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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Ukulele

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- False assumption was fine; I get where it came from. I say rare to TRUE followups, not followups in general.
What are you going to define as a true follow up? Hitstun while hitbox connects only? With hitlag/tdi influence (you can tdi out of the laser trajectory as many characters at many percents period 99 percent positive on this; that seems to avoid follow ups for some characters, as well as the sdi. but it doesn't always work, as ive claimed) you can still get multiple true follow ups how this is defined from testing. I also want you to recall that you did say "or meaningful damage" you can get a lot of pseudo follow ups as well/good positionings for meaningful damage consistently. We could go more in depth on the claim of meaningful dmg

edit: we still never touched upon probability of combo defense with some details tho to where you said it was rare

Because of lasers and how SDI-able they are from the uthrow, a lot of stuff is a baby read mixed with a reaction instead of just a true reaction to get the followup. For example, I'm pretty sure Fox can shine out of basically any uthrow you try to do before like 10%, but trying to shine him there isn't that bad since it's tight timing and a missing it isn't too uncommon + if they just shine in mid-air cuz I did it on a different timing then it works out in my favor.
ye

- From what I remember when we had a more in-depth discussion about dthrow vs Fox before, if he DIs out a bit, then he can reliably shine you before you're even actionable again. And honestly, if people can consistently tech the dthrow, then you can with a bit of training consistently DI out and shine or go for any number of things. Feels really cheesy and risky to me.
oh shiet I'm dumb then. link?

edit2: you don't go into kd with fox until like 100 percent though? so how is the second part possible

I always appreciate these conversations cuz I enjoy seeing other people's views on the game, esp. as I'm still trying to mold my own.
yeah I'm still rly new so I try to discuss the game as much as I can
 
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FE_Hector

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oh shiet I'm dumb then. link?
I don't remember when I saw it said (here or in the Discord), but you can ask lab monsters who have tested and get a way more conclusive answer than I could provide.
What are you going to define as a true follow up? Hitstun while hitbox connects only? With hitlag/tdi influence (you can tdi out of the laser trajectory as many characters at many percents period 99 percent positive on this; that seems to avoid follow ups for some characters, as well as the sdi. but it doesn't always work, as ive claimed) you can still get multiple true follow ups how this is defined from testing. I also want you to recall that you did say "or meaningful damage" you can get a lot of pseudo follow ups as well/good positionings for meaningful damage consistently. We could go more in depth on the claim of meaningful dmg
True followup/ true combo in my mind is hitting them again while they're still in hitstun. Falcocord has a lot of lab monsters who are picky with wording, so this is just the basic definition I've assumed. You can definitely get true followups, but they're also affected by how they get hit by the lasers, what they do with that (SDI), and whether or not you get a bit of a read on what they want to do.

As far as the "meaningful damage" part, I mostly refer to getting an actually decent combo. Pseudo-comboing is something I can sometimes do well, but often just entirely fail at unless I've already got a fair amount of momentum on my side. I end up over-extending or not wanting to do something for fear of whiffing. As an easy example of this, let's say a Fox just missed a tech on a platform. I don't want to try and just immediately jump up and shine waveland that missed tech because I don't want to have to guess. Instead, I'd *prefer* to just react to what he does and shine waveland then, but my reaction time for situations like that isn't good enough yet to actually get the followup.

There's other situations like these that I just don't feel entirely comfortable in, one of them being dair techchasing on platforms that PPMD mentioned. It just feels really awkward for me and it's really hard to get the followups more often than not. Yeah the game is hard, but still.
 

Ukulele

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edit your responses to my edits in and then ill edit the whole response in lol

FE_Hector FE_Hector

btw I went and tested the fox kd thing. he didn't go into kd even at decent 100+ ranges????? I definitely must be missing something here :thinking:
 
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FE_Hector

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edit your responses to my edits in and then ill edit the whole response in lol

FE_Hector FE_Hector

btw I went and tested the fox kd thing. he didn't go into kd even at decent 100+ ranges????? I definitely must be missing something here :thinking:
Well I was saying he can DI out a bit and shine you out of it. Then I was saying that people (w/ other chars) can consistently tech the dthrow, so if a Fox trains themselves to DI out a bit and just shine, then it's perfectly doable. If you didn't know, bad math is the reason that he's not knocked down till like 120% by dthrow. (Fun fact along these lines: Bowsers dthrow on Puff doesn't do any %)
 

Ukulele

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Well I was saying he can DI out a bit and shine you out of it. Then I was saying that people (w/ other chars) can consistently tech the dthrow, so if a Fox trains themselves to DI out a bit and just shine, then it's perfectly doable. If you didn't know, bad math is the reason that he's not knocked down till like 120% by dthrow. (Fun fact along these lines: Bowsers dthrow on Puff doesn't do any %)
Well, don't you remember what I said about d throw? Platforms, ledge d throw and such. I knew everyone else could tech it but thought you were implying fox could as well. I'm in falcocord and every character discord actually so I will definitely ask about I in regards to him.

>True followup/ true combo in my mind is hitting them again while they're still in hitstun.

so same page...

>Falcocord has a lot of lab monsters who are picky with wording, so this is just the basic definition I've assumed.

some people have rly weird definitions. edgegaurding "combos" :laughing:

>You can definitely get true followups, but they're also affected by how they get hit by the lasers, what they do with that (SDI), and whether or not you get a bit of a read on what they want to do.

Yeah and this goes into my likelihood/probability claim. You can definitely affect how consistent they are in these areas by mixing up throws and keeping them on their toes to do the correct sdi (in your example) all of the time. You can even cause them to di for certain throws therefore giving you true follow ups on another one. This sort of thing is very reliant on the level of player in the area of combo defense options in my opinion/experience. some "pseudo" combos are practically interchangeable with true ones as well -- the frame, 2 frame, etc differences mattering more relative to your opponent, again.

>As far as the "meaningful damage" part, I mostly refer to getting an actually decent combo. Pseudo-comboing is something I can sometimes do well, but often just entirely fail at unless I've already got a fair amount of momentum on my side. I end up over-extending or not wanting to do something for fear of whiffing.

hmm I theorycrafted all possible scenarios (to my knowledge) and practiced a lot of things to gain more consistency. it's also related to your ability as well which can be honed in certain ways. I think specifically in your scenario focusing on finishers (combo finishers) for example could provide great use. instead of shine-> aerialing that fox go for the shine -> f smash and put yourself in a good position for example of how I would define solid dmg/executable, good positioning finishers (completely vertical hitbox can combo/set up juggle at least if you miss reaction rly well lol so funny when this happens)

>As an easy example of this, let's say a Fox just missed a tech on a platform. I don't want to try and just immediately jump up and shine waveland that missed tech because I don't want to have to guess. Instead, I'd *prefer* to just react to what he does and shine waveland then, but my reaction time for situations like that isn't good enough yet to actually get the followup.

I set up scenarios where I could practice it over and over again until I became consistent at exactly that. I will say that maybe for different platform height stages you could opt for different follow ups however. aerial full tech option coverages, usmashes/u tilts/ u airs on low enough platforms like bf/ys/ps/some fod etc. I have a lot written down on tech chasing

>There's other situations like these that I just don't feel entirely comfortable in, one of them being dair techchasing on platforms that PPMD mentioned. It just feels really awkward for me and it's really hard to get the followups more often than not. Yeah the game is hard, but still.

practice makes perfect =3=
 

Jayners

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I'm sorry for the extremely broad question, but as someone who is new to the competitive scene and really wants to get good at falco, what should I be funneling all my time into? I feel pretty confident in most tech and am not sure what I need to do to "break into" higher level of play.
 

FE_Hector

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I'm sorry for the extremely broad question, but as someone who is new to the competitive scene and really wants to get good at falco, what should I be funneling all my time into? I feel pretty confident in most tech and am not sure what I need to do to "break into" higher level of play.
The big thing I think you should be working on is getting to the point where any movement or combos you might want to do are just easy muscle memory. The more able you are to execute on whatever it is you want to do whenever it is you want to do it, the easier it should become to be able to focus on learning people's habits and all that fun stuff to break into higher levels of play. I'm no expert, though, and this probably varies a lot person to person.
 

Jayners

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The big thing I think you should be working on is getting to the point where any movement or combos you might want to do are just easy muscle memory. The more able you are to execute on whatever it is you want to do whenever it is you want to do it, the easier it should become to be able to focus on learning people's habits and all that fun stuff to break into higher levels of play. I'm no expert, though, and this probably varies a lot person to person.
I'm assuming the easiest way would be to just combo 20xx computers then?
 

FE_Hector

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I'm assuming the easiest way would be to just combo 20xx computers then?
Not inherently imo because when you combo computers you're just doing stuff mindlessly without a worry about neutral. Getting comfortable with techskill and then being able to apply it against people is important cuz it means you're not thinking about your fingers, but about your opponent. That was more what I was getting at.
 

smileblade

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Hey all,
a problem I have with falco is getting stuck in the corner, especially on FD. On FD,i just feel like there isnt a really good way to get out as falco. So far I tried jumping high to get out and rolling but those are only two options which probably could be reacted to if the other person has good spacing (correct me if I'm wrong). What are some other ways to get out of the corner?
 

Dr Peepee

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Ways to get out of the corner on FD besides what you mentioned:

1. Run into/cross them up with Dair/Nair. Can lead into followups on hit and safe on shield if you do it right.

2. Take stage in small amounts. Fake going forward like above but then laser or back up to force them back or keep them in place to help you move forward.

2.5. Make them come into you and then counterattack with pivot grab/shine oos/cc shine/ac bair/utilt/going into them
 

ik3r

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Regaining Stage Control/How I Solve Problems



Good question! I'm going to answer this using the method I would use to answer it if I asked myself so that people can use this methodology if they want to solve other problems without having to ask me. =)


When you're limited, you must understand why you are limited. Understanding the situation in its entirety is the first step in analyzing a problem and correcting it. In this case, you are limited by having a small amount of stage to move around on, and your opponent has a great amount of space to move around on.

Knowing why each explanation you may come up with is relevant to the problem is a good way to check whether your ideas may be more correct or incorrect than the others. For example, if you also decided that having less space was bad because you couldn't wall someone out with Bairs and Uptilts as easily, then you would have to figure out whether this is a better explanation than having less room to move. The answer is pretty obvious in this case that having less room to move is the better answer and even explains the first theory in this case for simplicity's sake, but I'm just making a demonstration of how this thought process could work.

Anyway, saying that you have less room to move around the stage, and movement is important in Melee are the ways you can express how this answer is related to the problem.

Then you have to think about your answer you just gave. Why is movement important in Melee? What can you do with more movement options? Well, movement allows one to feint or hide their intentions, while still threatening with long-ranged or quick attacks at any time. Having less movement options means you will be more predictable since you have less room to create an elaborate feint. Generally, having less movement options also means you are confined spatially, which just means you are stuck in a smaller area(platforms count here too kinda). Being confined spatially is bad because you lose zoning, or space controlling potential. I'm sort of combining the two issues here, but movement is sometimes a bigger deal than zoning in Melee, so this is shortest way I can way write about the problem being confined presents.

Once you know the problems associated with a bad situation and why they are bad, you can begin to analyze these problems and/or solve them as well as possible. When having less movement options, I already said you would be concerned about remaining unpredictable. So, this means you must know and abuse every single movement option you have in order to be unpredictable and not killed here. Economic DDs(not excessive movement, but enough to feign an approach and varies widely in speed), very precise WDs, FHs(if you're Falco in this case, which you are) and maybe SHs/DJs if you really like jump tricks are all good ways to use movement. Being fully conscious of them as Falco involves knowing if your opponent is in range to stuff a SHL on reaction or just wants to punish you for moving at all. Sometimes, doing nothing may be better than moving because you don't have many options anyway and you get to observe what your opponent is trying to do to you. Jumping allows Falco to move through the air well, especially if you don't FF, so I urge you to also keep that option in mind.

As for being confined spatially, I'll have to overlap the answers a little. As you cannot zone too well in a locked up position, you must either decide on whether you want to play the opponent or focus on simply taking the stage back. If you want to play the opponent, then either work movement techniques that will make the opponent move forward and you can hit them/Bthrow reverse the situation on them, or cause them to be unsure of whether you will attack or not and fall back. If you want to focus on taking stage back, then common answers for Falco can be found in movement to seem as though you will attack, running/WD'ing up and jumping or shielding or attacking(usually a crossup, but could also be a zoning move like Bair/uptilt/ftilt) to quickly take stage. Notice that you are not limited to even just offense or defense here, but also a position of baiting and waiting as long as you remain unpredictable with your fewer options. As your opponent adjusts to 1-2 options, then feign those and/or switch to others.

Keep in mind here that I have not yet mentioned lasers outside of the opponent looking to punish them, and that is because Falco PLAYERS can become heavily reliant on the option and limit themselves when they have other, usually better choices in this situation. Laser is great when your opponent thinks you will do something else is the best way I'd describe them in this situation.


If you wanted to be really effective in your analysis, you could go on to examine each option individually, why it works, what opponents/characters it would work against, and which mixup options work best with each other option. I am tired and have put off being productive for too long now, so I'm not going to do that here.





.......oh, I just noticed you also struggle with someone getting in your face as Falco. Shield DI(still very underused but amazing), WD'ing OOS, rolling at different times, and shine OOS(it's still invincible and wins out in trades usually) are among your better options here.


Anyway, that's how I solve problems usually. If you have any questions or comments or criticisms, then lemme know because I'm always looking to improve/share my ideas. =)

<3
 

Nils.

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Any thoughts on using shine VS. upair to punish techs on platforms? I have a habit of reading tech in place and punishing with shine or reacting/reading rolls. But the problem I experience is that I can lose stage control if I try to shine tech in place and they roll in on the platform and go down to center stage while I'm still on the platform. I guess depending on your position you have time to punish the roll after shining and wavelanding on the platform. So perhaps it is a good idea to read tech in place with a shine if the opponent lands closer to the center so you have time to punish roll in if they do it, and if they roll out it doesn't really matter because you have a favorable position.

I'm kinda annoyed by this dilemma because I want to be able to flowchart it, fairly well at least. Anyhow I'm probably gonna use more upair because even if you miss them you're in a safe position below them which in nice. I should probably do it more when the opponents techs away on platforms also because it can set up a dair. I've been thinking mostly VS spacies when writing this and at low/mid percents especially.
 
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Dr Peepee

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I don't have all the percents and DIs/stages down, but I know that if you're starting under the platform you can usually react to any tech option with jump shine. Uair is more for when you're farther away/at one side and I notice that covers many different options since the second hit stays out a little and you carry momentum through the SH. Uair works better at mid percents so if they DI out you get a Dair, you can see Mango do this a lot.

That's the quick primer on it as I see it.
 

FE_Hector

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Any thoughts on using shine VS. upair to punish techs on platforms? I have a habit of reading tech in place and punishing with shine or reacting/reading rolls. But the problem I experience is that I can lose stage control if I try to shine tech in place and they roll in on the platform and go down to center stage while I'm still on the platform. I guess depending on your position you have time to punish the roll after shining and wavelanding on the platform. So perhaps it is a good idea to read tech in place with a shine if the opponent lands closer to the center so you have time to punish roll in if they do it, and if they roll out it doesn't really matter because you have a favorable position.

I'm kinda annoyed by this dilemma because I want to be able to flowchart it, fairly well at least. Anyhow I'm probably gonna use more upair because even if you miss them you're in a safe position below them which in nice. I should probably do it more when the opponents techs away on platforms also because it can set up a dair. I've been thinking mostly VS spacies when writing this and at low/mid percents especially.
By and large, I prefer to opt for uair most of the time. There's none of the risks you mentioned with using shine, and it's generally rough to punish if they can't shield drop well.
 

Nils.

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I don't have all the percents and DIs/stages down, but I know that if you're starting under the platform you can usually react to any tech option with jump shine. Uair is more for when you're farther away/at one side and I notice that covers many different options since the second hit stays out a little and you carry momentum through the SH. Uair works better at mid percents so if they DI out you get a Dair, you can see Mango do this a lot.

That's the quick primer on it as I see it.
I'll have to try it out, lab it a bit, but it seems very hard to jump shine tech in place considering how hard it is to grab. I imagine shielding instantly after tech in place is the best option against this and I don't know if you have the time to punish it in time. But if you're slow, hit their shield and DJ you're still in a decent position I guess.

I usually go for the 50/50: React to rolls or read tech in place. Guess shine is better at low percent most of the time because you get a guaranteed followup, and even if you screw up and the opponent gets back to center stage you can drop through platform laser and it's fine. Thanks for the tip about upair covering many options. And I'm also gonna experiment with it more when the opponent is at higher percents.
 
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Ukulele

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Any thoughts on using shine VS. upair to punish techs on platforms? I have a habit of reading tech in place and punishing with shine or reacting/reading rolls.
I only go for preemptive tech chase coverage on platform if I have a good set of data on the tech options that they are choosing and I'm not trying to practice platform tech option coverage via reaction. Otherwise, reaction is always better, in my opinion. This is due to the fact that I cannot always figure out their tech choices preemptively, while I can if I react => combo starter/knock them off stage/juggle them for their tech option.

But the problem I experience is that I can lose stage control if I try to shine tech in place and they roll in on the platform and go down to center stage while I'm still on the platform.
Yeah, this is very true. =)

I'm smiling because I actually hadn't considered this. I am pretty good at reacting with shine while positioned pretty centered underneath of a given platform, but I don't always land the shine, of course. It is also more difficult on a stage such as DL, for example, due to the larger platform, greater height of the platform (top vs side, side DL plat vs side YS plat), and larger stage size (this can affect multiple variables that aren't as obvious.)

I guess depending on your position you have time to punish the roll after shining and wavelanding on the platform.
I've done this and watched other people do this. I would recc specifically analyzing this position and also accounting for other variables like timing the air dodge out of jump, the length of the air dodge, etc. There is also the important question of: What do I do if I'm not in this position?

So perhaps it is a good idea to read tech in place with a shine if the opponent lands closer to the center so you have time to punish roll in if they do it, and if they roll out it doesn't really matter because you have a favorable position.
This is certainly possible! (It's also rly cool. =D)

I'm kinda annoyed by this dilemma because I want to be able to flowchart it, fairly well at least.
I think that I have been able to do this pretty well. There are some great resources for other, outside opinions on this, too. (e.g., help revising)

Anyhow I'm probably gonna use more upair because even if you miss them you're in a safe position below them which in nice.
I would propose that there are other options that are even less "committal." This seems to be your goal, right? Minimizing commitment to certain positions? In relation to this, I also have some ulterior variables to talk about, too. For example, doing a short hop up air vs a DJC usmash OR reads vs reactions (huge).

I should probably do it more when the opponents techs away on platforms also because it can set up a dair. I've been thinking mostly VS spacies when writing this and at low/mid percents especially.
Forsure.
 

Dr Peepee

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I'll have to try it out, lab it a bit, but it seems very hard to jump shine tech in place considering how hard it is to grab. I imagine shielding instantly after tech in place is the best option against this and I don't know if you have the time to punish it in time. But if you're slow, hit their shield and DJ you're still in a decent position I guess.

I usually go for the 50/50: React to rolls or read tech in place. Guess shine is better at low percent most of the time because you get a guaranteed followup, and even if you screw up and the opponent gets back to center stage you can drop through platform laser and it's fine. Thanks for the tip about upair covering many options. And I'm also gonna experiment with it more when the opponent is at higher percents.
Well I can react to it so I don't know why you couldn't. It's definitely difficult though.

You can always just FH/DJ Bair/Dair them if you have time and falling dair can combo or rising/falling bair does lots of damage and gives better position(if they tech in just kick them toward edge).
 

FE_Hector

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Well I can react to it so I don't know why you couldn't. It's definitely difficult though.

You can always just FH/DJ Bair/Dair them if you have time and falling dair can combo or rising/falling bair does lots of damage and gives better position(if they tech in just kick them toward edge).
This is actually reassuring for me. I've been trying for a while to react to tech options with jump shine, but had recently been questioning whether or not the reaction was possible. I'll definitely redouble my efforts in following it!
 

kaptinkillem

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My question is a little more abstract I suppose, but hopefully you can help me a bit PP. I don't have problems identifying problems in my play. Everyone makes hundreds maybe thousands of mistakes per game, depending on your level. My problem is prioritization. It seems like there's such an endless amount of things to improve, I just have no idea where to begin, or go next a lot of the time. Most of the time I don't go too indepth into solving problems, because im trying to decide which problem I want to put time, and mental energy into solving first.

So my question is, is there a method by which you decide what you want to work on next? Or is it just kinda random.
 

Dr Peepee

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The way I've always prioritized is by what gets me the most reward. Movement tech is very rewarding as it opens options and deepens connection to the game. Beyond that sort of thing, you want to look at divisions of neutral and punish and how certain options work together in a given matchup. So shield pressure gives you some reward to work on, but can you really say you should ever spend more time on it than how to get to shield pressure in the first place, or how to convert afterward? Beyond that, work on whatever you want but just try to round yourself out. If you spend two weeks on various aspects of neutral(like fighting out of the corner and corner pressure) then maybe switching to focus on edgeguarding and tech chasing afterward would keep your play more whole and always considering the relationship between the various factors. Really it doesn't matter much as long as you get to everything, so just do what you can and you'll hit every major point eventually. The opportunities for growth don't end but growing in a balanced way is still important.
 

Frenzy231199

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PP in your interview with Tafo, you said that Falco's weren't very efficient at the moment, do you think you could expand on this a bit? Excited to see you at BMR2 btw the progress is incredible :D
 

Dr Peepee

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Falcos can make things a lot easier by doing fewer dashes, faking more with sh in drift back/dj/waveland back, working utilt/bair more in relevant matchups(you need to be still to utilt), and knowing how their laser impacts the opponent so they know when they can move in some vs all in.

And thank you it will be nice to be all better but I'll take what I can get =)
 

Squidster

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I always wanna start posting here but I always take awhile to come up with a question and by the time I’ve thought about it enough for the question to make sense I feel like I’ve mostly answered it already lol.


Anyways @PP, something you said in your interview with Tafo struck a chord with me. You were talking about the dash back turnaround laser in place thing you do and how doing it also threatens dash back, dash dance back in approach.


I kinda stopped doing that laser a few months back when I talked to Druggedfox and he convinced me the full momentum back turnaround laser is good and I never quite found the reason why the in place one is good. After you talked about it thought I realized the value is that you threaten more than one thing at once in a way the full momentum back laser isn’t doing (it’s still good it’s just different.)


So not only am I trying to reincorporate this laser and the associated mixups now, but I’m thinking about every action I take and how I move before the action and trying to find at least one other action that I was threatening, basically don’t do anything unless you COULD have done something else too. I noticed the way you threaten from side and top platform uses this mantra a lot, like short hopping from the side platform and either double jumping to the top platform or fast falling to the ground -> approach. Or like doing a drop down laser from the top platform laser or a drop down from the top platform double jump. You move in similar ways and delay the action as long as possible so your opponent can’t know or react to the plethora of actions you’re keeping available.


Late aerials kind of do this. Short hopping at your opponent kind of delays your actions because you can late aerial, double jump, waveland back, or even do a late laser with no fast fall or something.


So yeah like I said I don’t know if I have a question but rethinking about the game in this way has been extremely helpful. I’ve noticed some situations where I commit to an action too soon thus taking away any semblance of mixups that I could have or that I even I move “correctly” before an action I always pick the same option out of it so I’m not making use of potential mixups. I’ll turn it into a question by saying, did I interpret your statement about sh turnaround laser in place correctly and do you have any thoughts on this whole concept of “mixups?”
 

Dr Peepee

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What's up Squid! I'm glad you're here =)

I think you're definitely on the right track with this. There are some thing to keep in mind when thinking of mixups.

-make your starting actions similar. if you don't you give your intent away. sounds simple but people often leave little tells so you must practice this.

-consider all the relationships between the tools. again sounds super obvious, but I rarely see this done. dash back leaves you with many options including fh/sh(drift and FF control), different dash lengths, dash again, run, AC Bair/late bair, dash in(to approach or something else), turnaround laser in place....and so on. Knowing each tool individually is only the beginning, and combining them brings new layers of complexity with each level. There is much the half dash back laser can teach, I think. =p

-As you develop these situations, your actions carry levels of intent and they become setups. Setups allow you to have faster reaction times(why are top players always a bit faster than me?) because you know all of the small situations and possible/likely outcomes since you've practiced it so much. This is a big value of deep internalized knowledge and good practice, which is something I'm sure you can take advantage of.
 

Klemes

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I'd like to hear you guys's thoughts on falco's undershoot nair.

One I really like to do is dash to the range right where a laser can get punished by say fox shffl, and shieldstop > nair in place. Linking to your earlier talk about good mixups being hard to tell appart until the last moment, stopping at this range I might fadeback > dair, aggro nair > shine or shieldstop > laser in place. And I know this is the spot to dash back > whatever, just gotta get this in my thick skull :p

The thing is I know it's a tool that has its uses, but when I look at my play I see that I'm very guilty of building my gameplay by laying bricks randomly, without a deeper knowledge of whether they fit well here or if they'll weaken or undermine my structure.

It's a problematic I always have in the back of my head when I think about Falco's neutral game ;

Whereas with fox, even if I'm less practiced in pulling off my fox stuff cleanly, I really don't have to second guess my intentions as I feel like I can reduce practically every decision to :
1.bait and punish
2.commit to an approach
(to be fair the character CAN zone / cover a spot against certain agressive options, but the only fox that ever does this with success is Leffen from what I see. Especially at certain periods like at last Summit. And I don't feel like where I stand, I need to incorporate this to my fox anytime soon to meet my goals.)

But Falco does not work like that. Controlling space is a concept I can work with, but the deeper interactions I keep hearing about like exploiting reactions with pro-active play, and conditionning your opponents, and what shooting a laser actually accomplishes etc. This is just too big to wrap my head around atm.

So here's my question : at the current spot in my evolution as a player, is the basic analysis "why did I get hit / how did I get my opening - could I have done something more effective or that carries less risk" still the best thing to do ? While I wait for something to tilt in my head to top my theorycrafting plateau.
Or should I keep trying to encompass all the biz that I know is there but that feels like it's way beyond me ?

Cause sometimes I play gud, sometimes I play bad, and honnestly I have no idea what I'm doing

 

Dr Peepee

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Well your first idea about dashing into a similar range and shield stopping then providing a new cue is good. Be sure you keep your actions consistent before this as well or you'll be influencing your opponent(doesn't always matter just something to consider).

Something that may benefit you is thinking of the purpose of lasers. Lasers are there primarily to complement Falco's very slow dash speed and lesser range(the opponent is slowed and you can gain mobility or small positional advantages with it). A really good way I've seen people recommend learning lasers is to stop lasering. When you see what the point of them is you can add them back in safely. Should that fail, just laser minimally and try to at least make some type of decision after every one(decision does not equal approach with an aerial or laser trying to hit them btw, but obviously can be part of it).

As for building a total foundation, be sure to break the game down into its individual parts and study it. Neutral(and it's subdivisions like threatening range) and punish(with divisions like comboing, juggling, tech chasing, etc). Without more specific questions this is the best I can say.
 

leavingmirror

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Let's say a Falco is shielding on a platform. As a Fox main, I'll try to shield pressure them by approaching with what is probably a poorly spaced aerial, followed by Falco shield drop bairing me into my death. Apparently that's not safe, and if so, what should I do instead to enforce pressure on my oppenent while they're on a plat?
 

Yort

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Well your first idea about dashing into a similar range and shield stopping then providing a new cue is good. Be sure you keep your actions consistent before this as well or you'll be influencing your opponent(doesn't always matter just something to consider).

Something that may benefit you is thinking of the purpose of lasers. Lasers are there primarily to complement Falco's very slow dash speed and lesser range(the opponent is slowed and you can gain mobility or small positional advantages with it). A really good way I've seen people recommend learning lasers is to stop lasering. When you see what the point of them is you can add them back in safely. Should that fail, just laser minimally and try to at least make some type of decision after every one(decision does not equal approach with an aerial or laser trying to hit them btw, but obviously can be part of it).

As for building a total foundation, be sure to break the game down into its individual parts and study it. Neutral(and it's subdivisions like threatening range) and punish(with divisions like comboing, juggling, tech chasing, etc). Without more specific questions this is the best I can say.
Can you help me understand reaction points more? So from my understand you set a point during your dash / wd / jump etc and at this point you check your opponents position, then choose an option based on those you have available to you in order to counter what you think the opponent will do next based on their positioning? From my understanding you have to read a lot of things in neutral after said reaction point, but you assume their option based on conditioning / options they have available / patterns you've noticed etc.

So using the example with the full dash back which can lead into sh / fh / dash back / in place laser etc you were talking about with squid, can you help me understand this more? Things like where in the dash you react, what exactly you react to (my understanding is positioning at a certain point, percent, etc).

I have often seen you do full dash back, and if they are in the air falling with an aerial you do another full dash back into dash in grab to whiff punish, so in this case you react to where they are in the air and don't go for the laser, and go for a whiff punish instead? Sorry if this question wasn't specific enough, I feel like I am having difficulty making my understanding of reaction points concrete for myself.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Let's say a Falco is shielding on a platform. As a Fox main, I'll try to shield pressure them by approaching with what is probably a poorly spaced aerial, followed by Falco shield drop bairing me into my death. Apparently that's not safe, and if so, what should I do instead to enforce pressure on my oppenent while they're on a plat?
You might be able to super late Nair into shine or super late Bair shine, but other than that you're better off spacing around the shield drop bair with your bair or something. You could also space in front of their shield where shield drop bair/shine won't hit you.

Can you help me understand reaction points more? So from my understand you set a point during your dash / wd / jump etc and at this point you check your opponents position, then choose an option based on those you have available to you in order to counter what you think the opponent will do next based on their positioning? From my understanding you have to read a lot of things in neutral after said reaction point, but you assume their option based on conditioning / options they have available / patterns you've noticed etc.

So using the example with the full dash back which can lead into sh / fh / dash back / in place laser etc you were talking about with squid, can you help me understand this more? Things like where in the dash you react, what exactly you react to (my understanding is positioning at a certain point, percent, etc).

I have often seen you do full dash back, and if they are in the air falling with an aerial you do another full dash back into dash in grab to whiff punish, so in this case you react to where they are in the air and don't go for the laser, and go for a whiff punish instead? Sorry if this question wasn't specific enough, I feel like I having difficulty making my understanding of reaction points concrete for myself. It seems pretty abstract but I want to understand it completely.
This is really really really difficult to explain because it involves me trying to tell you the result of deeply examining many different positions and figuring out how they work together. I'll do my best with that example.

In the event of dash back, let's suppose we start at threatening range, or the full range both characters can safely react to the others' best approach option at. So if I dash back I should be even safer. This increase in space may encourage my opponent to approach or take some stage, or it could encourage them to just watch/prepare counterattack if they suspect an approach after dash back. Additionally, dashing back opens up Bair specifically so approaches from that angle would be discouraged(again unless they suspect turning around directly after dash back). Depending on how far you dash you give your opponent more or less time to react, and also give yourself more or less time/space to make another decision.

....sigh I don't think this is getting anywhere. I'll just use a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls

0:17. I dash back as Mango is fading away to observe his drift/dodge drift in and also to set up a full approach if he drifts back.

0:38 is more neutral. we both actually dash back to observe and then I see he didn't come in so I do the same approach since Mango often doesn't try to counterattack but run in with shield against Falco. That is what he does.

This still reduces a lot of the complexity but it's the best I can do. This info may at least make this set in particular more understandable.

To really learn this stuff, I'd suggest just breaking down every minor position you notice as much as possible by possible options and what is likely for various reasons. You'll find useful patterns that way.
 

Yort

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You might be able to super late Nair into shine or super late Bair shine, but other than that you're better off spacing around the shield drop bair with your bair or something. You could also space in front of their shield where shield drop bair/shine won't hit you.


This is really really really difficult to explain because it involves me trying to tell you the result of deeply examining many different positions and figuring out how they work together. I'll do my best with that example.

In the event of dash back, let's suppose we start at threatening range, or the full range both characters can safely react to the others' best approach option at. So if I dash back I should be even safer. This increase in space may encourage my opponent to approach or take some stage, or it could encourage them to just watch/prepare counterattack if they suspect an approach after dash back. Additionally, dashing back opens up Bair specifically so approaches from that angle would be discouraged(again unless they suspect turning around directly after dash back). Depending on how far you dash you give your opponent more or less time to react, and also give yourself more or less time/space to make another decision.

....sigh I don't think this is getting anywhere. I'll just use a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls

0:17. I dash back as Mango is fading away to observe his drift/dodge drift in and also to set up a full approach if he drifts back.

0:38 is more neutral. we both actually dash back to observe and then I see he didn't come in so I do the same approach since Mango often doesn't try to counterattack but run in with shield against Falco. That is what he does.

This still reduces a lot of the complexity but it's the best I can do. This info may at least make this set in particular more understandable.

To really learn this stuff, I'd suggest just breaking down every minor position you notice as much as possible by possible options and what is likely for various reasons. You'll find useful patterns that way.
Alright, so i'll put in the time to breaking down the nuances of many different positions.

So my next questions is this, once you figure out a solution that I think is good for a specific position do you recommend shadowboxing to train your intuition to actually execute this solution? Assuming this situation does not happen much vs regular people or you can't play various people, do you recommend visualizing the situation and playing it out in your head over and over to get it down? any other advice?
 
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Dr Peepee

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The best thing to do is to find a way to test your ideas. Barring that, think of all of the possible exceptions and ways that even if your idea is good the actions can still lose. Then practice going through the actions as well as the countermeasures so you're prepared for many more outcomes than you otherwise would be.

If you have specific questions about these sorts of things I can be more helpful.
 

Squidster

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Aight I’ve been focused on these concepts you talked about (making my starting actions similar and then considering the relationship between tools). I’ve found that both of these steps are difficult and will take a long time but for SOME of the actions the first step is actually easy and even without necessarily understanding the 2nd step I’ve had instant improvement thanks to it.

An example is I think doing jump waveland down on the side platform is a simplified version of this. I mix up drop down laser or sh off and when I drop down laser I mix up my follow-up action and when I sh off I mix up dj to the top platform or ff laser / aerial / empty land and when I go to the top platform I mix up drop down laser drop down double jump or drop down aerial or drop down waveland or sh ff through plat laser / aerial etc.

So I now have this chart of options that I use from the side platform and even before I got to the meaty dissection of these options and interactions, using these options and making sure my starting actions are similar immediately made me more dynamic and unpredictable. I fully intend to delve deeper into this so that there is more logic behind the options I’m picking in these spots but I was pleasantly surprised to see how quickly I saw payoff with this mindset.

Now I do think side platform stuff kind of gives the “similar starting actions” part of it for free kind of and implementing this concept in the ground game feels more nuanced and tricky. Finding the times to dash dance, wavedash, stand still, laser multiple times in a row and variations of all of these and finding which options out of these is effective in which matchup at which spacing can also be tricky (though obviously I have a starting point here since I’m not starting from exactly 0).

I can see that laser can act as a starting point for this sort of “options chart.” Like laser -> dash back -> branch of options or laser -> wavedash back -> branch of options or laser -> dash forward -> branch of options or laser dash forward -> wd back -> branch of options and there may be a lot of overlap of options you can do out of these and seeing which options beat what in what matchup might be a good starting point. And of course laser won’t always be the starting point and getting the laser itself out might require mixups in the first place but regardless this is kind of where I’m starting with this for now.

Marth has been a tricky matchup for awhile so I hope to try to apply these concepts to clarify situations and possibly come back with follow-up questions when things don’t go as smoothly as I hope. So far though even when I lose this framework of thinking gives me a lot of direction for where to go to improve.

Once again I don’t really have a question just giving my thoughts out loud, feel free to give me your thoughts on my thoughts =]
 
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Dr Peepee

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Falco is convenient in that his laser gives him an obvious tool to work around when setting things up. His weakness is he's pretty much required to revolve around it.

The only other piece of advice I'd give is keep it simple. Firing multiple lasers almost always isn't necessary. 2 is usually the maximum before people catch on to what you're doing and get out of the mixup, so limit yourself to 1 or 2(then make a decision) until you develop those more.

Seems like you're on the right path though. Good luck!
 

Squidster

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Hi! Two questions.

First, the value of consecutive lasers. Druggedfox is a big proponent that most Falcos are not adept at lasering low and quickly and that doing so very powerful and limiting. For example, Marth can’t even get a dash attack out between two lasers. In terms of individual interactions I can see a consecutive laser catching someone’s jump and allowing for a really favorable position afterwards. In terms boarder strategy I think it just limits your opponent’s options and shortens their grounded threat range a lot. It likely will make them try to commit harder into you or play the vertical game more. Do you think despite this you almost always get more value by setting up more offensive / proactive mixups after the 2nd laser? Or are you just saying explore the mixups with 1-2 lasers before bothering to shoot more since you’re probably missing out on a bunch of opportunities if you’re just shooting lasers to start with.

Second question is about platform mixups. In my last post I talked about the mixups off of wavelanding down on the side or top platforms. I’ve seen you do quite a lot of this stuff vs like Peach and Samus and probably others which I assume is in part because they are worse at threatening that space. I’ve been experimenting with it and it seems really strong and makes Falco way more dynamic and less predictable. Laser can be shot with no jumpsquat or SHL visual queue, Dair can be threatened from above, Falco can move up and down faster than basically anyone so you can bait them into jumping and then get under them and stuff. Now the part that confuses me is how it works or if it’s worth it in matchups like Marth / Falcon where they can threaten that space pretty easily. Fh WL down > drop down laser from the side platform still seems to have worth when they’re a distance away but the rest seems kinda iffy though you can still bait predictable responses from them. Another thing is that even in matchups where it is good, it can be hard to decide when to take to the platforms and when to continue playing the ground game. Could you give a brief summary on your thoughts behind platform mixups in various matchups and when they’re strong, what they offer, when they’re weak, etc.

Thanks!
 

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First of all, Druggedfox is talking about lasers in place, without movement, done as quickly as possible. This does not give you plenty of time to perhaps change your strategy in response to how the opponent handled the first laser. It could also make you more vulnerable to powershield, especially Z-PS. That said, if you want to force them to do vertical play(for Sheik this can be SH over lasers and does not need to be FH as an example of how this changes between characters) then you can go for this. If you want to really lock an already off balance opponent in place, you can do this. However, opponents with more experience against lasers may be able to take time to move safely against someone who seems to likely shoot twice in place a lot. Now, supposing you wanted to counter this, you'd need to take time to see what they did after the first laser. This is part of why I do the dash back, to give me more time/space for another laser and to see what they did in response to the first.

Actually as a quick aside: Druggedfox and I think completely differently/opposite about the game. He is very much about doing one thing a particular way over and over if it is the "best thing" or "best things." I view a best thing as something unique to a person, provided they have the ground rules internalized. So in this case, if you knew the value of the Druggedfox lasers and my lasers, you could choose how to combine them(if you wanted) and which to push more. That's all I really care about here is you do what you think is best.

Okay back to your first question. Do I think you get more value out of proactive lasers? It can depend on the person, but I would say on average yes. However it is harder as you can't just run an arguably safer way of doing things repeatedly. The value comes from your opponent losing frame advantage after shielding/taking a laser and you get time to move then see them respond and can manipulate from this position. Oh, I just reread it, and you should be proactive before/during/after the first laser as well to deepen the effects of each laser. Doing this in itself can create a rich web of mixups. Taking laser dash back as an example, you could move in fully or slightly with dash forward and jump, or dash forward and stall out your momentum into another laser, or stop and prep utilt/bair or just wait and laser from the farther position....you can see that much of this involves small wait timings and small decisions that branch a lot within each option I listed. This is what you can practice. This goes so deeply that I think you or anyone else would overcomplicate things/lose the mixup/waste their time trying to manipulate much beyond 2 lasers in a given setup. Doesn't mean you have to go in after 2 lasers, but you should have gained something useful by then. I hope this explains it a bit more.



Okay so platform lasers vs Marth/Falcon. First of all vs Falcon I think it's not worth it at all because of Falcon's Uair. Just too good of a move combined with his speed lol. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but to me it's not worth it. Vs Marth however, there is an argument for platform lasers. If the Marth is adept at powershielding I may shoot an easier laser for him to PS(a more mid height one) and pre-emptively FH to waveland down on side platform. Then as the laser comes back/they shield I drop with another laser. This often catches the person coming forward and is very disorienting for them, and since Marth shouldn't have time to jump(unless he tanked the laser first and was pretty sure you'd fall with laser from platform and not try to aerial/shield drop aerial) you can laser effectively. That being said, it's still not as abusable as in spacies matchups, particularly in the ditto, but it is good.

Basically you're taking a risk with getting on a platform/dropping laser when they're pretty close or moving in from farther. In the Falco ditto, if you lose the laser war then you can do this a lot and it creates a really interesting game. Against Fox you need to be careful since he's so fast to be 100% sure he can't/won't get you before your laser comes out. You can always fake with drop through dj waveland down onto the platform again btw.

Everything else off the top of my head can be summarized by remembering to only push this move if you have the space/conditioning for it. You can get on a platform if they're closer but it will be a different game then. Hard to explain the nuances of that without visual aid though lol.

Let me know if you have any questions!
 

Frenzy231199

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PP how do you get Jab kill confirms more consistently at higher %, when I play vs good Peach or Samus players they often CC my Jab attempts and I get punished. Are you trying to catch them jumping with the Jab or have you conditioned them in some way so that it won't get CC'd?
 

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Probably because they're thinking I could do a lot of other things. If I make my grab followups good they want to shield less, and if I'm aerialing or lasering their WD back/hold down they don't want to take damage/lose stage for free. That can open up jabs. There's more to it in a situation by situation basis, but that's the general point.
 

Yort

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Basically you're taking a risk with getting on a platform/dropping laser when they're pretty close or moving in from farther. In the Falco ditto, if you lose the laser war then you can do this a lot and it creates a really interesting game. Against Fox you need to be careful since he's so fast to be 100% sure he can't/won't get you before your laser comes out. You can always fake with drop through dj waveland down onto the platform again btw.

!
About this platform laser situation in the falco ditto, how do I push frame advantage if the opponent falco is losing the laser war and decides to jump wl to platform? This happens very frequently and although falco is poor at dealing with lasers it feels difficult to take advantage of him jumping away.
 

Dr Peepee

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About this platform laser situation in the falco ditto, how do I push frame advantage if the opponent falco is losing the laser war and decides to jump wl to platform? This happens very frequently and although falco is poor at dealing with lasers it feels difficult to take advantage of him jumping away.
Yeah if you're not super close you're not directly punishing it. However you get to move in closer since you have frame advantage and he has to spend time jumping and wavelanding on the platform. If you're in a position where the Falco can't SH off aerial into you, then you just need to turn around and work FH/DJ/SH into DJ Bair as well as space around/threaten the shield drop. You could also hit them as they try to come back down with a laser or set up your own PS on it that would give you a very good position. It's not an easy position but that's the easiest way I could explain it. If you have a question about a specific option or combo of options they use we can discuss that, but otherwise that's what comes to my mind when I think of it right now.
 
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