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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
The biggest forseeable problem is actually missing the really good shine timing and doing it too late, which probably won't be a horrible thing at low levels. The other thing is that if you shine without realizing it, you might keep hitting B and it'll look like you were just stuck in shine.
in certain situations maybe
for example
if your opponent can tell that you are spamming the b button every time after you shffl, then the next time you do a shffl they can dodge it, and use a move on you that will get them a knockdown. because youre pressing down and spamming b, you will di down and get knocked down faster and then buffer a getup attack, which gives them an easy punish/combo on you
WondrousMoose
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Howdy, Falcos!
I'm a Smash 4 player looking to pick up Falco, and I'd just like a little advice on how to start. I'm in school now, so when I can, I try to practice basic tech like Wavedash, SHL, and SHFFL Dair. A few questions:
I'm a Smash 4 player looking to pick up Falco, and I'd just like a little advice on how to start. I'm in school now, so when I can, I try to practice basic tech like Wavedash, SHL, and SHFFL Dair. A few questions:
- What's the best way to practice laser heights? I'm still not consistent with even getting the laser to come out - Smash 4 lets you buffer everything, so I'm getting used to that - but as I get better with that, how should I time my jumps and lasers?
- Are Falco's smashes good? I'm used to Smash 4 Sheik, who rarely every uses them, but how about Falco?
- And finally, what are some good guides for combos to practice? I know that Falco is very combo-oriented, but I can only consistently Shine to one aerial at the moment
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Loaded questions ftw. Let's just move through it all in order.
- When I practice varying my laser heights, I actually do it against a Link (2nd controller plugged in as Link, but not doing anything). Mid-height lasers hit his shield, super high lasers go over him, high lasers hit above the shield, and low lasers go under the shield. Always press B before you fast fall with the lasers, but it will probably take some time to get them all nice and consistent.
- Being good and rarely using them are actually different. For example, because of Sheik's disgusting landlag out of her upB, I often use fsmash to punish to kill her for upBing onto the stage. Dsmash is also good for covering most spacies' upBs to ledge, and CC Dsmash works pretty well against Marth. Usmash has some weird techtrap setups, but not much outside of that.
- There aren't distinct guides for combos tbh. Just try pillaring a lvl3 Fox on FD. Shine -> WD -> SHFFL dair -> repeat. WD down is pretty good to practice as a sort of stepping stone, but optimally speaking, you should always WD to the right if they're on your right and vice versa right after the shine. Pillars are a free 50% on a lot of characters, and after that there are a ton of different ways to combo (PPMD, Mango, WBallz, and Zhu all do different stuff), but at the moment, not enough research has been put into Falco to determine what the 20XX-esque "optimal" punish is. Outside of pillaring, shine bair and shine dair are really nice once your fingers are fast enough, but in the end, it's all how YOU combo. If it works, who's to tell you that it's bad?
WondrousMoose
The highest laser is the same timing as the first laser when u do fox's shdl (short hop double lasers) and for the lowest laser u should laser after fastfalling. If u are having trouble just short hop lasering though, u should make moving around doing any height lasers your first priority.Other than that universal melee tech skill should be all you practice for a while. It will make comboing easier and more intuitive.
I've barely played melee in like two weeks. I'm not actually sure where I'm gonna go from here, because I've got almost no motivation. Maybe I'll put melee on the back burner for a few months and start back up again in college. I guess I'm not really expecting/asking anybody here to be able to help me, just kinda want to get this off my chest and organize my thoughts.
Interestingly, my wavedash was the only tech that really slipped, while my ledge dash somehow got better.
Interestingly, my wavedash was the only tech that really slipped, while my ledge dash somehow got better.
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StarEmblem
Smash Rookie
Is there any good tips I could use for maining Falco? I mean I have started to learn how to wavedash with him but I just want to know some good tips.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
The problem with that question is that it's like sitting down with Stephen Hawking and saying "tell me everything you know." There's just way too much information relevant to Falco to cover concisely at all.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Very few people playing a character as difficult as Falco isn't surprising and honestly doesn't mean anythingThe bird is almost extinct. Westballz and Zhu the only solo mains left
Bones0
Smash Legend
This channel has a lot of tutorials for the really basic stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC46ZTid4t2ctB6osM0WTiJA/search?query=falco
Was talking with Perhapsman the other day about how he compiled a list of when each move with Yoshi will knock down with and without cc on every relevant character in the game. Does a compilation of these percents exist for falco? Ive looked around a bit but am coming up empty.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Probably not. I should be getting a Wii to put 20XX on from a friend soon for free, so I should be able to do stuff in a few weeks. Though I guess I could do it on vanilla Melee...
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U don't need 20XX to test this, Ive already started working on it myself. I cant believe it doesn't exist already but I cant find it anywhere.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Yeah, I realized. If you finish before my wrist is better, I won't put in the effort lol.
Yeah, I wouldn't do all the work and then not post it here. When im done ill make sure everyone can use it.
Is there a place with updated match ups for Falco? There is old stuff from 2012 and before, does all match up discussion take place here? I was looking for peach stuff currently, but I was planning on going through other match ups in the top 8 and low tiers. I think the PP and Mogwai thread had stuff on Fox, Falcon, Shiek, Marth, and maybe another character and that stuff is good for now.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
There's nothing updated, largely because we lack a lot of top level Falcp stuff to look at.
If u want to learn a mathcup, u should really just study how PP does it. Ive never found reading about matchups to be that helpful, its easier to just look up a video and look for the specific things you have trouble with. For peach specifically leffens falco is excellent to watch too
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
PPMD-Armada'd Falco-Peach game from the first Summit was great. PPMD did like 2 really bad things, but it was still crazy close.
WondrousMoose
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A couple questions:
- What's some advice on turnaround waveshine? I find that the extra motion takes just long enough that I sometimes miss the jump cancel window. Is there a trick to it, or do I just need to practice?
- How do I do a running turnaround SHL while maintaining momentum? Should I input the direction earlier or later in the jump?
Turnaround shine is just practice. The timing changes with hitlag aswell. U cant jump out during the turnaround, and im pretty sure u cant turnaround in hitlag (if someone can confirm, thats what it feels like though).
Regardless of how it works, if u need a way to practice, i like to use the zoom in training mode. U can see exactly when u turnaround, and that can give u a visual aid to get the timing. (this is how i practice most tricky timings)
As for as keeping your momentum while SHL-ing, u need to do your turn around in the air. So keep holding forward all the way through jump squat until u are airborne then tap the other way while in the air and laser when the stick is back to neutral. Because u have to hit two different directions so close to when u are lasering u will side-b a lot on accident. The zoom method can help here aswell to see exactly when u are airborne.
There is a ton of frame data on how to carry momentum in a jump, but this is the easiest way to explain it. It is actually quite a bit more nuanced than this to get the *exact* aerial drift u want. But it starts with just the binary drift or no drift.
TAG$
Smash Apprentice
What is the best di for when you are getting shined by Falco, when you are either Falco or fox? Please help!
Away. If you're on the right side of Falco when you get sined, hold right, and left when you're on the left.
Then try to SDI by tapping your control stick away right when you get shined, that'll send you reaaally far away, super hard to follow for falco.
WondrousMoose
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Howdy, everyone. My practice is coming along pretty well, but I'm having a couple issues:
- Does anyone have advice on waveshining backward? I often end up turning around in my shine and missing the wavedash window.
- When I stall with Firebird, I'll sometimes shoot straight up and then fall back down facing away from the stage, missing the edge and dying. What am I doing? I can't reproduce a Firebird turnaround without steering to one direction, but I'm never holding a direction when stalling.
1 That means you tap your control stick backward for the wavedash too early, if you tap it (+L/R) at the end of your jumpsquat it'll be fine. It happens because you cannot jump out of shine when you're turning around.
On 20XX turn on the white flash on frame perfect wavedashes. Practice perfect wavedashes, then perfect waveshines. Et voilà !
2 To firestall : tap away to let go > tap jump [...wait 1/2 frame...] > up B. Again, you're pressing B a couple frames too early : if you let go and immediately firebird, Falco drops a tad too low to grab ledge during upB startup... resulting in straight upB (if no angle input).
WondrousMoose
If u touch a wall without grabbing a ledge you will turnaround in your firebird at the apex of it, causing u to fall to your death. U have to land on stage it happens
Bones0
Smash Legend
Even if you are facing the wrong way from your up-B, you can FF and grab the ledge backwards at pretty much any height, even if you were just barely under the stage to begin with.
Even straight up? I thought once u were turned around u were f'd.
DtJ SmithZzz
Happy Birthday Kjell
when falco touches the stage w/ his firebird, he will turn around.
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
This is kind of a random question but, when you fast fall, do you just flick the control stick down OR hold it down? Because I think I have a bad habit of holding it down and then drifting in the air for spacing. But this causes me to still hold down when I land sometimes and it messes up my timing with other tech skill. I'm not sure why are developed this habit but I noticed that if I just flick the control stick down to fast fall its faster. Or maybe its just in my head.
WondrousMoose
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It's best to be as crisp as possible with your inputs. As you've seen, it can screw things up (shine instead of laser, etc.). Just be conscious of it and maybe even just practice SHFFing.
Practicing fast falling as soon as possible out of different jumps (Short hop, full hop, double jump) is very helpful. I didn't even realize how bad I was at it until I started specifically practicing it.
It's best to tap down and release the stick immediately. That way you don't risk messing up anything out of your FF (DI, laser, etc) and you can anticipate your next input more easily if your stick is in neutral position.
Tap FF is also necessary for a few things, like WD back > FF > grab ledge. Naturally you can't grab the ledge if you're holding down.
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Thanks for the input guys I appreciate it. Cleared things up a lot
WondrousMoose
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I've been playing Falco for just over four weeks now. I started during finals week and don't have an active scene when I'm back home, so I've only been practicing tech skill. So far, I've been working on the following:
- Wavedash - 90% consistent, often perfect timing (20XX color overlays FTW)
- Waveshine - 75% consistent
- Waveshine backward - 50% consistent. Been working on it recently
- Shine turnaround wavedash - 25%. Bad
- Waveshine - 75% consistent
- SHFFL - 90% consistent without hitting, 75% on hit
- SHL - 95% consistent, though I can only aim generally high and generally low at this point
- Also experimenting with different full hop heights, such as top/middle, top/bottom, and laser at only one level
- D/Nairshine - 80% consistent. I miss L-cancels more than anything else. Usually waveshine out of the aerial
- LHDL - 80% consistent
- I can do basic pillaring on a handicapped Bowser across FD, though I mess up a little
- I'll sometimes try to string things together, experimenting with Utilt, Nair, etc., in combos. I'm using 20XX, so CPUs tech all over
- I started today working on shine turnaround Dair from the ledge
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
For playing Falco for around a month, that sounds pretty good. I don't think shine turnaround WD is good though. When I do it, it's always an input flub.
WondrousMoose
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Well, I like that I look good so far, but I would definitely like some suggestions. What Falco-specific techs should I be mastering? What are other more universal techs I should work on? I've done a little Isai dropping, but I plan to do a lot more, and I can sometimes shield drop, but it's definitely not consistent.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Ledgedashing is the most obvious one you left out. LHDL is good to be able to use when the opponent is at a distance, but you really have to be able to ledgedash to get on stage vs. good players. They can react and punish if you do anything else.