Powershielding, DI, SHFFLing, etc.

[slikvik]

Notice how I said "I'd wager...", while you just flat out stated that I was wrong, as if it were a fact.

Who's presumptuous?

And it seems people tend to agree with me. Huh.

from what ive seen, most people tend to disagree with you. also, you can't look at the casual gamers when attempting to figure out a percentage of people who powershield because they simply dont care enough to learn many of the advanced techniques anyway. If you go to tournaments, you will find plenty of people who powershield. I learned it to counter falcos SHL

 

[Takeshi245]

Not to mention characters who have actual reflecting moves (Fox, Falco, the Marios, Zelda) would seem cheapened in a way.

And yes, I'm aware that Fox's reflector and the power shield are NOT the same thing at all, but I just liked it better when only certain characters would reflect projectiles. At least it makes sense when Fox or Mario does it.

But because every character can reflect by powershielding, it kind of help to balance the game. Also, can't players powershield in SSB?

 

[maxpower1227]

also, you can't look at the casual gamers when attempting to figure out a percentage of people who powershield because they simply dont care enough to learn many of the advanced techniques anyway. If you go to tournaments, you will find plenty of people who powershield.

So only people who go to tourneys matter?

But because every character can reflect by powershielding, it kind of help to balance the game. Also, can't players powershield in SSB?

No, powershielding was introduced in SSBM. And how does it balance the game? It would seem to seriously nerf players who are more projectile-heavy (Link, Samus, etc) to the benefit of those who don't rely on them so much. It also cheapens the players who already have one of their B moves taken up by a projectile reflector.

 

[Takeshi245]

So only people who go to tourneys matter?



No, powershielding was introduced in SSBM. And how does it balance the game? It would seem to seriously nerf players who are more projectile-heavy (Link, Samus, etc) to the benefit of those who don't rely on them so much. It also cheapens the players who already have one of their B moves taken up by a projectile reflector.

It helps to give characters that don't have a projectile to at least give them a fighting chance.

 

[slikvik]

So only people who go to tourneys matter?

Well, clearly this topic addresses advanced techniques...so for this discussion...yea

 

[maxpower1227]

Shouldn't they already be balanced with that in mind though? If they weren't given a projectile, they should be given other traits to offset that (Falcon's speed, for instance, or Bowser's strength, though they kinda screwed him up). The game should not rely on a technique that is hard to learn (and not even mentioned in the instructions) to balance the characters.

 

[Takeshi245]

Shouldn't they already be balanced with that in mind though? If they weren't given a projectile, they should be given other traits to offset that (Falcon's speed, for instance, or Bowser's strength, though they kinda screwed him up). The game should not rely on a technique that is hard to learn (and not even mentioned in the instructions) to balance the characters.

The How to Play video and the instruction manual says that there are techniques to help you survive. Powershielding is one of them. Also, Falcon's speed isn't enough to make him invulnerable to projectiles.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Well, it is an extremely low percentage, if you consider the number of people who are casual players vs. the number of people that go to tournaments...

In any case, yes there are people that can powershield intentionally, both projectiles and physical attacks. I'm one of them... If you don't believe me, look up me vs. any Samus. Here's one that's kind of old, but i powershielded both attacks and missiles in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cydgS56w_c8&feature=PlayList&p=64C4E6E952838B07&index=1

Your powershielding is VERY impressive but still... you're using Peach. Isn't it easy to powershield with her because her sheild has a lot more "free space"? Try it with DK or GaW. LOL

 

[slikvik]

Shouldn't they already be balanced with that in mind though? If they weren't given a projectile, they should be given other traits to offset that (Falcon's speed, for instance, or Bowser's strength, though they kinda screwed him up). The game should not rely on a technique that is hard to learn (and not even mentioned in the instructions) to balance the characters.

l-canceling wasnt mentioned in the instructions. The should probably take that out too. You know what, lets take everything that wasn't mentioned in the instructions out...wow seriously. think about your arguments before you post them

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I think SH, FF, DI, and L cancel MUST stay for the game to remain competitive. Wavedashing may be "fixed," but it doesn't really matter to me: There will be new exploits here and there, or something to intentionally replace it. But if the techs that were in Melee get taken out, the game will become alltogether less skillful than either melee or SSB64 were, and the competitive community will die: The game will be shallow and have no room for the skilled player to demonstrate skill. So what if you can perfectly L cancel your SHFFL's if there's no L cancel in the game? Who cares if you know the appropriate DI when getting chaingrabbed by a character when there's no DI? Tech's have to stay, or competitive smash goes (or rather, stays - with melee, but that'd be a shame).

 

[maxpower1227]

l-canceling wasnt mentioned in the instructions. The should probably take that out too. You know what, lets take everything that wasn't mentioned in the instructions out...wow seriously. think about your arguments before you post them

Nobody was arguing that L-cancelling was necessary or helpful to balance out the characters. Quit being a j*****s.

 

[Takeshi245]

Nobody was arguing that L-cancelling was necessary or helpful to balance out the characters. Quit being a j*****s.

Maxpower, he was just using that as an example.

 

[slikvik]

Nobody was arguing that L-cancelling was necessary or helpful to balance out the characters. Quit being a j*****s.

lol, quit making ******** posts

 

[maxpower1227]

I said that the game's designers are probably not going to base the issue of character balance around a lot of advanced techniques that aren't explicitly known to the casual gamer. That's not ********; it's perfectly reasonable, even if it is somehow incorrect.

 

[Takeshi245]

I said that the game's designers are probably not going to base the issue of character balance around a lot of advanced techniques that aren't explicitly known to the casual gamer. That's not ********; it's perfectly reasonable, even if it is somehow incorrect.

Something that's perfectly reasonable can't be somehow incorrect. It's contradictory. Besides, Sakurai and his team are going to have balance in mind, quite possibly along with the other advanced techniques with what they did with l-canceling. In SSB, l-canceling is lagless. They didn't know about it. In Melee, they added lag even though it's not much. They may do the same to wavedashing by increasing friction so that wavedashes aren't long like Luigi's.

 

[maxpower1227]

Something that's perfectly reasonable can't be somehow incorrect. It's contradictory.

Yes, it can. It's perfectly reasonable to think that the Earth is closest to the sun in July and farthest from it in January, but it's not correct.

 

[Takeshi245]

Yes, it can. It's perfectly reasonable to think that the Earth is closest to the sun in July and farthest from it in January, but it's not correct.

I thought you were talking about something being perfectly reasonable as in something that can't be wrong whatsoever like 2+2 will always equal 4 reasonable.

 

[slikvik]

I don't really like powershielding either. It's something I NEVER see human players do

I'd prefer for them to remove powershielding (a move that also makes no sense)

loool, no seriously. reread this.

And, ok, some people here know humans who can power shield. That's not surprising on a board such as this. But what percentage of people who play Smash can do it? I'd wager it's EXTREMELY low

And it seems people tend to agree with me. Huh.

not really

Not to mention characters who have actual reflecting moves (Fox, Falco, the Marios, Zelda) would seem cheapened in a way.

And yes, I'm aware that Fox's reflector and the power shield are NOT the same thing at all, but I just liked it better when only certain characters would reflect projectiles. At least it makes sense when Fox or Mario does it.

your personal preference means nothing

So only people who go to tourneys matter?



No, powershielding was introduced in SSBM. And how does it balance the game? It would seem to seriously nerf players who are more projectile-heavy (Link, Samus, etc) to the benefit of those who don't rely on them so much. It also cheapens the players who already have one of their B moves taken up by a projectile reflector.

yea, when youre arguing about advanced techniques, only the people who actually use them matter. and your second paragraph is meaningless

Shouldn't they already be balanced with that in mind though? If they weren't given a projectile, they should be given other traits to offset that (Falcon's speed, for instance, or Bowser's strength, though they kinda screwed him up). The game should not rely on a technique that is hard to learn (and not even mentioned in the instructions) to balance the characters.

your last sentence is ********. instruction manual? i threw that out years ago...

Nobody was arguing that L-cancelling was necessary or helpful to balance out the characters. Quit being a j*****s.

just using it as an example.

 

[maxpower1227]

You were talking about something being perfectly reasonable as in something that can't be wrong whatsoever like 2+2 will always equal 4 reasonable.

*sigh*

I said that the game's designers are probably not going to base the issue of character balance around a lot of advanced techniques that aren't explicitly known to the casual gamer.

I was talking about the intent of the game designers. I said that it's perfectly reasonable for me to think that about their intent. This is getting ridiculous. I'm done playing semantics.

not really

Two people posted in agreement with me right before I said that...

and your second paragraph is meaningless

Translation: I have nothing to counter this particular point, so I'll just declare it "meaningless".

 

[slikvik]

*sigh*




I was talking about the intent of the game designers. I said that it's perfectly reasonable for me to think that about their intent. This is getting ridiculous. I'm done playing semantics.



Two people posted in agreement with me right before I said that...



Translation: I have nothing to counter this particular point, so I'll just declare it "meaningless".

lol, i just got tired of refuting all of your ridiculous posts. ill just end with this. you are a scrub. it doesnt matter what they take out of brawl because you are not going to be good at it

 

[maxpower1227]

k

Better luck next time, chief

 

[slikvik]

k

Better luck next time, chief

...lol, someone bad at the game shouldnt spend so much time on the forums

 

[Takeshi245]

Okay...well, these techniques should be kept. Casual gamers aren't going to powershield constantly. Maybe they'll powershield by mistake, but that's it. If advanced techniques are taken out Brawl, then it wouldn't be difficult to master. If people don't want to use these techniques, then don't use them. Maxpower777, you are right about casual gamers not doing the powershielding constantly.

 

[trademark0013]

My opinion: people shouldn't invest so much time in a video game. There are much more enjoyable things to do in life, these games, be good or bad (but my opinion is that Brawl will be SOOO much more awesome than Melee, bloody advanced techniques or not ((they can burn for all I care XD)) are for fun, not to make something like a career out of it. No offence to all the hardcore gamers, but anyone who would fly to another town just to go to a tournament, really NEEDS to sit down and look at their life, and not invest so much OF their life into a game.

Just an opinion though, the ADV. TECH's can rot in... a place where things rot, for all I care XD

wether or not there are advanced techniques shouldnt take away from the fun of the game. if u want to get better, learn them. its as simple as that.
even if there werent any advanced techs, you could still become pro at a game IE SF2

how is going to another town to play a game that bad? its not liek we do this everyday. most smashers do have lives outside the game. plus, u posting on a forums alone takes away from this "life" u claim everyone should have

 

[trademark0013]

**** dbl post :-P

 

[Sundown]

My opinion: people shouldn't invest so much time in a video game. There are much more enjoyable things to do in life, these games, be good or bad (but my opinion is that Brawl will be SOOO much more awesome than Melee, bloody advanced techniques or not ((they can burn for all I care XD)) are for fun, not to make something like a career out of it. No offence to all the hardcore gamers, but anyone who would fly to another town just to go to a tournament, really NEEDS to sit down and look at their life, and not invest so much OF their life into a game.

Just an opinion though, the ADV. TECH's can rot in... a place where things rot, for all I care XD

I know you werent trying to be an *******, so ill try to not be an ******* myself. People that fly to another town, or to another country to go to a tournament, do so cuz they love the game and love the competition, and they DO NOT have to sit down and look at their life.

Now, no offence to you, but people who use their time to post in a hardcore gamer site, about how they feel about hardcore games traveling to tournaments, specially when you are in NO WAY affected by them, its people like you who REALLY should sit down and look at your life.

I mean, seriously... wtf is the problem in doing what we love?: NONE

What is the problem in random people crticizing what others love?: I think you can go ahead and figure that one out

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Let's think of it this way...was there anything in SSB64 that didn't appear in Melee? Why would anything get taken out? The only things that get removed are actual glitches like Link's boomerang float trick and knockback problems.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Nobody was arguing that L-cancelling was necessary or helpful to balance out the characters. Quit being a j*****s.

You're such a hypocrite,it's not even funny.

Despite your current arguments on advanced techniques,anyone can say that they were intentional,but the fact of that matter is,they are.

Common techniques such as shuffl only derive from common used techniques such as Short Hop,Fast Fall,etc.

Techniques such as the WaveDash are physics exploits rather than a glitch.Since it varies based on your characters traction,you can easilty see that it is an intentional physics exploit,we just deceided to implement it in to our gameplay.

I can't understand why people complain about the game being difficult to play when they don't even attempt to practice a technique.Are noobs so selfish that we cannot have our own way to play? Why not have the options to cooperate and respect the way we play?

The answer is easy,you are an envious person.You can't live with another person having satisfaction because you don't think that you are strong enough to live with another persons ideals,rather you want yours to be known,but put no of the afromentioned effort.

Here is a quote from one of my post:

"No one can live knowing another posses personal satisfaction.By taking it away,you believe that your opinion becomes more important,but you only show that you do not have the strength or knowledge to spread your opinions to others.By limiting your options,you only show weakness and confine to your limitations.By taking away another persons ability to choose,you take away the essential thing that makes an opinion come to reality,the consumer.

Those who cannot appreciate anothers satisfaction can only posses envy."

Basically what i'm saying is you're weak.You think that just because you cannot play on such a high level,other must dwel with you,lacking satisfaction.
You have to way you play,and we have the way we play,so leave us alone and play the game your way.

Us as a community have faced a bunch of BS'ing people like you forcing their opinions on us,and all of them have then been declined.I suggest you quit wasting your time on us,because WE DON'T care about your opinions,and despite how intelligent your presentation is,you're just a scrub.

GG noob.

 

[Takeshi245]

You're such a hypocrite,it's not even funny.

Despite your current arguments on advanced techniques,anyone can say that they were intentional,but the fact of that matter is,they are.

Common techniques such as shuffl only derive from common used techniques such as Short Hop,Fast Fall,etc.

Techniques such as the WaveDash are physics exploits rather than a glitch.Since it varies based on your characters traction,you can easilty see that it is an intentional physics exploit,we just deceided to implement it in to our gameplay.

I can't understand why people complain about the game being difficult to play when they don't even attempt to practice a technique.Are noobs so selfish that we cannot have our own way to play? Why not have the options to cooperate and respect the way we play?

The answer is easy,you are an envious person.You can't live with another person having satisfaction because you don't think that you are strong enough to live with another persons ideals,rather you want yours to be known,but put no of the afromentioned effort.

Here is a quote from one of my post:

"No one can live knowing another posses personal satisfaction.By taking it away,you believe that your opinion becomes more important,but you only show that you do not have the strength or knowledge to spread your opinions to others.By limiting your options,you only show weakness and confine to your limitations.By taking away another persons ability to choose,you take away the essential thing that makes an opinion come to reality,the consumer.

Those who cannot appreciate anothers satisfaction can only posses envy."

Basically what i'm saying is you're weak.You think that just because you cannot play on such a high level,other must dwel with you,lacking satisfaction.
You have to way you play,and we have the way we play,so leave us alone and play the game your way.

Us as a community have faced a bunch of BS'ing people like you forcing their opinions on us,and all of them have then been declined.I suggest you quit wasting your time on us,because WE DON'T care about your opinions,and despite how intelligent your presentation is,you're just a scrub.

GG noob.

You just about summed up this thread.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

You're such a hypocrite,it's not even funny.

Despite your current arguments on advanced techniques,anyone can say that they were intentional,but the fact of that matter is,they are.

Common techniques such as shuffl only derive from common used techniques such as Short Hop,Fast Fall,etc.

Techniques such as the WaveDash are physics exploits rather than a glitch.Since it varies based on your characters traction,you can easilty see that it is an intentional physics exploit,we just deceided to implement it in to our gameplay.

I can't understand why people complain about the game being difficult to play when they don't even attempt to practice a technique.Are noobs so selfish that we cannot have our own way to play? Why not have the options to cooperate and respect the way we play?

The answer is easy,you are an envious person.You can't live with another person having satisfaction because you don't think that you are strong enough to live with another persons ideals,rather you want yours to be known,but put no of the afromentioned effort.

Here is a quote from one of my post:

"No one can live knowing another posses personal satisfaction.By taking it away,you believe that your opinion becomes more important,but you only show that you do not have the strength or knowledge to spread your opinions to others.By limiting your options,you only show weakness and confine to your limitations.By taking away another persons ability to choose,you take away the essential thing that makes an opinion come to reality,the consumer.

Those who cannot appreciate anothers satisfaction can only posses envy."

Basically what i'm saying is you're weak.You think that just because you cannot play on such a high level,other must dwel with you,lacking satisfaction.
You have to way you play,and we have the way we play,so leave us alone and play the game your way.

Us as a community have faced a bunch of BS'ing people like you forcing their opinions on us,and all of them have then been declined.I suggest you quit wasting your time on us,because WE DON'T care about your opinions,and despite how intelligent your presentation is,you're just a scrub.

GG noob.

That was your best post so far man. You really got inside the scrubs head better than any of us have to date, even Mookie.

Very good psychological analysis, accurate too, of a very jealous person. Who cleans floors.

 

[slikvik]

"No one can live knowing another posses personal satisfaction.By taking it away,you believe that your opinion becomes more important,but you only show that you do not have the strength or knowledge to spread your opinions to others.By limiting your options,you only show weakness and confine to your limitations.By taking away another persons ability to choose,you take away the essential thing that makes an opinion come to reality,the consumer."

Give this man a medal

 

[trademark0013]

You're such a hypocrite,it's not even funny.

Despite your current arguments on advanced techniques,anyone can say that they were intentional,but the fact of that matter is,they are.

Common techniques such as shuffl only derive from common used techniques such as Short Hop,Fast Fall,etc.

Techniques such as the WaveDash are physics exploits rather than a glitch.Since it varies based on your characters traction,you can easilty see that it is an intentional physics exploit,we just deceided to implement it in to our gameplay.

I can't understand why people complain about the game being difficult to play when they don't even attempt to practice a technique.Are noobs so selfish that we cannot have our own way to play? Why not have the options to cooperate and respect the way we play?

The answer is easy,you are an envious person.You can't live with another person having satisfaction because you don't think that you are strong enough to live with another persons ideals,rather you want yours to be known,but put no of the afromentioned effort.

Here is a quote from one of my post:

"No one can live knowing another posses personal satisfaction.By taking it away,you believe that your opinion becomes more important,but you only show that you do not have the strength or knowledge to spread your opinions to others.By limiting your options,you only show weakness and confine to your limitations.By taking away another persons ability to choose,you take away the essential thing that makes an opinion come to reality,the consumer.

Those who cannot appreciate anothers satisfaction can only posses envy."

Basically what i'm saying is you're weak.You think that just because you cannot play on such a high level,other must dwel with you,lacking satisfaction.
You have to way you play,and we have the way we play,so leave us alone and play the game your way.

Us as a community have faced a bunch of BS'ing people like you forcing their opinions on us,and all of them have then been declined.I suggest you quit wasting your time on us,because WE DON'T care about your opinions,and despite how intelligent your presentation is,you're just a scrub.

GG noob.

i love you

EDIT// sundown, i love ur sig

 

[WiGGleZ]

i think that since brawl is running on the same engine then itll all be the same but if it doesnt who cares well eventually learn new techniques..im all for learning new techniques and everyone starting at the same level

 

[trademark0013]

im all for learning new techniques and everyone starting at the same level

midnight-release brawl tournament anyone?

 

[goodkid]

Adv. techs will be there

 

[trademark0013]

^^^ like cracker launching?

 

[Dark Sonic]

You're such a hypocrite,it's not even funny.

Despite your current arguments on advanced techniques,anyone can say that they were intentional,but the fact of that matter is,they are.

Common techniques such as shuffl only derive from common used techniques such as Short Hop,Fast Fall,etc.

Techniques such as the WaveDash are physics exploits rather than a glitch.Since it varies based on your characters traction,you can easilty see that it is an intentional physics exploit,we just deceided to implement it in to our gameplay.

I can't understand why people complain about the game being difficult to play when they don't even attempt to practice a technique.Are noobs so selfish that we cannot have our own way to play? Why not have the options to cooperate and respect the way we play?

The answer is easy,you are an envious person.You can't live with another person having satisfaction because you don't think that you are strong enough to live with another persons ideals,rather you want yours to be known,but put no of the afromentioned effort.

Here is a quote from one of my post:

"No one can live knowing another posses personal satisfaction.By taking it away,you believe that your opinion becomes more important,but you only show that you do not have the strength or knowledge to spread your opinions to others.By limiting your options,you only show weakness and confine to your limitations.By taking away another persons ability to choose,you take away the essential thing that makes an opinion come to reality,the consumer.

Those who cannot appreciate anothers satisfaction can only posses envy."

Basically what i'm saying is you're weak.You think that just because you cannot play on such a high level,other must dwel with you,lacking satisfaction.
You have to way you play,and we have the way we play,so leave us alone and play the game your way.

Us as a community have faced a bunch of BS'ing people like you forcing their opinions on us,and all of them have then been declined.I suggest you quit wasting your time on us,because WE DON'T care about your opinions,and despite how intelligent your presentation is,you're just a scrub.

GG noob.

THAT.....WAS.....EPIC

Eternal phoenix Fire has

TEH PHIR3

 

[Superstar]

Eternal phoenix Fire, you are a genious. Even though it was kinda difficult to read [half asleep and you had some errors in your grammar], it was an excellent post. You summed up the techs, and you flamed without the use of fire, simply excellent, the most insulting way to dismiss someone.

I always thought that although high ranking players could powershield, that it could not be done 100% of the time consistently in a serious match. If it can be done at least half of the time, I'm going to start practicing my powershield [I admit, I stink in the game, but I wish to be good].

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I have decided, in both the best interests of mainly myself, that they should do one of two things.

Say bye-bye to advanced techs (one or many)

OR

Make them all official. I mean like seriously official. Like in the manuals/strategy guides/ect.

If they're official, no one (including myself) can complain about anything. They'll be official, end of story.

Peace Out.

 

[maxpower1227]

You're such a hypocrite,it's not even funny.

Despite your current arguments on advanced techniques,anyone can say that they were intentional,but the fact of that matter is,they are.

Common techniques such as shuffl only derive from common used techniques such as Short Hop,Fast Fall,etc.

Techniques such as the WaveDash are physics exploits rather than a glitch.Since it varies based on your characters traction,you can easilty see that it is an intentional physics exploit,we just deceided to implement it in to our gameplay.

I can't understand why people complain about the game being difficult to play when they don't even attempt to practice a technique.Are noobs so selfish that we cannot have our own way to play? Why not have the options to cooperate and respect the way we play?

The answer is easy,you are an envious person.You can't live with another person having satisfaction because you don't think that you are strong enough to live with another persons ideals,rather you want yours to be known,but put no of the afromentioned effort.

Here is a quote from one of my post:

"No one can live knowing another posses personal satisfaction.By taking it away,you believe that your opinion becomes more important,but you only show that you do not have the strength or knowledge to spread your opinions to others.By limiting your options,you only show weakness and confine to your limitations.By taking away another persons ability to choose,you take away the essential thing that makes an opinion come to reality,the consumer.

Those who cannot appreciate anothers satisfaction can only posses envy."

Basically what i'm saying is you're weak.You think that just because you cannot play on such a high level,other must dwel with you,lacking satisfaction.
You have to way you play,and we have the way we play,so leave us alone and play the game your way.

Us as a community have faced a bunch of BS'ing people like you forcing their opinions on us,and all of them have then been declined.I suggest you quit wasting your time on us,because WE DON'T care about your opinions,and despite how intelligent your presentation is,you're just a scrub.

GG noob.

Wow. The level of elitism from this board's advanced players is staggering.

I'm just going to address one of your points. I can play this game at a high level. I cannot wavedash proficiently, but as has been pointed out many many many times, that is only a SMALL part of what it takes to play skillfully. I can SHFFL, shine spike, circle jump, dash dance, L-cancel (though not 100% of the time), and do a number of other fairly advanced techniques. I can also skillfully use or defend against most items, deal with stage hazards, etc. Since Smash has been out, I have only met ONE person who can consistently defeat me - a guy who absolutely wiped the floor with me a few years ago as Sheik, prompting me to abandon Link and take up Fox.

My arguments against certain techniques have NEVER been because "I can't do them". They have been because those techniques, in my opinion, do not fit into the Smash Bros philosophy of offering very simple and accessible controls. On the specific issue of power shielding, my argument was that the technique was more of a way to artificially boost computer AI than to enhance human matches.

Now, if any of you elite players can accept that and debate these issues without condescension and labelling of people you don't like as "scrubs" (what a lame insult), then by all means, PLEASE do so.