behind her but it is true it can be an issue on both sides sometimes.

Spotdodge grab? I've never heard of a Puff doing that. Shine grab was always my go-to besides that stuff I listed, but if that becomes a common option I could see myself spacing on her shield more often. Perhaps double shine should be implemented more to avoid this, though of course shield DI can still be an issue here. Her holding away as I start pressure could open up some more shield stabs, so that's a trade I'm okay with.

Perhaps it's worth playing with shine FH or spacing pressure or double shine more and focusing slightly less on closer aerial shine pressure and shine grabbing...or at least shine grabbing little enough so you don't see spotdodge attempts anymore so you can work that back in.

I also just like laser grab, and I'm okay with forcing spotdodge here as I can Fsmash on a read or just set up spaced pressure and hit her out of it if she's wrong which can still be pretty good.

I don't worry about Puff's shield too much despite what you've said because her shield isn't great and her range and mobility OOS isn't too good so I think this can still be okay. Does any of this help?

Her uair is ridiculously disjointed and beats Falco's dair without trading pretty easily. Not really sure what you said will help since I don't have any videos or people to practice with, but I will try to remember it next time I play a Puff in tournament.

 

[Gibbs]

Hey PP, how do you think Falco should deal with shielding Puff? When I aerial shine her shield, a few things tend to happen:
1. She tries to shield grab and DIs in case my shine hits
2. She tries to shield grab after my shine
3. She usmashes OoS

#1 is annoying because she gets to disrespect my pressure for free with the upside of a shield grab uthrow combo and the downside is basically nothing because shine doesn't combo into anything if she DIs.

#2 is fine if I aerial after my shine, which is usually what I do, but #3 hard counters it by trading or winning outright, and her WD OoS goes under it as well. I would love to just shinegrab a lot because at least the throw gives me decent positioning, but it's actually quite risky because of her spotdodge grab. Waveshining away is another option I'd like to have in my arsenal, but if they resort to #2 then I have to worry about getting grabbed before I can slide away since her grab has surprisingly good range.

Do I just have to win these mixups even though they're high risk low reward? The only other option I can think of that I haven't really tried is to shine and FH/DJ away from her which gives me nothing unless she commits to a shield grab/usmash, and puts me in a terrible position above her if she just holds shield and is able to uair me on my way back down.

Hey PP, how do you think Falco should deal with shielding Puff? When I aerial shine her shield, a few things tend to happen:
1. She tries to shield grab and DIs in case my shine hits
2. She tries to shield grab after my shine
3. She usmashes OoS

#1 is annoying because she gets to disrespect my pressure for free with the upside of a shield grab uthrow combo and the downside is basically nothing because shine doesn't combo into anything if she DIs.

#2 is fine if I aerial after my shine, which is usually what I do, but #3 hard counters it by trading or winning outright, and her WD OoS goes under it as well. I would love to just shinegrab a lot because at least the throw gives me decent positioning, but it's actually quite risky because of her spotdodge grab. Waveshining away is another option I'd like to have in my arsenal, but if they resort to #2 then I have to worry about getting grabbed before I can slide away since her grab has surprisingly good range.

Do I just have to win these mixups even though they're high risk low reward? The only other option I can think of that I haven't really tried is to shine and FH/DJ away from her which gives me nothing unless she commits to a shield grab/usmash, and puts me in a terrible position above her if she just holds shield and is able to uair me on my way back down.

Crossup delayed aerial or crossup emptyjump shine turnaround grab offer some interesting mixup and is a better position to scout rolls of wd oos from.

 

[Barron]

Anyone have advice on wavedashing backwards out of shine (while facing forward)? I think the trick is to quarter circle forward during the shine then backwards during the wavedash. This is the method I'm gonna start practicing with unless someone else has a more practical way of doing it.

Shine grabbing with X/Y and Z. If you get a jump, that means you didn't press Z fast enough, correct?

 

[Gibbs]

So after reading some earlier questions Yort was asking about different dash varieties and their utility, I was wondering what sort of hit confirming, or reaction whiff punishing is actually available to falcos in some common dashback-dash in scenarios. One thing I see mang0 do quite a bit against marth is this: low laser on shield - dash back to baiting shield grab - dash in sh aerial.

Now is this sort of set-play just an advantageous mix up, or can the falco actually punish the shield grab on reaction? Now falco has 11 frames of dash animation before he transitions to run, let's add to that 4 frames of normal landing lag from the low laser. That gives the falco 15 frames to potentially react to the Marth acting out of shield before committing to the dash in. 15 frames is just on the feasible side of human reaction time to visual stimulus, but its close enough to make me think that 99% of the time the dash in after laser-dash back is premeditated and not reactionary. Even if it is reactionary, the falco can most likely only react to the disappearance of the shield, so the dash in is only a response to generic "action OOS".

There is one area here where I think falcos might look to hit confirm a laser before committing to the dash back in. 'tanking' lasers rather than trying to shield or powershield is becoming a more common anti-laser tactic. Since the threshold for reacting to audio stimulus is a good deal lower than visual (from what I've heard, I don't have numbers on this in terms of average frames) there's a good chance that hit confirming tanking a laser vs shielding a laser based on audio cues is feasible on a consistent basis. While I haven't messed around with this too much myself, and it's a bit of a edge case application, I think that there is a lot of good work to be done in flow charting and min-maxing falcos whiff punish and baiting game.

 

[Yort]

So after reading some earlier questions Yort was asking about different dash varieties and their utility, I was wondering what sort of hit confirming, or reaction whiff punishing is actually available to falcos in some common dashback-dash in scenarios. One thing I see mang0 do quite a bit against marth is this: low laser on shield - dash back to baiting shield grab - dash in sh aerial.

Now is this sort of set-play just an advantageous mix up, or can the falco actually punish the shield grab on reaction? Now falco has 11 frames of dash animation before he transitions to run, let's add to that 4 frames of normal landing lag from the low laser. That gives the falco 15 frames to potentially react to the Marth acting out of shield before committing to the dash in. 15 frames is just on the feasible side of human reaction time to visual stimulus, but its close enough to make me think that 99% of the time the dash in after laser-dash back is premeditated and not reactionary. Even if it is reactionary, the falco can most likely only react to the disappearance of the shield, so the dash in is only a response to generic "action OOS".

There is one area here where I think falcos might look to hit confirm a laser before committing to the dash back in. 'tanking' lasers rather than trying to shield or powershield is becoming a more common anti-laser tactic. Since the threshold for reacting to audio stimulus is a good deal lower than visual (from what I've heard, I don't have numbers on this in terms of average frames) there's a good chance that hit confirming tanking a laser vs shielding a laser based on audio cues is feasible on a consistent basis. While I haven't messed around with this too much myself, and it's a bit of a edge case application, I think that there is a lot of good work to be done in flow charting and min-maxing falcos whiff punish and baiting game.

That would be pretty cool with the audio reaction things but I haven't messed around with it aside from falco side b.

My impression is that you actually need to usually confirm that the laser connected and where it connected within the first half or less of the dash you do after laser. Therefore, if you want to confirm that you lasered a falco slightly above the ground as he was falling with bair so you can jump in to pressure, you would have to slight back / forward to actually properly confirm that the laser hit and also where it hit. I think this also depends on range; longer range = more time to react sort of.

I think you are correct in that 99% of times it is premeditated. People often react to either "generic reaction out of shield" type stuff. Sometimes people react to the jump squat and then predict a full hop vs wave dash and cover one or the other, or react to the startup of roll. I am not too certain about the specifics of all of these things but I used to be obsessed with just how much was premeditated and what was not and came to realize that the majority of things are to premeditated to some degree. People are primed to react to certain things and expect certain things afterwards based on what they expect, yada yada. I think people overestimate and misunderstand the idea of pure reactions in melee. I don't think people understand the degree to which they are primed to cover certain things, and how perceived reactions differ from pure reactions

 

[Gibbs]

That would be pretty cool with the audio reaction things but I haven't messed around with it aside from falco side b.

My impression is that you actually need to usually confirm that the laser connected and where it connected within the first half or less of the dash you do after laser. Therefore, if you want to confirm that you lasered a falco slightly above the ground as he was falling with bair so you can jump in to pressure, you would have to slight back / forward to actually properly confirm that the laser hit and also where it hit. I think this also depends on range; longer range = more time to react sort of.

I think you are correct in that 99% of times it is premeditated. People often react to either "generic reaction out of shield" type stuff. Sometimes people react to the jump squat and then predict a full hop vs wave dash and cover one or the other, or react to the startup of roll. I am not too certain about the specifics of all of these things but I used to be obsessed with just how much was premeditated and what was not and came to realize that the majority of things are to premeditated to some degree. People are primed to react to certain things and expect certain things afterwards based on what they expect, yada yada. I think people overestimate and misunderstand the idea of pure reactions in melee. I don't think people understand the degree to which they are primed to cover certain things, and how perceived reactions differ from pure reactions. I find the whole conversation in melee on these sorts of things (reads vs reactions yada yada) to be fuzzy, with a lot of misunderstandings (myself included) so I avoid it and try to contribute to my own understanding. The most important thing is to understand it with your fingers and your eyes, practically; if you know what i'm saying lmao.

It would be cool if you figured out more about this stuff in concrete terms though. I had some deep misunderstandings about these things when I first started spamming ppmd here. I find it difficult to translate my current understanding (of anything) into text so apologies if this is not clear. Also I don't like responding to things because I could easily be wrong about anything I say so just ignore what seems silly, kinda started ranting here.

For sure there are lots of misconceptions on this subject. I do think think that trying to find real reactions where possible and adding them to your kit is something that progresses the meta quite a bit. I mean look at Wizzy's falcon.

 

[Bones0]

Anyone have advice on wavedashing backwards out of shine (while facing forward)? I think the trick is to quarter circle forward during the shine then backwards during the wavedash. This is the method I'm gonna start practicing with unless someone else has a more practical way of doing it.

Shine grabbing with X/Y and Z. If you get a jump, that means you didn't press Z fast enough, correct?

Quarter circle forward is unnecessary. Make sure you're jump before you move the stick away from down and you should be fine.

 

[Gibbs]

Anyone have advice on wavedashing backwards out of shine (while facing forward)? I think the trick is to quarter circle forward during the shine then backwards during the wavedash. This is the method I'm gonna start practicing with unless someone else has a more practical way of doing it.

Shine grabbing with X/Y and Z. If you get a jump, that means you didn't press Z fast enough, correct?

While I don't usually recommend that people do things in melee slower, know that you can jump out of shine during all the frames it reflects. I believe that is frames 4-21. This is a 16 frame window. Essentially an eternity in twitchy tech skill timescales. I recommend treating the shine and the wavedash as two distinct inputs. Shine, then wavedash out. Do it slowly at first letting the stick get close to neutral after the shine, then hit your WD angle. Speed up from there.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

What do you guys think of using shield and wavedash oos to get out of the corner? I see leffen do it, and I've been trying it myself a bit. I like the initial idea, but once I do the wdoos and now have a bit more stage I find myself stuck in shield. FH to top plat is my first instinct, but I've also tried simply lasering. I've also found that when the opponent does well spaced pressure on my shield, my sheild shrinks and I lose the resource of shielding, and even if I mixup my corner options well, it still takes time to get back the resource of a full shield. My other main corner options are wd to ledge ledgedash, full hop and then react with mainly dj to top plat or falling laser, or lasering in the corner. What are my best mixups after conditioning my opponent to cover my shield and wdoos?

 

[Gibbs]

What do you guys think of using shield and wavedash oos to get out of the corner? I see leffen do it, and I've been trying it myself a bit. I like the initial idea, but once I do the wdoos and now have a bit more stage I find myself stuck in shield. FH to top plat is my first instinct, but I've also tried simply lasering. I've also found that when the opponent does well spaced pressure on my shield, my sheild shrinks and I lose the resource of shielding, and even if I mixup my corner options well, it still takes time to get back the resource of a full shield. My other main corner options are wd to ledge ledgedash, full hop and then react with mainly dj to top plat or falling laser, or lasering in the corner. What are my best mixups after conditioning my opponent to cover my shield and wdoos?

I find f-tilt to be a pretty good option to throw in every once in a while at the ledge. The distance and speed throw off a lot of options that people might use to catch the falco lasering or shielding aka, boost and JC grabs and dash attacks. Landing a stray hit and boxing your way out might be just the thing a bird needs to safely roll or full jump out. Mostly because it is very hard to react and punish after getting hit with an 'off tempo' move.

 

[Scroll]

What do you guys think of using shield and wavedash oos to get out of the corner?

Something as simple as Full Jump SideB edge cancel will keep them on their toes if you show you can do it. To punish it they have to commit pretty hard

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee

If you intensely dislike your old falco, do you have any sets of yours you would actually recommend people to watch and learn from?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What do you guys think of using shield and wavedash oos to get out of the corner? I see leffen do it, and I've been trying it myself a bit. I like the initial idea, but once I do the wdoos and now have a bit more stage I find myself stuck in shield. FH to top plat is my first instinct, but I've also tried simply lasering. I've also found that when the opponent does well spaced pressure on my shield, my sheild shrinks and I lose the resource of shielding, and even if I mixup my corner options well, it still takes time to get back the resource of a full shield. My other main corner options are wd to ledge ledgedash, full hop and then react with mainly dj to top plat or falling laser, or lasering in the corner. What are my best mixups after conditioning my opponent to cover my shield and wdoos?

WD OOS can still be good, but it's much slower with Falco and his shine is smaller too which can matter. You should avoid shielding when possible and opt to keep your yolo Dair threat mixed with laser to get advantage to get out and mix platform games/FH double laser to get out. If you do have to shield then yeah keep in mind Dair OOS, spotdodge, roll, FH, and WD forward and backward as well as laser OOS. You can also lightshield and/or shield DI to the edge and edgedash which you were already kind of talking about.

Dr Peepee

If you intensely dislike your old falco, do you have any sets of yours you would actually recommend people to watch and learn from?

Smashers Reunion, GF set 1, matches where I win. I also slightly recommend my first half of 2014 stuff.

 

[Gibbs]

One thing I'm finding really interesting at the moment is the push-pull dynamic I've been experiencing between solo-practice and friendlies/grinding weeklies. I feel like I hit diminishing returns with either form of practice pretty quickly these days. If I play too many friendlies I start running into adaptations I'm not able to execute on and if I grind in 20xx too long it feels like I start to develop bad habits from only working on techskill/shadowboxing etc. For now it feels like a 2:1 ratio of solo practice to playing people is necessary for my maximum improvement. The existence of people who get good at this game solely though PvP experience is something I have trouble comprehending, because friendlies to me become borderline useless for learning/improvement after like 2-3hrs (a bit longer if there's a rotation and competitive character variety).

What sort of ratios have you guys worked with during your periods of strongest growth? Do you think the ratio is influenced a lot by character choice? The bird has so many options and so much opportunity for growth just through improved tech and game-play speed, so that might be a factor in my 2:1 bias. It makes a little sense that a floaty might benefit more from a diet of mostly PvP practice, but at the same time with generally more limited tools it seems much harder to come to a set up with fresh eyes to experiment, iterate, and grow.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I believe these ratios can depend somewhat on where you are in your improvement period or what ideas you have. Some ideas take longer to flesh out than others for example, so you'd want to play more friendlies then. For me though, I do prefer solo training more myself now. I used to not really do that and focus on analysis and playing others, and alternating which I did more as necessary.

Falco would require more solo practice because he just has more stuff to do for sure, but ultimately the difference lessened for me when I factored in extra things like tech chasing between my characters and so on.

 

[deponepvp]

Hey Dr Peepee I sent you a message a while back regarding a framework for Melee fundamentals. If you could check it out and hit me back up I would really appreciate it

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

WD OOS can still be good, but it's much slower with Falco and his shine is smaller too which can matter. You should avoid shielding when possible and opt to keep your yolo Dair threat mixed with laser to get advantage to get out and mix platform games/FH double laser to get out. If you do have to shield then yeah keep in mind Dair OOS, spotdodge, roll, FH, and WD forward and backward as well as laser OOS. You can also lightshield and/or shield DI to the edge and edgedash which you were already kind of talking about.


Smashers Reunion, GF set 1, matches where I win. I also slightly recommend my first half of 2014 stuff.

What do you like to do on platforms to get out of the corner? It's definitely stage dependent but could you give me a general overview on the tri plat stages?

I've been thinking about dash back dash in against peach when you're about one character length away from her shielding, it seems super strong maybe because they have to play on your rhythm? As the peach in that position I feel like I would be disinclined to jump and because Falco's approach on the ground is much better than approaching an aerial peach this option seems so good. I think Peach's most obvious answer to Falco dashing away from her shield is wd back, with the options I would worry about as Falco being cc d smash or shield, but low dair seems good against both of those. Has anyone tried this option in this position? I've struggled with this position in the past because I'm always inclined to do a high sh dair.

What should Falco do after getting hit by Peach's first jab? Light shield? Keep shielding and then sh dair oos? Seems super risky to cc after the first jab because she can d smash instead of doing the second one. The only two options I find are fast enough after cc against peach are d smash and jab. But jab can get cc d smashed or shield grabbed, and d smash comes out on frame 6 while peach's leg's start their invincibility on frame 3 and her d smash comes out on frame 5. In a similar vein I'm looking for more options to do while shielding against Peach besides the mixup between full hop and roll. I've been liking that mixup less and less recently because if they read either one they get a fat punish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=411&v=UZxJMz2NfuY&t=6m50s Why does mango full hop out of pressure here??? I really cannot think of any reason why. The options that come to mind are to continue low aerial shine pressure, turn around laser shine pressure to cover roll, shine grab, and shine wd back. Seems pointless to me. Maybe it was a mistake because Mango missed his shine after the dair?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Dr Peepee I sent you a message a while back regarding a framework for Melee fundamentals. If you could check it out and hit me back up I would really appreciate it

I don't usually respond to smasboards PMs, sorry

What do you like to do on platforms to get out of the corner? It's definitely stage dependent but could you give me a general overview on the tri plat stages?

I've been thinking about dash back dash in against peach when you're about one character length away from her shielding, it seems super strong maybe because they have to play on your rhythm? As the peach in that position I feel like I would be disinclined to jump and because Falco's approach on the ground is much better than approaching an aerial peach this option seems so good. I think Peach's most obvious answer to Falco dashing away from her shield is wd back, with the options I would worry about as Falco being cc d smash or shield, but low dair seems good against both of those. Has anyone tried this option in this position? I've struggled with this position in the past because I'm always inclined to do a high sh dair.

What should Falco do after getting hit by Peach's first jab? Light shield? Keep shielding and then sh dair oos? Seems super risky to cc after the first jab because she can d smash instead of doing the second one. The only two options I find are fast enough after cc against peach are d smash and jab. But jab can get cc d smashed or shield grabbed, and d smash comes out on frame 6 while peach's leg's start their invincibility on frame 3 and her d smash comes out on frame 5. In a similar vein I'm looking for more options to do while shielding against Peach besides the mixup between full hop and roll. I've been liking that mixup less and less recently because if they read either one they get a fat punish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=411&v=UZxJMz2NfuY&t=6m50s Why does mango full hop out of pressure here??? I really cannot think of any reason why. The options that come to mind are to continue low aerial shine pressure, turn around laser shine pressure to cover roll, shine grab, and shine wd back. Seems pointless to me. Maybe it was a mistake because Mango missed his shine after the dair?

Well let's keep in mind I don't currently have a lot of shield drop application against better players, so I'll be omitting anything to do with that. I like SH into/over them and attack rarely(and faking that with SH in then DJ to top platform or whatever), drop through laser, dashing in shield their attack then shine OOS, and occasionally FH depending on matchup/conditioning for observation or a punish or just more time(FH in place I meant, but you can dash FH to top platform which is good too). You can also run back off of the edge of the platform closest to the edge and laser or aerial or empty land.

Yeah the low Dair can work there, but you have to watch for hold shield or Nair OOS. You're on a good track.

I might try to mash Dair which will get me Dtilt if they jab again or Dair if they Dsmash iirc. You can just shield DI away and/or buffer roll away since Peach would struggle to catch that. Mixed with FH away it should be pretty hard for her to reliably catch.

Yeah he either assumed he'd hit a shine there, or more likely he just messed up since his shine didn't even come out.

 

[Gibbs]

What do you like to do on platforms to get out of the corner? It's definitely stage dependent but could you give me a general overview on the tri plat stages?

I've been thinking about dash back dash in against peach when you're about one character length away from her shielding, it seems super strong maybe because they have to play on your rhythm? As the peach in that position I feel like I would be disinclined to jump and because Falco's approach on the ground is much better than approaching an aerial peach this option seems so good. I think Peach's most obvious answer to Falco dashing away from her shield is wd back, with the options I would worry about as Falco being cc d smash or shield, but low dair seems good against both of those. Has anyone tried this option in this position? I've struggled with this position in the past because I'm always inclined to do a high sh dair.

What should Falco do after getting hit by Peach's first jab? Light shield? Keep shielding and then sh dair oos? Seems super risky to cc after the first jab because she can d smash instead of doing the second one. The only two options I find are fast enough after cc against peach are d smash and jab. But jab can get cc d smashed or shield grabbed, and d smash comes out on frame 6 while peach's leg's start their invincibility on frame 3 and her d smash comes out on frame 5. In a similar vein I'm looking for more options to do while shielding against Peach besides the mixup between full hop and roll. I've been liking that mixup less and less recently because if they read either one they get a fat punish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=411&v=UZxJMz2NfuY&t=6m50s Why does mango full hop out of pressure here??? I really cannot think of any reason why. The options that come to mind are to continue low aerial shine pressure, turn around laser shine pressure to cover roll, shine grab, and shine wd back. Seems pointless to me. Maybe it was a mistake because Mango missed his shine after the dair?

Just some things to think about on platforms and shields. Shield dropping for Falco is good because shield drop shine is godlike for starting combos, but buffering forward on the analog stick direction to do the axe/sung method for shield drop is semi risky because it means you can no longer down angle your shield to gaurd your toes. The ability to consistently shield poke falco below a plat isn't universal, you should consider how MU and your opponents when examining this risk. Shield drop is powerful enough that unless your against a very good player, or any Marth, make your opponent show that you have to gaurd your toes before you start angling down.

Light shield on platforms is super good depending on which way your bird is facing. Light shielding to get a slide off is a great tactic that if set up correctly can be safer than shield dropping and net similar quality punishes.

On tri-plat stages if you full shield and protect your toes with shield tilt I would usually try and confirm a hit on my shield before fulljumping away. Between drift, fast falling, double jump, air-dodge, landing aerial, landing laser, shine stall, etc. Falco has more than enough Mixup tool to allow him a good chance at landing safely on either the top plat or somewhere else with less pressure. This is going to be an option they're scouting for though if they notice the shield tilt, since that makes being under you way less scary.

WD back OOS to ledge is a powerful option because it gives the bird access to that sweet sweet ledge invincibility. It's a gimmick but I like to add in WD back double laser back to land on the same platform. It's risky as hell since it burns DJ for an really unsafe mixup, but I just love putting lasers in unexpected places.

SH AC Bair and Rising SH Dair both have great big hitboxes and tons of active frames to abuse sloppy offense or to catch people trying to waveland grab you as a mixup.

Be wary of shine-oos and shining on platforms in general. I find it rather hard to consistently stay grounded (I think the stick has to reset to neutral before frame 4 of the shine or you'll fall through the platform). If you're unintentionally airborne and go for a doubleshine or something a stray hit OOS from the opponent is curtains for the bird since you've unintentionally burned your DJ. Easy way to blow a stock in my experience.

Essentially with any mechanic that involved jumping from a platform hold your double jump close to your chest. With all the shine nonsense and play around wave-landing on platforms left and right it becomes far to easy for falcos to just thoughtlessly trade their DJ for an offensive mixup or movement. But when you're coming off a platform it's usually one of the only things that is going to let you keep your stock.

 

[deponepvp]

-Post Removed-

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm sure you'd benefit from reading over my discussions with Yort that we've had the past many pages.

I break Melee down into primarily a few groups of fundamentals. Neutral(and its many subcomponents), punish(comboing, edgeguarding, juggling, etc), stage position, and so on. These outlines are good, but they can cause their own problems. Neutral and punish are very interrelated because you need to know how to win neutral such that you get a good punish or at least good positioning and not just land a hit for the sake of it. It is worth thinking about in this way so you can practice learning each individual area and how they relate, but the specifics are also very worth addressing, as you get big ideas that encompass many things that lead from many small ideas and much thought.

 

[Gibbs]

Dr Peepee would you mind spot checking my reply to MambaGreenFalco? It seems like I only mentioned things you didn't about escaping platforms so now I'm second guessing myself. I'd like to retract any obviously bad advice.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I mostly agree with what you said. I'm not sure I'd recommend WD to the edge on every stage, but there are some things about edge invincibility I need to look into.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Just some things to think about on platforms and shields. Shield dropping for Falco is good because shield drop shine is godlike for starting combos, but buffering forward on the analog stick direction to do the axe/sung method for shield drop is semi risky because it means you can no longer down angle your shield to gaurd your toes. The ability to consistently shield poke falco below a plat isn't universal, you should consider how MU and your opponents when examining this risk. Shield drop is powerful enough that unless your against a very good player, or any Marth, make your opponent show that you have to gaurd your toes before you start angling down.

Light shield on platforms is super good depending on which way your bird is facing. Light shielding to get a slide off is a great tactic that if set up correctly can be safer than shield dropping and net similar quality punishes.

On tri-plat stages if you full shield and protect your toes with shield tilt I would usually try and confirm a hit on my shield before fulljumping away. Between drift, fast falling, double jump, air-dodge, landing aerial, landing laser, shine stall, etc. Falco has more than enough Mixup tool to allow him a good chance at landing safely on either the top plat or somewhere else with less pressure. This is going to be an option they're scouting for though if they notice the shield tilt, since that makes being under you way less scary.

WD back OOS to ledge is a powerful option because it gives the bird access to that sweet sweet ledge invincibility. It's a gimmick but I like to add in WD back double laser back to land on the same platform. It's risky as hell since it burns DJ for an really unsafe mixup, but I just love putting lasers in unexpected places.

SH AC Bair and Rising SH Dair both have great big hitboxes and tons of active frames to abuse sloppy offense or to catch people trying to waveland grab you as a mixup.

Be wary of shine-oos and shining on platforms in general. I find it rather hard to consistently stay grounded (I think the stick has to reset to neutral before frame 4 of the shine or you'll fall through the platform). If you're unintentionally airborne and go for a doubleshine or something a stray hit OOS from the opponent is curtains for the bird since you've unintentionally burned your DJ. Easy way to blow a stock in my experience.

Essentially with any mechanic that involved jumping from a platform hold your double jump close to your chest. With all the shine nonsense and play around wave-landing on platforms left and right it becomes far to easy for falcos to just thoughtlessly trade their DJ for an offensive mixup or movement. But when you're coming off a platform it's usually one of the only things that is going to let you keep your stock.

I know how powerful sdshine can be with Falco, but I feel like it has less application when Falco is cornered because it would only work on poorly spaced aerials. I feel like this is most applicable against a fox jumping onto the platform to pressure you.

My preferred way of sdshine is to angle my shield to the left or right during my shield stun and then shield drop down to the next notch once I'm out of shield stun. I like this way because it allows you to angle your shield against their attack and then get the axe shield drop counterattack. I think I'm gonna start shielding on platforms more in the ditto because Falco sucks at dealing with platform opponents.

In my experience getting a slide off from the opponent hitting your shield is terrible because you're inactive until you hit the ground and then you're limited to fast options if they continue to chase you like shine, jab, shield, full hop, roll etc. Am I misinformed about this? Is there a way to wiggle out and nair/dair or dj or something? Or are the strength of the options I listed good enough if you mix them up correctly.

What's the main mixup you use once they catch on to you tilting your shield down and waiting for the hit confirm? Do you do this less on fod/yoshi's because of the short top plat height?

IMO wd back to ledge isn't a gimmick but it might depend on your definition of gimmick. I think it's great because if you're in range to wd back to ledge that most likely means you can get further into stage with a good ledgedash. Do you think it's gimmicky because the opponent knows the timing of your next attack? Also I've never been a fan of up b stalling for consistent ECB because it primes the opponent even more for the timing of your next attack (although I do like up b stall to slow the game down).

I've always been wary using dj as an offensive mixup (in a vacuum) because through analysis I've found that when you burn your dj the opponent knows you have to land so then they space their whiff punish around the bird's poor aerial mobility. As a result I've never tested it in game so I haven't internalized this information from experience. Can anyone convince me that the risk-reward is worth it? Is there a way to condition or bait your opponent such that using dj as an offensive option becomes viable?

I don't usually respond to smasboards PMs, sorry


Well let's keep in mind I don't currently have a lot of shield drop application against better players, so I'll be omitting anything to do with that. I like SH into/over them and attack rarely(and faking that with SH in then DJ to top platform or whatever), drop through laser, dashing in shield their attack then shine OOS, and occasionally FH depending on matchup/conditioning for observation or a punish or just more time(FH in place I meant, but you can dash FH to top platform which is good too). You can also run back off of the edge of the platform closest to the edge and laser or aerial or empty land.

Yeah the low Dair can work there, but you have to watch for hold shield or Nair OOS. You're on a good track.

I might try to mash Dair which will get me Dtilt if they jab again or Dair if they Dsmash iirc. You can just shield DI away and/or buffer roll away since Peach would struggle to catch that. Mixed with FH away it should be pretty hard for her to reliably catch.

Yeah he either assumed he'd hit a shine there, or more likely he just messed up since his shine didn't even come out.

I love that idea of SH in and then dj to platform. Seems super strong and I will definitely apply that in the future. What did you mean by "whatever" in "SH in then DJ to top platform or whatever." Are there more mixups I can do off of the SH in?

Is dashing in shield to get a shine oos really that strong? Seems like with Falco's poor dash speed and his smaller shine than fox's, not to mention the fact that his shine is bigger behind him, it doesn't seem that strong at all. Are there certain matchups you like to use this in? Or is it more about using this once you notice a certain undershoot/walling aerial they do.

I've used run off the edge of the platform closest to the edge into laser and occasionally empty land. I've noticed myself mostly using this option vs marth. It's an option I picked up on the fly and not through analysis/shadowboxing so I'm not familiar with the specifics of it. What makes this option strong, and is it especially strong vs marth (seems good vs peach too!).

If peach continues to hold shield when you do a low dair expecting them to wd back, is there a way I can space my dair such that I overshoot if they continue to hold or get the dair if they wd back cc dsmash/shield?

I think in the past you've told me to turn around sh bair or laser as the correct answers to nair oos. Is that right? Could I also just dash back and see what they do for info? I guess this depends on the spacing of the dash back. Is there a spacing that I can dash back and make them think I'm sh lasering but also be able to react to their dash attack with shield? If they don't do anything offensive am I simply losing stage in this interaction?

 

[Gibbs]

Dr Peepee I've spent a good amount of time working on falco ledge dash stuff? Anything you want references/frame data dug up for or labbed specifically?

Also MambaGreenFalco , interesting that you mention dash back against peach, because that's something I've been thinking a lot about recently after seeing Mang0 bait a million shield grabs at summit with low laser to dashback dash in.

Druggedfox has been mentioning how he think peach is really unoptimized on twitter, specifically mentioning grounded doublejump land OOS. I've done a little labbing with this so far that isn't super rigorous, but I'm starting to suspect that a lot of falco BnB off laser that we assume to be safe at the moment might get blown up by peach in the near future.

One staple that I've heard PP recommend over and over is laser-dashback-turnaround laser. By my estimation after an upclose low laser (+1 staled at all + 3 fresh) and you need 6-10 frames of dash away to avoid shield grab and nair OOS. That puts the second laser coming out 25-32 frames after the first lowest laser (not easy to hit on its own) hits.

A frame perfect doublejump land OOS by peach puts her actionable frame 8 - 9 OOS with initial dash frames and shield stun that means we can expect an active dash attack as early as frame 18 (if lowest laser is stale). This would cleanly beat both the turnaround laser and the dash in aerial. With IMO a more favorable risk/reward for the princess when compared to a raw shield grab.

Now falco has easy counterplay to this in the form of dashback-ac bair and dash back crouch or dash back shield and shine OOS, but I think in current play those options would look stupid today because you're mixing up for punishes no peach is incorporating right now. But if/when they start doing it suddenly falco stuff that was considered setplay safe shield pressure is now a mixup.

I'll try and record some stuff on 20xx to test this stuff out, but it could make the MU more dangerous than it already is.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I know how powerful sdshine can be with Falco, but I feel like it has less application when Falco is cornered because it would only work on poorly spaced aerials. I feel like this is most applicable against a fox jumping onto the platform to pressure you.

My preferred way of sdshine is to angle my shield to the left or right during my shield stun and then shield drop down to the next notch once I'm out of shield stun. I like this way because it allows you to angle your shield against their attack and then get the axe shield drop counterattack. I think I'm gonna start shielding on platforms more in the ditto because Falco sucks at dealing with platform opponents.

In my experience getting a slide off from the opponent hitting your shield is terrible because you're inactive until you hit the ground and then you're limited to fast options if they continue to chase you like shine, jab, shield, full hop, roll etc. Am I misinformed about this? Is there a way to wiggle out and nair/dair or dj or something? Or are the strength of the options I listed good enough if you mix them up correctly.

What's the main mixup you use once they catch on to you tilting your shield down and waiting for the hit confirm? Do you do this less on fod/yoshi's because of the short top plat height?

IMO wd back to ledge isn't a gimmick but it might depend on your definition of gimmick. I think it's great because if you're in range to wd back to ledge that most likely means you can get further into stage with a good ledgedash. Do you think it's gimmicky because the opponent knows the timing of your next attack? Also I've never been a fan of up b stalling for consistent ECB because it primes the opponent even more for the timing of your next attack (although I do like up b stall to slow the game down).

I've always been wary using dj as an offensive mixup (in a vacuum) because through analysis I've found that when you burn your dj the opponent knows you have to land so then they space their whiff punish around the bird's poor aerial mobility. As a result I've never tested it in game so I haven't internalized this information from experience. Can anyone convince me that the risk-reward is worth it? Is there a way to condition or bait your opponent such that using dj as an offensive option becomes viable?



I love that idea of SH in and then dj to platform. Seems super strong and I will definitely apply that in the future. What did you mean by "whatever" in "SH in then DJ to top platform or whatever." Are there more mixups I can do off of the SH in?

Is dashing in shield to get a shine oos really that strong? Seems like with Falco's poor dash speed and his smaller shine than fox's, not to mention the fact that his shine is bigger behind him, it doesn't seem that strong at all. Are there certain matchups you like to use this in? Or is it more about using this once you notice a certain undershoot/walling aerial they do.

I've used run off the edge of the platform closest to the edge into laser and occasionally empty land. I've noticed myself mostly using this option vs marth. It's an option I picked up on the fly and not through analysis/shadowboxing so I'm not familiar with the specifics of it. What makes this option strong, and is it especially strong vs marth (seems good vs peach too!).

If peach continues to hold shield when you do a low dair expecting them to wd back, is there a way I can space my dair such that I overshoot if they continue to hold or get the dair if they wd back cc dsmash/shield?

I think in the past you've told me to turn around sh bair or laser as the correct answers to nair oos. Is that right? Could I also just dash back and see what they do for info? I guess this depends on the spacing of the dash back. Is there a spacing that I can dash back and make them think I'm sh lasering but also be able to react to their dash attack with shield? If they don't do anything offensive am I simply losing stage in this interaction?

You can SH in slightly or fully, drift and FF at different points and from different starting spaces, they can be in different places and move as you move, and you can DJ at many points....etc.

I mostly use dash in shield vs spacies since they want to get on your shield but often want to get low, so if you run in you mess them up. You can see Mango use this more.

Run off opposite edge is great since most people expect attacks or FHs away or shields on platforms so it's pretty different. That helps you get laser out, and vs Marth/Peach/most characters they aren't quick or having enough range to cover everything so getting laser out this way then gives you pretty good advantage, and certainly moreso if they rushed in to counter another option and now they're close to you with this laser stun advantage.

You could SH past them and hit the back of their shield I guess. You could also just opt for laser instead of Dair if you react to their WD back, though I guess that could be more likely to be DA'd. Vs Nair OOS, you can laser then attack vs grab vs wait/dash back and that mixup will encourage them to pop it often enough. Waiting more early on can help you see when they like to do it as well as discourage it, but you can laser grab a little more often to beat it if fairly close iirc. Maybe also laser JC shine but I haven't tested that.

Dr Peepee I've spent a good amount of time working on falco ledge dash stuff? Anything you want references/frame data dug up for or labbed specifically?

Also MambaGreenFalco , interesting that you mention dash back against peach, because that's something I've been thinking a lot about recently after seeing Mang0 bait a million shield grabs at summit with low laser to dashback dash in.

Druggedfox has been mentioning how he think peach is really unoptimized on twitter, specifically mentioning grounded doublejump land OOS. I've done a little labbing with this so far that isn't super rigorous, but I'm starting to suspect that a lot of falco BnB off laser that we assume to be safe at the moment might get blown up by peach in the near future.

One staple that I've heard PP recommend over and over is laser-dashback-turnaround laser. By my estimation after an upclose low laser (+1 staled at all + 3 fresh) and you need 6-10 frames of dash away to avoid shield grab and nair OOS. That puts the second laser coming out 25-32 frames after the first lowest laser (not easy to hit on its own) hits.

A frame perfect doublejump land OOS by peach puts her actionable frame 8 - 9 OOS with initial dash frames and shield stun that means we can expect an active dash attack as early as frame 18 (if lowest laser is stale). This would cleanly beat both the turnaround laser and the dash in aerial. With IMO a more favorable risk/reward for the princess when compared to a raw shield grab.

Now falco has easy counterplay to this in the form of dashback-ac bair and dash back crouch or dash back shield and shine OOS, but I think in current play those options would look stupid today because you're mixing up for punishes no peach is incorporating right now. But if/when they start doing it suddenly falco stuff that was considered setplay safe shield pressure is now a mixup.

I'll try and record some stuff on 20xx to test this stuff out, but it could make the MU more dangerous than it already is.

Can you edgedash and/or SH past where spacies shield drop Bair? What about edgedash dash FH over them without getting hit by shield drop Bair? What about FH in place? This is also relevant vs Sheik Fair of course. I know it varies by stage but I'll take BF as the main example if you know it.

I don't like laser dash back laser so much vs Peach's shield since she can FH float out of it, but I do get what you mean.

 

[Gibbs]

I know how powerful sdshine can be with Falco, but I feel like it has less application when Falco is cornered because it would only work on poorly spaced aerials. I feel like this is most applicable against a fox jumping onto the platform to pressure you.

My preferred way of sdshine is to angle my shield to the left or right during my shield stun and then shield drop down to the next notch once I'm out of shield stun. I like this way because it allows you to angle your shield against their attack and then get the axe shield drop counterattack. I think I'm gonna start shielding on platforms more in the ditto because Falco sucks at dealing with platform opponents.

In my experience getting a slide off from the opponent hitting your shield is terrible because you're inactive until you hit the ground and then you're limited to fast options if they continue to chase you like shine, jab, shield, full hop, roll etc. Am I misinformed about this? Is there a way to wiggle out and nair/dair or dj or something? Or are the strength of the options I listed good enough if you mix them up correctly.

What's the main mixup you use once they catch on to you tilting your shield down and waiting for the hit confirm? Do you do this less on fod/yoshi's because of the short top plat height?

IMO wd back to ledge isn't a gimmick but it might depend on your definition of gimmick. I think it's great because if you're in range to wd back to ledge that most likely means you can get further into stage with a good ledgedash. Do you think it's gimmicky because the opponent knows the timing of your next attack? Also I've never been a fan of up b stalling for consistent ECB because it primes the opponent even more for the timing of your next attack (although I do like up b stall to slow the game down).

I've always been wary using dj as an offensive mixup (in a vacuum) because through analysis I've found that when you burn your dj the opponent knows you have to land so then they space their whiff punish around the bird's poor aerial mobility. As a result I've never tested it in game so I haven't internalized this information from experience. Can anyone convince me that the risk-reward is worth it? Is there a way to condition or bait your opponent such that using dj as an offensive option becomes viable?



I love that idea of SH in and then dj to platform. Seems super strong and I will definitely apply that in the future. What did you mean by "whatever" in "SH in then DJ to top platform or whatever." Are there more mixups I can do off of the SH in?

Is dashing in shield to get a shine oos really that strong? Seems like with Falco's poor dash speed and his smaller shine than fox's, not to mention the fact that his shine is bigger behind him, it doesn't seem that strong at all. Are there certain matchups you like to use this in? Or is it more about using this once you notice a certain undershoot/walling aerial they do.

I've used run off the edge of the platform closest to the edge into laser and occasionally empty land. I've noticed myself mostly using this option vs marth. It's an option I picked up on the fly and not through analysis/shadowboxing so I'm not familiar with the specifics of it. What makes this option strong, and is it especially strong vs marth (seems good vs peach too!).

If peach continues to hold shield when you do a low dair expecting them to wd back, is there a way I can space my dair such that I overshoot if they continue to hold or get the dair if they wd back cc dsmash/shield?

I think in the past you've told me to turn around sh bair or laser as the correct answers to nair oos. Is that right? Could I also just dash back and see what they do for info? I guess this depends on the spacing of the dash back. Is there a spacing that I can dash back and make them think I'm sh lasering but also be able to react to their dash attack with shield? If they don't do anything offensive am I simply losing stage in this interaction?

So this might be a misconception on my part, but I think trying to wait for the shieldstun and hitlag to angle the shield to the side before going for the notch isn't something that can be done on reaction, and I'm pretty sure angling the shield low enough to cover falcos toes locks you out of the Axe method altogether. We'll probably need to call upon one of the melee super nerds to clarify. What sort of pentagram and sacrifices are necessary to attract Kadano's attention to a thread?

The Gimmick isn't the wd off to ledge part, it was the platform double lasers I like. I've seen zhu do it sometimes at the start of a match of PS, it gets nice laser heights on floaties on spawn. Doing it from disadvantage is just a dumb yolo thing I do sometimes.

The best play against down angled shield from below is probably just to wait till the bubble gets smaller and try and call out the falco's jump timing or how play chicken with how long they hold the shield. Marth and peach have really fast ways to get to the side plats and grab you with DJ no impact land (maybe a dreamland specific tech? I'm not sure Dr Peepee probably knows) and Peach's doublejump land on side plats (timing way easier than the marth one so expect this more). So the mixups are less on the falco's part and more on the attacker who has advantage. Roll and spot dodge are still there for the bird but they feel nerfed on the plats. I like to just mix up my jump away timings.

Falco's platform shine is really really good at poking falco's shield, so that's something both players should be looking for and to gaurd against in the ditto.

 

[Gibbs]

Can you edgedash and/or SH past where spacies shield drop Bair? What about edgedash dash FH over them without getting hit by shield drop Bair? What about FH in place? This is also relevant vs Sheik Fair of course. I know it varies by stage but I'll take BF as the main example if you know it.

A perfect ledge dash nets falco 14 (I think, its one less than fox anyhow) frames which are actionable after wavedash. I think max distance wavedash might net you less actionable frames but more distance past where the spacies want to bair. At the very least ledgedash shield is free with any quality ledgedash and then you can buffer roll in to center stage. If they're waiting to shield drop you this will almost certainly get you to center pretty free.

I know you can invincible jump shine after ledgedash too, but I don't know for sure if you can FH shine someone on the side plat even with perfect execution. On yoshi's or stadium you might be able to get that free shield poke upsmash on falco if they're holding to the side trying to buffer SD bair.

The usually the length of the WD you choose from the ledge doesn't impact the amount of invincibility you get. This is with the caveat that we're not talking about going for the perfect fully invincible LD because then the stick angle must be really precise in order to not SD because inputting the WD earliest possible frame from ledge needs a shallow enough angle to not send your ECB too low and therefore making you SD. The specifics of getting the full invincibility are actually kind of wack and ECB distortion and how frequently the game updates it is the weird black magic aspects of LDing that makes it feel random at times. That's why most top foxes firefox stall once before LDing, it makes the entire endeavor more consistent by waiting out ECB distortion jank.

But yeah falco has lots and lots of tools from LD to space around a spacie waiting to bair from plat. Druggedfox actually goes over this exact scenario with one of his falco students on youtube here https://youtu.be/vM9xqp8BgNo The first like 4 minutes of this lesson are covering the exact scenarios you have questions about. And Druggedfox is way better at explaining all of this than I am so I probably should have led with this vid lol.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

So this might be a misconception on my part, but I think trying to wait for the shieldstun and hitlag to angle the shield to the side before going for the notch isn't something that can be done on reaction, and I'm pretty sure angling the shield low enough to cover falcos toes locks you out of the Axe method altogether. We'll probably need to call upon one of the melee super nerds to clarify. What sort of pentagram and sacrifices are necessary to attract Kadano's attention to a thread?

The Gimmick isn't the wd off to ledge part, it was the platform double lasers I like. I've seen zhu do it sometimes at the start of a match of PS, it gets nice laser heights on floaties on spawn. Doing it from disadvantage is just a dumb yolo thing I do sometimes.

The best play against down angled shield from below is probably just to wait till the bubble gets smaller and try and call out the falco's jump timing or how play chicken with how long they hold the shield. Marth and peach have really fast ways to get to the side plats and grab you with DJ no impact land (maybe a dreamland specific tech? I'm not sure Dr Peepee probably knows) and Peach's doublejump land on side plats (timing way easier than the marth one so expect this more). So the mixups are less on the falco's part and more on the attacker who has advantage. Roll and spot dodge are still there for the bird but they feel nerfed on the plats. I like to just mix up my jump away timings.

Falco's platform shine is really really good at poking falco's shield, so that's something both players should be looking for and to gaurd against in the ditto.

I'm sorry I should have clarified, I use this technique not on reaction. It's easy to do with practice when you know the rhythm of your opponents attacks. This makes it especially good to use offensively similar to PP mentioning earlier running in shield to got a shine oos. There might be a way to do it on reaction by doing a really quick motion of tilting your stick slightly and then going down in a quartercircle motion slightly or something like that. IDK I'll test this in friendlies next time I play with my friend.

I wonder why Zhu did wd back dj lasers when he could have just run forward double jump laser? Either way they're probably the same result because there's most likely no way a floaty will reach you from there.

Yeah poking with shine is one of my main options against platform opponents because it seems the only other way to directly interact with them
is full hop fade away bair to top plat or sh uair. I barely use sh uair anymore but it's due to something I internalized and not something I realized verbally, maybe because it's bad against shield drop? Any other ways you deal with platform opponents as falco?

You can SH in slightly or fully, drift and FF at different points and from different starting spaces, they can be in different places and move as you move, and you can DJ at many points....etc.

I mostly use dash in shield vs spacies since they want to get on your shield but often want to get low, so if you run in you mess them up. You can see Mango use this more.

Run off opposite edge is great since most people expect attacks or FHs away or shields on platforms so it's pretty different. That helps you get laser out, and vs Marth/Peach/most characters they aren't quick or having enough range to cover everything so getting laser out this way then gives you pretty good advantage, and certainly moreso if they rushed in to counter another option and now they're close to you with this laser stun advantage.

You could SH past them and hit the back of their shield I guess. You could also just opt for laser instead of Dair if you react to their WD back, though I guess that could be more likely to be DA'd. Vs Nair OOS, you can laser then attack vs grab vs wait/dash back and that mixup will encourage them to pop it often enough. Waiting more early on can help you see when they like to do it as well as discourage it, but you can laser grab a little more often to beat it if fairly close iirc. Maybe also laser JC shine but I haven't tested that.



Can you edgedash and/or SH past where spacies shield drop Bair? What about edgedash dash FH over them without getting hit by shield drop Bair? What about FH in place? This is also relevant vs Sheik Fair of course. I know it varies by stage but I'll take BF as the main example if you know it.

I don't like laser dash back laser so much vs Peach's shield since she can FH float out of it, but I do get what you mean.

You mostly use run in shield against spacies, but is it viable against a sheik/marth that likes to sh a lot in neutral? Would they be able to easily react to your dash in shield by drifting back with their fair? I feel like what would probably happen is they would react to your dash forwards with drift back anyway expecting the SHFFL, and if you shield it then they just end up in a better position with slight advantage on your shield. Would dash forward shield unlock any mixups that a SHFFL doesn't already?

I preferred dair to laser if I react to a peach wding back because I think laser is worse against d smash. Am I just lasering wrong?

You're big on options that give you info of the opponent. When you do these options with the main purpose of gleaning info, are you consciously logging the reaction of the opponent or simply playing as normal and letting yourself log and adapt naturally.

I really want to explore laser more, and the first thing I'm having trouble with seems frustratingly simple to me; when to give up stage to get lasers going vs when to hold stage (which of course can be done with laser if they play passively) but I'm thinking that the two are mutually exclusive. Is there a concept or rule I can start from to start exploring the duality between these two? In your opinion is there another concept I should be exploring that's equally or as more fundamental to laser? I've been doing the lasers in place/dash back lasers while thinking about the properties of those like you told me to do about a month ago, which has really helped my internalized understanding of how they work, but now I guess I'm looking for when to laser, and why.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sheik tends to do later Fair out of SH anyway so it doesn't seem worth it to me. Marth sometimes does rising Fair so that can be worth, but if he fades back with it then it also won't do you much good. So overall I think it's riskier. Dash forward shield doesn't unlock much, but if you dash in WD down you can get closer while seeing how they may have handled a SHFFL approach or assumed you'd dash back/fake/laser or something.

Dair is absolutely preferable to laser if you confirm WD back. Laser in place or slightly forward keeps you from being hit and gives advantage vs more things though normally.

You do it consciously in training until it's more automatic. If you have a hard time remembering, then you need to train more and/or use time between stocks/games to go back and remember what happened. In the heat of a match when you're fighting there's little you can consciously think about.

You give up stage if you think they will come into you, or you want to pull them in/make them feel safe. You hold your ground if you want to counterhit their approach or don't think they will approach. It might help to think about what giving up stage does for you and how that combines with laser, and then apply such things to individual matchups.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Sheik tends to do later Fair out of SH anyway so it doesn't seem worth it to me. Marth sometimes does rising Fair so that can be worth, but if he fades back with it then it also won't do you much good. So overall I think it's riskier. Dash forward shield doesn't unlock much, but if you dash in WD down you can get closer while seeing how they may have handled a SHFFL approach or assumed you'd dash back/fake/laser or something.

Dair is absolutely preferable to laser if you confirm WD back. Laser in place or slightly forward keeps you from being hit and gives advantage vs more things though normally.

You do it consciously in training until it's more automatic. If you have a hard time remembering, then you need to train more and/or use time between stocks/games to go back and remember what happened. In the heat of a match when you're fighting there's little you can consciously think about.

You give up stage if you think they will come into you, or you want to pull them in/make them feel safe. You hold your ground if you want to counterhit their approach or don't think they will approach. It might help to think about what giving up stage does for you and how that combines with laser, and then apply such things to individual matchups.

Speaking of Marth's rising fair, how should Falco deal with that after Marth gets hit by a laser? I feel like Marths use this at a range of about one Marth wd plus 1ish character length, right?

When consciously logging info in training, do you think I should stick to one or two super common options to start off? Like dash back wait, or laser wait, or something similar?

How do you modify your play against Falco when the opposing Falco is at low percent? It's super frusturating to land a dair on them only to get shined without them even ccing my dair. It's even more frusturating because then I'm not even sure how I can convert into a shine at low percents, and I also feel like I can't directly approach from above.

I find it's pretty common to use your double jump to avoid their getup attack, but if they don't use getup attack, then I try to go for a ff mixup dair which usually fails. What do you think of using shine stall or air dodge to avoid their getup attack and punish?

Do you think there's any merit to analyzing people who aren't at the top level? (besides my own matches of course)

Do you meditate in tourney matches? Or do you only use meditation outside of playing to make focusing easier? If you don’t meditate then how do you go about focusing in game?

Are there ways outside of meditation to help ingame mentality?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Depends on how low to the ground Marth is when he gets hit by laser. Sometimes you can laser Nair him iirc, but either way you can laser his landing in most cases and take advantage from there, or hit/grab Marth's landing lag if he's fairly close and drifting in but not close enough to hit iirc. It's a weird interaction I haven't fully mapped out but that's how I remember it going.

Just start with whatever you think is best. Stuff that abuses Falco's strong options like laser and his aerial threats, so stuff like laser dash in WD/dash back can often be a good place to start.

Yeah that is a very particular problem. Sometimes I just opt to space a hit on them so I keep advantage and damage, sometimes I just try to set up late hits in roundabout ways, sometimes I go for more grabs to dislodge them, sometimes I try to Nair them out of their SH so I can punish that way, sometimes I try to get them to come into me so I counterattack them...etc. And yeah you can approach from above, especially into the front diagonal of Falco since he can't really cover that(using Dair for example). Coming down with Bair is also really strong since that will also beat Utilt if reasonably spaced, and laser can work to make these threats stronger and give you more places to attack from.

Getup attack on platform? I just follow where they go and FH shine it. On BF/DL with super high top platforms I might just get up there and do the crouch thing and mix in shield sometimes. People doing that DJ stuff give up advantage and make it too complicated imo. Shine stall and airdodge can work but not so reliably in my experience.

Yes there is absolutely an advantage in analyzing people not top level. They will have simpler gameplans that you can understand and pull from better, and also more clearly show pitfalls to avoid. Very important.

I meditate between stocks or games occasionally as seen at Apex 2015. Of course I might do it between sets too, but I don't think that's usually so necessary in my experience. You focus in game through physical training such as exercise and you also condition your body well with sleep hydration etc to function properly. Mentally, you also want to be cultivating a strong connection to the game and your goals so you can perform your best and stay focused even when challenged. Many would also benefit from addressing psychological blockages to perform better with less distractions I believe.

 

[Meck]

Hi Dr Peepee
It seems like the more that I play, the faster that I run out of stamina. I feel like I can only give about 40 minutes of good, productive Melee practice before my brain gets fried out. I usually like taking a 5-minute break but I usually do not feel any better by then. I used not have this problem and I think it might have started occurring because I started thinking more in game.
Do you have advice on how improve stamina?

My local Marth is starting to use jab whenever I laser him. I would commonly laser aerial. The jab beats out most of my approaches except for dair. I just have no idea what to do when I get hit by jab and I end up really close to him. I feel like my best option is to buffer roll away but that seems reactable for the Marth. Do you have any advice on what I should be doing after I get hit by the jab?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah that'll happen more as you think more in matches. Try not to overthink and focus on one objective at a time, so you don't overload yourself. It also takes time to build up stamina. You may also want to do physical conditioning if you don't already to help with this.

You can laser Fsmash, laser DA, laser high Dair(sometimes), or laser wait/dash back then go in. You can also take the jab if it's not tippered and have advantage usually. If you do get tippered by jab out of the air, it's not good. Mixing Ftilt/DA or a yolo Dair with roll and hold shield(and then roll/spotdodge/Dair/FH mixup out of it) FH, and WD back are probably among your best bets.

 

[Meck]

I mean specifically if I mess up my spacing, the Marth hits me with jab in the air, and I land right next to him. How would I escape the situation? I seems like I do not have many options if do get hit and land near him. Should I just try to buffer spot dodge or roll in hopes the Marth will mess up?

 

[Dr Peepee]

If it's a strong hit, then I outlined that. If it's a weak hit you can sometimes shine his arm or run and grab or Ftilt or roll or FH, yeah. The weak hit/closer position puts you in a much better place to counter threaten Marth.

 

[Gibbs]

So maybe this is just where I'm at in my development, but something I've been focusing a lot on in my analysis is top falco usage of shield in semi-neutral stance. How often the bubble pops up seems to be something that defines how a MU can play out. Mang0 specifically used shield in neutral a lot against falcon and fox to scout out approach options in the neutral at the edge of the threat range. This is in contrast to the Marth MU where I almost never see him use shield. While it's probably almost as beneficial to focus on almost any other neutral tool, like laser or dash back, or aerial in place, etc. For some reason, to me at the moment. it seems shield usage frequency might be a good mete-metric to determine how the bird is supposed to play the MU. I think it says more than just the relative reward off of grab in the MU.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Depends on how low to the ground Marth is when he gets hit by laser. Sometimes you can laser Nair him iirc, but either way you can laser his landing in most cases and take advantage from there, or hit/grab Marth's landing lag if he's fairly close and drifting in but not close enough to hit iirc. It's a weird interaction I haven't fully mapped out but that's how I remember it going.

Just start with whatever you think is best. Stuff that abuses Falco's strong options like laser and his aerial threats, so stuff like laser dash in WD/dash back can often be a good place to start.

Yeah that is a very particular problem. Sometimes I just opt to space a hit on them so I keep advantage and damage, sometimes I just try to set up late hits in roundabout ways, sometimes I go for more grabs to dislodge them, sometimes I try to Nair them out of their SH so I can punish that way, sometimes I try to get them to come into me so I counterattack them...etc. And yeah you can approach from above, especially into the front diagonal of Falco since he can't really cover that(using Dair for example). Coming down with Bair is also really strong since that will also beat Utilt if reasonably spaced, and laser can work to make these threats stronger and give you more places to attack from.

Getup attack on platform? I just follow where they go and FH shine it. On BF/DL with super high top platforms I might just get up there and do the crouch thing and mix in shield sometimes. People doing that DJ stuff give up advantage and make it too complicated imo. Shine stall and airdodge can work but not so reliably in my experience.

Yes there is absolutely an advantage in analyzing people not top level. They will have simpler gameplans that you can understand and pull from better, and also more clearly show pitfalls to avoid. Very important.

I meditate between stocks or games occasionally as seen at Apex 2015. Of course I might do it between sets too, but I don't think that's usually so necessary in my experience. You focus in game through physical training such as exercise and you also condition your body well with sleep hydration etc to function properly. Mentally, you also want to be cultivating a strong connection to the game and your goals so you can perform your best and stay focused even when challenged. Many would also benefit from addressing psychological blockages to perform better with less distractions I believe.

Do you think to abuse Falco's poor up diagonal coverage I can dair and then land in front of them to threaten grab or d tilt more?

I asked the question about analyzing people that aren't top level from a similar question I posed to ginger, "What should people look for when analyzing you?" He responded that people should just be analyzing Mango instead. I understood his point but I think his answer lacked some nuance I was looking for. Do you personally think there's a reason to analyze people at Ginger's level where they aren't at the tippy top but still super good?

I shadowboxed the full hop fair marth thing and I found that while laser did feel like the best option, I wanted to find ways to deal with it that didn't make me lose stage. I thought of maybe running through them and then stop your run with a crouch and then up tilt? Or maybe turn around wavedash up tilt/bair. Although in my experience wavedashing into marth seems like a good idea in theory but then never works as well as I expect it to in game. I like the cc aspect of it and the fact that you're lower to the ground but then it always turns out too slow and reactable.

What do you think of using shield aggressively against falcon? Seems like since he relies so hard on sh in neutral this would be strong. Run up shield check into dair also seems strong. Would Falco ever get stuck in shield because he wants to get as close to Falcon as possible but at the same time avoid Falcon's amazing speed, and as a result shield too preemptively? What should Falco do if this happens? WD back and full hop is the first option I think of but Falcon's like to overshoot nair so idk. Maybe it's just a mixup between wd forward, dair oos, and wd back/full hop?

When do you try to convert the info you get in game into openings? Obviously people have multiple answers to the same situations so that's why I ask. Is it just a feeling thing, like when you feel comfortable going in?

What do you think of spotdodge in general? It comes out super quickly, but it doesn't last long and it doesn't move your character anywhere. So I feel like even if my opponent doesn't bite then they can better react/prepare for the next interaction. The better the get I feel like I've used it less, and I've almost entirely eliminated it from my game at this point. To me it feels like a read.

How do you do sh dair against a fox/falco riding the wall with their up b trying to sweetspot the ledge? I trade a lot and drop edgeguards because of it.

How do you go about getting down from the top platform on fod against marth? I've struggled with this especially when the side platforms are down; marth can sh uair so easily and since the stage is so small feels like dropping down can be easily punished by marth either by him taking space or getting a hit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Getting Dair from high up is great, and threatening grab and Dtilt can be okay but risky from those positions if they're just hitting shield. Better to either space and then do an aerial mixup or hit close and do a shine mixup usually I'd say(vs Marth who we were talking about at least).

Yeah it's still worth analyzing Ginger I believe. He may have been answering more for himself. It could help to see how he approaches things differently and also you can more clearly see his mistakes so you can learn from them too. Being able to understand players can be more valuable than just getting the absolute best stuff sometimes.

You can FH Nair/Dair/Fair/Bair into the Marth too, maybe that'd help.

Shielding Falcon's aerials doesn't seem like it'd give great reward to me unless you get super close and react to the first hit of Nair hitting your shield. Usually Falcon doesn't let that happen though. If you can make it work then go for it.

You convert when you feel like it. You can do big conversions like calling out their option, or smaller ones where you take stage or get a little damage with it. Waiting to convert also gives them more confidence in an option, so that can be an advantage as well.

Spotdodge is great, but I haven't seen any super great high profile use for it. It just seems like a way to occasionally botch opponent tech chases or make a spacie miss an L-cancel. There are other things I think about trying like mixing it in during spaced shield pressure or something just to make the opponent move, but that's not exactly a normal use of it lol.

You can rising Dair from the edge at various times vs their up-B and mix that with just holding the edge/rolling up. Onstage, you can do it in place or retreating Dair and the onstage ones are more likely to trade since you don't have invincibility. I think the stronger hit doesn't trade very often so that might be easier to use, and iirc fading back seems to keep me from trading a lot as well.

Depends on where Marth is. Dropping with laser is still good, and because it's a small stage you can threaten runoff/WD off/SH off aerial at Marth more easily since he can't dash back, though of course he can still aerial at you. If you have more specifics about where the Marth might be and what he's using then that'd help. For Uair, you might be able to shield drop it I don't know. I just shield it then SH in place to see if I can force a flail or WD off to make him act quickly. If I can get Marth in lag I can hit him or get down safely.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Getting Dair from high up is great, and threatening grab and Dtilt can be okay but risky from those positions if they're just hitting shield. Better to either space and then do an aerial mixup or hit close and do a shine mixup usually I'd say(vs Marth who we were talking about at least).

Yeah it's still worth analyzing Ginger I believe. He may have been answering more for himself. It could help to see how he approaches things differently and also you can more clearly see his mistakes so you can learn from them too. Being able to understand players can be more valuable than just getting the absolute best stuff sometimes.

You can FH Nair/Dair/Fair/Bair into the Marth too, maybe that'd help.

Shielding Falcon's aerials doesn't seem like it'd give great reward to me unless you get super close and react to the first hit of Nair hitting your shield. Usually Falcon doesn't let that happen though. If you can make it work then go for it.

You convert when you feel like it. You can do big conversions like calling out their option, or smaller ones where you take stage or get a little damage with it. Waiting to convert also gives them more confidence in an option, so that can be an advantage as well.

Spotdodge is great, but I haven't seen any super great high profile use for it. It just seems like a way to occasionally botch opponent tech chases or make a spacie miss an L-cancel. There are other things I think about trying like mixing it in during spaced shield pressure or something just to make the opponent move, but that's not exactly a normal use of it lol.

You can rising Dair from the edge at various times vs their up-B and mix that with just holding the edge/rolling up. Onstage, you can do it in place or retreating Dair and the onstage ones are more likely to trade since you don't have invincibility. I think the stronger hit doesn't trade very often so that might be easier to use, and iirc fading back seems to keep me from trading a lot as well.

Depends on where Marth is. Dropping with laser is still good, and because it's a small stage you can threaten runoff/WD off/SH off aerial at Marth more easily since he can't dash back, though of course he can still aerial at you. If you have more specifics about where the Marth might be and what he's using then that'd help. For Uair, you might be able to shield drop it I don't know. I just shield it then SH in place to see if I can force a flail or WD off to make him act quickly. If I can get Marth in lag I can hit him or get down safely.

Sorry I was talking about the high dair (approaching diagonally) in the context of the falco ditto. I was thinking more like approaching after a FH/platform while they're grounded?

You listed basically all of falco's fh aerials against the fh fairing marth, is bair or dair better for potential follow ups? I guess bair is better at low to mid percents, and actually I can't really see getting a tech chase follow up off of dair because you're dairing them on the way up of Falco's fh.

What makes spotdodge good in your opinion?

I prefer to edgeguard from stage because it seems better against them teching; down angle d tilt against side b, laser against another up b, sh dair against a higher side b etc. Also do you ever use getup attack instead of holding edge/rolling up because it covers them going slightly higher? When you retreating dair can you explain to me in detail how you execute that? What do you do if they end up teching on stage inwards? I normally sh dair or f smash to cover that.

In the fod position, I'm thinking while the marth is directly under the top plat. Seems like he gets the most coverage from this spot. Feels like his sh uair is amazing which limits me from approaching directly by falling through the platform, (although at the same time for some reason picturing a short hop off the side of the platform directly down with laser/empty land feels strong to me, not sure why). This question came from this set https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqlI3CJVQZY at 1:45 where nintnt was up thrown to the top plat and after eating a poorly spaced up air i ended up pausing and thinking about the position from a more neutral position where the marth isn't in lag.