Potential Gripes with Samus (Feedback)

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

It's called giving feedback. The thing that's gotten Project M this far in the first place. If you think people are just gonna shut up because the PMBR makes perfect decisions all the time and they should never be questioned, you got another thing coming.

Just because any comment anyone gives can be considered feedback doesn't mean the quality of feedback can't improve. In this case I feel bubbaking is griping more than he is critiquing. He gave six complaints. Two of them aren't Samus-specific, and if he played PM a bit more or talked to anyone else about it he would have realized this. One I agreed on. The other three are differences. If his claim is that Samus isn't a perfect Melee copy then his complaints are valid, but instead he's just listing differences he's noticed and complaining that they aren't how they used to be. What I'm saying is that though he's giving feedback, I'm not sure what he expects in response. Does he want Samus to have a better ice fsmash? What for? Longer grab? What's wrong with the one now?

Perhaps I'm neglecting that I'm coming at this from a developer mindset and I'm taking everything else into perspective. Nothing's inherently wrong with Samus that he's listed (that isn't inherently wrong or linked with Brawl to begin with): her fsmash works; her up+b works; her grab works. However I did think bubbaking was griping a bit.

On a different note, as you said, feedback is what's 'gotten Project M this far in the first place.' Feedback presumes that PMBR doesn't know everything then, like you said. However, if feedback consists of presenting a problem without a solution, then your solution still rests on PMBR thinking up something - but that's to say Project M could have gotten mostly here without feedback: it's good to point out something that may spark an idea. bubbaking is saying these choices are a "problem," "not what i'm used to," and "not working how they're supposed to [compared to melee]."

Perhaps I've written too much. If I were to note bubbaking's feedback I would note it as this:

'Samus's ice moves don't seem useful enough to warrant me switching over to it.'

Why don't you tell all those Kirby players, who don't have their Copy Abilities working properly, to stop complaining because the game just came out?

PMBR is already on it. http://smashboards.com/threads/faq-why-arent-kirby-hats-perfect-copies.343442/

 

[MonkUnit]

Derf, there is no change in upB between Fire and Ice. Stances only change dtilt, fsmash, usmash, fair, smash missiles, and homing missiles.

 

[zephyrnereus]

is it me or is samus's short hop pretty much nonexistent? I just feel that it's a bit too awkwardly high and close to her regular jump height.

 

[Kati]

It's melee's short hop. It allows you to missile cancel on low platforms like ps1 or yoshi's story, or instantly l-cancel aerials such as nair on battlefield. It does however, prevent aggressive shffling.

 

[MonkUnit]

having a low short hop feels so wrong with samus lol

 

[0RLY]

When Samus dsmashes in PM, her foot is retracted as if trying to kick with her heel. It reduces her range. Her foot should stick out so she kicks with the blade of her foot and have the hitbox match. Her foot didn't stick out when she naired in melee, but I would like for her foot to stick out in PM.

 

[Serris]

When Samus dsmashes in PM, her foot is retracted as if trying to kick with her heel. It reduces her range. Her foot should stick out so she kicks with the blade of her foot and have the hitbox match. Her foot didn't stick out when she naired in melee, but I would like for her foot to stick out in PM.

The animation itself wouldn't make any sense. I don't know anyone who kicks with their toes facing outward. That's a surefire way to break your ankle, depending on the angle of impact. Powered suit of armor or not, the heel of the foot is where most of the energy would be dispersed on impact. It makes sense for her foot to be angled.

My only problem with Samus is that she just doesn't have enough priority to cover her bases. See: Her match-up with Mr. Game & Watch.

 

[Scidadle]

^ +1 I feel like in a world where a lot of the cast has disjointed hitboxes samus' hitboxes just fall short.

 

[bubbaking]

Whirling Fortress is safe because you can move away, and on most stages, can go to the ledge, which is Bowser's home. So if your opponent blocks it, or is at too low a percent, you can just hit and run. It leads to tech chases at medium percent, and KOs floaties at high percents.

Screw Attack is only safe if you have a platform for landing mix-ups and even then the landing can be read. Many characters can even punish on hit, even if you drift away from their DI. It does less damage, and never KOs unless Jigglypuff SDIs out of the second hitbox.

I'm just not sure how anyone can believe there's argument here.

If you're having trouble punishing a blocked Whirling Fortress that wasn't ledge-cancelled or sent off of a platform, then it might be time to start WDing OoS. Like I said, the move is also punishable on-hit at low %'s. Screw Attack can gun for platforms and ledges, and it's not really punishable on-hit, especially with platforms around (to duck through, not land on). The fact that Samus jets upwards means that she can also catch unsafe jumps above her (like if Falco tries to continue pressure after a shine).

why are you griping so much? this game just came out. it isn't even complete. just because you've gotten better doesn't mean you should forsake humility. my rebuttals below.

Feedback is feedback and it's really never too early for that. I didn't post this until a week after release, when I'd had sufficient time to measure up what felt wrong with Samus. Not exactly sure where humility plays into all this, but I cited my credentials to suggest that I do know what I'm talking about.

-what do you want to do about her tether? (i'm guessing) it's brawl's fault, i'm sure the pm team is aware of it and they'll get to it. i just work with it and don't get gimped that much.

I never said I wanted to DO anything about Samus' tether. I'm simply stating a problem to bring awareness to the issue in case it hasn't already arrived there. Now that they've assured me that they're aware of the problem (and given me an alternative to avoid it), I'm all good. Until then, there was no choice of being "gimped that much" or not. If the tether failed while you were offstage, you died. Period. <__<

-not sure what the complaint about the ice fsmash is. is the double attack on the shield useless? maybe. is trading samus' fsmash for a better fair and upsmash worth it? if you can show that samus wouldn't be 'too good' with a better ice fsmash then you may have a point, otherwise flame attacks are better for combos and finishing, while ice upsmash allows for a different combo/knockback and ice fair allows for better range/space control, delivering relatively high knockback as well.

My "complaint" about the ice fsmash is that it is a fairly useless move on a somewhat inferior (in almost every way) set. If fire is "better for combos and finishing", that doesn't really leave much reason to switch to ice, now does it? Better fair? Ice? I don't think so. Fire fair is almost all-out better. Its multiple hits definitely let it control space much more easily. You can safely pressure opponents on platforms with it (comboing them if you hit) and can also use it to get off the ledge. Ice fair doesn't do that and it's not that strong at all, either. Ice usmash is only situationally better. A better ice fsmash wouldn't make Samus even close to being "too good". All it would do is force opponents to respect her fsmash when she is in ice form. I fail to see how that makes Samus "too good".

-grab range got nerfed, but you acknowledge her grab is also faster now. this isn't a valid complaint.

I distinctively said, "Personally, I dislike this grab range nerf she received along with its speed buff, but that's actually more the gripes of a man who is too used to playing with Samus in Melee and being able to catch people from a mile away."
I clearly expressed that there was a fair trade-off. My distaste with the move isn't with it being 'bad' but with it not fitting the feel and playstyle of Samus. Samus has a good long-range poking game that would be well complimented with a nice long-ranged grab. If Samus' grab was laggier but longer (see: ZSS), it would actually feel better to me. The old grab used to catch rolls back and would give a reason to use a JC grab instead of a dash grab. That reason is now gone. I think Link now has a longer grab than Samus, which does not feel right at all.

 

[ph00tbag]

If there's no platform to provide safety, Screw Attack is most certainly punishable on hit. Play more Samus. So they're both situationally punishable on hit and on block, but Whirling Fortress does more damage, has KO potential, and has more invincibility. Seriously, it's okay to be wrong, but it's really stupid to insist that you're right while saying things that are wrong. You're allowed to just concede when you're wrong; I do it all the time.

 

[Serris]

I think her grab range could be extended just a tad. Maybe to the very end of the effect sprite. I tickled a Roy player with it yesterday, and the fact that it didn't grab him really annoyed me.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, play her more? Solo Melee Samus main who still plays Melee over here. I have yet to be punished by anyone when I have a platform to duck through (hence my "especially" part). When floaties try to punish my upB, with or without a plat, they usually end up getting screwed again. Without plats, only the spacees can really consistently punish because they can laser to leave tumble without any landing lag, but most spacees don't know or do that (whoops! ) . Idk, I was fair enough to say I could understand either side of this argument, but you're one the who's firmly unwilling to give any grounds for compromise or agreement to disagree here. <__<

Btw, you're just blatantly wrong about the "more invincibility" part. Going by the Melee frame data, Samus' Screw Attack has 5 frames of invinciblity, starting on frame 1, and it hits on frame 4, creating an invincible hitbox through perfect overlap. Bowser's Whirling Fortress has 4 frames of invincibility, starting on frame 1, and it hits on frame 5. That's still really good, but not on the same level as Samus' upB.

beam switching is easy, you just need to taunt cancel.

I tested this out. Samus doesn't get the beam swap if she cancels the taunt too early in the animation, it seems. I need to re-check for consistency, but that was a real let-down for me since that forcefully slows me down by placing an 'artificial limit' on how quickly I can switch phases.

The failed ledge grab thing makes me wanna punch something sometimes, but half the time it happens because you've already used it 3 times before returning to the stage. I guess that's a brawl mechanic.
It does happen other times too though, which is very annoying.
Other than that, ledge grapple is superior to UpB for recovering in every way.

The 3-tether limit is an anti-stall mechanic straight from Brawl. I'm not against it. What bothered me was the times it would fail before that limit when tethering from above or on the same level as the ledge. The ledge grapple is definitely more useful than her upB in some situations, but not "in every way". For one thing, the tether doesn't knock people off the ledge, so if someone is ledgehogging you, you're forced to jump onto the stage and eat whatever off-the-ledge option the opponent decides to hit you with (a weakness that was actually avoided by the Melee tether). In this situation, you may want to mix up your recovery with the Screw Attack. Secondly, you can't snap to ledges backwards, meaning you can't use it when under and behind the ledge on FD or CS. In those situations, you have to grind up the wall with Screw Attack. Thirdly, you can't turn around with the tether like you can with the Screw Attack.

 

[ph00tbag]

Then play Bowser more, too. Look, I've had this argument before from your perspective. I've learned now that what it comes down to is, screw attack is easier to punish, because once it's out, Samus has very few options to get away, and even if she can cancel the lag somehow, she's still very often above her opponent when she misses, which is the worst thing for Samus. Bowser can move very quickly in fortress, so that really only a few characters can actually punish on reaction, and even then only if Bowser isn't making immediately for a ledge, which he can do very often.

I mixed up the invincibilities on the moves, but it's not that big a difference, since Fortress is bigger, much moreso in PM.

 

[bubbaking]

Just because any comment anyone gives can be considered feedback doesn't mean the quality of feedback can't improve. In this case I feel bubbaking is griping more than he is critiquing. He gave six complaints. Two of them aren't Samus-specific, and if he played PM a bit more or talked to anyone else about it he would have realized this. One I agreed on. The other three are differences. If his claim is that Samus isn't a perfect Melee copy then his complaints are valid, but instead he's just listing differences he's noticed and complaining that they aren't how they used to be. What I'm saying is that though he's giving feedback, I'm not sure what he expects in response. Does he want Samus to have a better ice fsmash? What for? Longer grab? What's wrong with the one now?

Well, I am griping (on top of critiquing). Look at the title of this thread. I definitely didn't want Samus to a Melee copy, but I wanted her to have the same or similar feel and playstyle. I'm not just listing differences; I'm listing differences that end up being worse than what was already in Melee (when it's already been stated that former Melee chars will use their Melee selves as precedents) or that take away from the general feel of Samus. Samus zones with her tilts and punishes hard with her smashes, but ice fsmash isn't threatening at all. That two-hit gimmick to make it 'safe' switches around her tilt/smash priorities. The ice fsmash should probably be hitting as hard as Samus' Melee fsmash. A longer grab is more in line with Samus' long-range poking game, and it also gives her a reason to make a decision between using dash grab and standing grab. Even though this is a blatant comparison, P:M Samus' grab is just worse than Link's in every way, and that extremely bothers me. However, as I understand it, the PMBR is actually unable to give Samus a longer grab due to weird limitations, so I guess it can't be helped.

 

[Kati]

A video was posted showing the taunt cancel. Personally, as exciting as switching mid combo might be, I hope having to do the full animation is the norm.

 

[Serris]

My Wishlist:

• Additional priority on ice beam and power beam u-smash.
• First hit of ice beam f-smash freezes the opponent in place instead of knocking them away.
• Second hit of ice beam f-smash breaks the freeze effect and creates vertical pop-up with moderate hit stun, scales on percentage.
• Reduced recovery frames for ice beam f-smash.
• Slightly better downward reach for ice beam f-air hitbox.
• Increase grab range to the very end of the effect sprite.

I want to turn ice beam f-smash into a set-up tool for KOs. As it stands now, it's not a very good finisher compared to its power beam counterpart, so why not give it different utility? Maybe ice beam f-smash into sliding u-smash for a kill combo at higher percents?

 

[DerfMidWest]

with the taunt cancel you can't do it immediately, but you can still cancel it very quickly.
I've switched mid combo for edgeguards a lot.
once i switch, I tend to stay in ice mode though, although you do lose fsmash, you still have dtilt and ftilt

 

[Serris]

You know, I'm going to say something that many people will likely disagree with, but there is one area of Samus that could be improved by taking a cue from Brawl instead of Melee. Specifically, her u-air. In Brawl, multi-hits were guaranteed because the move did a better job of locking your opponents inside of its hitboxes. You could even fast-fall it and use it as a combo starter. If this was restored, d-throw to power beam u-smash to u-air would be much easier to hit consistently, and it would improve her combo game.

 

[MonkUnit]

I'm pretty sure her U-Air connected so much better and allowed her to even FF the U-Air and still keep them inside her due to Brawl DI.

 

[Serris]

I'm pretty sure her U-Air connected so much better and allowed her to even FF the U-Air and still keep them inside her due to Brawl DI.

Even so, I think changing her existing u-air to emulate its behavior in Brawl would be a very positive change for her.

 

[DMG]

You know, I'm going to say something that many people will likely disagree with, but there is one area of Samus that could be improved by taking a cue from Brawl instead of Melee. Specifically, her u-air. In Brawl, multi-hits were guaranteed because the move did a better job of locking your opponents inside of its hitboxes. You could even fast-fall it and use it as a combo starter. If this was restored, d-throw to power beam u-smash to u-air would be much easier to hit consistently, and it would improve her combo game.

Brawl had a better job of "sucking in" opponents with multi hit moves, but this was usually super duper nullified with SDI. Getting out of multi hits in Brawl was pretty easy if it gave you enough SDI frames (stuff like tornado after first hit, dancing blade, and certain jabs didn't give you much room to SDI). If you make the "suck in" too strong, then people won't have a chance to counter it with SDI. Especially since multi hits in Melee aren't nearly as easy to get out of compared to a G^W Bair in Brawl or something similar.


My feedback on Samus:


I enjoy just about everything about her, although some of the Ice stuff seems odd. I am OK with Ice Dtilt, because I see it as genuinely useful with the different knock back angle that's better for gimping/sending out instead of the strong pop up. I don't understand the Ice shards on Dtilt and Fsmash though. I understand the trade off between Fire and Ice, and how one form will be stronger in certain areas and then weaker in others, but Ice Fsmash seems just a tad too weak. Even despite the backward knockback, I almost 80% prefer trying to land a Dsmash instead of an Ice Fsmash because it's much stronger and might get me more. I am OK with Ice Fsmash being less strong or less useful, but I think the disparity between the two is a bit much. The shards at low % can chain after Fsmash, so that's cool I guess, but not worth the kill power difference. I would very slightly increase its kill power. Dtilt doesn't really need the shards though, unless they stun? I know the Fsmash ones do but I didn't think Dtilt did anything but pepper damage.


Smash Ice Missle seems fine. I don't know if there's anything different, besides how far they go and how hard they hit/damage. Do Ice missiles travel faster initially? Fire ones accelerate quicker but start slow? Idk. I thought Ice ones had more stun, but I think even that is the same.


I am OK with her grab, her tether, etc. Her crawling stuff looks a bit strong though. Not the crawl attack, but being able to do whatever you want out of crawl seems quite strong and annoying.


The only thing I would change about her (barring significant bugs or problems I haven't noticed, I already know the tether one) is I would consider giving her the N64 Bair. That's all.

I like Samus a lot. Thanks for your time

 

[Serris]

Brawl had a better job of "sucking in" opponents with multi hit moves, but this was usually super duper nullified with SDI. Getting out of multi hits in Brawl was pretty easy if it gave you enough SDI frames (stuff like tornado after first hit, dancing blade, and certain jabs didn't give you much room to SDI). If you make the "suck in" too strong, then people won't have a chance to counter it with SDI. Especially since multi hits in Melee aren't nearly as easy to get out of compared to a G^W Bair in Brawl or something similar.

As it is now, it's really easy to SDI out of her u-air on the first hit. Finding the right balance between utility and fairness would be trial and error, but I honestly think giving u-air a slight vacuum effect similar to its Brawl counterpart is the way to go. It would make it so much easier to use in combos.

 

[bubbaking]

Make her upB suck in opponents better instead.

 

[cmart]

@ DMG - Ice smash missiles accelerate faster, have a lower top speed, expire quicker, do less dmg/kb, and have more stun.

 

[DMG]

Cool. I wasn't too sure about stun, because you would figure the stronger missile would stun more as well, but that is neat.

To other people griping about Ice stuff: her Ice form is nearly on par with her Fire form IMO. Ice Fsmash kind of stinks, but when the trade off is the new Usmash and Fair, it's pretty fair imo.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Ice is just totally useless. In my opinion, the ice moveset should have considerably larger knockback on most of the attacks with lower damage and combo ability (would be interesting if charge beam was included), the fire should be better for comboing and racking up percents. Although she wasnt super tier in melee, she was relatively solid. She just needed a few tweaks, but some of the poor implements in her design are making her much more difficult to deal with.
As for the people bashing bubbaking, you havent dealt with him in tournament. I was at a tournament with him earlier this month (although we didnt exactly make friends), and although I did place higher than him, he is an extremely talented samus player with good tech skill and solid mind gaming. He definitely knows what he's talking about here.

 

[0RLY]

The animation itself wouldn't make any sense. I don't know anyone who kicks with their toes facing outward. That's a surefire way to break your ankle, depending on the angle of impact. Powered suit of armor or not, the heel of the foot is where most of the energy would be dispersed on impact. It makes sense for her foot to be angled.

When you do a sweep like Samus does with her dsmash, kicking with your heel can ruin your achilles tendon depending on the point of impact so I think the argument could go either way. That being said, do you not want more range? I would much rather have melee dsmash than brawl.

 

[Serris]

When you do a sweep like Samus does with her dsmash, kicking with your heel can ruin your achilles tendon depending on the point of impact so I think the argument could go either way. That being said, do you not want more range? I would much rather have melee dsmash than brawl.

You know, the entire time, I thought you were talking about her n-air. +1 to reading comprehension.

Ice is just totally useless. In my opinion, the ice moveset should have considerably larger knockback on most of the attacks with lower damage and combo ability (would be interesting if charge beam was included), the fire should be better for comboing and racking up percents. Although she wasnt super tier in melee, she was relatively solid. She just needed a few tweaks, but some of the poor implements in her design are making her much more difficult to deal with.

I agree that there are some aspects of Samus's design that could use improvement, especially in regards to her ice beam stance. That said, I don't think she needs changes as extreme as you're suggesting. All she really needs is a priority buff on both versions of her u-smash, and for ice beam's f-smash to be turned into a combo starter.