Possible new gimp against falcos?

[Teczer0]

I've been trying this edgeguard for a while I have no idea if anyone posted about it the search function died on me giving me some weird error message .

Anyway at low percentages if you f-throw or b-throw falco off the stage I sorta thought of an edgeguard.

If you follow your throw at a low percentage jump (usually with b-throw) or fast fall(Usually with f-throw) and try to shine them and the falco doesn't jump out and tries to sweetspot the edge through their double jump alone they will get hit by the shine and die.

If they do jump out and away you jump out of the shine and do a b-air out of it jumping back onto the stage. If the falco illusions they get hit by the b-air and is forced to fire. Then you can just WD off the stage and shine spike them really fast.

If they decide to jump away and fire you just l-cancel you b-air grab the ledge and either b-air a high recovery then shine or shine if they go straight for the edge.

What are your thoughts on this? I tried it and have relatively good success at pretty low percentages (say less than 30).

Vid of me attempting it around and messing up a bit 1:58 ish:

Tec0 vs Bass.

Discuss?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lots of people try easy shinespike gimps on every character at low %....

 

[Teczer0]

lots of people try easy shinespike gimps on every character at low %....

Thats not my point .

Im trying to show a possible edgeguard vs falco kinda like how marth does his edgeguard against spacies.

Obviously people go for shine spike the fact that shine spiking is in my description for the edgeguard shouldn't make it invalid. I'm trying to explain a systematic way to edgeguard falco. Not omg pray for this hope for your opponent to react in a certain way.

Similar to what m2k does with marth. Thats like saying everyone goes for gimps against spacies with marth so we shouldn't talk about it. It changed how some play marth and forces a change in how we play spacies. His is also very systematic and does the same thing over and over. Same thing in my scenario.

 

[DanteFox]

could you describe exactly what it is m2k does? I'm kind of clueless to that little detail

 

[Teczer0]

could you describe exactly what it is m2k does? I'm kind of clueless to that little detail

The spacie edgeguard he does to spacies?

He basically covers nearly every single option you can recover because its very predictable with very few exceptions.

When he is on the stage and he throws a spacie off the stage he does one of two things.

He waits for the fire to reach the edge and counters. After the counter hits he jumps off the stage and does a f-air then up-bs and edgehogs the spacie.

If the spacie has tries to illusion on the the edge or stage he jabs the illusion and jumps off and f-air or counters again depending on the situation.

In the chance they go above you he turns grabs you throws you and places you in the same exact situation.

In general it basically takes into account all of the possible options they have and stops it by doing one of those things.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

no what im saying is, every fox has done a fthrow/bthrow to shinespike/other gimp. in fact, ive recently seen eggz use this exact setup.

 

[GOTM]

thats not his point. hes trying to create something to do that will cover all possible options of falcos recovery every time. (at least at low %'s)

i kind of like this idea. imma try it out and see if it works well. ill let ya know!

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

falco can wall jump into airdodge / over B / delayed over B to mess up timing, immediatly air dodge, shine (wait) and do an aerial, shine (wait) and up B to sweetspot. lots of ways to get around fthrow / bthrow gimps. freaking lunin...

 

[DanteFox]

so I guess what we're gonna try to do is think up hypothetical solutions, test them on CP's then present them in this thread so everyone else can think of a way to counter *that* solution, etc. until we come up with a 3 move checkmate of sorts, where if you get grabbed near the edge, bam, that's it your dead (kinda like the wobble).
Sounds good to me!

Well I think we all know what to do when a falco is below the horizontal surface of the level. You either edgehog or wait with a downsmash.

But what about when they're level with or above the horizontal plane of the stage?

 

[Teczer0]

falco can wall jump into airdodge / over B / delayed over B to mess up timing, immediatly air dodge, shine (wait) and do an aerial, shine (wait) and up B to sweetspot. lots of ways to get around fthrow / bthrow gimps. freaking lunin...

If falco decides to try and wall jump right out of the f-throw/b-throw the shine hits them because you run off and shine and itll end up a bit in front of falco.

If he airdodges then i think he would die, if not the b-air should make him forced into a position to where he is forced to fire.

The only thing feasible that could allow falco to survive possibly is to shine and stall it but then you place your self in a position where your walljump is VERY noticeable since it'll take some time to reach the wall with your double jump out of your shine that you stalled with.

Otherwise your doing a fire which fox can quickly shine since its so close to the stage.

Also since Falco's fire doesn't damage you as he charges its less of a reason to be scared.

Also because fox's shine is in between the stage and falco there is no chance to tech.

Btw you have to do this pretty quickly like as soon as your throw ends you run off.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so I guess what we're gonna try to do is think up hypothetical solutions, test them on CP's then present them in this thread so everyone else can think of a way to counter *that* solution, etc. until we come up with a 3 move checkmate of sorts, where if you get grabbed near the edge, bam, that's it your dead (kinda like the wobble).
Sounds good to me!

Well I think we all know what to do when a falco is below the horizontal surface of the level. You either edgehog or wait with a downsmash.

But what about when they're level with or above the horizontal plane of the stage?

predict where they are going and shine. one shine while falco is in the air = death. or to be a little safer, throw them off, if they come with a jump dsmash, if they use sideb or upb just jump and nair them. if they are ever below the stage drop down and shinespike. its a free stock.

 

[SCOTU]

Falco can also jump back w/ a dair, and you're boned.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

If falco decides to try and wall jump right out of the f-throw/b-throw the shine hits them because you run off and shine and itll end up a bit in front of falco.

If he airdodges then i think he would die, if not the b-air should make him forced into a position to where he is forced to fire.

The only thing feasible that could allow falco to survive possibly is to shine and stall it but then you place your self in a position where your walljump is VERY noticeable since it'll take some time to reach the wall with your double jump out of your shine that you stalled with.

Otherwise your doing a fire which fox can quickly shine since its so close to the stage.

Also since Falco's fire doesn't damage you as he charges its less of a reason to be scared.

Also because fox's shine is in between the stage and falco there is no chance to tech.

Btw you have to do this pretty quickly like as soon as your throw ends you run off.

ionno lunin has tried many times to gimp me like this and he only gets me if i accidentally DI away. i have a habit of DIing towards now and he hasn't gimped me since.

the thing with walljump is that it gives invincibility frames. i can chose to walljump or not and over B and many times foxes who attempt to gimp me get meteored.

if falco air dodges towards the stage, there is no way falco will die. falco will end up behind fox unless the fox is expecting the air dodge (this is where it becomes a guessing game). if you shine near ledge level and JC into bair, your bair will be wayyyy too high to hit falco. plus falco's air dodging, falco doesn't get hit when he's air dodging >_>

the main problem i see with what you're trying to do is fox's throws have enough afterlag for falco to do alot of stuff. especially if falco DIs towards the stage, falco can use his second jump and sweetspot with up B before fox can get down there to shine.

i'm not sure if what i'm saying is true framewise, i'm just speaking from experience. i haven't been throw -> gimped in a veryyy long time.

 

[AznLanceLord]

You know mew2king jabs and then he reverses up-b onto the stage against falco sometimes.

Ok Sorry this is a fox thread.

 

[Teczer0]

ionno lunin has tried many times to gimp me like this and he only gets me if i accidentally DI away. i have a habit of DIing towards now and he hasn't gimped me since.

the thing with walljump is that it gives invincibility frames. i can chose to walljump or not and over B and many times foxes who attempt to gimp me get meteored.

if falco air dodges towards the stage, there is no way falco will die. falco will end up behind fox unless the fox is expecting the air dodge (this is where it becomes a guessing game). if you shine near ledge level and JC into bair, your bair will be wayyyy too high to hit falco. plus falco's air dodging, falco doesn't get hit when he's air dodging >_>

the main problem i see with what you're trying to do is fox's throws have enough afterlag for falco to do alot of stuff. especially if falco DIs towards the stage, falco can use his second jump and sweetspot with up B before fox can get down there to shine.

i'm not sure if what i'm saying is true framewise, i'm just speaking from experience. i haven't been throw -> gimped in a veryyy long time.

Well this is what I wanted I suppose lol some arguement LOL.

Anyway I'm fairly sure you can as long as you do it pretty close to the edge of the stage as you f-throw.

I tried to air dodge with falco right after being f-throwed and you can't reach the stage.

The thing about this is that it covers the option to jump towards the stage because your in between falco and the stage DIing the throw doesn't seem to help all that much it still seems to place you in the same situation. The best would be to DI away so you might not get shined maybe at higher percents but then the b-air out of the shine should barely hit you and you fall and forced to fire.

I mean if someone else wants to try it they are free to. If it proves to be useful I think fox can easily get a kill off of a thunder combo that drags the opponent to the edge of the stage.

Fox does have enough time if you mess it up you will probably stay on the stage.

If its any consolation I was able to pull this off on Reik and Bass two known falcos at least in my state. It worked in all the situations.

One time one of them tried to wall jump into the stage and got shined.

So next time he tried to illusion into the stage so the b-air hit him and then i shined him using WDing off the stage.

Etc.

Scotu - yea i guess he could D-air but then you both die. It might not be as good as m2k's version but its something i wantd to share.

 

[Waka_Waka_do_do_yea]

Scotu - yea i guess he could D-air but then you both die. It might not be as good as m2k's version but its something i wantd to share.

If everything else results in death, I'd go with this one as a falco. I guess some mind games would be good here, fake a shine and let him suicide?

Can't find anything about stunlag after throws

 

[Teczer0]

Well I had it work on players relatively at my skill level or higher.

Please by all means try it randomly then comment more.

 

[mikeHAZE]

i do something similar, just backthrow, and wait a second, then immidatly drop off and do a jump+ nair, most of the time they'll hit you, falling strait down (works with most aerials)


i can't find an exact replication of what i'm talking about, but this is close enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pFSzEH0eKc

3:41

 

[Teczer0]

Mike - That sounds really similar >_> lol good to know i at least now dont look like a total nub LOL.

 

[lain]

scotu's talking about jumping ONTO the stage with a rising dair.

if you go fast enough on the stage and falco's coming back with a rising dair, you get spiked and yes, you are boned.

or falco can just you know, come up with a rising dair and you can wait on the stage and get hit with dair and then combo'd.

sounds feasible sometimes though if they forget.

 

[mikeHAZE]

well if you want to see what their going to do, you can always throw them back, then just wait on the stage.

if they do the dair, then you know just to wait on the edge for them and maybe ftilt or upsmash (exchange hits with it), or if they side be, just do an uptilt

 

[Teczer0]

I dont think you can d-air onto the stage.

That would hurt the idea of the combo but I'm fairly sure you can't.

 

[mikeHAZE]

go watch the video mango made on me lol

heres the link:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1LIruLIioM

2:00

 

[HAT]

They can always SDI/DI the shine and tech off a wall.

I don't think, at least in space animal play, that there's a systematic way to eliminate most options after a f-throw/b-throw. There's just too many possibilities. Just wait for your opponent to do something and react...

 

[Brookman]

forward/back throw turn around up tilt. 'nuff said.

 

[SCOTU]

scotu's talking about jumping ONTO the stage with a rising dair.

if you go fast enough on the stage and falco's coming back with a rising dair, you get spiked and yes, you are boned.

Yeah, from a bthrow, falco can easily make it back to the stage w/ a dair. Even if he can't, he can jump back towards the stage w/ a dair, and then make it back to the stage before you can.

the first is pretty safe for falco to do. The second requires you to jump out after him.

 

[Brookman]

I like back throw turn around charge f/up smash. That's Spawn ****.

 

[Overswarm]

If Falco merely falls (or fast falls if the Fox chases him without jumping), he can go below Fox's range of the ledge. All he has to do is go down far enough to where Fox can't merely jump to grab the edge, and Fox will have to retreat.

At this point, the Falco can jump, wall jump, then air dodge/over-b/fire to get back on the stage.

Falco can also jump and up+b right next to the wall and make himself "open" to be shinespiked, and then just wall-jump-tech the shine by holding up and hitting L when he hits the wall. He can then over-b onto the stage and it not only has a good chance of spiking the Fox, but it also allows him to grab the edge and edgeguard a Fox that has gone below the stage.


There is no "all bases covered" with Fox.

If you notice M2K's marth strategies, you should also notice that all of his attacks are not focused on knockback, but rather using the fast fallers vertical drop speed against them. When you shine someone, you give them the ability to tech at 0%. With Marth's jab, forward-air, over-b and up-b, the enemy cannot tech at low % and thus can only fall to their deaths. Most of them are also used to knock the enemy AWAY from the stage so it doesn't even matter what percent they are.

The closest thing to an "all bases covered" with Fox is waiting for them to over-b or up-b and then shining them out of that attack, as they will generally be sent away from the stage.

That isn't to say the situation you described in the beginning and all of the ideas in it are ineffective, as they will help you greatly if you master them, but they aren't fool proof.

 

[lain]

If Falco merely falls (or fast falls if the Fox chases him without jumping), he can go below Fox's range of the ledge. All he has to do is go down far enough to where Fox can't merely jump to grab the edge, and Fox will have to retreat.

Falco can't go anywhere the Fox can't go. Fox's double jump + upb recovery is way better then falco's. going simply "out of range to where fox can't double jump to make it back to the ledge" just isn't enough. a fox will definitely go far enough down to get you and then just up+b recover. it's not that big of a hassle

Falco can also jump and up+b right next to the wall and make himself "open" to be shinespiked, and then just wall-jump-tech the shine by holding up and hitting L when he hits the wall. He can then over-b onto the stage and it not only has a good chance of spiking the Fox, but it also allows him to grab the edge and edgeguard a Fox that has gone below the stage.

falco jumping and up+bing right in fox's face isn't exactly a smart idea, you're banking on the fact that the fox will shine spike him towards the stage wall, and even though you're next to it you can still (and probably will) be hit away from it if the fox isn't sloppy, since fox is basically in front of falco anyways, and would just walk or run off to shinespike.



but yeah, the jumping back up wth a dair isn't exactly a hard strategy. in fact, most falcos will do this to protect against such an edgegaurd. since it has fantastic priority, and if the fox is dumb enough to run off the stage pre-emptively, they will be spiked

 

[Eggm]

Jump back out of back air range forward b stall to sweet spot on the ledge, or up + b.

 

[Overswarm]

Falco can't go anywhere the Fox can't go. Fox's double jump + upb recovery is way better then falco's. going simply "out of range to where fox can't double jump to make it back to the ledge" just isn't enough. a fox will definitely go far enough down to get you and then just up+b recover. it's not that big of a hassle

Any Fox that goes far enough down to need to up+B to recover should, and will, be killed by any good Falco. If the Fox just runs off and fast falls, the Falco doesn't even need to wall-jump; he can just jump and up+b WITH the Fox and not need to worry about being edgeguarded.

falco jumping and up+bing right in fox's face isn't exactly a smart idea, you're banking on the fact that the fox will shine spike him towards the stage wall, and even though you're next to it you can still (and probably will) be hit away from it if the fox isn't sloppy, since fox is basically in front of falco anyways, and would just walk or run off to shinespike.

Assuming that the Falco is being edgeguarded on the right side, all Falco needs to do to ensure his ability to tech off the wall is to hit left when he is shine spiked so that he goes in the direction of the wall. Regardless, you don't even need to do that. Simply hugging the wall with your up+B puts you close enough to tech when you are hit with the shine spike.

but yeah, the jumping back up wth a dair isn't exactly a hard strategy. in fact, most falcos will do this to protect against such an edgegaurd. since it has fantastic priority, and if the fox is dumb enough to run off the stage pre-emptively, they will be spiked

Which is why any Fox willing to go as lower than their second jump can save them should, and will, be killed by a good Falco.


There's always a counter that Falco can do simply by observing and reacting to the Fox; there is no unbeatable edgeguard that Fox has in this matchup.

 

[Brookman]

There's always a counter that Falco can do simply by observing and reacting to the Fox; there is no unbeatable edgeguard that Fox has in this matchup.

While it is true that there isn't a single way to limit/control Falco's recovery Fox still has just about a billion options for destroying anything falco does.

In my opinion, you SHOULD go for a shine spike, don't think about it and just go. At least once, ESPECIALLY at low percents. It just really ****s with the person you're playing, whether you get it or not. Just going for the shine spike will help you control them off the edge because they'll to be afraid of the shine spike.

Otherwise, it's best to either stay on the stage or take the ledge. up tilt/forward tilt go through up/side b, down smash, forward smash, dash attack, neutral air, back air, down air...maybe even rapid kicks. Tap a, if you can time it, sets up for shine spikes very nicely...I only fux with that in friendly matches though...

on the edge you can back air/shine/nair or simply edge hog if they ride the stage to the edge.

at low percents an uptilt will combo into a shine spike if you catch them in their up/forward b. This works when they double jump back and are level with you. If they double jump back and try to go to the edge you can wavedash/short hop on to the edge for a free kill. If they go above the up tilt you recover in time to meet them before they land.

If you predict a double jump to the edge downsmash will eat them, down air works nicely in this case as well.

When they're in a position to sweet spot the edge from above you can forward smash early and catch them while you're leg is hanging off the stage, but if they decide to just go up/to the stage then you let them back on

There's tons of other **** that I can't really think of atm..


When you back throw you can turn and charge up smash, if they double jump back into illusion you can catch them so long as they don't sweet spot.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

actually, cant you throw off, fsmash towards the ledge, and if you wiff (cause they didnt DJ) edge guard the sideb/upb because of the low lag after the fsmash?

 

[Overswarm]

actually, cant you throw off, fsmash towards the ledge, and if you wiff (cause they didnt DJ) edge guard the sideb/upb because of the low lag after the fsmash?

Maybe if the Falco did everything you wanted them to o_O

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Maybe if the Falco did everything you wanted them to o_O

the only way around it is sideb/upb high.

 

[Overswarm]

the only way around it is sideb/upb high.

or cancel, or go below the stage (teching a shinespike if need be), or just go below the stage and jump.

If you are timing your f-smash, canceling the over-b would work wonders.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

overswarm... if a falco ever goes below the stage and i am right there... they will die. ala KDJ i will just ff down and shinespike. only stage a wall tech would be possible is yoshi story. and fsmash has a giant hitbox time, as well as hitting in a nice space near/under the edge, which is why i said that. the fsmash takes care of every fast option, but leaves things like upb from below and sideb above. luckily fsmash has low lag, so you can punish those easily. essentially, you are playing like marth, removing all options but upb and then gimping the upb. the only option that could work looks like jumping straight back with a dair/nair before the fsmash starts, and maybe DIing out of fsmash range and upb at fox (the timing should be close so that fsmash is over, but still in lag. might not work, havent tested). if you sideb at fox or sweetspot you will get hit, as well as if you try to jump to the edge.

 

[Overswarm]

overswarm... if a falco ever goes below the stage and i am right there... they will die. ala KDJ i will just ff down and shinespike. only stage a wall tech would be possible is yoshi story. and fsmash has a giant hitbox time, as well as hitting in a nice space near/under the edge, which is why i said that. the fsmash takes care of every fast option, but leaves things like upb from below and sideb above. luckily fsmash has low lag, so you can punish those easily. essentially, you are playing like marth, removing all options but upb and then gimping the upb. the only option that could work looks like jumping straight back with a dair/nair before the fsmash starts, and maybe DIing out of fsmash range and upb at fox (the timing should be close so that fsmash is over, but still in lag. might not work, havent tested). if you sideb at fox or sweetspot you will get hit, as well as if you try to jump to the edge.

I suggest you show this working at high level play in some fashion, otherwise I can't really grasp the options you are saying, I'm afraid. Preferrably through tournament results by someone using this option, but with the lack of time before Brawl that is unreasonable. Do you have any videos showing this work against good Falco's? I've seen a throw to forward smash work maybe... once a match, at most, in an occasional YouTube video. Never more, and never in tournament play. I would like to see it though, as it would be special.

I am very skeptical of your reasoning though, as not only do I know that Falco has multiple options against it, but I've done them myself during my stint when I played Falco competitively. The forward smash edgeguard is something routinely done by my 9 year old cousin Kaylin when she is forced to play Smash brothers with her brother, and it doesn't evolve much further from there.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

fsmash is a start up. i never said spam it. here i happened on this match before you posted this, its on CF but its essentially the same thing.

KDJ vs Jiano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWPBNJ_FG6Q&sdig=1
1:23 and 2:10

 

[ArcNatural]

They could just stall with the shine then come up with anything, this is also avoidable by doing the doublejump airdodge onto the stage. Granted the airdodge can still have them in a bad position, but there are other ways around what you suggested than just upB and overB high.