TKD
Smash Lord
This thread is for you to read information and tips about IC vs MK, I'm not asking for advice. Of course, if you have a question or something to add, I can edit this post anytime.
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IMPORTANT:
Every good IC player knows trying to grab is pointless against other good players, so I won't get into that. Grab attempts are only for when your opponent makes a spacing mistake too close to you. That's it. The rest of the time you space squall hammers, blizzards, upair/nairs and jabs/tilts. Upsmash from chaincatches for the KOs, sometimes fsmash. Also, each Ice Climber degrades his/her own moves. Popo degrades his own smashes, throws, B moves etc by landing them, and Nana degrades her own. They're separate.
All of this is basic stuff and I'm going to focus on the details.
***********************
Haye guys, this is TKD's report on how to manage fighting Metaknight.
Hope this helps IC mains, since their only bad matchups are MK and Snake (30/70), Peach, Marth and R.O.B. (40/60).
This is some research I made today. Metaknight is our worst matchup, because of his range, priority, great nana-gimping ability and because of being the most difficult character to forward chainthrow, harder than Lucas (OMFG)!
So it's the only character you may not KO with only one chaincatch, besides characters that recover with chains/strings (which doesn't matter because they're not as broken).
Lucky for the Brawl cast, Metaknight doesn't have any projectile moves (not that he needs them, of course), or Ike's godly sword range, so desynched blizzards limit MK's options if you manage to pull some desynchings off.
Just for us to know, I tested and proved that Metaknight is safe to be KOed by your main climber's upsmash at 113%, at least in every neutral stage's main platform.
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KO percentages on MK from a main Ice Climber's upsmash.
________________________________________________________
Your assistant's upsmash is weaker than yours! Please remember that. It takes 11% more damage to KO with your assistant's upsmash, and that's a lot, really. Your assistant's KO percentage is 125% on Battlefield, while yours is 113%.
If your opponent does not smash DI they get KOed at 1-2% less damage than a perfect DI, if they DI sideways instead of diagonally (down + left/right), they get KOed at another 1% less damage.
Your opponent CAN get KOed sooner even with perfect DI if it just so happens that you hit them near the edge, because of dying sideways instead of upwards. I don't recommend to expect this to happen though, since it's occasional.
Note: The Ice Climber's Upsmash has no sweetspot, every part of its hitbox has the same knockback.
Stage KO percentage by a fresh upsmash
------------------------------------------------------
Battlefield Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform 113% / 101%
From a lateral platform 103% / 91%
From the top platform 93% / 82%
*Landing an upsmash from the top platform is extremely occasional.
------------------------------------------------------
Final Destination Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform 112% / 101%
*OMG! 1% lower than Battlefield!! Time to stop picking BF for its "low ceiling", since getting edgeguarded is worse than a "low ceiling" that's actually very high.
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Smashville Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform 112% / 101%
From the top platform 100% / 90%
*Your upsmash can't reach the top platform from below, so it doesn't matter much.
------------------------------------------------------
Yoshi's Story Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform (middle) 113% / 102%
From the main platform (sides) 112% / 101%
From the main platform (left edge) 114% / 103%
From the main platform (right edge) 113% / 102%
From the top platform 111% / 90%
*Aim for 113% to be sure, this stage may surprise you.
------------------------------------------------------
Lylat Cruise Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform 111-113% /100-102%
From a lateral platform 103-108% / 92-97%
From the top platform 111% / 90%
Well, that's all of the standard stages. All of the neutrals have the same height for a stageroof KO. I recommend knowing that 113% damage on MK means he can't survive, no matter how well he DIs the hit. 112% is good too, but miracles can happen in BF, YS and LC.
So aim for just a bit over 110% to upsmash from your chaincatches (or desynched blizzards or whatever) and you'll do fine.
KOing requires the same percentage for a solo upsmash as it does when both climbers hit, because when your assistant also hits, your opponent gets sent by his/her weaker knockback, not yours.
--------------------
CHAINCATCHING MK
____________________
The best chaincatch I've found effective against MK is this one:
1) Downthrow
2) Assistant's backthrow
3) repeat until a bit over 100%
4) finish off with your main climber's upsmash
If you're near the edge:
1) Downthrow
2) Assistant's fthrow
3) Dashgrab
4) Assistant's spike
You can delay this chaincatch by doing some back-and-forth's if your opponent does not have enough damage to get KOed from the spike.
When you downthrow, for your assistant to catch, make him/her move slightly forward before regrabbing, then keep doing the chain. If your assistant gets close to you (like, way too close) because of your slow chaincatching, make her move slightly forward next time he/she regrabs. This is to keep them separated since you can never be both at the same spot or you won't be able to regrab when he/she backthrows.
THE HARDEST PART OF THE BACK-AND-FORTH CHAINCATCH IS AVOIDING ACCIDENTAL DASHING!! So you have to practice (you can either learn it, or avoid playing IC against MK). It's the hardest chaincatch I use only against Metaknight, since he's so hard to forward chainthrow, and characters with chain/rope recoveries since they survive the spike.
--------------------
B MOVES FOR THE WIN
____________________
And finally, some tips.
Quick way to desynch:
Quickly tap back and forth 5 times to dashdance and at the 5th tap, fsmash with the C-stick. You can do a longer dashdance, but why would you? It requires a minimum of five dashes. Less dashes will result in your fsmash + your assistant's dash attack (that = a waste of time).
Input:
back, forth, back, forth, back + cstick
or,
forth, back, forth, back, forth + cstick
It takes a second and a half to desynch, so it's worth it. The most useful way to make use of desynching is to shorthop blizzards with one climber at a time. It's very hard to punish, and very useful against characters that have no proyectiles (but PLEASE, watch out for Ike's gigantic log of a sword).
Desynch while you're away from your opponent, you're vulnerable until you start blizzarding, and besides, you may trip while dashing.
-------------------------
THANKS FOR READING!!!
_________________________
See ya guys, happy Iceing!
EDIT: A full dthrow chain is possible against MK. Your main dashgrabs, the other walkgrabs, spike at the edge. If MK is below 40%, back and forth chaingrab auntil you reach 40%+ and fthrow + spike.
_______________________
IMPORTANT:
Every good IC player knows trying to grab is pointless against other good players, so I won't get into that. Grab attempts are only for when your opponent makes a spacing mistake too close to you. That's it. The rest of the time you space squall hammers, blizzards, upair/nairs and jabs/tilts. Upsmash from chaincatches for the KOs, sometimes fsmash. Also, each Ice Climber degrades his/her own moves. Popo degrades his own smashes, throws, B moves etc by landing them, and Nana degrades her own. They're separate.
All of this is basic stuff and I'm going to focus on the details.
***********************
Haye guys, this is TKD's report on how to manage fighting Metaknight.
Hope this helps IC mains, since their only bad matchups are MK and Snake (30/70), Peach, Marth and R.O.B. (40/60).
This is some research I made today. Metaknight is our worst matchup, because of his range, priority, great nana-gimping ability and because of being the most difficult character to forward chainthrow, harder than Lucas (OMFG)!
So it's the only character you may not KO with only one chaincatch, besides characters that recover with chains/strings (which doesn't matter because they're not as broken).
Lucky for the Brawl cast, Metaknight doesn't have any projectile moves (not that he needs them, of course), or Ike's godly sword range, so desynched blizzards limit MK's options if you manage to pull some desynchings off.
Just for us to know, I tested and proved that Metaknight is safe to be KOed by your main climber's upsmash at 113%, at least in every neutral stage's main platform.
--------------------------------------------------------
KO percentages on MK from a main Ice Climber's upsmash.
________________________________________________________
Your assistant's upsmash is weaker than yours! Please remember that. It takes 11% more damage to KO with your assistant's upsmash, and that's a lot, really. Your assistant's KO percentage is 125% on Battlefield, while yours is 113%.
If your opponent does not smash DI they get KOed at 1-2% less damage than a perfect DI, if they DI sideways instead of diagonally (down + left/right), they get KOed at another 1% less damage.
Your opponent CAN get KOed sooner even with perfect DI if it just so happens that you hit them near the edge, because of dying sideways instead of upwards. I don't recommend to expect this to happen though, since it's occasional.
Note: The Ice Climber's Upsmash has no sweetspot, every part of its hitbox has the same knockback.
Stage KO percentage by a fresh upsmash
------------------------------------------------------
Battlefield Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform 113% / 101%
From a lateral platform 103% / 91%
From the top platform 93% / 82%
*Landing an upsmash from the top platform is extremely occasional.
------------------------------------------------------
Final Destination Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform 112% / 101%
*OMG! 1% lower than Battlefield!! Time to stop picking BF for its "low ceiling", since getting edgeguarded is worse than a "low ceiling" that's actually very high.
------------------------------------------------------
Smashville Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform 112% / 101%
From the top platform 100% / 90%
*Your upsmash can't reach the top platform from below, so it doesn't matter much.
------------------------------------------------------
Yoshi's Story Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform (middle) 113% / 102%
From the main platform (sides) 112% / 101%
From the main platform (left edge) 114% / 103%
From the main platform (right edge) 113% / 102%
From the top platform 111% / 90%
*Aim for 113% to be sure, this stage may surprise you.
------------------------------------------------------
Lylat Cruise Perfect DI / No DI
______________________________________________________
From the main platform 111-113% /100-102%
From a lateral platform 103-108% / 92-97%
From the top platform 111% / 90%
Well, that's all of the standard stages. All of the neutrals have the same height for a stageroof KO. I recommend knowing that 113% damage on MK means he can't survive, no matter how well he DIs the hit. 112% is good too, but miracles can happen in BF, YS and LC.
So aim for just a bit over 110% to upsmash from your chaincatches (or desynched blizzards or whatever) and you'll do fine.
KOing requires the same percentage for a solo upsmash as it does when both climbers hit, because when your assistant also hits, your opponent gets sent by his/her weaker knockback, not yours.
--------------------
CHAINCATCHING MK
____________________
The best chaincatch I've found effective against MK is this one:
1) Downthrow
2) Assistant's backthrow
3) repeat until a bit over 100%
4) finish off with your main climber's upsmash
If you're near the edge:
1) Downthrow
2) Assistant's fthrow
3) Dashgrab
4) Assistant's spike
You can delay this chaincatch by doing some back-and-forth's if your opponent does not have enough damage to get KOed from the spike.
When you downthrow, for your assistant to catch, make him/her move slightly forward before regrabbing, then keep doing the chain. If your assistant gets close to you (like, way too close) because of your slow chaincatching, make her move slightly forward next time he/she regrabs. This is to keep them separated since you can never be both at the same spot or you won't be able to regrab when he/she backthrows.
THE HARDEST PART OF THE BACK-AND-FORTH CHAINCATCH IS AVOIDING ACCIDENTAL DASHING!! So you have to practice (you can either learn it, or avoid playing IC against MK). It's the hardest chaincatch I use only against Metaknight, since he's so hard to forward chainthrow, and characters with chain/rope recoveries since they survive the spike.
--------------------
B MOVES FOR THE WIN
____________________
And finally, some tips.
Quick way to desynch:
Quickly tap back and forth 5 times to dashdance and at the 5th tap, fsmash with the C-stick. You can do a longer dashdance, but why would you? It requires a minimum of five dashes. Less dashes will result in your fsmash + your assistant's dash attack (that = a waste of time).
Input:
back, forth, back, forth, back + cstick
or,
forth, back, forth, back, forth + cstick
It takes a second and a half to desynch, so it's worth it. The most useful way to make use of desynching is to shorthop blizzards with one climber at a time. It's very hard to punish, and very useful against characters that have no proyectiles (but PLEASE, watch out for Ike's gigantic log of a sword).
Desynch while you're away from your opponent, you're vulnerable until you start blizzarding, and besides, you may trip while dashing.
-------------------------
THANKS FOR READING!!!
_________________________
See ya guys, happy Iceing!
EDIT: A full dthrow chain is possible against MK. Your main dashgrabs, the other walkgrabs, spike at the edge. If MK is below 40%, back and forth chaingrab auntil you reach 40%+ and fthrow + spike.
) but i can play someone whos just picking up the game for the first time using Mk and they can give me a tough matchup (not beat me, but get close). compare that to someone picking up snake for the first time and there is a much steeper learning curve for the snake.