Possible recovery option

[Blacknight99923]

So while I'm in the process of picking up snake (as he's a bad ***) I thought of something I think could be potentially really useful. I was thinking about how snakes fire a nikita during a duelist game. I realized that it could potentially be a viable recovery option in an actual match.

For those of you who are not familiar with what I am referring to please watch this duelist match.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLdMsH1ZKR8

In the course of the match Suinoko explains something called the Dol Nikita.

To perform a Dol a nikita you

1. while falling in the air (such as offstage) you soft lob a grenade
2. You cipher up toward the grenade for a little bit
3. You nikita out of the cipher and aim it (wherever you want)
4. The grenade blows you up, causing two different effects to happen.

The first is that the nikita is now in a straight trajectory
The Second is that you are now recoverying upwards LOL


PLEASE FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF WITH THE TECHNIQUE BEFORE FURTHER READING
How is this useful?

In duelist this is an AT used to hit other players in an attempt to mess up their timing and kill them or limit their recovery options. However in standard play it has yet to be fully implemented. However I believe this could give snake another option of recovery particularly when he is forced to recover low.

Usually when you recover low you are forced to C4, which is often footstool'd, spiked, or otherwise gimped, or your just flat out gimped before you can even C4 (in my experience)

However with the Dol nikita we gain another option. By being able to fire the nikita we can limit our opponents options to gimp us and recover. The benefits being.

1.The nikita prevents our opponent from being in its trajectory

2.To hit snake while he's performing this your opponent (most likely metaknight) puts himself at risk by either detonating the grenade or getting hit by the nikita

3. The grenade does less damage than a C4 recovery and less knockback making it less likely to kill you/ you missing a tech and less damage is also a good thing.




Most of my opinions on this are theory craft, however I do hope snakes can gain a viable recovery option with this. Please post your thoughts and concerns.

 

[F A N G]

Wait why does the grenade blow up?

 

[Blacknight99923]

the grenade blows up because its on a 4 second timer, however I think you knew that, can you specify what your trying to ask?

 

[F A N G]

I see now.

At first I thought you were using the nikita to set off the nade.

I get that part now, it just seemed like it wouldn't blow up in time, but it seems to work fine in the video.

So this looks like it has potential, however someone should see how high you have to be for this to work.

The only other problem I can think of is some projectile character (Pit?) blowing up your nade after you toss it. If you try and nikita without a nade, you're dead...

 

[Blacknight99923]

I see now.

At first I thought you were using the nikita to set off the nade.

I get that part now, it just seemed like it wouldn't blow up in time, but it seems to work fine in the video.

So this looks like it has potential, however someone should see how high you have to be for this to work.

The only other problem I can think of is some projectile character (Pit?) blowing up your nade after you toss it. If you try and nikita without a nade, you're dead...

if pit did blow it up after you tossed it theres a good chance it'd hit you as well. In the event it does and it doesn't blow you up to you have a valid concern you are dead LOL.

However if I may, there are almost no projectiles in the game that have quite the flexibility of pits arrow. I can only presently see pit at best being the only character who could really practically do that, even then they'd have to know the timing to aim their arrows correctly.

 

[F A N G]

It's certainly much safer than C4 recovery. That was the only thing I could find.

Nice idea, thanks for showing us. I'm definitely gonna use this

 

[Blacknight99923]

It's certainly much safer than C4 recovery. That was the only thing I could find.

Nice idea, thanks for showing us. I'm definitely gonna use this

No problem, all I ask is that you post any further uses you find for this technique on the snake boards, do you have aim by any chance?

 

[F A N G]

I do, I'll put it in my contacts here.

I'll do my best to find uses for this and at least try it in a match a few times

 

[GanonCanon]

I'm pretty sure snake's nades have a 3 second timer, and if an opponent can just pick off the nade you've lost a stock. atleast with c4 the most someone can do is hit you while you're dropping it/ before you detonate it, which give you back your cypher. but it does seem applicable at high percents if your c4 is fresh.

 

[Blacknight99923]

how are they gonna get the nade though?

if your a certain distance away they can't get to it in time.

If they footstool your C4 recovery your on your way to losing your stock, have you seen esam vs ally?

 

[F A N G]

Well the nade explodes one-onethousand, two-onethousand, three-onethousand, FOUR. So it could go either way

Pick off as in shoot? Blacknight addressed that. If you mean grabbed, that's pretty dangerous...

They could footstool you out of both of them, but the nikita makes it harder with this method

 

[Blacknight99923]

the only way to safely get rid of the nade for them is to instant throw it away from snake hypothetically.

but most characters simply just don't have the mobility to go that far off stage against snake and then TIME the instant throw. There is also the risk if it blows up on them they'll miss the tech while trying to do it because they've already press shield to instant throw and kill themselves.

Every other method I can think of takes to long to do, or blows the grenade on both characters.



That being said this method of recovery is by no means perfect, and I implore all of you to try it out in practice and decide what you do with this knowledge accordingly

 

[Judo777]

Well the nade explodes one-onethousand, two-onethousand, three-onethousand, FOUR. So it could go either way

Pick off as in shoot? Blacknight addressed that. If you mean grabbed, that's pretty dangerous...

They could footstool you out of both of them, but the nikita makes it harder with this method

Haha thats not how you count off using thousands for seconds. The entire phrase one-onethousand is 1 second lol. Just cause you can say 4 doesn't mean its 4 seconds (ideally). Otherwise "ONE" would be 1 second lol.

 

[Underload]

Advantages:
*Two moving hitboxes for potential protection vs. 1 (Cypher and Nikita vs. Cypher)
- The Nikita hitbox can easily be directed however you please before the nade blows you up (?)
*Less knockback upon explosion
*Less damage upon explosion (12% vs. 17%)

Disadvantages:
*Takes longer to implement during a match(?)

(?) - needs to be tested

 

[False]

This new method needs to be started so high up in the air that its worth the attempt to just go for the stage. I've tried this before quite a while ago its not worth it.

 

[Attila_]

How often is c4 recovery needed that high up? Not to mention you're vulnerable for ages... Don't think this will be very useful... Maybe very situationally...

 

[Blacknight99923]

I don't see why this needs to be started all THAT high up ( like stage level iirc)

Your percent is also important to factor in my opinion, if your at 150% C4ing from almost anywhere fresh has a risk of killing yourself outside of teching, and at that point a tech is generally telegraphed and force you to just simply reset the situation. Where as a nade doesn't.

I don't think this is going to replace C4 recoveries by any means though simply because you have to use your cipher AFTER the nade which makes performing a C4 recovery easier.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Look at the video. The time 2p snake starts this, then finally gets hit, he has dropped a height roughly that of battlefield from top platform to bottom of the underside of the stage. False is right in that if you have to fall that far in the first place, you can make an attempt to get to the stage.

I certainly think its worth an attempt at higher percents well above 150% where if you get too far away, you will die to C4.

 

[Underload]

I don't think you can scale that zoomed out Duelist match to Battlefield or w/e. Somebody needs to go test this for an objective answer, not just conjecture and theorycraft. Any volunteers?

 

[Attila_]

out of interest, since when is taking over 3 seconds to recover at stage level not gimpable?

 

[Blacknight99923]

we do that when we C4 recover LOL



But you are correct it is gimpable.

This needs objective testing, we need to find out whats its potential, realistic uses are, and use them efficiently.

Also as an afterthought instead of the nikita we could also simply use the recovery aspect such as just grenade to upB to airdodge catch the grenade. Even if implementing the nikita isn't realistic, figuring out efficient ways to recover with grenades should also be a development (even if they don't use this method).

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Alot of good snake players have already incorporated this recovery into their game. It's a good mixup when they are not expecting it, and can catch them offguard, but it's still not as safe as the conventional recovery, and as such should not replace that. Instead, this should be used as a mixup, and only at a very high damage after getting hit high enough.

 

[F A N G]

Haha thats not how you count off using thousands for seconds. The entire phrase one-onethousand is 1 second lol. Just cause you can say 4 doesn't mean its 4 seconds (ideally). Otherwise "ONE" would be 1 second lol.

So it's a 3 second fuse, and it explodes as the 4th second starts. I didn't say it was a 4 second fuse, just that it could be referred to either way. It doesn't go off during the 3 seconds either.

 

[Attila_]

Alot of good snake players have already incorporated this recovery into their game. It's a good mixup when they are not expecting it, and can catch them offguard, but it's still not as safe as the conventional recovery, and as such should not replace that. Instead, this should be used as a mixup, and only at a very high damage after getting hit high enough.

any videos of this being done?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

out of interest, since when is taking over 3 seconds to recover at stage level not gimpable?

we do that when we C4 recover LOL
But you are correct it is gimpable.

This needs objective testing, we need to find out whats its potential, realistic uses are, and use them efficiently.

Also as an afterthought instead of the nikita we could also simply use the recovery aspect such as just grenade to upB to airdodge catch the grenade. Even if implementing the nikita isn't realistic, figuring out efficient ways to recover with grenades should also be a development (even if they don't use this method).

Alot of good snake players have already incorporated this recovery into their game. It's a good mixup when they are not expecting it, and can catch them offguard, but it's still not as safe as the conventional recovery, and as such should not replace that. Instead, this should be used as a mixup, and only at a very high damage after getting hit high enough.

So it's a 3 second fuse, and it explodes as the 4th second starts. I didn't say it was a 4 second fuse, just that it could be referred to either way. It doesn't go off during the 3 seconds either.

any videos of this being done?

VVVVV

I don't think you can scale that zoomed out Duelist match to Battlefield or w/e. Somebody needs to go test this for an objective answer, not just conjecture and theorycraft. Any volunteers?

^^^^^
We reject your suggestion and continue the threadcrafting games. Besides, this idea seems to have been picked apart pretty badly anyway.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I do volunteer though!!!

 

[etecoon]

in all honesty...this topic is why 90% of snake's(including mine) are bad. too caught up in random technical gimmicks that have extremely minimal practical application

 

[Blacknight99923]

its true it doesn't really help you in the long run, but its practicing technical s in my opinion doesn't make you bad, its relying on gimmicks instead of your fundamental core skills.

 

[F A N G]

I tried it....

You have to be waay to high up for this to work

If you soft toss the nade when you're about as high as the top platform on BF, the nade explodes right under the stage. If you soft toss it when you are at about the middle platform, the nade explodes under Battlefield. It's completely offscreen, but the explosion still happens.

In other words, you might as well go for the stage. Especially since this technique requires the use of Cypher, you should just recover high.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The whole purpose of this thread is to give us something to talk about. I do not know about anyone else.
@Etecoon: Start playing Snake again.

The time 2p snake starts this, then finally gets hit, he has dropped a height roughly that of battlefield from top platform to bottom of the underside of the stage.

I don't think you can scale that zoomed out Duelist match to Battlefield or w/e. Somebody needs to go test this for an objective answer, not just conjecture and theorycraft.

I tried it....
You have to be waay to high up for this to work
If you soft toss the nade when you're about as high as the top platform on BF, the nade explodes right under the stage.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

any videos of this being done?

I've seen Ally and HRNUT doing this, though not with the nikita, but same basic idea.

HRNUT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0DYnq7tpxw&feature=player_detailpage#t=155s

Ally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn_ASMWg-Uw&feature=player_detailpage#t=134s

 

[F A N G]

I guess if you're going to do it that way, I guess you don't need the cypher.

And after seeing that, I'm actually somewhat confused. What's the point of using the cypher anyway?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

If you do not have a second jump left, you can uses the cypher instead of jumping.

 

[Blacknight99923]

after testing you can do this at about the hieght of teh SV Platform.

I actually did this in a match yesterday when a D3 CG Fthrow'd me, it could be used there I guess but yeah, its not practical to just use in a match whenever you want,

 

[F A N G]

If you do not have a second jump left, you can uses the cypher instead of jumping.

Why even cypher/jump? The grenade will still explode low, you might as well take out the nikita right away and aim?

 

[Attila_]

I've seen Ally and HRNUT doing this, though not with the nikita, but same basic idea.

HRNUT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0DYnq7tpxw&feature=player_detailpage#t=155s

Ally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn_ASMWg-Uw&feature=player_detailpage#t=134s

HRNUT did it very well. no nikita though; if he wanted to that he wouldve had to cypher up to mk, resulting in being sl-ed. but the nade recovery option seems very good when caught in such a situation at c4 death percents.

 

[Yung Mei]

i skimmed through the thread, has anyone mentioned the mexican player Muhsoce? AFAIK, he's been doing this **** for a while now :V

 

[Blacknight99923]

it might be possible to nikita after the jump as well, however in duelist when you use your jump you have to cipher, so I guess I didn't think about jumping.

However even if we decide to never use the nikita, recovering with nades is potentially a great development such as what Hrnut did.

And props to HRnut being ****

And Hrnut used his cipher at the end as well or else he woulda died


and I Haven't really heard of any mexican players besides TKD/ the peopel who come to socal tournaments sometimes. :/

 

[Yumewomiteru]

i skimmed through the thread, has anyone mentioned the mexican player Muhsoce? AFAIK, he's been doing this **** for a while now :V

All NE snakes (including me) have known about this and have done this for a while. Its nothing new.

See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltoP3YnzXPQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=120s

 

[Mike2]

I've seen Ally and HRNUT doing this, though not with the nikita, but same basic idea.

HRNUT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0DYnq7tpxw&feature=player_detailpage#t=155s

Ally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn_ASMWg-Uw&feature=player_detailpage#t=134s

Any reason why they throw two nades instead of just one?