Potential Gripes with Samus (Feedback)

[bubbaking]

So I really don't spend much time on SWF anymore. Kind of a waste of time and FB is more useful as a forum these days... I originally posted this on there and a lot of it has actually already been addressed, but a PMBR member asked me to re-post it here to keep everything together and consolidated, so here it is. Let me know if this is not the right place for this kind of thing.

As far as I know, I'm the best Melee Samus player in MD/VA and one of the best in NY, so I'd like to think I know a thing or two about Samus. I had a lot of hopes and dreams for P:M's newest female addition. Needless to say, a lot of those dreams were actually fulfilled in 3.0, but.....there are still a couple of things missing... Enjoy!

At first, Samus felt really good and fun to play (and she still does, to an extent), but after playing with her for almost a week now, I've noticed a couple problems that are extremely irritating:

• Samus' tether inexplicably fails at distances well within her range for absolutely no reason at all. The tether looks like it snaps for an instant, but then it undoes itself and Samus just free-falls to her death.
• What the heck is ice fsmash supposed to do? It can't even kill light characters at 150%. Please don't tell me that little two-hit gimmick is supposed to be safe on shields, because if I was worried about safety, I wouldn't be using fsmash on someone's shield in the first place.
• UpB never seems to suck the opponent into it like it's supposed to. I almost always get the first initial hit (which is very punishable if that's all you hit with) and then the rest of the move proceeds to whiff unless the opponent was above me to begin with.
• For some reason I can't fully identify, platform maneuvers are incredibly difficult with P:M Samus. Double plat missiles are very awkward, and more often than not, she just ends up being unable to drop through for the second missile. There's something hindering her from dropping through the platform as fast as possible. I can't tell if this is caused by the fact that P:M is slightly slower than Melee or by something innately caused by plat mechanics, but whatever it is, it feels like she's 'stuck' on the platform after a missile cancel. Double plat missiles are a maneuver that I very rarely fail in Melee, so this just ends up being extremely frustrating in the long run.
• Personally, I dislike this grab range nerf she received along with its speed buff, but that's actually more the gripes of a man who is too used to playing with Samus in Melee and being able to catch people from a mile away.
• Can beam swapping please be just a LITTLE faster? As it is now, there's no way anyone could actually incorporate it into real combos. I can't even go to one mode ahead of time to generally account for a state of being within the matchup (e.g. I can't just stay fire to kill with fsmash because ice usmash is also good for killing and ice fair is good for gimping), but I can't switch fast enough to account for a certain position right when I'm put into said position. In all honesty, fire is just overall better because it's better for damage-racking and for killing with 'relevant' moves (fsmash and super missile), so I end up just staying in fire phase the whole match.

Everything else feels really great. I like the direction with which you have taken this character. The crawl and the crawl attack alone are incredible buffs. I actually can't believe how fun it is to play Samus in P:M. It's like a nice breath of fresh air has revitalized my character, but you haven't actually changed her at her core, which is a huge relief.

 

[MVP]

agreed my friend

 

[Vashimus]

I was afraid I wouldn't get to hear your impressions. Glad someone else agrees that Ice Forward-Smash is practically useless. Ice in general just isn't that worth it to me, as Fire gets the job done just as easily. I stay fire the whole round too; my D-Tilt and Forward Smash are too important, and Up Smash and Fair are much better moves now. I'd rather be firing missiles or charging my beam than swapping to Ice.

Screw Attack didn't suck opponents in Melee, in 64 and Brawl it did. Unless you're talking about something else, then I don't know what you mean.

Dropping from platforms does feel pretty awkward in P:M, which is why sometimes I just run off and missile so I don't get stuck.

 

[bubbaking]

Exactly. Fire is always useful throughout the entire match.

Believe me. Screw Attack sucks you up in Melee, probably even better than it does in 64. That's part of why it's, hands-down, the best OoS option in the game, maybe second-best after shine OoS.

Running off is a workable way of temporarily dealing with the problem by avoiding it, but it's longer than just dropping through, and it isn't as usable in some scenarios.

 

[Sarix]

I feel your pain on the BS with her grapple beam not working because it's not in the mood. I've fired it at distances similar to Link and it just goes "NOPE!". Yeah Fsmash is just plain awkward to use, it seems it was designed as a combo tool/starter but the 2nd hit only lands like 50% of the time and the followups are limited if any at all. I also have gripes with Dtilt too since I've only found it useful for spacing and shield pressure. It leads into nothing just comes across as gimmicky.


Beam swapping should be faster because Samus is essentially now a stance mode zoning character even if it wasn't the PMBR's intention. A lot of her options in one mode would be able to easily set up a followup for a normal in the opposite mode but because we have to wait like 1-2 seconds for the mode change it's rendered moot.

Platform double missiles are very awkward too which is weird since Samus is a character who LOVES her platforms.

 

[Serris]

Totally agreed on the ice beam f-smash. I can't find a use for it. The power beam stance is useful throughout the match, whereas ice beam only really comes into play when you need an air finisher. Maybe the f-smash should cause a momentary freeze on hit like the Ice Climbers' specials do at high percents? That might make it work better for combo set-ups.

My biggest beef with Samus is the inconsistent grapple beam tether recovery. That needs to be fixed. If it can't be fixed, then make it so she doesn't go helpless after grappling.

 

[JerkPhil]

The only reasons to use ice beam in my opinion:
Ice Fair is useful in edge guards and a follow up to Dthrow. Pretty much like Sheik's Fair.
Ice Usmash is a great finisher against floaties. We can use it as a tech chase when our opponent is on a platform above us.
Ice homing missiles are good for edge guarding. They are faster with better knock back and doesn't detonate after a distance.

I will start swapping beams to ice when my floaty opponent is at higher percents, or when I've got time before edge guarding: running off a stage with taunt and shoot a homing missile on the way down.

 

[bubbaking]

Ice missiles don't have better KB than fire missiles. Fire super missiles actually kill.

 

[JerkPhil]

I'm talking about ice homing missiles. Don't they have better knockback/hitstun?

 

[MVP]

I'm talking about ice homing missiles. Don't they have better knockback/hitstun?

yes, ice homing missiles have everything better than fire missiles.

 

[Kati]

I have yet to have a grapple fail me if I am positioned below the stage. I never do it now if it I am level with or above the ledge though as I do find that it fails there.

edit

I should also mention that I always airdodge and then grapple as soon as possible. Obviously I might be wrong, but I can't remember being upset at the grapple beam yet since 3.0 came out.

 

[Serris]

Ice Usmash is a great finisher against floaties, and comboes from Dthrow. We can use it as a tech chase when our opponent is on a platform above us.

This needs to be nipped in the bud before more people accept it as common knowledge. Ice beam up-smash is not a guaranteed follow up to down-throw because it has too many start-up frames and DI completely throws it off. It can be readily stuffed by any character with a fast down-aerial. Power beam up-smash is fast enough to be a guaranteed combo at lower percents regardless of DI, and it hits behind Samus, so it's a far better option in comparison. The only thing the ice beam is good for is finishing off your opponent when they're airborne.

 

[JerkPhil]

Thank you Serris! I thought it was, cause others had written it, and I've seen Samuses using it in matches. I hadn't looked in to it enough myself. Sorry.

Fixed my first post

 

[Jagoffian]

Is it just me or is it harder to edge-cancel her Up-B? It seems like there's less horizontal mobility during special fall than there was in melee.

Also echoing the frustrations with her tether.

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, I felt that too. All in all, Samus' upB simply doesn't work the way it's supposed to at all. I know she has a better roll to compensate, but that roll still strikes me as slower than average for some reason, and upB OoS is simply better than any roll, IMO. I usually WD OoS anyway.

 

[Scidadle]

I was talking to plup about PM samus and he feels like she doesn't have enough priority compared to the rest of the cast, which I kind of agree with. It seems like some of my well spaces tilts just get beat because they have low priority. Another thing would be how fair doesn't have the knockup on the first hit like it did in melee. Ice beam is overall worse, I agree. However I do like the change to her grab

 

[GigasOverlord]

Personally, I feel that right now we either aren't exploring the potential of Ice Beam regulars, or that they actually are just garbage. I know that if the change was sped up more, I'd use it more. As it stands, Plasma is just more useful now that U-Smash and F-Air link properly.

 

[bubbaking]

Overall, I guess her grab is better as a shorter-ranged, fast grab as opposed to a longer yet slower grab. Still, I think the happy middle ground would have been something like ZSS' grab. Fast to come out, great range, catches spot-dodges and rolls, but laggy to offset all those good traits.

I think fair got that change so it could combo better? *shrug*

Edit: As it stands now, P:M Samus' standing grab has about the same range as Melee Samus' dash grab, which.....is a weensy bit pitiful...

 

[RaynEX]

This needs to be nipped in the bud before more people accept it as common knowledge. Ice beam up-smash is not a guaranteed follow up to down-throw because it has too many start-up frames and DI completely throws it off. It can be readily stuffed by any character with a fast down-aerial. Power beam up-smash is fast enough to be a guaranteed combo at lower percents regardless of DI, and it hits behind Samus, so it's a far better option in comparison. The only thing the ice beam is good for is finishing off your opponent when they're airborne.

If you dthrow certain opponents at mid to high percents and they d.i. inwards / don't d.i., you can run and JC usmash and it will combo. Sometimes even just standing there and doing it works too. You're seriously misinformed. There is more than enough hitstun off a dthrow at high percents to make up for ice usmash's start-up.

 

[Serris]

If you dthrow certain opponents at mid to high percents and they d.i. inwards / don't d.i., you can run and JC usmash and it will combo. Sometimes even just standing there and doing it works too. You're seriously misinformed. There is more than enough hitstun off a dthrow at high percents to make up for ice usmash's start-up.

Marth, Roy, and Falco can stuff ice beam u-smash after d-throw by using their d-air. I've had it happen to me several times. It isn't safe at low or mid percents.

 

[RaynEX]

Marth, Roy, and Falco can stuff ice beam u-smash after d-throw by using their d-air. I've had it happen to me several times. It isn't safe at low or mid percents.

Notice how I specifically only referred to dthrow at *high percents*. Give me the courtesy of at least reading my post properly. Yes, Samus can't throw combo at low or mid %s, that's nothing new. A negligible amount of hitstun is applied at low % after Samus dthrow (or any move for that matter, basic smash theory), so obviously you'll get hit out of it. This changes significantly at 80%+ on the right character. Or against a mid-weight / floaty at 60ish.

I never once claimed it was safe at low to mid percents. You're refuting a point that doesn't even exist.

 

[bubbaking]

Wait a second! Doesn't dthrow still force tech-chases on FFers, like Falco, at low-mid %'s? Needless to say, uthrow always combos into stuff on them.....or at least it should.

 

[Vashimus]

For fast fallers, up-throw leads to combos or Charge Beam kill, d-throw is for the chase, yeah.

Can anyone test if Down-Throw > up-angle Forward Smash is legit? I've been using it a lot but it's kind hard to know if CPUs are even bothering to DI or jump out of it.

Believe me. Screw Attack sucks you up in Melee, probably even better than it does in 64. That's part of why it's, hands-down, the best OoS option in the game, maybe second-best after shine OoS.

That title definitely belongs to Bowser's Whirling Fortress, as it's much safer and launches on hit, on top of the quick startup and invincibility.

 

[JerkPhil]

I always throw fastfallers up. As Vashimus said, we can hit them directly after our Uthrow. If they land on a platform we can tech chase with Dair or charge shot.
I did Uthrow to a platform --> tech chase Dair --> charge shot the other day in a match. So beautiful!

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, uthrow on FFers is standard. Not sure where all this dthrow talk started up...

Dthrow > fsmash is legit for certain DIs on mid-weight, normal-falling chars, like Sheik. The fsmash doesn't need to be uangled, either.

Samus' upB starts up on the same frame as Bowser's upB and has a frame more of invincibility, achieving perfect overlap (something that Bowser's upB doesn't do). Also leads to plat tech-chases on FFers. I understand the reasoning for Bowser's upB being better, but I still think Samus' upB is better with the reasoning that Bowser's upB is just a chunk of damage and that's usually it, unless you can ledge-cancel it. Samus' upB can equate to a kill in many situations. Also, unless there is a ledge nearby, Bowser's upB OoS isn't safe (even on-hit at low %'s), whereas Samus' upB is generally safer, since there are usually plats around to edge-cancel on, she has the additional mix-up of dropping through the plat, she can still FF and grab the ledge if she's close to it (or just edge-cancel off the ledge), and the move's almost always non-punishable on-hit.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a discussion of who has the best upB. I want to talk about what doesn't feel right with P:M Samus.

 

[JerkPhil]

I like the crawl, but not the crawl attack. I've missed several edge guards doing crawl attack instead of an intended downFtilt.

 

[bubbaking]

That's really just execution error, which is on you unfortunately. I absolutely love the new crawl attack. It has almost no startup or cooldown; it brings Samus' close-range mix-ups to a whole new level. For example, you can perform a super MC and then run along your missile. As the opponent shields the missile (or clanks with it or whatever), crawl attack to cross him up and attack or grab from behind. I've already done a bunch of maneuvers like this. That crawl attack REALLY helps Samus a bunch. It's probably my favorite change that the PMBR put in, and it's probably also the most useful buff she received (either that or the way zair works on-stage now).

 

[cmart]

On the tether failing - this is a brawl glitch that has been around forever, and while completely reproducible is still mystifyingly inexplicable. Pretty much, if you tether while above the ledge line on certain frames, it will always fail. These frames are different for each stage. If we figure out how to fix it we will, but in the meantime I would recommend always tethering from below the ledge line - you can airdodge down to tether if you need to tether and are above the line.

 

[Deleted member]

Totally agreed on the ice beam f-smash. I can't find a use for it.

why does every move need a use? why can't a weaker fsmash be a trade-off for using that beam?

i think some of the complaints here are good validation to the PMBR to not change them.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah, Ice Fsmash and Missiles were intended to be the trade-off for how Fair/Usmash are better and Dtilt situationally better than the Fire counterparts.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm telling you, the ice fair and usmash are not so good that they warrant switching to ice phase, let along sticking in it for long periods of time. You guys seem to have buffed the fire fair and usmash (which is absolutely splendid), so I'll just use those moves. They rack up damage better, they combo better, and fire usmash seems to actually kill so it's not even really a drawback. The ice usmash and ice fair are strong, sure, but they're also laggy, so I'm actually hesitant to use them because of the risk of a whiff or block. Fire super missiles have more destructive power, fire fsmash is an actual threat to my opponents, and fire dtilt sets up great combos.

On top of that, fire fair is only -1 on block (if the move's stats were ported over directly from Melee), so it seamlessly and non-punishably transitions over to an upB (on top of many other options) if Samus so chooses. Fire usmash may not exactly be 'safe' but it actually feels a lot safer than ice, especially with the buff it got in P:M. Even in Melee, I could catch certain approaches with that usmash. If the opponent is behind Samus, the move is much safer than ice usmash, and if the opponent is in front, it is about as unsafe as ice on whiff or block. If they hit, fire stuff also combo and rack up damage better too.

The biggest reason I avoid switching to ice most of the time is the very real possibility that I take the ledge (voluntarily or forced). If I'm ever knocked onto the ledge after switching to ice, I begin ruing the moment I even thought of switching because fire fair from the ledge is incredible and ice fair from the ledge is too laggy (and is a single hit) to be nearly as useful. Just thinking about being stuck on the ledge with only ice is enough to make me decide against switching. Fire super missiles from the edge are also a powerful ledge option. Ice.....not so much. Basically, if I'm ice and on the ledge, that's an open cue to the opponent to begin disrespecting my best options because they all suck.

In a nutshell, fire can pressure, rack damage, AND kill, and it's got me covered when it comes to getting off the ledge, so why even bother switching? The only conceivable time I can come up with to switch to ice is the situation where the opponent is knocked really far offstage and I can harry him with those super-duper ice guided missiles. That's it.

Also, that ice dtilt is only better than fire in very specific situations (which I have yet to fully figure out, as a matter of fact). It doesn't really seem to combo as well unless the opponent is at high %'s (seems to have less KBG than fire), and I thought it would be a decent gimping tool at the ledge, but it really isn't, and even if it was, it would be redundant with utilt which sends at a better angle and is more powerful.

why does every move need a use? why can't a weaker fsmash be a trade-off for using that beam?

i think some of the complaints here are good validation to the PMBR to not change them.

I'm going to ask you just one question: Why was Ganon's utilt changed to what it is now? That is all.

Edit: I just want to clarify one thing. I won't mind one bit if ice is left the same or even made worse for some reason. Thankfully, you guys made this phase toggle-able, so it doesn't have to affect me at all. I'm just making my feedback points because these ice moves seem like they don't really add much to Samus. Changes that do nothing, if you will.

 

[Deleted member]

i was on a stream 2 nights ago bashing how forced ganon's uptilt feels.

 

[Serris]

I don't mind ice beam and power beam having trade-offs to make one stance situationally better than the other. The problem is that ice beam just doesn't have enough pros to warrant switching to it in most cases. Maybe ice beam f-smash should be turned into a combo starter somehow?

 

[Kati]

Perhaps ice beam will be mu specific..? as long as it can provide an edge against one other character, I'll be satisfied.

I just wanted to confirm that platform dropping with Samus is weird. I went to a smashfest last night and compared with melee. I wouldn't be surprised though if this is just one of those bugs that was preventing Samus from being released for so long. Could it possibly relate to Samus' resize and landing detection? (obviously it relates to the latter, I'm asking about two as a group).

And yeah, for 7 hours last night, I still never had the grapple fail me, so perhaps Cmart's concise description could be pasted into a "stickied" topic..? This board is small now, but I'm just thinking about new Samus players logging on in the future.

Great thread overall.

 

[Vanguard]

As far as I know, I'm the best Melee Samus player in MD/VA

Here's my only take away. Get yourself back in MD/VA so I can expose you. Vanmus Aran is the truth.

On topic though, we've already chatted some about your notes, and I've read the thread. Nothing too much to add.
Strong Bad simplifies the beam trade-offs a little bit.
Ice Fsmash does have some utility to it that might merit it's usage. It readily beats spot dodges because of the longer active frames from the 2nd hit. Then again, the reward itself still may be at issue.
But yea, her normal kit has some faily niche/nuanced move usages, so that theme follows through to Ice stance.

 

[ph00tbag]

Samus' upB starts up on the same frame as Bowser's upB and has a frame more of invincibility, achieving perfect overlap (something that Bowser's upB doesn't do). Also leads to plat tech-chases on FFers. I understand the reasoning for Bowser's upB being better, but I still think Samus' upB is better with the reasoning that Bowser's upB is just a chunk of damage and that's usually it, unless you can ledge-cancel it. Samus' upB can equate to a kill in many situations. Also, unless there is a ledge nearby, Bowser's upB OoS isn't safe (even on-hit at low %'s), whereas Samus' upB is generally safer, since there are usually plats around to edge-cancel on, she has the additional mix-up of dropping through the plat, she can still FF and grab the ledge if she's close to it (or just edge-cancel off the ledge), and the move's almost always non-punishable on-hit.

Whirling Fortress is safe because you can move away, and on most stages, can go to the ledge, which is Bowser's home. So if your opponent blocks it, or is at too low a percent, you can just hit and run. It leads to tech chases at medium percent, and KOs floaties at high percents.

Screw Attack is only safe if you have a platform for landing mix-ups and even then the landing can be read. Many characters can even punish on hit, even if you drift away from their DI. It does less damage, and never KOs unless Jigglypuff SDIs out of the second hitbox.

I'm just not sure how anyone can believe there's argument here.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

why are you griping so much? this game just came out. it isn't even complete. just because you've gotten better doesn't mean you should forsake humility. my rebuttals below.


-what do you want to do about her tether? (i'm guessing) it's brawl's fault, i'm sure the pm team is aware of it and they'll get to it. i just work with it and don't get gimped that much.

-not sure what the complaint about the ice fsmash is. is the double attack on the shield useless? maybe. is trading samus' fsmash for a better fair and upsmash worth it? if you can show that samus wouldn't be 'too good' with a better ice fsmash then you may have a point, otherwise flame attacks are better for combos and finishing, while ice upsmash allows for a different combo/knockback and ice fair allows for better range/space control, delivering relatively high knockback as well.

-i've noticed i use the up+b less, as it acts differently, but i don't see a specific problem with using it unless my up+b positioning was off in the first place, or i'm up+b-ing someone's shield.

-there seems to be a general problem with dropping from platforms in project m. it may also be because of some slowness of brawl ("or something"). not specifically samus-related.

-grab range got nerfed, but you acknowledge her grab is also faster now. this isn't a valid complaint.
-just about the only thing i can agree with you on is that if the idea is that samus will be able to change her beam to continue a combo, then the change could happen a bit faster. otherwise, i see no real problem with the beam swap, i either get to swap beams or charge my shot when i choose to do so. that said, it does seem like the ending animation could cut off a couple frames sooner, I think..
i use ice in the low to mid-range of percent, and typically switch to flame to ko, unless i need the range or i'm fine with an ice fair knockback. i've had samus in ice mode more than half the time, i have yet to find any glaring fault with it.

 

[Vashimus]

why are you griping so much? this game just came out. it isn't even complete. just because you've gotten better doesn't mean you should forsake humility.

It's called giving feedback. The thing that's gotten Project M this far in the first place. If you think people are just gonna shut up because the PMBR makes perfect decisions all the time and they should never be questioned, you got another thing coming.

Why don't you tell all those Kirby players, who don't have their Copy Abilities working properly, to stop complaining because the game just came out?

 

[Kati]

why are you griping so much? this game just came out. it isn't even complete. just because you've gotten better doesn't mean you should forsake humility. my rebuttals below.

Bubba's comments not only might shed light on details the pmbr missed, but also highlight elements that less experienced players wouldn't have picked up on. I had a slight suspicion that dropping through platforms was messed up, but Bubba clarified that for me, which is nice as I don't own melee and seldom get a chance to access.

 

[DerfMidWest]

ok I'll address a couple of things:

beam switching is easy, you just need to taunt cancel. I don't see you being able to start a combo with one beam and then switch to the other mid combo very easily, I usually just do it when I get the chance.

PB is awesome, but I find myself sticking to IC way more not that I'm used to it.
PB definitely combos better, but I'm cool with just fairing stuff tbh.
Ice missiles will not kill, but they move faster and Ice homing missiles are incredible.
Ice fsmash is terrible. But fair is soooo good.
I also prefer Ice UpB.

Oh and Ice usmash is godlike, albeit slow.

her grab caught me offguard at first too, it's weird. I'd prefer the melee range.
I also reeeeally miss my extender.

The platform missiles still work for me, but they do feel different, which annoys the piss out of me sometimes.

The failed ledge grab thing makes me wanna punch something sometimes, but half the time it happens because you've already used it 3 times before returning to the stage. I guess that's a brawl mechanic.
It does happen other times too though, which is very annoying.
Other than that, ledge grapple is superior to UpB for recovering in every way.

and yeah… Ice fsmash just flat out sucks. I hate that move.

also does anyone else feel like dsmash is way weaker and less useful now?

other than that I really enjoy P:M samus.