Power Shield Canceling (PSC) New AT!

[Jonas]

Wicked find--this REALLY helps Bowser.

Bowser can already punish Tornado with Up B OOS. This new tech probably lets him do it as soon as nado hits shield though, so maybe this helps him do it more consistently.

 

[GimR]

Bowser can already punish Tornado with Up B OOS. This new tech probably lets him do it as soon as nado hits shield though, so maybe this helps him do it more consistently.

in the video I put that PScing along with other oos options makes tornado more punishable. PSCing doesn't help upB OOS at all. I was just showing all of the options available for most characters

 

[Yikarur]

D: so much said in this thread is so wrong, I wished I had followed this thread earlier.
GIMR da bess though

 

[Mister Eric]

GIMR, sorry if it's mentioned somewhere before, but what does the first input of A do? Just cancel the PS lag? and then the 2nd A input bring out the move right?

so if I wanted to grab, I would essentially hold shield during both A inputs?
and if I wanted do let's say an up tilt out of PSC, i would PS, let go of shield in put A and have the stick tilted upward before the 2nd A? I mean I could prob have it tilted right after the shield, I just want to make sure.

Going to be working on this a lot for the next few days.

 

[Yikarur]

you only need one A input, don't know where the idea of doing 2 Attack inputs comes from.
if you want to grab you just shield and grab like your used to.
PS doesn't effect your shieldgrab ability (framewise) because you still have the same hitlag and the same stun.
it just negates pushback and shield damage and gives your shield drop IASA frames.
well to run in and PS to Grab you have to Shield in one frame and grab in the next one.

 

[Mister Eric]

I'm just going from what I'm seeing in the demonstrational vid. A double tapping of A.

edit:
Could I then PS > let go > input the A and that be my attack?
I have not been privileged to test this out whatsoever.

 

[NickRiddle]

I'm just going from what I'm seeing in the demonstrational vid. A double tapping of A.

edit:
Could I then PS > let go > input the A and that be my attack?
I have not been privileged to test this out whatsoever.

The double-tap was because Olimar has two jabs.

 

[JTsm]

amazing find, love it. Doesn't really help me as an mk main tho.

Edit: I guess characters with good utils benefit the most.

snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake

 

[bigman40]

K, from what I tested, Innocentroads was able to buffer a move during the hitlag by this method:

Shield
let go of shield before move hits (has to be powershielded)
buffer move during hitlag

I haven't been able to get Fsmash or Usmash out of it. Using tap jump will give you a jump > nair instead of an utilt. More to come.

 

[Yikarur]

everything in innocentroads vid is known since the release.
and your way of buffering is wrong

you have to PS it.
then you have to hold shield until hitlag ends and shield stun begins (you have to release shield in shield stun, not earlier)
then you press the move you want to buffer in shield stun.

What is shown in the PSC Vid is not even the described method.
InnocentRoads method isn't used at all to jab into the tornado

it's just PS to Jab.

look.

You can't use "PSC" (meh.. that name) against a fresh tornado, only against stale one's
a fresh tornado has 4 frames of shieldhitlag and one frame of shield stun, MK is not affected of this hitlag
means it looks like this:
Hit Lag Lag Lag Lag Stun Hit
you don't even have one frame of time to do anything.
A Stale Tornado doesn't have shieldhitlag and stun at all so there it looks like
Hit(PS'd) Drop Drop Drop Drop Drop Hit
Drop = shield drop, you shield drop immediately after the hitframe because stale tornado, like I said, has no shield stun or shield hitlag.
This what is looks like if you initiate a Jab OoPowershield:
Hit (PS'd) F1 F2 F3 < here is the point where most jab hits.
That means you can easily grab out of a stale tornado too if you have a 6 frame grab without powershielding. (tough timing though)

hope I enlightend you.

 

[bigman40]

No, I actually tested this and confirmed that it's buffered the jab during the hitlag.

 

[Yikarur]

that's a special case that occurs if you don't hold the shield button in the PS Frame because of the 7 frames you are actually forced to hold your shield up D:
can't say why, it needs to be something in the coding.

 

[Pikabunz]

Easily grab out of tornado? If they're pressing B, it's impossible.

 

[bigman40]

It has to be the coding, because it's extremely strict timing.

The full method I found to make it work is listed as follows:

Start shield > let go of shield and let animation proceed > enemy hits shield causing a PS > during hitlag, buffer any move.

The restrictions are:

Can't hold shield on same frame as the PS
Have to let go of shield 1 frame before PS occurs


Yika is telling me this isn't Innocentroads method, but it's something I found while testing it myself in frame advance.

 

[Yikarur]

I didn't know that the intervalls between tornado hits are smaller if B is pressed continously, that makes "PSC" for everything but Jabs (and few other thinks) useless o:

 

[Player 7]

Hey guys, I made a small video of PSC's grab, it's by far the easiest PSC's follow-up. Later I think I will make another with more stuff, but check ot out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTtCfHQVe3g

 

[GimR]

everything in innocentroads vid is known since the release.
and your way of buffering is wrong

you have to PS it.
then you have to hold shield until hitlag ends and shield stun begins (you have to release shield in shield stun, not earlier)
then you press the move you want to buffer in shield stun.

What is shown in the PSC Vid is not even the described method.
InnocentRoads method isn't used at all to jab into the tornado

it's just PS to Jab.

look.

You can't use "PSC" (meh.. that name) against a fresh tornado, only against stale one's
a fresh tornado has 4 frames of shieldhitlag and one frame of shield stun, MK is not affected of this hitlag
means it looks like this:
Hit Lag Lag Lag Lag Stun Hit
you don't even have one frame of time to do anything.
A Stale Tornado doesn't have shieldhitlag and stun at all so there it looks like
Hit(PS'd) Drop Drop Drop Drop Drop Hit
Drop = shield drop, you shield drop immediately after the hitframe because stale tornado, like I said, has no shield stun or shield hitlag.
This what is looks like if you initiate a Jab OoPowershield:
Hit (PS'd) F1 F2 F3 < here is the point where most jab hits.
That means you can easily grab out of a stale tornado too if you have a 6 frame grab without powershielding. (tough timing though)

hope I enlightend you.

I know what you said about fresh nado is wrong because I psc jabbed the first try multiple times.

also, you don't have to psc to grab since you van already cancel your shield drop animation with grab

 

[Yikarur]

do you do it by yourself? if you're to slow, the last loop of the tornado to "tornado end" have a greater intervall.
I'm pretty sure that it is impossible to "PSC" into the true fresh tornado.

 

[GimR]

do you do it by yourself? if you're to slow, the last loop of the tornado to "tornado end" have a greater intervall.
I'm pretty sure that it is impossible to "PSC" into the true fresh tornado.

watch the video, I show the start up of every nado, and no I didn't do it by myself, Logic tried his best to tornado me properly(besides coming from above obviously)

I know weak tornado is easier to punish that's why I didn't do that one.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

And just like that, Brawl gets more technical. Whether it's old or not seems to be irrelevant. But the application is relevant.

So, I may be jumping the gun here, can you BDAUCS out of this?

And what does this do to the camping game?

 

[Sephy95]

Hm? MKs not so tough after all...

 

[Pikabunz]

Yika is right, a fresh tornado has hitlag and stun making it impossible to do anything out of a power shield.

 

[Yikarur]

watch the video, I show the start up of every nado, and no I didn't do it by myself, Logic tried his best to tornado me properly(besides coming from above obviously)

I know weak tornado is easier to punish that's why I didn't do that one.

the only video contains stale tornado only, you can't see the shield at all means you don't have shield hitlag and you don't have shieldstun, means it was a stale one.
You can't even angle your shield in a fresh tornado because you have no free frame between hits.
The only thing you can do in a fresh tornado is upB OoS with invincibility on frame 1.

 

[Eagleye893]

After thinking, this is just proper buffering of attacks and other things out of a Powershield. PS is supposed to end near instantaneously, and because of how quickly it does end, people might not have been able to properly input things due to a.) lag or b.) slow fingers.

This technique isn't NEW exactly, but it's just a revision of people's inputs and swiftness concerning PS.



Oh... One also has to instantly let go of shield and input stuff to attack within 1-3 frames. Being able to do that with normal control inputs is difficult, because shoulder buttons... are... Weird...

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

Idk if it was mentioned, but I was just messing around with this in training mode on 1/4 speed with ROB and it seems that this can be effective against DK's UpB (I only tried PSC>jab).

Not really as big a deal as the tornado, but idk if any characters have trouble with DK's up-b. If they do, I feel like this is a better option than letting it eat your shield away.

 

[Blacknight99923]

yo to all the smash lab people in this thread. I have an amazing idea.

how about we discuss this in the smash lab, figure out whats ACTUALLY the case and THEN post on the boards

unless we've solved our debacle

and I love marth for having that invisibility on frame 1 <3

 

[culexus・wau]

You and your f1 reversals soren.

you guys should figure the frame advantage on perfect shielding ledge attacks imo.

really easy thing to powershield that is really laggy [well some less then others (ZSS)]

 

[Yikarur]

I already stated whats the case is.
Fact one: that tornado thing has nothing to do with innocentroads buffering technique
Fact Two: the whole concept doesn't work against a fresh tornado because of shield hitlag + stun. (hitlag is not suffered by MK)
Fact Three: the intervalls between MKs tornado hits can be controlled by MK, if MK presses B the intervalls goes down from 6 frames (you could grab with 6 frame grabs in the video because of grab armor you remember) to 4 frames.
Frames:
Without B: hit nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing hit
With B: hit nothing nothing nothing hit
if MK presses B you can only hit with frame 3 moves out of PS or frame 4 moves that are strong enough (didn't know one yet) or trancendent (they'll trade)

 

[BlueBomberXTJ]

Lol this is to good.

 

[milesg2g]

So let me gets this straight.

1. You can't do this to a fresh nado?
2. Only scrub Mk's will approach you with nado?
3. Smart Mk's only nado when you trip or are in the air?

This must be a bad AT.

Sike naw lol

This thing seems like it's pretty good, and will be sick if the ground defense metagame steps up a lot.

Just because it's too technical, and almost complete situational doesn't mean we should just like shoot it down. Most of the time if you're playing against a good MK 9/10 you earned your way to play it in bracket somewhere so you should be @ the same skill as it. The cool thing about this AT is if you're a smart player you'll bait nado's or predict them and be ready to use this when it comes in handy.


Not to mention, MK's not the only MU you have to worry about. This can work on so many other characters.

 

[GimR]

the only video contains stale tornado only, you can't see the shield at all means you don't have shield hitlag and you don't have shieldstun, means it was a stale one.
You can't even angle your shield in a fresh tornado because you have no free frame between hits.
The only thing you can do in a fresh tornado is upB OoS with invincibility on frame 1.

I told you that in multiple instances I hit MK out of the nado on the very first try, so not all of the nados were stale. You might be able to cancel shield stun in some instances, I'm not sure yet

Also, if what you're saying is true, that means on a fresh nado you could just shield it and then let go of shield and your character would be forced to shield the whole time.

 

[Pikabunz]

Fresh tornado with B being tapped

1 - Tornado hits/Shield Hitlag
2 - Shield Hitlag
3 - Shield Hitlag
4 - Shield Hitlag
5 - Shield Hitlag
6 - Tornado hits/Shield Hitlag
7 - Shield Hitlag
8 - Shield Hitlag
9 - Shield Hitlag
10 - Shield Hitlag
11 - Tornado hits/Shield Hitlag
12 - Shield Hitlag
13 - Shield Hitlag
14 - Shield Hitlag
15 - Shield Hitlag



Stale tornado with B being tapped

1 - Tornado hits/Shield Hitlag
2 -
3 -
4 -
5 -
6 - Tornado hits/Shield Hitlag
7 -
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 - Tornado hits/Shield Hitlag
12 -
13 -
14 -
15 -

Even though you get shield hitlag every frame in fresh tornado, you are not stuck in it the entire time. Each hit of tornado gives 5 frames of hitlag. After the 5th frame of hitlag is the only time you can do something before the new hitlag from the next hit starts. The only useful thing you can do is UpB OoS if it has invincibility on the first frame.

 

[GimR]

@KPrime: do you mean shield hitsun?


Also, after doing some testing, I think there might be two types of shield stun

 

[Flayl]

Hitlag is when your character's model is frozen. Hitstun is when your character's model is no longer frozen but cannot perform any move.

 

[GimR]

Hitlag is when your character's model is frozen. Hitstun is when your character's model is no longer frozen but cannot perform any move.

yeah I know, shield stun usually occurs to both the attacker and the attackee though so there should only be 1 frame of shield lag on both characters

 

[Pikabunz]

Hitlag is the one that happens to both characters. Shield stun happens after hitlag and only to the shielder.

 

[Yikarur]

Yeah with exceptions, Projectiles, Fox/Falco Illusions and MKs tornado as examples do not include hitlag for the attacker.

 

[GimR]

Yeah, Sry i mistyped, also, I noticed that stupid crap with falcos forward b, ><

I call hit lag on the shield, shield lag for some reason and I accidentally called it shield stun in my post above

 

[-LzR-]

You know, can't we talk about some actually practical uses for this instead of this nado **** that doesn't work in practice? Can't you punish Falco's jab with this tech?

 

[GimR]

okay, so I went into training mode ,where there is no scaling, in frame advance mode, and I was able to punish a tornado with Squirtles and Falco's jabs out of PSC. So There ARE holes